Author Topic: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald  (Read 11822 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2009, 06:32:01 PM »
Quote from: Gilbert
Things like: Who is God and what is He like?, Who is Jesus?, What is God's ultimate intention and purpose for His creation?, What happened when we were Born Again?, What is the Kingdom of God? ... and similar items which are so integral to our Christian experience.

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Sure, Gilbert.  Post away. Or start a thread.   I would love to hear anything you have to say on these topics.  We can never get enough of that.

We are encouraged to stay away from certain topics like 'free will' because they seem to result in food fights so you might notice that people are careful how they express certain ideas, but mostly we are able to exchange ideas without too much hair flying.

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2009, 06:41:49 PM »
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.



well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.


If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.


Whats actually missing is the the explanation to the whole limitless God thing.   Certainly we hear "God is absolutely limitless" so then this causes the wrong perspective, so people then have start thinking God programmed a Rape and since He is God it's A OK.   Yeah BOy

Not!!  



The programming metaphor was in relation to how David makes his bed in Sheol, but it doesn't say that God made David's bed.

However, "It is appointed to all men once to die." If it is appointed to man once to die, then David makes his bed in sheol because God determined it. This means that because the scripture says that David did something, does not mean God was not appointing it.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2009, 06:47:10 PM »
The true way to "tie God's hands" is to suggest that God does not have the power to heal unless man first allows it. That puts God in a helpless position to stop the crime he sees.

So either God is helpless to save whoever he wants from sin (even though the Bible says that with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE)
Or, God is indeed powerful enough to save everyone from sin whenever he wants, but chooses not to in the immediate time.

Option A ties his hands.



well, maybe man is a bigger part of this equation than you are giving him credit for.

David says, if I make my bed in hell, you are there.

David doesn't say, if you make my bed in hell, he says if I make my bed in hell.

If God causes man to do something, man will do it.

If God causes me to make my bed in the grave, I will make my bed in the grave.


1 Samuel 2:6
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.


If I program a computer to make a calculation, the COMPUTER will make that calculation, because I have programmed it so.


Whats actually missing is the the explanation to the whole limitless God thing.   Certainly we hear "God is absolutely limitless" so then this causes the wrong perspective, so people then have start thinking God programmed a Rape and since He is God it's A OK.   Yeah BOy

Not!!  



The programming metaphor was in relation to how David makes his bed in Sheol, but it doesn't say that God made David's bed.

However, "It is appointed to all men once to die." If it is appointed to man once to die, then David makes his bed in sheol because God determined it. This means that because the scripture says that David did something, does not mean God was not appointing it.


How is the programmer not morally accountable for the evil his programmed code has performed if God has the power to program it differently?





Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2009, 06:51:33 PM »
I didn't say he was morally accountable. Not only that the metaphor of a programmer is to show that if David makes his bed in sheol it is because God has appointed all men to die. Not sure if you got a chance to look at what I was responding to. I didn't say God programmed people to be evil, nor did I deny it. It simply wasn't my point. My point was how that just because the Bible says that a man does something (like "making their bed in sheol") does not mean the cause is not determined. God determined that all should die, and that is why David makes his bed in sheol.

God doesn't need to force people to do evil things. All he need do is not intervene. All he needs to do is not give them an experience like Saul of Tarsus, being that Saul was a chosen vessel. People already want to sin because of the body of death to which they are slaves. God doesn't need to make people do what they already want to do.

However, that he allows us to do it is clearly evident.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2009, 06:55:38 PM »
Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".



Religion has plenty of these supposed places,  who will be chosen to equip and train us?  The one with the most posts here?



Paul, I would like to officially apply for the job. If all of you will put in writing that you will only interpret and study Scriputure as I tell you to then all should be fine!!!!  :laughing7:

You all are great.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Gilbert

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2009, 06:55:49 PM »
Gilbert,
Do you know of a discussion forum on Sonship?

Hi! Beloved Servant

Well, to tell you the truth, I would be the very LAST person to ask that question.
Why?
Simply because there are so many flavors out there and I dread the idea of trying to help someone to pick an' choose.

Regardless of the fact that I have been intimately acquainted with the 'Sonship Message' (better stated as the "Gospel of the Kingdom" after Acts 28:31 and Matthew 24:14), for an extensive period of time, I have encountered some variations which can only be described as bizarre. So, one has to be very cautious.

You know how Universal Reconciliation teachings are oftentimes confused with universalism and what have you? Well, it seems that the very same thing has occurred with the teachings of 'Sonship'. You just can't assume the correctness of the label anymore.

I first was introduced to the 'Sonship Message' in the early 70's. It's like everything else I suppose; a new refreshing Christian idea rises out of Babylon and a WebSite is born shortly thereafter. People hurry over to dance on it's corpse for awhile ... but when the supposed corpse begins to show some quickening life, people begin to arrive and embrace it ... and then, more often than not, the entire refreshing idea thereafter begins to implode under the weight of soured opposition, confusion and envies.

But this is not to say that the adherents to the 'Sonship Message' (aka: 'Gospel of the Kingdom') are in any way unscriptural. Absolutely not! As a matter of fact, if you can muddle through some of their excesses and grasp the core, the teaching is incredibly wonderful to obtain for oneself. Personally speaking, I have experienced much blessing and enlightenment through the reading of their teachings and also having attended their congregations.



Gilbert

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2009, 07:03:37 PM »
Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".
Religion has plenty of these supposed places,  who will be chosen to equip and train us?  The one with the most posts here?

Hi!

I laughed aloud when reading your comment.
Yeah, I suspected that my opinion and question (to Molly) was said all so wrong.
What I was meaning to ask was if there should be a specific Conference in here to discuss elementary doctrines at length ... where everyone could share their thoughts and we could learn from one another in the process. Like, maybe create a specific subject and wrestle it to the ground sortta' thing.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2009, 07:04:06 PM »
Hi Gilbert,
Thanks. How true. And well said.
I first heard in the early 80s.
We'll have to wait, then, for Him to call us together.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2009, 07:06:05 PM »
I didn't say he was morally accountable. Not only that the metaphor of a programmer is to show that if David makes his bed in sheol it is because God has appointed all men to die. Not sure if you got a chance to look at what I was responding to. I didn't say God programmed people to be evil, nor did I deny it. It simply wasn't my point. My point was how that just because the Bible says that a man does something (like "making their bed in sheol") does not mean the cause is not determined. God determined that all should die, and that is why David makes his bed in sheol.

God doesn't need to force people to do evil things. All he need do is not intervene. All he needs to do is not give them an experience like Saul of Tarsus, being that Saul was a chosen vessel. People already want to sin because of the body of death to which they are slaves. God doesn't need to make people do what they already want to do.

However, that he allows us to do it is clearly evident.

Again, IMO I think this is why these discussions get so confusing, because we are separating God from the creation of His own heart and mind. Can't and should't be done. When it is we get discussions like these.

Seth, you say all God needs to do is not intervene and I think of the saying that all it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing.

I think God is morally accountable just as we are. I really don't like saying God is accountable as it seems disrespectful but I say it with all very due respect.

Do you all see that everything is being worked out IN God, in the Whole as it were?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2009, 07:18:10 PM »
Seth, you said....

The subject is: Why God allows evil. The simple answer: God allows evil because he CHOOSES to allow it.

I would also add that God allows evil because it is a necessary part of the overall plan. We wouldn't and couldn't be who we are if evil did not exist.

Would any agree with this?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2009, 07:19:08 PM »


Quote
Seth, you say all God needs to do is not intervene and I think of the saying that all it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing.

I think God is morally accountable just as we are. I really don't like saying God is accountable as it seems disrespectful but I say it with all very due respect.

Well "morally accountable" is a sort of vague phrase because the word "morally" denotes a standard of good behavior. So what does it mean to be "morally accountable." I think we would need to clear that phrase up a bit so we can understand eachother better.

CP, I don't want to miscommunicate: I am saying hypothetically IF God is not DOING the evil itself, He is still making the choice not to stop it, and that EVEN that choice results in evil being done.

Jesus said if he wanted to, he could call legions of angels to help him out of his capture and impending death. But Jesus chose not to do that.

The result: Evil occurred. Because Jesus made a choice NOT to call down legions of angels, that choice of inaction resulted in continued evil against him until he was dead, which of course the Book of Acts says that what they did was determined before by God to be done.

What I am getting at CP is that even a choice to NOT act is a sovereign choice by a sovereign God which ITSELF carries the consequence of evil occurring.

People mention rape and murder etc, yet it is evident that God COULD send legions of angels to help someone to whom evil is being done, yet God chooses not to do that. The only way someone can deny this is by creating a God in their minds who is as limited as a human, powerless to stop evil, yet wishing he could. That is not a God I believe in. So the hypothetical situation I am presenting is: Even IF God did not do the evil deed, that does not in itself mean that He is not causing evil to occur, even if it was by a choice not to act.



Gilbert

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2009, 07:25:29 PM »
Quote from: Gilbert
Things like: Who is God and what is He like?, Who is Jesus?, What is God's ultimate intention and purpose for His creation?, What happened when we were Born Again?, What is the Kingdom of God? ... and similar items which are so integral to our Christian experience.

Anyways, I was thinking that it might be a good idea to also have a specific conference in this Forum dedicated to equipping and training in righteousness. This would be in keeping with "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Sure, Gilbert.  Post away. Or start a thread.   I would love to hear anything you have to say on these topics.  We can never get enough of that.

We are encouraged to stay away from certain topics like 'free will' because they seem to result in food fights so you might notice that people are careful how they express certain ideas, but mostly we are able to exchange ideas without too much hair flying.

Hi! Molly

Yeah, I have noticed that after reading a multitude of archived Posts here. The o'l free will versus sovereignty debate can become quite heated. Best we stay away from this sort of kindling wood, ay? Nothing to be gained when a marshmellow roast turns out to be an inferno. :grin:
Darn! I guess I should not have been more circumspect with my earlier Post asking about this. I note that I invited some to take it negatively.
I think I will jus' lay low fer a bit an' jus' continue as I have been; commenting on this-an'-that on the fly sortta' thing.
It's difficult for me to scramble through the disjointed Threads an' stuff and I get lost very easily. I guess that's because I'm not familiar with the configuration of this Board; most times I can't even decipher who commented to a Post lastly. But I am learning.  :sigh:



Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2009, 07:26:03 PM »
Seth, you said....

The subject is: Why God allows evil. The simple answer: God allows evil because he CHOOSES to allow it.

I would also add that God allows evil because it is a necessary part of the overall plan. We wouldn't and couldn't be who we are if evil did not exist.

Would any agree with this?

cp

I agree that evil is a necessary part of God's plan. The Prodigal Son shows that. The choice by the father in the parable results in evil, yet good comes when the son has had enough evil and is humbled.


Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning ALL THINGS THAT ARE DONE UNDER HEAVEN: this sore (Hebrew - "ra" EVIL) travail hath God GIVEN to the sons of man to be exercised (Hebrew anah "humbled" or "brought low") therewith.


Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2009, 07:26:12 PM »


Quote
Seth, you say all God needs to do is not intervene and I think of the saying that all it takes for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing.

I think God is morally accountable just as we are. I really don't like saying God is accountable as it seems disrespectful but I say it with all very due respect.

Well "morally accountable" is a sort of vague phrase because the word "morally" denotes a standard of good behavior. So what does it mean to be "morally accountable." I think we would need to clear that phrase up a bit so we can understand eachother better.

CP, I don't want to miscommunicate: I am saying hypothetically IF God is not DOING the evil itself, He is still making the choice not to stop it, and that EVEN that choice results in evil being done.

Jesus said if he wanted to, he could call legions of angels to help him out of his capture and impending death. But Jesus chose not to do that.

The result: Evil occurred. Because Jesus made a choice NOT to call down legions of angels, that choice of inaction resulted in continued evil against him until he was dead, which of course the Book of Acts says that what they did was determined before by God to be done.

What I am getting at CP is that even a choice to NOT act is a sovereign choice by a sovereign God which ITSELF carries the consequence of evil occurring.

People mention rape and murder etc, yet it is evident that God COULD send legions of angels to help someone to whom evil is being done, yet God chooses not to do that. The only way someone can deny this is by creating a God in their minds who is as limited as a human, powerless to stop evil, yet wishing he could. That is not a God I believe in. So the hypothetical situation I am presenting is: Even IF God did not do the evil deed, that does not in itself mean that He is not causing evil to occur, even if it was by a choice not to act.




Seth, not to beat this point to death but do you see God and His creation as only separate entities? Do you see all as happening and being worked out IN Him?

I hear what you are saying about moral responsibilities. Good words.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2009, 07:29:18 PM »
CP, what do you mean by "in Him"

When you say God and His creation as separate, do you mean that creation is God?

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2009, 07:35:27 PM »
CP, as I understand your question so far, I would say that death occurs in Adam and life occurs in Christ. Do I believe that rape or murder occurs in God? That is why I asked what you mean by "in Him." I believe the carnal mind is what causes men to sin. Romans 7 proves that men sin because of slavery to the body of death...which they have been sold into.



Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2009, 07:36:51 PM »
CP, what do you mean by "in Him"

When you say God and His creation as separate, do you mean that creation is God?

Hey Seth, I do not think creation is God. I think God is God, the Whole. I think creation is a product (particles of God for lack of better words) of God. Do you see what I am saying?

Hey, here is something I would also like your thoughts on. If you agree creation is a product of God then would you say what is created by the created is also a product of God?

 cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2009, 07:41:08 PM »
Quote
Hey, here is something I would also like your thoughts on. If you agree creation is a product of God then would you say what is created by the created is also a product of God?

Great question. From my dictionary the word "product" means "a thing or a person that is the result of an action or process." Under THAT condition, I would say that yes, what is created by the created is also a product of God, in that the end result is is according to the action or process by a sovereign God. That is why God says "I create evil."

What we are talking about is causality.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2009, 07:44:03 PM »
CP, as I understand your question so far, I would say that death occurs in Adam and life occurs in Christ. Do I believe that rape or murder occurs in God? That is why I asked what you mean by "in Him." I believe the carnal mind is what causes men to sin. Romans 7 proves that men sin because of slavery to the body of death...which they have been sold into.


Doesn't all this occur IN God though? In human language or another way to put it is.........didn't God think this all up? I mean really. God did 'think' this all up didn't He? And if He did then He knew and knows exactly what is going to happen. I have to believe all of life as we know it was thought up and thought out, every single detail and outcome, by God.

I get the feeling, in some spiritual way, that God is thinking and we are His thoughts. God's thoughts are living things in other words.

Do you believe rape and murder occurs in God? Do you believe the carnal mind occurs in God or is a reality IN God?

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2009, 07:49:11 PM »
Quote
Hey, here is something I would also like your thoughts on. If you agree creation is a product of God then would you say what is created by the created is also a product of God?

Great question. From my dictionary the word "product" means "a thing or a person that is the result of an action or process." Under THAT condition, I would say that yes, what is created by the created is also a product of God, in that the end result is is according to the action or process by a sovereign God. That is why God says "I create evil."

What we are talking about is causality.

Yes, causality, but labeling it like that just takes the fun out of it!!!!  :laughing7:

So you are saying that what the created 'creates' (rapes and murders) are 'products' of God, is this correct?

We are overlapping but I am getting something out of this so I thank you for your patience.

cp

For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2009, 07:50:22 PM »
I think it's all in your perspective. I'm at a place where I see God as nothing but Love. All love comes from Him. He is the source of ALL love. There is no evil in Him. And the evil that is committed here on earth is when mankind turns AWAY from that source of Love. This world is temporary. This isn't our true home. I know people like to say that a lot, and it sounds like a cliche. But it is the way it is. It is truth.

How else do you learn something to it's full extent if you are not FREE to experience it ?? How else would we TRULY understand love if we were not fully familiar with it's contrasting opposite??

Because God KNOWS this life is SHORT, over in the blink of an eye (truly, it is... 70/80 years? God is merciful, what if we were here for thousands of years????? We are not!! We're only here for such a short time. Just enough for each of us to take part. Some are here for much shorter times. Some are here for much longer times. Some suffer far greater than others. But all lives are creating the PICTURE that I believe we ALL will keep in mind for all eternity. The picture of what LOVE is. WHO God is. Once evil (that which is NOT Love) is exhausted, we will never "go there" ever again for all eternity.

I think that we can get tunnel vision and not see the big picture. To only focus on THIS life, you DO get discouraged and you probably DO think God is evil. But if you sit in heavenly places, looking beyond this short LIFE which is temporary, and see what is ETERNAL, see what is being slowly DONE AWAY WITH (all of this corruption, evil, darkness, all this non-love), you realize that God is taking us through this HELL, this LIFE on earth not to punish us. NOT to torture us. NOT TO HURT US, but so that we will LEARN... you cease to see God as a monster and start to see Him as the Loving Father that HE is.

We are here, all of us together, walking these roads... the broad road that leads to destruction, and the narrow road that leads to life. We constantly have both roads before us, running parallel. WE constantly jump back and forth from one road to another. The longer we stay on the path to destruction, the more things we accumulate along the way that will need to be destroyed. Human beings are not destroyed, just the things that need to be burned off of them, (ALL non-love). Sometimes we are DRAGGED onto someone ELSE'S road to destruction. We hurt EACH OTHER. God does not hurt us. WE HURT EACH OTHER. We are here to learn.

Even the worst things in history, the worst atrocities... it will end up being deep lessons to every single human being. The tortured and the torturer BOTH. And all of the bystanders. And all of the people in the years before and the years after. ALL people. Suffering is NEVER in vain. Victims will be vindicated. How will they be vindicated? Not from the eternal torture of their victimizers. But from the LOVE that is going to end up being SHOWN. The POWER of LOVE that will ultimately unite victim and victimizer. The power of LOVE that will make ALL fall to their knees from the sheer weight of it.

Yes, this may sound radical to some. But LOVE IS Radical. LOVE is going to TRANSFORM every single human being. Slowly in this life, in some people. COMPLETELY in the life to come in ALL people. Through Christ. The source.

God is NOT evil. Mankind is evil to fellow man. WE are EVIL to our neighbor because we are LEARNING the difference between love and non-love. There is NO OTHER WAY. This life is temporary.

When all is said and done.... it's all going to make perfect sense. I have absolute faith in that because it makes a LOT of sense to me now. It tuly does. People look around at this world... and think "Surely, there is no God". I look around at this world and think "This is WHY we NEED God. This is why we will cling to Him forever." BECAUSE....we will all eventually realize that He is LOVE. And we will see the cause and effect tricking down, from the worst atrocities man does to man to the little everyday ways we harm our fellow man. We will finally understand why LOVE is the only WAY. That LOVE is the ONLY WAY. The source of Love is GOD. This present world is currenlty run by MANKIND. We are understanding why we NEED GOD and why we will CLING to Him. Forever.
God doesn't cause the rape and murder of a woman.
The rape and murder are byproducts of NON-LOVE.
Why doesn't God STOP the rape and murder?
If HE did....what kind of world would this be?
A FAKE world.
Where everytime, someone went to do something non-loving to someone else, God would stop them dead in their tracks?
That wouldn't work. We are here to EXPERIENCE. And yes, that means we must SUFFER through the darkest of mankind's actions.
WHY??? Why you say? Because it has to just play out. The GRAVE seriousoness of NON-LOVE has to be SHOWN for ALL that it is.
For all the DESTRUCTION that it causes.
GOD does NOT cause evil.
God IS LOVE!!!

NON-LOVE causes evil.

We will finally learn what we came to learn.
We are not home.
We are only on the ROAD to home.
When we get there... we are there to stay.
Having understood the reason we were here in the first place.
Yes, Our Father is the ultimate good Father.
Sometimes... looking around... it doesn't seem that way.
but the keyword is "SEEMS".
Have faith.
This world is not our home.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2009, 07:52:04 PM »
CP, as I understand your question so far, I would say that death occurs in Adam and life occurs in Christ. Do I believe that rape or murder occurs in God? That is why I asked what you mean by "in Him." I believe the carnal mind is what causes men to sin. Romans 7 proves that men sin because of slavery to the body of death...which they have been sold into.


Doesn't all this occur IN God though? In human language or another way to put it is.........didn't God think this all up? I mean really. God did 'think' this all up didn't He? And if He did then He knew and knows exactly what is going to happen. I have to believe all of life as we know it was thought up and thought out, every single detail and outcome, by God.

I get the feeling, in some spiritual way, that God is thinking and we are His thoughts. God's thoughts are living things in other words.

Do you believe rape and murder occurs in God? Do you believe the carnal mind occurs in God or is a reality IN God?

cp

Well, I don't take "didn't God think this all up? I mean really. God did 'think' this all up didn't He? And if He did then He knew and knows exactly what is going to happen" (which is something I agree with, that God's thoughts know the evils that will occur), as being something that has the meaning of being "in God." Maybe we agree on the fundamentals but not on what we call it.


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I get the feeling, in some spiritual way, that God is thinking and we are His thoughts. God's thoughts are living things in other words.

I'd have to see the scripture on that. That's just how my mind works. I think it is an interesting idea, but I'd have to see it taught through the scripture to agree on it or not. I lean against it initially though.

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Do you believe rape and murder occurs in God? Do you believe the carnal mind occurs in God or is a reality IN God?

Well I do believe that God knows all the evils that occur and allows them to occur as you say. You defined "in God" as being that he knows they will occur. I agree that he knows that they will occur.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2009, 07:52:25 PM »
Seth, not your fault but I don't think you answered a question of mine that may help me out. I asked.....

Seth, not to beat this point to death but do you see God and His creation as only separate entities? Do you see all as happening and being worked out IN Him?

You asked for clarification but I don't think you anwered it after.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Online WhiteWings

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2009, 07:55:42 PM »
Hi! Molly

Wow!
I just noticed that under your name here is the startling statistic: Posts: 4127
You should be staring in the sequel to "Sleepless in Seattle"; only this time the movie should be titled, "Sleepless in TentMakers". :grin:
But you are catching up because you make more posts/day  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Why God Allows Evil by George MacDonald
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2009, 08:02:41 PM »
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I think it's all in your perspective. I'm at a place where I see God as nothing but Love. All love comes from Him.

He is the source of ALL love. There is no evil in Him.

I totally agree.


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And the evil that is committed here on earth is when mankind turns AWAY from that source of Love.

I agree, although I actually believe that man is born in iniquity conceived in sin, meaning by borne nature, man's flesh lusts against the Spirit until saved by God. Meaning, I believe man is created in order to come TO that source of love, not created good, then turned away, then coming back to good. In man, that is in his flesh is no good thing which is why we depend on Christ so much for salvation from this body of death to which we are borne slaves.



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This world is temporary. This isn't our true home. I know people like to say that a lot, and it sounds like a cliche. But it is the way it is. It is truth.

How else do you learn something to it's full extent if you are not FREE to experience it ?? How else would we TRULY understand love if we were not fully familiar with it's contrasting opposite??

Totally. That's why the Bible says that, concerning everything that is done under the heavens, that God has given this evil travail that we may be humbled, brought low, by it.



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But if you sit in heavenly places, looking beyond this short LIFE which is temporary, and see what is ETERNAL, see what is being slowly DONE AWAY WITH (all of this corruption, evil, darkness, all this non-love), you realize that God is taking us through this HELL, this LIFE on earth not to punish us. NOT to torture us. NOT TO HURT US, but so that we will LEARN... you cease to see God as a monster and start to see Him as the Loving Father that HE is.

Great word! Amen!

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God doesn't cause the rape and murder of a woman.
The rape and murder are byproducts of NON-LOVE.
Why doesn't God STOP the rape and murder?
If HE did....what kind of world would this be?
A FAKE world.

Maybe we might have a different view of causality. The by-product of non-love occurs because God does not stop them from occurring, for the exact reason you say: that God is taking us through this hell of life on earth so that we will learn. The Bible backs you up. God has given us this evil travail to humble us. What my main point is that even a choice of non-action is causal.

Your post was very wise IMHO. Much love to you sister. Great conversation!