Author Topic: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?  (Read 4566 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« on: September 14, 2007, 01:23:14 PM »
Hi All. :icon_flower:

For mine its  a Circumsion of the HEART  :icon_flower:, as the Flesh Profits Nothing.

We read the account That Timothy's dad was a Greek...was this just polotics?

Act 16:1  Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:


 Act 16:2  Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.


 Act 16:3  Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.


 Act 16:4  And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem



Comments ?
Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Transponder

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 01:52:24 PM »
Hi All. :icon_flower:

For mine its  a Circumsion of the HEART  :icon_flower:, as the Flesh Profits Nothing.

We read the account That Timothy's dad was a Greek...was this just polotics?

Act 16:1  Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:


 Act 16:2  Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.


 Act 16:3  Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.


 Act 16:4  And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem



Comments ?
Blessings
Taffy

I'd say so. Paul was apparently trying to make Timothy acceptable to Jews by circumcising him. This was following the council of Jerusalem which Paul himself shrugs off as 'only they would have us remember the poor' (Galatians 3.10) whereas Acts 15.20 indicates a lot more, and I'd say that itself is a minimising of what James imposed on Paul, because Paul had Timothy circumcised.

Interestingly, Paul seems to be selective about the facts about this, too as he says that Timothy was not compelled to circumcised. (Galatians 2.3).

Offline 97531

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 02:01:27 PM »
Hi Taffy

Yeah it seems strange as Paul had just come from Jerusalem and this letter was sent out.

Act 15:23  And they wrote these things by their hand: The apostles and elders and brothers send greeting to the brothers, from the nations in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Act 15:24  Because we have heard that certain ones who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, Be circumcised and keep the law! (to whom we gave no such command);
Act 15:25  it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26  men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27  Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who will also announce to you the same things by word.
Act 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these necessary things:
Act 15:29  that you abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which, if you keep yourselves, you shall do well. Be prospered.

I guess it was being politically correct.  Paul speaks of;

1Co 9:20  And to the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain the Jews. To those who are under the Law, I became as under the Law, so that I might gain those who are under the Law.
1Co 9:21  To those who are outside Law, I became as outside Law (not being outside law to God, but under the Law to Christ), so that I might gain those who are outside Law.
1Co 9:22  To the weak I became as the weak, so that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men, so that I might by all means save some.

Blessings

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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2007, 02:13:58 PM »
     Initially the Church was almost entirely Jewish.  Having been raised in that culture the early believers naturally followed their customs as they embraced the gospel and were led of the Spirit in their day to day lives.  It took about 20 years before the issue of Mosaic circumcision versus the grace of God in Christ matured.  To a large extent this prompted the first book of the N.T., Galatians, to be written in about 49 AD.  It is still arguably the single most important book for the Church.  What you find in the story of Paul is he was never free again once he went back under the law, taking a Nazarite vow.  Quite literally, he was under arrest.  It seems too he was overly independent, a law unto himself, in his desire to witness to Ceasar, the source of secular law.  The Lord through the brethren had warned him repeatedly; but, when he wouldn't be deterred, it became a prophecy that was fulfilled:  he was taken in bonds to Rome.
     You'll notice a similar thing in the story of James.  When Cephas came to Antioch, which was a "free for all" kinda church compared to Jerusalem, he had been eating with the gentile brothers there but withdrew when some others came from James. (Ga 2:11-13)  Paul publicly withstood Cephas (or, Peter) to the face saying he wasn't walking according to the gospel.  The point I want to make is the influence James seems to have had to stay under the law and traditions of Israel.  Then notice that he was the first of the apostles to be arrested and murdered for his testimony of Jesus.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 02:33:45 PM by reFORMer »
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Offline Taffy

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2007, 03:56:17 PM »
Thanks for you comments Guys...
I was posed this question yesterday on another forum by a Good sister.. :HeartThrob:.

My reply run  along the lines as youve all shared  :icon_flower:especially Paul being ALL THINGS to ALL men to WIN some.

Blessings to you all
Taffy

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

womanofpower

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2007, 03:58:14 PM »
Hi All. :icon_flower:

For mine its  a Circumsion of the HEART  :icon_flower:, as the Flesh Profits Nothing.

We read the account That Timothy's dad was a Greek...was this just polotics?

Act 16:1  Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:


 Act 16:2  Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.


 Act 16:3  Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.


 Act 16:4  And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem



Comments ?
Blessings
Taffy

Timothy was Paul's spiritual Son and his calling was to be all things to all men, like  Paul was. Those under the law in those days were vicious to kill
one claiming to be under the law and not circumcised, so it was for his protection in the natural. If it was the desire of the Lord under the law to do this, then all those that was introduced to Grace feared the freedom because the church was so new and the freedom was so easy to attain that it brought fear upon all. I remember when the Lord touched me and I felt so free and then fear hit me because others (under the law) were throwing boulders at me, not rocks. If they could they would pick up a mountain and throw it at me .

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2007, 04:09:12 PM »
Quote from: womanofpower
I remember when the Lord touched me and I felt so free and then fear hit me because others (under the law) were throwing boulders at me, not rocks. If they could they would pick up a mountain and throw it at me .

Thanks for adding Anna. :icon_flower:

I sure empathise and share your JOY :icon_flower: with the quote above...
Intresting you should say MOUNTAIN...in relation to Law.

Sinai means "Thorny" which for the word is used often a a metaphor for SIN...
Our Lord himself bearing the Sins of the WORLD in the crown of THORNS given to HIM on the Cross.

Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2007, 04:38:02 PM »
 :cloud9: I witness what you said Taffy.....he did it so as not to be a stumblingblock to his brethren. Once overcome in us, anything has no power over us anymore, which enables us to take on the appearance of sinful flesh with no sin being imputed. He's made this life in me. Blessings to you.........
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline 97531

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2007, 04:48:30 PM »
I giggle at this bit of the circumcision seeing it was a thing done at the age of 8 days.

Nowadays, travelling pastors need to present some type of covering for their ministry and/or certification of a seminary school, letter et al.

Poor guys in those days, go figure.  :laughing7:

Blessings
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2007, 05:10:49 PM »
 :cloud9: You know Seeker, I know you were joking, but a truth hit me when I read it.....they basically had to prove they were in covenant with God before the Jews would receive them to speak. The same is going to be required of the sons of God; they are going to have to "prove" they have had their heart circumcised in the "8th day", bringing them in covenant with God the Father before He will allow them to speak to the ones that are still under the law = everyone else. If you know what the circumcision actually is that He's talking about, it underscores the fact that many will come in His name, but they won't have the "credentials" to prove it. It's not Christ who says, "Get away from Me, I never knew you. He was only speaking what He heard the FATHER speak!

WOW....this blessed me. Thank you Lord. God is going to have such "fun" with this; tearing down the strongholds and displaying His power and glory at long last to a dying creation. Blessings to you.......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2007, 07:28:44 PM »


Jesus Christ Himself is "prove worthy!" He said, "Do NOT believe me unless I "do" the Works of MY Father!
And what makes Him who He says He is ....is the fact that He is more than talk!  He is "do!" We can
talk about it, but HE can do it!  Talk about the "manifestation" of the Sons of God, setting creation FREE!
I don't think I have properly understood all that, just little glimpse peeking out of the lattice, but He's going
to perform ALL His word! 

We are the work of HIS Hands..........if not, who is?


:cloud9: You know Seeker, I know you were joking, but a truth hit me when I read it.....they basically had to prove they were in covenant with God before the Jews would receive them to speak. The same is going to be required of the sons of God; they are going to have to "prove" they have had their heart circumcised in the "8th day", bringing them in covenant with God the Father before He will allow them to speak to the ones that are still under the law = everyone else. If you know what the circumcision actually is that He's talking about, it underscores the fact that many will come in His name, but they won't have the "credentials" to prove it. It's not Christ who says, "Get away from Me, I never knew you. He was only speaking what He heard the FATHER speak!

WOW....this blessed me. Thank you Lord. God is going to have such "fun" with this; tearing down the strongholds and displaying His power and glory at long last to a dying creation. Blessings to you.......

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 08:41:58 PM »
 :cloud9: That first line from you blessed me again, RLV! It's established. They won't believe us unless we do the works of our Father. Awesome God! Blessings to you.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Transponder

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2007, 11:54:31 AM »
     Initially the Church was almost entirely Jewish.  Having been raised in that culture the early believers naturally followed their customs as they embraced the gospel and were led of the Spirit in their day to day lives.  It took about 20 years before the issue of Mosaic circumcision versus the grace of God in Christ matured.  To a large extent this prompted the first book of the N.T., Galatians, to be written in about 49 AD.  It is still arguably the single most important book for the Church.  What you find in the story of Paul is he was never free again once he went back under the law, taking a Nazarite vow.  Quite literally, he was under arrest.  It seems too he was overly independent, a law unto himself, in his desire to witness to Ceasar, the source of secular law.  The Lord through the brethren had warned him repeatedly; but, when he wouldn't be deterred, it became a prophecy that was fulfilled:  he was taken in bonds to Rome.
     You'll notice a similar thing in the story of James.  When Cephas came to Antioch, which was a "free for all" kinda church compared to Jerusalem, he had been eating with the gentile brothers there but withdrew when some others came from James. (Ga 2:11-13)  Paul publicly withstood Cephas (or, Peter) to the face saying he wasn't walking according to the gospel.  The point I want to make is the influence James seems to have had to stay under the law and traditions of Israel.  Then notice that he was the first of the apostles to be arrested and murdered for his testimony of Jesus.

Like your post, reformer.  :thumbsup:

This is something that interests me: the followers of Jesus who certainly look entirely Jewish and how Christianity evolved out of that. I'd say two main ways

Adherence to the Jewish law (particularly dietary laws and circumcision)

Hmm..actually just that. I was going to say 'the divinity of Jesus' but that was something that developed beyond what Paul envisaged. So it's down to Jesus choosing Paul as a apostle and speaking to Paul in the spirit. But the indications are that Paul was accepted as an apostle to the gentiles and
the only real problem was that Paul was telling the gentiles that they didn't need to follow the Jewish law to become followers of Jesus.

That as why he was called to Jerusalem. I don't buy Luke's account (in Acts 15.7-11) of Peter's speech. I think Luke minimizes what was in James' letter, which is surprisingly vague (in Acts) and Paul virtually ignores it. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 12:17:16 PM by SeekerSA »

martincisneros

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2007, 03:54:53 PM »
Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?  Because they were keeping true to the real faith, bless God!  And we're all a bunch of backslidden Hell bound sinners that need to stick the ol' flesh on the choppin' block or we're all going to burn in Hell forever and ever and ever and ever!!!  YOU HEAR ME, YOU ROTTEN SINNERS??!!!!!!!!!


Anyway, jokes aside, if Timothy didn't feel compelled to be circumcised as someone indicated that Paul claims, then that must have been quite the spectacle watching Paul chase Timothy with a knife until he caught him!!

So much for "Just as I am, without one plea..."

Would a good answer for this one be that because there wasn't enough water present for Paul to baptized Timothy, so in the absense of water - uh... things got ugly? :icon_jokercolor:

The devil made him do it????

Bad translation?????

Paul misread the Great Commission in Matthew and went about Circumcising in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit????  Ouch! Keep me out of that beep revival meeting!! 

You may have been circumcised, but were you really circumcised???  Was it in the Name of Jesus, or in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?????  If it wasn't done right, you'll have to be re-circumcised.

For your pledge of $58 a month......(no, I'm not going to even go there!!)

The simple answer to this one may be that Paul wasn't omnicient and didn't have all of the answers and was still working it out, and perhaps the screams of Timothy let him know that this can't possibly be what the Holy Spirit meant.  I mean, come on!!  Timothy just screamed louder than Stephen ever did!!!!!!!!!!

Offline 97531

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2007, 04:05:48 PM »
Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?  Because they were keeping true to the real faith, bless God!  And we're all a bunch of backslidden Hell bound sinners that need to stick the ol' flesh on the choppin' block or we're all going to burn in Hell forever and ever and ever and ever!!!  YOU HEAR ME, YOU ROTTEN SINNERS??!!!!!!!!!


Anyway, jokes aside, if Timothy didn't feel compelled to be circumcised as someone indicated that Paul claims, then that must have been quite the spectacle watching Paul chase Timothy with a knife until he caught him!!

So much for "Just as I am, without one plea..."

Would a good answer for this one be that because there wasn't enough water present for Paul to baptized Timothy, so in the absense of water - uh... things got ugly? :icon_jokercolor:

The devil made him do it????

Bad translation?????

Paul misread the Great Commission in Matthew and went about Circumcising in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit????  Ouch! Keep me out of that beep revival meeting!! 

You may have been circumcised, but were you really circumcised???  Was it in the Name of Jesus, or in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?????  If it wasn't done right, you'll have to be re-circumcised.

For your pledge of $58 a month......(no, I'm not going to even go there!!)

The simple answer to this one may be that Paul wasn't omnicient and didn't have all of the answers and was still working it out, and perhaps the screams of Timothy let him know that this can't possibly be what the Holy Spirit meant.  I mean, come on!!  Timothy just screamed louder than Stephen ever did!!!!!!!!!!

I could really imagine some funny smilies right now  :pointlaugh: :Whistle:

Here are a few

 :Oops: :omg: :footmouth: :Pray: :wacko2: :eek: :doh: :btantrum: :help: :talkangry: :swordfight: :eeew: :offtopic:
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womanofpower

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2007, 05:54:00 PM »
 :laughing7:  :grin: :mlaugh: :Urock: :trampoline: :happyclap:

Transponder

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2007, 01:20:57 AM »
I liked it, too.

Offline studier

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2007, 01:40:43 AM »
Oh my Gosh! HAhahaHAahahAHAHAHAHA

Offline Pierac

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2007, 08:22:58 AM »
Quote from: seekerSA
Poor guys in those days, go figure.

Yea, put that in the prerequisites   :laughing7:

Not many signing up for that program!    :mnah:

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2007, 12:02:59 PM »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

martincisneros

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2008, 04:00:49 AM »
THANK GOD CIRCUMCISION ISN'T A PART OF THE NEW COVENANT!

I would definitely turn into a Jonah if bringing someone to Christ really meant sharpening my razor every single week and instead of carrying the communion set, if I had to carry gauze, Bactine, and prescription strength pain killers.  I'm not sure if Vicoden would even work for that!

This thread seemed appropriate to bring back to the front of the board because they argued as fiercely over this in the first 10 to 30 years of Christianity as anyone has argued around here for free will, absolute sovereignty, etc.  Can you imagine having to argue either side of that with a straight face for years?  That would make a lot of this other stuff seem petty by comparison.  Fall asleep on your back and the Judaizers are liable to be inspecting you! Or worse!!

martincisneros

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2009, 03:31:57 PM »

Is this supposed to be a "left behind" premillenialist?

trettep

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2009, 07:08:11 PM »
Hi All. :icon_flower:

For mine its  a Circumsion of the HEART  :icon_flower:, as the Flesh Profits Nothing.

We read the account That Timothy's dad was a Greek...was this just polotics?

Act 16:1  Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:


 Act 16:2  Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.


 Act 16:3  Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.


 Act 16:4  And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem



Comments ?
Blessings
Taffy

I have come to believe the physical circumcision is just another type of reflection of what is Spiritual for one is really circumcised if their heart is and not the flesh.  I believe that there is no REAL profit in the flesh.  However TO the flesh is their perceived Profit and I believe that is the case here.  The Apostles are the PERSUASION.  That was how they conducted their ministration.  They used their lives as living examples unto THE WAY to life which is thru Jesus Christ.  Therefore their flesh was just another tool in that effort so why not circumcise it if it facilitates the PERSUASION?  That is how I see it.

Regarding the Circumcision though, I recall reading Jewish sages that commented about the 8th day requirement that it was not completely understood.  One Jewish sage recorded thought that it was representative of a new day as an understanding of a new world.  I studied the Epistle of Barnabas and understood that 8th to be the day when Jesus turns over the Kingdom to the Father in Heaven when all has been reconciled so this essentially becomes the day when all the Sons of God are consecrated to the Father.  I further believe that Jesus raising on Sunday (1st day of the week) is actually a type of this resurrection meaning that Jesus didn't really raise on the 1st day of the week (though technically He did) but rather Jesus resurrection was on the 8th day which just happens to be on the 1st day of the week.  In other words it is a matter of perspective.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2009, 10:26:18 PM »
:cloud9: I witness what you said Taffy.....he did it so as not to be a stumblingblock to his brethren. Once overcome in us, anything has no power over us anymore, which enables us to take on the appearance of sinful flesh with no sin being imputed. He's made this life in me. Blessings to you.........

Right. And amen to Taffy. As the Bible says, "to the pure all things are pure." The book of Galatians and Romans 4 really gets at the heart of the matter. It is an INTERNAL matter: Do you get circumcised because you believe that makes you right with God AND are you trying to convince the church of the same thing? That's the issue, not the actual act of circumcision. That's why meat sacrificed to idols is nothing in and of itself, as long as it doesn't become a stumbling block for your faith.

Circumcision is an outward sign that caused people to believe that they were righteous before God, but Jesus compared them to whitewashed tombs, clean on the outside, but filled with dead men's bones. So that is really the heart of the matter: the inside. The new covenant is all about genuine faith that works from the inside out. In this case, it's all about INTENTION not the act itself. What is the intention behind it because that gets to the inside, because it is what proceeds from the heart that defiles us.

When Paul circumcised Timothy, did Paul think it was to make Timothy righteous before God? Of course not! If he did, Paul would have serious problems. It was to be all things to all people in order to save some.

martincisneros

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Re: Why Did Paul circumciseTimothy ?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2009, 11:07:03 PM »
It was to be all things to all people in order to save some.
yep