Author Topic: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?  (Read 3211 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2009, 09:31:25 PM »
Sadie :icon_flower:

Many places to start on this thread...

But this Place you called Hell[hades] of such torment and pain.. :sigh:

is it this one Rev 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.   

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

note the word Brimstone,.. in the Old T, Brimstone is likened to a stream and that Stream is the SPIRIT of God which brought\brings Life..strange dont ya think,an incense of Purification? :icon_flower:


.
Isa 30:33 For Tophet[ place of fire] [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath [nĕshamah]
 of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. 

Al lwood[ men after the flesh] must perish .for life to reign

and again..Doesnt Hades itself get cast into the Same Fire..Hell cast into hell..mmm

hades speaks after those who Dwell there..Dead to Christ, Dead men walking and talking SPEAKING AND TEACHING the ministration of DEATH
 
for mine -The rich man like many other times  when we SEE rich mentioned ,speaks more after spiritual WEALTH, which at the time were the jews, specially those who sat in Moses seat, The Pharisees..men after LAW  ...lazurus[ he who is helped] is One of Faith.
 
The whole parable depicts those NOT of Faith and those who are,, the place of HELL is where ALL not in the faith Are, even those who Live,let the DEAD bury the dead etc
 
its all figurative. :icon_flower:
 
The top of the Finger [ Christ Finger wrote in the EARTH] IT Teaches, the water is The spirit which Quenches the RICH man Tongues as its Speaks DEATH as one who Taught AFTER the Ministration of IT.
 
The Great Gulf betwen them is FAITH and can ONLY be breached because of it..

the five Brothers ARE the LAW and the Prophets = Torah
 they Never Understood that law speaks of the Shadow of the reality which was to follow.

YES INDEED parables speak of spiritual Truths, the theme is generally the same , Law v Grace and TRUTH..
This is a really good post.  Thanks!

Sadie

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2009, 09:42:48 PM »
Sven,

It doesn't matter if you view this parable literal or not..all of Jesus' parables teach spiritual truth. You can deny these scriptures all you want but it does not take away the truth given in them of where people go when they die. :dontknow:

Offline willieH

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2009, 01:16:49 AM »
willieH: Hi Sadie... :hithere:

I love talking about God.

Would you answer ONE QUESTION?

Just curious, you wouldn't happen to be ---> CoG37 or Lee100 ...would you?  A simple "yes or no" answer would suffice, ...thanks!   :ty:

If no...  Hey -- glad to have you aboard!!!  :newb:  :welcome:  :friendstu:

If yes... why continue the charade?  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2009, 07:53:23 AM »
Sven,

It doesn't matter if you view this parable literal or not..all of Jesus' parables teach spiritual truth. You can deny these scriptures all you want but it does not take away the truth given in them of where people go when they die. :dontknow:

Do you believe the flame that tormented/torments rich man is a spiritual flame or a literal flame. Perhaps both.
Personally don't believe in literal flames but spiriual flames.... yeah I believe in them.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline willieH

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 10:15:00 AM »
willieH: Hi Sadie... :hithere:

Still waiting for you to answer!  :dontknow:

Would you answer ONE QUESTION?

Just curious, you wouldn't happen to be ---> CoG37 or Lee100 ...would you?  A simple "yes or no" answer would suffice, ...thanks!   :ty:

If no...  Hey -- glad to have you aboard!!!  :newb:  :welcome:  :friendstu:

If yes... why continue the charade?  :dontknow:


...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Doc

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2009, 09:45:33 PM »
gang,

Luke 16:19-31. Have you guys really meditated on these scriptures? Rather or not you believe this was a real occurence or a story, all of Jesus' parables taught a true lesson. This particular parable teaches what happens to people when they die and where they go.

Notice the last scriptures of this parable. It is quite alarming and goes against repenting after you die. Read verses 27 -31. Tell me this sounds like a repentant sinner changing his mind about Jesus while he is in Hades. Earlier The Rich man told Abraham to tell Lazarus to top his finger in water and bring it to him. Does this sound like a repentance? Sounds self-righteous and arrogant to me. Is this place of torment changing the Rich man's heart? I dont think so. The Rich man tells Abraham to warn his 5 brothers of this torment. And how did Abraham respond? He tells him they have Moses and the prophets ( The OT scriptures that point to Jesus) to let them hear them.

So after reading these scriptures why do you still believe that Hades changes people's hearts, when it clearly shows it does not.  :dontknow:

To all of the previous responses, I would also add: I don't believe Hades changes people's hearts, I believe God does.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2009, 10:01:00 PM »
The crucible has many forms.

Tim B

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2009, 10:39:08 PM »
Quote
Rather if you believe Jesus is telling a literal occurrence or a story..all of His parables teach spiritual truth regardless if you understood or not. This parable is spiritual truth of what happens to people when they die and where they go.

I believe in soul sleep and you will not convince me of any different, see here:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4791.0

I believe the dead do not go anywhere.

Quote
Sven, Lazarus did not go to heaven because he was poor. He went to Abraham's bosom because he was Abraham's true decendant an heir to the promise which is of faith of Abaraham ( Romans 4:16 ; Galatians 3:29).


Abraham's bosom is a Talmudic expression as far as I know, I consider it not scriptural as it appears nowhere else in the Bible.

Titus 1:13,14

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offence he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Quote
I take the parable literally and don't see people going to heaven because of a bad life.

wheter you take it literal or not, it does not support eternal damnation

Revelation 1:18

I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

some of the churchfathers believed that Christ descended to Hades after his death and saved souls like the rich man, I think it was St. Jerome.

Revelation 20:13

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and everyone was judged according to what they had done.

why should the dead like the rich man, escape Hades only to suffer greater torment, do you consider God to be a sadist?


Pretty sweet, man! Nice reply!  :thumbsup:

Tim B

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2009, 10:42:56 PM »
If Hades was only for the disobedient then why do ALL men go there, as is stated in the Old Testament? Sheol = Hades in the Old Testament.

I guess God isn't saving anybody... T_T [/sarcasm]
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 04:59:07 AM by Tim B »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2009, 10:56:56 PM »

To all of the previous responses, I would also add: I don't believe Hades changes people's hearts, I believe God does.


Hi Doc, I believe you are correct, but as we know he can use circumstances as a part of that.

I think Sadies intent was to say that even if God was to offer mercy and forgivness to someone in hell, they would not change as a result of being there.   Some argument center on speculation that someone would fake devotion or acceptance just to get out of their circumstances.

But I wonder if even their speculation betrays the whole point of God.  If Hell is a literal pit of torture (not arguing that I believe that, just for sake of discussion) and someone in agony understands that they got themselves there and God was the only way out,  God turning his back on that person forever contradicts Gods character in so many ways it isn't even funny.

Not funny at all.


Offline Doc

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2009, 11:30:07 PM »
Yeah, I was aware of what she was trying to say. I was just pointing out a bit of flawed logic in the structure of the question. Of course, God can and does use circumstances, but it isn't the circumstances themselves that change people's hearts
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Tim B

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2009, 05:09:32 AM »
I think the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, from what I've read, and some of my own thoughts on it, stand for this (surely, any wisdom though, comes from the God that is LOVE):

Rich Man = Jews

Lazarus = Gentiles

Within the New Covenant the Gentiles got the riches of the Jews. The Jews were still trying to live in the Old Covenant (aka Hades) and Abraham told them that nothing they could do could get them to God whilst in Hades (aka living in the Old Covenant). It was an impassable gulf. He also told the Rich Man that it wouldn't be any good to tell "his brothers" because they wouldn't believe even if a man rose from the dead (aka Jesus).

Another way of looking at the impassable gulf (which could probably be articulated into my above sentence): it is the stubbornness that God has put upon the Jews, temporarily, to bring in the fullness of the Gentiles. But once the Gentiles have all entered, THEN the impassable gulf will be filled, or done away with, and then the Jews will be able to enter into Abraham's Bosom (which is a symbol for a close relationship with God), and then ALL Israel will be saved (as well as all the Gentiles of course).

Meanwhile, the Jews, or the "Rich Man," suffers from their loss of primary favor from God.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:13:10 AM by Tim B »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2009, 09:16:53 AM »
I think the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, from what I've read, and some of my own thoughts on it, stand for this (surely, any wisdom though, comes from the God that is LOVE):

Rich Man = Jews

Lazarus = Gentiles

Within the New Covenant the Gentiles got the riches of the Jews.
The riches are spiritual riches. Like eternal life for example.
If so where the gentiles in hades/grave locked behind the gate. At Jesus death the where let into heaven?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2009, 07:03:02 AM »
I think the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, from what I've read, and some of my own thoughts on it, stand for this (surely, any wisdom though, comes from the God that is LOVE):

Rich Man = Jews

Lazarus = Gentiles

Within the New Covenant the Gentiles got the riches of the Jews.
The riches are spiritual riches. Like eternal life for example.
If so where the gentiles in hades/grave locked behind the gate. At Jesus death the where let into heaven?

Umm, well, maybe. But it might just be talking about the Gentiles being currently blessed in the present life. I'm not sure it has anything to do with the already dead, at least, in the immediate sense.

Offline claypot

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2009, 04:42:40 PM »
I think the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, from what I've read, and some of my own thoughts on it, stand for this (surely, any wisdom though, comes from the God that is LOVE):

Rich Man = Jews

Lazarus = Gentiles

Within the New Covenant the Gentiles got the riches of the Jews.
The riches are spiritual riches. Like eternal life for example.
If so where the gentiles in hades/grave locked behind the gate. At Jesus death the where let into heaven?

I recently had a conversation with a friend that seemed to aid him a lot and it went like this……

I was explaining to him what I thought the meaning of Lazarus and the rich man were.

While not denying the explanations above I suggested that God is trying to get a spiritual message to us. I talked of how God is spirit, Jesus said His words are spirit, and how we are told to worship (see His words to us?) in spirit.

Then I explained how I see these words about Lazarus and the rich man as I see all the words of God, and that is that they are about each individual person. In other words, they represent what is within each person. I see in me both Lazarus and the rich man. I see a very carnal 'person' and a 'divine' one. I see these 'two' in everyone I meet. To me, it is a fabulous revelation that Jesus is supplying here. Makes total sense.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2009, 07:27:52 PM »
 :cloud9: I agree with you CP......especially if you know that the words "wide gulf" can also be translated "wound", as in the wound in His side, ie. the inner court/firmament, the realm of the mediation of Christ and His spiritual "priesthood". Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor