Author Topic: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?  (Read 3195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sadie

  • Guest
Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« on: September 15, 2009, 07:47:28 AM »
gang,

Luke 16:19-31. Have you guys really meditated on these scriptures? Rather or not you believe this was a real occurence or a story, all of Jesus' parables taught a true lesson. This particular parable teaches what happens to people when they die and where they go.

Notice the last scriptures of this parable. It is quite alarming and goes against repenting after you die. Read verses 27 -31. Tell me this sounds like a repentant sinner changing his mind about Jesus while he is in Hades. Earlier The Rich man told Abraham to tell Lazarus to top his finger in water and bring it to him. Does this sound like a repentance? Sounds self-righteous and arrogant to me. Is this place of torment changing the Rich man's heart? I dont think so. The Rich man tells Abraham to warn his 5 brothers of this torment. And how did Abraham respond? He tells him they have Moses and the prophets ( The OT scriptures that point to Jesus) to let them hear them.

So after reading these scriptures why do you still believe that Hades changes people's hearts, when it clearly shows it does not.  :dontknow:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 08:01:06 AM by Sadie »

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 08:00:49 AM »
Lazarus = gentiles

rich man = Israel, specifically the religious leaders

Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and Sadducees in parables, as it was not given them to understand (as it was to the disciples). 

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/richman.htm

http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 08:09:28 AM »
Jabcat,

Lazarus represented everyone that is a believer.The Richman represented self-righteous unbelievers. Every parable Jesus taught was spiritual truth, regardless if you understood it or not. This is how I understand these scriptures. This parable is so clear on the teaching of heaven and hades, you have to almost add words and meaning to it to mess it up.  :2c:

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 08:15:54 AM »
Did you to read the links?  If not, then we're just talking at each other, not to each other.  There is much to understand in the parable.  On what do you base this belief:  " Lazarus represented everyone that is a believer.  The Richman represented self-righteous unbelievers"?  As I asked in another thread, are you sure there aren't some preconceived notions/assumptions in your opinion?

James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 08:27:53 AM »
Jabcat,

Are not all of Abrahams decendants the heir to the promise who are of faith of Abraham? (Romans 4:16 and Galatians 3:29) That would be Lazarus. Why do you suppose he is in Abrahams bosom? Not my opinion, James, but God's word as I understand it :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 08:39:23 AM by Sadie »

Offline Raggedy Anne

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 726
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 10:37:47 AM »
I'd like to know how just the tip of a man's finger is going to cool that rich dude's tongue with just a drop of water.

"The rich man shouted, 'Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip
 of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.

And if these are literal flames, how can the rich man have enough composure to carry on a conversation and even find it in his heart to worry about his five brothers?

"Then the rich man said, 'Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father's home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment.'"But Abraham said, 'Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.'"The rich man replied, 'No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.'"But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."

If I was being literally burnt to death (as I know fire naturally), I would not be able to focus on anything besides my own personal pain.

Could a loving God burn men alive?  If you burned men alive, could that be construed as a loving act?  Think about it.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 10:47:11 AM »
Jabcat,

Are not all of Abrahams decendants the heir to the promise who are of faith of Abraham? (Romans 4:16 and Galatians 3:29) That would be Lazarus. Why do you suppose he is in Abrahams bosom? Not my opinion, James, but God's word as I understand it :thumbsup:

Then I'll rephrase;  are you sure there aren't some preconceived notions/assumptions in your understanding?  :bigGrin:

Good questions Anne.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 10:57:53 AM »
"Then the rich man said, 'Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father's home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment.'"But Abraham said, 'Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.'"The rich man replied, 'No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.'"But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."
Note #1: Torment not torture
Note #2: Rich man no longer is in unbelief. He knows.

Best would be if the links at given at teh start of the thread would be read. And from that point start continue discussion. Or just jump to another thread just like old days  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9022
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 11:11:33 AM »
"just like old days", eh?  what on earth could you mean?  :laughing7:

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 02:31:49 PM »
Quote
Tell me this sounds like a repentant sinner changing his mind about Jesus while he is in Hades.

that parable mentions nothing about faith in Jesus, if it's taken literal, the rich man just went to hell because he didn't give enough to poor Lazarus, and Lazarus on the other hand seems to have went to paradise only because he was poor.

This story if taken literal might even imply everyone who had a bad life well go to paradise, just because he had a bad life.

I recommend this to read:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/lazarus1.html

Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 03:39:03 PM »
Hi sven,

Rather if you believe Jesus is telling a literal occurrence or a story..all of His parables teach spiritual truth regardless if you understood or not. This parable is spiritual truth of what happens to people when they die and where they go.

Sven, Lazarus did not go to heaven because he was poor. He went to Abraham's bosom because he was Abraham's true decendant an heir to the promise which is of faith of Abaraham ( Romans 4:16 ; Galatians 3:29). I take the parable literally and don't see people going to heaven because of a bad life. That is not how people are saved and not the teaching of this parable.

Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 03:54:26 PM »
hi Anne,

Are you saying God is unjust Anne by sending rebellious sinners to Hades? Everything God does is just and nothing He does is unjust..including punishing sin. The OT and NT testament teaches the consequenses of sin and warns humanity the just penalty of it.

Luke 16:24 says the rich man is in agony. I don't think are finite minds can wrap around the horror and torture of hades and the lake of fire. Jesus pictured Hades as unspeakable torment. I believe this shows how concious you are..your conscience fed by underlying memories of lost opportunity and permenant separation from God and everything good.

The flames of Hades did not atone for sin orpurge haredened Rich man from thier depravity.  :2c:

Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2009, 03:57:30 PM »
hi Whitewing,

Luke 16:24 says the rich man is in agony. I don't think are finite minds can wrap around the horror and torture of Hades and the lake of fire. Jesus pictured Hades as unspeakable torment. I believe this shows how concious you are..your conscience fed by underlying memories of lost opportunity and permenant separation from God and everything good.

The flames of Hades did not atone for sin or purge hardened Rich man from his depravity.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2009, 04:00:53 PM »
gang,

Luke 16:19-31. Have you guys really meditated on these scriptures? Rather or not you believe this was a real occurence or a story, all of Jesus' parables taught a true lesson. This particular parable teaches what happens to people when they die and where they go.

Notice the last scriptures of this parable. It is quite alarming and goes against repenting after you die. Read verses 27 -31. Tell me this sounds like a repentant sinner changing his mind about Jesus while he is in Hades. Earlier The Rich man told Abraham to tell Lazarus to top his finger in water and bring it to him. Does this sound like a repentance? Sounds self-righteous and arrogant to me. Is this place of torment changing the Rich man's heart? I dont think so. The Rich man tells Abraham to warn his 5 brothers of this torment. And how did Abraham respond? He tells him they have Moses and the prophets ( The OT scriptures that point to Jesus) to let them hear them.

So after reading these scriptures why do you still believe that Hades changes people's hearts, when it clearly shows it does not.  :dontknow:

It is a logical fallacy to actually say scripture "Clearly" says anything when coming from the perspective you do and I will prove it.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This is CLEAR isn't it?  So, now what you propose is not so clear any more and this verse will require you to provide commentary explaining why you have not either contradicted yourself or why the bible does not contradict itself.




Begin.


Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 04:02:36 PM »
"Then the rich man said, 'Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father's home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment.'"But Abraham said, 'Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.'"The rich man replied, 'No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.'"But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."
Note #1: Torment not torture
Note #2: Rich man no longer is in unbelief. He knows.

Best would be if the links at given at teh start of the thread would be read. And from that point start continue discussion. Or just jump to another thread just like old days  :winkgrin:

I hear ya loud and clear WW and I agree! It doesn't give up easily.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 04:02:57 PM »
"just like old days", eh?  what on earth could you mean?  :laughing7:




LOL

Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 04:12:05 PM »
Hi Paul,

Not understanding 1 Tim 2:4 the originally way God wrote it to mean by know means takes away the spiritual truth of this parable.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2009, 04:14:52 PM »
Hi Paul,

Not understanding 1 Tim 2:4 the originally way God wrote it to mean by know means takes away the spiritual truth of this parable.


Well of course you would say that,  that is exactly my point.   

Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2009, 04:20:07 PM »
Paul, you and some others sure are a patient lot. I admire you!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 05:47:16 PM »
 Sadie :icon_flower:

Many places to start on this thread...

But this Place you called Hell[hades] of such torment and pain.. :sigh:

is it this one Rev 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.   

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

note the word Brimstone,.. in the Old T, Brimstone is likened to a stream and that Stream is the SPIRIT of God which brought\brings Life..strange dont ya think,an incense of Purification? :icon_flower:


.
Isa 30:33 For Tophet[ place of fire] [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath [nĕshamah]
 of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it. 

Al lwood[ men after the flesh] must perish .for life to reign

and again..Doesnt Hades itself get cast into the Same Fire..Hell cast into hell..mmm

hades speaks after those who Dwell there..Dead to Christ, Dead men walking and talking SPEAKING AND TEACHING the ministration of DEATH
 
for mine -The rich man like many other times  when we SEE rich mentioned ,speaks more after spiritual WEALTH, which at the time were the jews, specially those who sat in Moses seat, The Pharisees..men after LAW  ...lazurus[ he who is helped] is One of Faith.
 
The whole parable depicts those NOT of Faith and those who are,, the place of HELL is where ALL not in the faith Are, even those who Live,let the DEAD bury the dead etc
 
its all figurative. :icon_flower:
 
The top of the Finger [ Christ Finger wrote in the EARTH] IT Teaches, the water is The spirit which Quenches the RICH man Tongues as its Speaks DEATH as one who Taught AFTER the Ministration of IT.
 
The Great Gulf betwen them is FAITH and can ONLY be breached because of it..

the five Brothers ARE the LAW and the Prophets = Torah
 they Never Understood that law speaks of the Shadow of the reality which was to follow.

YES INDEED parables speak of spiritual Truths, the theme is generally the same , Law v Grace and TRUTH..
« Last Edit: September 15, 2009, 05:59:48 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Seth

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2009, 06:41:24 PM »
gang,

Luke 16:19-31. Have you guys really meditated on these scriptures? Rather or not you believe this was a real occurence or a story, all of Jesus' parables taught a true lesson. This particular parable teaches what happens to people when they die and where they go.

Notice the last scriptures of this parable. It is quite alarming and goes against repenting after you die. Read verses 27 -31. Tell me this sounds like a repentant sinner changing his mind about Jesus while he is in Hades. Earlier The Rich man told Abraham to tell Lazarus to top his finger in water and bring it to him. Does this sound like a repentance? Sounds self-righteous and arrogant to me. Is this place of torment changing the Rich man's heart? I dont think so. The Rich man tells Abraham to warn his 5 brothers of this torment. And how did Abraham respond? He tells him they have Moses and the prophets ( The OT scriptures that point to Jesus) to let them hear them.

So after reading these scriptures why do you still believe that Hades changes people's hearts, when it clearly shows it does not.  :dontknow:

I respect your opinion but in mine, you aren't interpreting that correctly.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12919
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2009, 06:49:38 PM »
hi Whitewing,

Luke 16:24 says the rich man is in agony. I don't think are finite minds can wrap around the horror and torture of Hades and the lake of fire. Jesus pictured Hades as unspeakable torment.
Sadie, I wonder why you use the word torture?
From previous chats I have learned you find certain translations biased. I think you agree KJV has no UR bias.
KJV writes torment not torture. Different words. And not without reason...

Quote
I believe this shows how concious you are..your conscience fed by underlying memories of lost opportunity and permenant separation from God and everything good.
I'm sure the people in there are concious. Otherwise it would but useless both from UR and ET pov.
What the  torment exactly is I don't know. I've never found a passage defining the torments.


Quote
The flames of Hades did not atone for sin or purge hardened Rich man from his depravity.

How do you know? To me it looks teh parable discusses a timespan of 15-30 minutes.
RM was burning in fire and he had a rather polite conversation. He asks for water once. Then he asks to warn his 5 brethen.
I really doubt literal fire would make such a conversation possible.
Personally I think RM is quite salty now  :laughing7:
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2009, 07:15:10 PM »
Quote
Rather if you believe Jesus is telling a literal occurrence or a story..all of His parables teach spiritual truth regardless if you understood or not. This parable is spiritual truth of what happens to people when they die and where they go.

I believe in soul sleep and you will not convince me of any different, see here:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4791.0

I believe the dead do not go anywhere.

Quote
Sven, Lazarus did not go to heaven because he was poor. He went to Abraham's bosom because he was Abraham's true decendant an heir to the promise which is of faith of Abaraham ( Romans 4:16 ; Galatians 3:29).


Abraham's bosom is a Talmudic expression as far as I know, I consider it not scriptural as it appears nowhere else in the Bible.

Titus 1:13,14

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offence he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Quote
I take the parable literally and don't see people going to heaven because of a bad life.

wheter you take it literal or not, it does not support eternal damnation

Revelation 1:18

I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

some of the churchfathers believed that Christ descended to Hades after his death and saved souls like the rich man, I think it was St. Jerome.

Revelation 20:13

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and everyone was judged according to what they had done.

why should the dead like the rich man, escape Hades only to suffer greater torment, do you consider God to be a sadist?







Sadie

  • Guest
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2009, 09:11:31 PM »
Sven,

This teaching and many other sciptures totally refute soul sleeping. I have no idea how you can deny these scriptures and come to the conclusion of soul sleep. The rich man is totally conscious and in agony being in Hades.  :dontknow:

Abaham's bosom is a symbol of heaven.

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why do you believe Hades changes peoples hearts?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2009, 09:16:27 PM »
again

Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offence he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

not a single further verse does support to understand the story of the rich man and Lazarus literal, I see you neither read the concordant explanation nor my own thread.

honestly, I care no longer about other's opinions, believe what you want, it doesn't affect what I believe, please don't see this as offense, I didn't speak in anger but in tiredness.