Author Topic: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald  (Read 9325 times)

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martincisneros

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Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« on: October 28, 2008, 02:32:10 AM »
(A Fictional Selection from The Minister's Restoration)

See the loving power at the heart of things, Isy!" said James to his wife. "Out of evil God has brought good, the best good, and nothing but the good! -- a good ripened through my sin and selfishness and ambition, bringing upon you as well as me disgrace and suffering. The evil in me had to come out and show itself before it could be cleared away! From some people nothing but an earthquake will rouse them from dead sleep. I was one of such! God in his mercy brought on the earthquake to wake me and save me from death.

"Ignorant people go about always asking why God permits evil. We know why! So that we might come to know -- really know! -- what good is like, and therefore what God himself is like. It may be that he could with a Word eliminate evil altogether and cause it to cease. But what would that teach us about good? The Word might make us good like oxen or harmless sheep, but would that be a worthy image of him who was made in the image of God? For a man to cease to be capable of evil, he must cease to be man! What would the goodness be that could not help being good -- that had no choice in the matter, but must be such because it was so made? God chooses to be good, otherwise he would not be God: man must choose to be good, otherwise he cannot be the son of God."

"God is good, isn't he, James!"
"And so good to us! Just think where we each might be if he hadn't shown us ourselves, even in our sin. We might never have known his goodness had it not been for the evil in us."
"Oh, but that was such a hard time! To think that he was with us every step."

"That is how grand the love of the Father of men is, Isy -- that he gives them a share, and that share as necessary as his own, in the making of themselves. Thus, and only thus, by willing -- by choosing -- the good, can they become partakers of the divine nature. All the discipline, all the pain of the world exists for the sake of this -- that we may come to choose the good. God is teaching us to know good and evil in some real degree as they are and not as they seem to the incomplete. So shall we learn to choose the good and refuse the evil. He would make his children see the two things, good and evil, in some measure as they are, and then say whether they will be good children or not. If they fail, and choose the evil, he will take yet harder measures with them, salting them with continually deeper pains and cleansing of the refiner's fire.

"If at last it should prove possible for a created being to see good and evil as they are, and choose the evil, then, and only then, there would, I presume, be nothing left for God but to set his foot upon him and crush him as we might a noxious insect.

"But God is deeper in us than our own life. Yea, God's life is the very center and creative cause of that life which we call ours. Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death, inasmuch as the creating Good is stronger than the created Evil."

Offline rosered

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 05:49:26 AM »

 
 Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:
 
 this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Offline Tony N

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 03:19:21 PM »

 
 Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:
 
 this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Yes rosered, God meant it for good. I love that story!

God did not just allow the evil to come upon Joseph, He orchestrated it. God made it so that Joseph's brothers would come against him and bring this evil upon him. But why would God do such a thing? So that Joseph could be the saviour of the world back then.

This is so also of God's beloved Son, Jesus. God did not just allow the evil to come upon His Son but He orchestrated it.

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

But why would God do such a thing? So that Jesus could be the Saviour of the world!

You see, God doesn't bring evil just to bring it. It always serves a good purpose. "God is working ALL together for GOOD."

Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline rosered

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 05:15:07 PM »

  wow ! Thanks Tony , for bringing this out more clearly bro ! 

 
  It is for those  who love Him, working all for the good !  :HeartThrob:
 

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2008, 06:41:55 PM »
That's pretty good, thanks.  :thumbsup:
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline CHB

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 08:09:47 PM »
Quote from: Martin
God chooses to be good, otherwise he would not be God: man must choose to be good, otherwise he cannot be the son of God."

I agree with everything Mcdonald said except the above. Man can't choose to do good but he can experience good and evil and learn to know the difference, or consequences of both.

Paul said, it is God working in us both to WILL and to DO of his GOOD pleasure.

CHB

martincisneros

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 08:53:31 PM »
Man can't choose to do good...
Can man choose to do evil?

Offline willieH

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 10:38:22 PM »
Man can't choose to do good...
Can man choose to do evil?

Man "chooses" only what GOD has DECLARED (SAYS) he will choose... (Is 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17)

We are SINNERS (choose evil), because the WORD ...SAYS... we are: (Rom 3:23)  (btw the "ALL", includes unborn humans  ...yet to come = end from beginning) [from ADAM unto the LAST man]

Which was CONCLUDED (decided), by GOD and STATED in HIS WORD: (SAID by Him)(Rom 11:32)

Which means that EVIL is not "allowed" in this life/realm, ...it is proclaimed and ORDAINED to BE... BY the WORD of GOD...   :dontknow:  (...SAID by GOD...)

The WORD of GOD... SAYS Evil exists... so it DOES...

The WORD of GOD... SAYS men will do EVIL... so they DO...

The WORD of GOD... is an ETERNAL entity, ...not FINITE... and is therefore, NOT a FINITE "report" of how Man's history (in time) was or will be  manifest...

The WORD of GOD, ...is an (preceeding TIME) DECLARATION of Man's history... which will be manifest according TO the DECLARATION of those WORDS!

peacE...
willieH     :angelharp:
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 10:50:42 PM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 10:49:01 PM »

 
 Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:
 
 this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Yes rosered, God meant it for good. I love that story!

God did not just allow the evil to come upon Joseph, He orchestrated it. God made it so that Joseph's brothers would come against him and bring this evil upon him. But why would God do such a thing? So that Joseph could be the saviour of the world back then.

This is so also of God's beloved Son, Jesus. God did not just allow the evil to come upon His Son but He orchestrated it.

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

But why would God do such a thing? So that Jesus could be the Saviour of the world!

You see, God doesn't bring evil just to bring it. It always serves a good purpose. "God is working ALL together for GOOD."

Tony

 :goodpost:  EXCELLENT brother Tony!  EXCELLENT:thumbsup:  :Yesss:

peacE...
willieH     :angelharp:

Offline CHB

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 12:44:59 AM »
Man can't choose to do good...
Can man choose to do evil?

Hi Martin,

You ask if man can choose to do evil? Not on his own. We only choose what God has ordained for us to choose.

If no one SEEKS God and it isn't in man to do good, how do we choose it? Rom. 3:12 There is none that doeth good, no not one.    Luke 18:19 None is good, save one, that is God.

CHB



martincisneros

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 12:57:13 AM »
So, sometimes God is evil, sometimes God is good?  Will this always be the case?  And if so, does this mean that you believe in future falls?

Offline Molly

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 01:05:02 AM »
It must be nice not to have to take any responsibility for your actions or your life.

I don't feel that way myself.

martincisneros

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 01:11:32 AM »
It must be nice not to have to take any responsibility for your actions or your life.

I don't feel that way myself.
I'm not really looking for a repeat of the free will hell thread that we've got elsewhere that wound up getting locked.  I'm just asking questions, as they occur to me, of the Predeterminist camp without really having anything that I'm trying to prove or defend.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 01:13:15 AM by martincisneros »

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 12:09:18 PM »
I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 12:15:21 PM by fullarmor2 »
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline willieH

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 09:41:31 PM »
So, sometimes God is evil, sometimes God is good?  Will this always be the case?  And if so, does this mean that you believe in future falls?

The "fall" was intended... and occured in the PHYSICAL where TIME and CORRUPTION are PRESENT...

Once redeemed from the PHYSICAL into the SPIRITUAL... ETERNITY and INCORRUPTION are PRESENT...

Rom 9:17  For the SCRIPTURE SAITH UNTO PHARAOH:  Even for this same PURPOSE have ...I RAISED THEE UP... that I might show MY POWER IN THEE, and that MY NAME might be DECLARED in ALL the Earth.

God SHOWING His POWER in PHARAOH?  yes!  That is what HE SAYS...

PHAROAH is the "POWER" representative of CAPTIVITY...

If there is NO CAPTIVITY, ...there is NO DELIVERANCE from IT...  The

The PHYSICAL
testimony of PHARAOH's ENSLAVEMENT of the PEOPLE of GOD, ...is that even the WORLD's most POWERFUL MAN, cannot deter the SPIRITUAL DELIVERANCE of PEOPLE of GOD... BY HIM!   :boogie:

peacE...
willieH     :angelharp:

Offline CHB

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 01:35:11 AM »

I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by.

This is pretty much the way I see this too. I don't believe the word "free" applies to us.



So, sometimes God is evil, sometimes God is good?  Will this always be the case?  And if so, does this mean that you believe in future falls?

I wouldn't say God is evil, he uses evil to bring about good. If we never experienced evil how would we ever know what good is? Same with light and darkness. We are experiencing all the things that God does in order to make us like him. He is teaching us.

CHB

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 03:07:19 AM »

I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded. 


I think there is a multiple nature to things.  From my perspective, I have done the wrong thing knowing full well I shouldn't do it.  I also know that there were times in my life where I felt what I did was the only thing that I could of done.  And there were times where I did things and didn't believe it was wrong. There are times where I got to a point and then was going "What the F" how did I get here?

This has put me kinds of in the middle of the whole free will thing.  I know God works all things,  but I also know what I have been aware of and I think the supreme realm that God has built, all our choices are accounted for, but within that realm we have "libertys".

Those liberties are what allows us to be a clay pot that constantly resists being formed and one that reliquishes to the glory of knowing what we can become.  Sometimes God wants us to resist, sometimes he lets us decide and sometimes he reveals the wonder of the formation.

I honestly think no matter how certain any one of us is of who we are and who is in control, the truth is not something that we can put into words very well.



Offline FineLinen

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 11:48:30 PM »
The Purpose Of Evil

We must conclude that all the evil we see about us in every horrifying form and in all its vast amount, comes under the same category of part and parcel of the great plan that through sin, corruption, chaos and death, is moving on to holiness, purity, order and life eternal.
 
        Furthermore the final outcome of God's plan, so clearly revealed in Scripture, fully confirms the foregoing view, and in fact irresistibly drives us to that view. All the details, and every particular of the plan in all its length and breadth are not revealed, but the result is revealed; and that result, the final outcome, is, a perfect and absolute triumph for goodness, truth and justice. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall give praise to God"— "The whole creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption"— "All things in heaven and earth shall be gathered together in Christ"— "Death shall be swallowed up in victory"—"There shall be no more anything accursed" and "Every created thing shall praise God." This is the outcome; thank God! it is good enough. To this final result all things are tending. To such a universal victory we are traveling on. We can see it by faith, "afar off,"

"I cannot doubt that good shall fall,
    At last-far off— at last, to all."

        If this is the outcome, then all things, evil included, are to eventuate in good. Evil must be one of God's servants for good, it must eventuate in good, for nothing but good is to be the final result.

Continued HERE

 
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2009, 02:54:05 AM »
I think we do choose to do good or evil ourselves.  However our choices are caused by things we have no control over.   Like our mental health and strength(or lack thereof),  life experiences,  genetics, etc... ,    but God knew about all these things beforehand,   and so on the other hand I still think that God is in control regarding how and why we make choices in life.  In other words,   in God's plan,  he allowed certain things  to influence us and he knew how we would respond before we responded.   Its pretty cool actually!  God is able to control everything,  but he does it in a way in which he still allows us to be in control of our choices. So we are free, but only within the confines of the life circumstance we are each trapped in and heavily influenced by. 

Good stuff, fa.

Molly, you're right too of course IMO. We have to have something to do with our decisions but I like what fa says.  I believe we make decisions based on the choices we are given. The choices we are given are mostly nothing of our own doing, some are of course because they come from decisions we made, but most are not.

By the way, George MacDonald was key in leading me to the truth of UR. I have most all his unedited works, collecting dust I'm ashamed to say but, like old friends, still there waiting for me.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2009, 03:04:30 AM »
Good posts today FL and cp  :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Gilbert

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2009, 06:18:48 AM »

 
 Thanks Martin , Therefore is the Life in us stronger than the Death !!  :HeartThrob:
 
 this story sort of  reminds me of   Joseph and His brothers selling him to Egypt
   GOD  meant it for  good  :icon_flower:

Yes rosered, God meant it for good. I love that story!

God did not just allow the evil to come upon Joseph, He orchestrated it. God made it so that Joseph's brothers would come against him and bring this evil upon him. But why would God do such a thing? So that Joseph could be the saviour of the world back then.

This is so also of God's beloved Son, Jesus. God did not just allow the evil to come upon His Son but He orchestrated it.

Act 2:23 This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate,

But why would God do such a thing? So that Jesus could be the Saviour of the world!

You see, God doesn't bring evil just to bring it. It always serves a good purpose. "God is working ALL together for GOOD."

Tony

Whew!
Your accusation here against God is utterly stunning.
Evidently, your god commits evil with the justification that the ends justify the means.

Now, let me get this straight:
Jesus is the mirror image of God, right?
Therefore, whoever wishes to identify the true nature and being of God, only has to look at Jesus, right?
After all, the Bible says that Jesus is " ... the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person".
And, again it says: "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

Ummm, where in the Bible does it show Jesus participating in any manner with evil?
Does anything that Jesus ever said or did support the idea that He or His Father orchestrated evil?

So, who are we to believe?
Are we to believe your testimony of who the true God is and how He behaves or the testimony of Jesus?
I think it's safer to take the testimony of Jesus.
The testimony of Jesus is in keeping with the scripture saying: "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all".

Pray tell me:
Why would you choose to voluntarily follow after such a schizophrenic god which you have described here?

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 06:32:15 AM »
I understand why you are asking the questions you are. May I suggest that there is a difference between the "evil" that God creates and brings into being for the ultimate good, and the "evil" which is indeed darkness and wicked.

In other words, All wickedness and darkness is evil, but not all evil is wicked and dark.

The Hebrew peoples would have understood the words good "tov" and evil "ra", not the way we do today, but as something functional and dysfunctional. Wickedness and darkness could be a part of the dysfunction, but not with God, for as you truthfully pointed out, in him there is no darkness at all.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Gilbert

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 07:46:39 AM »
I understand why you are asking the questions you are. May I suggest that there is a difference between the "evil" that God creates and brings into being for the ultimate good, and the "evil" which is indeed darkness and wicked.

In other words, All wickedness and darkness is evil, but not all evil is wicked and dark.

The Hebrew peoples would have understood the words good "tov" and evil "ra", not the way we do today, but as something functional and dysfunctional. Wickedness and darkness could be a part of the dysfunction, but not with God, for as you truthfully pointed out, in him there is no darkness at all.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Wow!
So, you'll forgive me if I can't thread the idea you gave above through the eye of any scriptural needle.

OK, let's say that again just as a refresher:
"Not all evil is wicked and dark".
Oh, I see.
That's like saying:
Not all poop smells.
And, even if it does, it can make excellent fertilizer.
Not all rotten apples are rotten.
But if you crush 'em an' add a bit of food coloring, you can sell 'em as pure apple juice.

All the same, poop does smell and rotten apples are just that: rotten.

We have Christians today accusing God of every kind of evil. They say that God killed that person or caused that hurricane or gave a disease to someone. Then they happily knit it together and justify all the misery and pain because it all supposedly works for the good.
Some even say that God heaps calamity and disease on people to bring them closer to Himself; they have God acting as an abusive spouse using the demented pretext that one is more likely to appreciate Him when He loves.

Somehow we expect more from humans than God Himself.
Why is it that the evil some accuse God of doing, we would never excuse with our fellow human beings?
Would anyone befriend someone who might purposely harm you one day and embrace you the next?
Would anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 09:55:40 AM by Gilbert »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 08:44:47 AM »
Hi Gilbert,

IIRC you wrote in an other thread you don't believe in UR.
If you do believe in UR then consider this message not written.

Neither I know if you believe in annihilism or ET. I assume the last because thats by far the largest group.
Quote
Would anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?
Old English translations of around 12th century translate "Jesus is Healer" instead of "Jesus is Saviour"
Does a healer ever give up trying to help the sick? I think for human healers the answer is only if medical science has run out of possible cures. So the doctors give it their best shot 'till the very end.
But what about the divine Healer Jesus that isn't hindered by lack of progress in medical science?
His limitless bag of medical tricks sure will have  a cure for every illness (read type of sin)
Do you think this Healer that's not only extremly skilled but also extremely loving will ever give up on His patient? Or even more extreme does the opposite of 'your' human healer that makes sick and then starts curing.
If Jesus casts people in Hell after a failed healing attempt He makes them even more sick as they where.
Just because, and I think you can agree with that, the classic ET hell is worse than any illness I can imagine.
And the extreme pains in hell are a illness in a certain way.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Gilbert

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 09:46:53 AM »
Hi Gilbert,

IIRC you wrote in an other thread you don't believe in UR.
If you do believe in UR then consider this message not written.

Neither I know if you believe in annihilism or ET. I assume the last because thats by far the largest group.
Quote
Would anyone boast of having physician who both creates disease as well as healing them?
Old English translations of around 12th century translate "Jesus is Healer" instead of "Jesus is Saviour"
Does a healer ever give up trying to help the sick? I think for human healers the answer is only if medical science has run out of possible cures. So the doctors give it their best shot 'till the very end.
But what about the divine Healer Jesus that isn't hindered by lack of progress in medical science?
His limitless bag of medical tricks sure will have  a cure for every illness (read type of sin)
Do you think this Healer that's not only extremly skilled but also extremely loving will ever give up on His patient? Or even more extreme does the opposite of 'your' human healer that makes sick and then starts curing.
If Jesus casts people in Hell after a failed healing attempt He makes them even more sick as they where.
Just because, and I think you can agree with that, the classic ET hell is worse than any illness I can imagine.
And the extreme pains in hell are a illness in a certain way.
 :2c:

Hi! 'WhiteWings'
(I really like the name yuh got fer yerself).

Let me first clear up sumthin' 'bout whether I believe in UR 'er not.
There are alot of things that I read and hear from any variety of Christians these days which I don't quite agree with; including many of the ideas behind Universal Reconciliation.
I am not the 'pope' (so to speak) and so I don't have any illusions about possessing the absolute truth about all things; in other words: my current thinking concerning UR could very well be incorrect.
But, for that matter, those who agree with UR here can't claim to be the 'pope' either, right?
So, I try my best to be considerate of those in here who may have views which might differ from my own; and, conversely, I anticipate the same from them.
Strangely enough, so many of my Christian friends over the years have latched themselves on to the thoughts behind UR. There was a time when I was deeply irritated by this; if not offended. But over the years I have 'mellowed out' about this turn of events; quietly resigning to the fact that I can only walk with the light that I have.
What I don't need nor can I tolerate is when someone rudely decides to throw a flashlight down my throat in the interest of revealing their particular brand of teaching or enlightenment to me.
Other than the conversations concerning UR in here, I find myself heartily agreeing and being blessed with the other other discussions and I am very happy about that. I am content to participate with the joy that is common among us as opposed to trying to steal the joy of another simply because I may not agree with them about something.
Most people in here readily testify about how relieved they are to have extricated themselves from the howling teachings of Eternal Torment. On that score, I VERY much am in agreement with them. The general concepts revolving around so-called 'hell and damnation' are absolute falsehoods. In fact, the entire scheme behind the ideas of eternal torment/punishment are ludicrous ... a complete fraud.
So, you see? I evidently have a lot in common with the UR's after all.  :grin:
I too was once acquainted with the 'Gospel of Fear and Torment'; and, as shameful as it is to admit, I too participated in 'Gospel of Fire Insurance' and was telling everyone I knew that they were all going to hell. In fact, I spent the first half of my Christian life preaching the 'Gospel of the Pyromaniac' and unwittingly introduced more people to the knowledge of hell than to Jesus, (so to speak). So. suffice to say: I do have an inkling what people are happily testifying to in here. After all, I myself sadly awakened many to the odor of sulphur and brimstone in times past which to this very day must still haunt them mercilessly.

Now, I don't want to be flooding this Forum with a long read, so I will end things about it here. But I would be happy to share with you about how I extricated myself from the frenzy of these ET'rs and what have you without even knowing anything about UR an' stuff. Jus' ask and I will gladly answer.

Now about your additional comments:

Old English translations of around 12th century translate "Jesus is Healer" instead of "Jesus is Saviour"
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This is a wonderful knowing, ay? Jesus the HEALER. Wonderful!
One day a thought came to me saying: "By my love, I forgive. By my grace I forget!". This is how our Jesus heals us. He speaks to our wounds and injuries; He makes our desolate lands blossom again.

If Jesus casts people in Hell after a failed healing attempt He makes them even more sick as they where. Just because, and I think you can agree with that, the classic ET hell is worse than any illness I can imagine. And the extreme pains in hell are a illness in a certain way.

You will be happy to know that I completely disown the idea that Jesus (or God) somehow casts people into Hell. Such an idea is absolutely false.

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Who is IIRC by the way?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 10:00:06 AM by Gilbert »