Author Topic: Who create sin in the first place?  (Read 7614 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline onlytruth

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 485
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2009, 12:19:27 AM »
another question...tower of babel.God dispersed them because He was afraid of what they would come up with next?!To me it seems like people are drawing on something that is available to us, but God holds us in check,in order for His purposes to be accomplished
My thought on this all is ,we are created in the image of a Creator,wouldn't we be able to create as well?Now this could be good or bad.We see from Eve or Babel that God still calls all the shots but we keep trying all the same.Maybe this is why we only use part of our brains(that last part is pure speculation!)
 :icon_king:

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3766
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2009, 01:05:00 AM »

  they were not perfected in LOVE so the 'house' could not stand

  love is a perfect bond of union in which it can stand eternally.

   Babylon falls because a foolish woman tears down her own

  house through a lack of love. She is not our mother

  Perfect LOVE is a PURE LANGUAGE UNDERSTOOD IN ALL

    TONGUES

 

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2009, 01:39:23 AM »
Quote
My thought on this all is ,we are created in the image of a Creator,wouldn't we be able to create as well?Now this could be good or bad.

Yes.  But as long as we are stuck in this good and evil thing, we are not to be trusted.  Because we can convince ourselves that using our creations for evil is really using them for good.  And, our first inclination is to use them for money, power, and evil--to achieve a position that makes us gods.

That is why we need the righteousness of Christ--and until we have it, God will hold us back.

Offline onlytruth

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 485
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2009, 01:59:24 AM »
Thanks molly,does that mean we created the sin?Do we create our own envionment by what we do and say?
I guess that is why we should choose life and only do what the Father shows us. :icon_king:

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2009, 02:31:00 AM »
Thanks molly,does that mean we created the sin?Do we create our own envionment by what we do and say?
I guess that is why we should choose life and only do what the Father shows us. :icon_king:

lol on a side note, this smiley face --->  :icon_king: makes me happy. 

Offline onlytruth

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 485
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2009, 02:37:47 AM »
its a great icon...we'll be happy as we reign with Him! :icon_king: :icon_king: :icon_king:

jimmorgan

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2009, 12:53:39 AM »
I could be way off on this but...

God wants us to worship Him. God wants us to worship Him freely. As someone here said God don't want robots. God allowed sin into the world and His Son to die so that we can see, understand and appreciate how glorious God is.

The first few chapters of Romans would seem to indicate this. The Law was put in place to reveal to us how sinful we are and when we understand the Christ's work on the Cross we can really praise God in Spirit and in truth.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2009, 01:52:38 AM »
God did not allow His Son to die He ordained it.
Because of His Human Death, the Lord Jesus Christ brought HUMANITY with Him unto the Father.
Unattainable by the law.
His Spirit does the work.
The pattern Son says: Now! Follow me!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 02:28:47 AM by Beloved Servant »

NinjaWizards777

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2009, 05:03:53 AM »
I didnt do a whole lot of reading in this thread, but I feel, and have always felt...that evil and sin exist simply so that we can appreciate the good for what it is. If it didnt exist, we would have nothing to compare too and probably have no appreciation for it. Also, the existence of of those bad things fosters our dependence on the Father for something more than this life can offer us, which leads to a relationship with him.

In short...God allowed evil, for our ultimate good and relationship with him. And if that is the case, its only one more nail in the coffin for eternal torture, because if God allowed evil having forknowledge he would be himself evil because he knew that it would cause most of humanity to suffer forever. I believe God is much more loving and purposed than that

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2009, 05:07:11 AM »
Sin is simply missing the mark.
Jesus hit it.
Follow Him.

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2009, 05:18:58 AM »
I didnt do a whole lot of reading in this thread, but I feel, and have always felt...that evil and sin exist simply so that we can appreciate the good for what it is. If it didnt exist, we would have nothing to compare too and probably have no appreciation for it. Also, the existence of of those bad things fosters our dependence on the Father for something more than this life can offer us, which leads to a relationship with him.

In short...God allowed evil, for our ultimate good and relationship with him. And if that is the case, its only one more nail in the coffin for eternal torture, because if God allowed evil having forknowledge he would be himself evil because he knew that it would cause most of humanity to suffer forever. I believe God is much more loving and purposed than that

I agree.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2009, 11:11:34 AM »
I didnt do a whole lot of reading in this thread, but I feel, and have always felt...that evil and sin exist simply so that we can appreciate the good for what it is. If it didnt exist, we would have nothing to compare too and probably have no appreciation for it. Also, the existence of of those bad things fosters our dependence on the Father for something more than this life can offer us, which leads to a relationship with him.

In short...God allowed evil, for our ultimate good and relationship with him. And if that is the case, its only one more nail in the coffin for eternal torture, because if God allowed evil having forknowledge he would be himself evil because he knew that it would cause most of humanity to suffer forever. I believe God is much more loving and purposed than that

I agree.


Double agreed!

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12954
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2009, 11:51:54 AM »
I didnt do a whole lot of reading in this thread, but I feel, and have always felt...that evil and sin exist simply so that we can appreciate the good for what it is. If it didnt exist, we would have nothing to compare too and probably have no appreciation for it. Also, the existence of of those bad things fosters our dependence on the Father for something more than this life can offer us, which leads to a relationship with him.

In short...God allowed evil, for our ultimate good and relationship with him. And if that is the case, its only one more nail in the coffin for eternal torture, because if God allowed evil having forknowledge he would be himself evil because he knew that it would cause most of humanity to suffer forever. I believe God is much more loving and purposed than that

How about people that died at a very young age. They couldn't yet see the difference between good/evil happyness/sorrow etc.
Then they sorta bypassed the learning proces
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2009, 12:15:19 PM »
I didnt do a whole lot of reading in this thread, but I feel, and have always felt...that evil and sin exist simply so that we can appreciate the good for what it is. If it didnt exist, we would have nothing to compare too and probably have no appreciation for it. Also, the existence of of those bad things fosters our dependence on the Father for something more than this life can offer us, which leads to a relationship with him.

In short...God allowed evil, for our ultimate good and relationship with him. And if that is the case, its only one more nail in the coffin for eternal torture, because if God allowed evil having forknowledge he would be himself evil because he knew that it would cause most of humanity to suffer forever. I believe God is much more loving and purposed than that

How about people that died at a very young age. They couldn't yet see the difference between good/evil happyness/sorrow etc.
Then they sorta bypassed the learning proces

They might retain memories from the present life and God raises them up from infancy/a young age on the other side. In such a case they do experience a bit of the good/evil part of life, just not as much as others (just an idea). But in such a case, it might be asked: why does anybody experience a certain amount of joy/pain as opposed to anybody else? I mean, why did God create a person as evil as Hitler who will probably have to go through a lot of punishment and purifying as opposed to somebody who saved during this life?

Back to your original thought: babies that die early are probably part of the process which others (who do not die young) go through, as a part of the whole good/evil paradigm. That might sound a bit shallow, but I don't mean it to be... it's just an idea, and I don't wish to offend anybody who lost a young loved one.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12954
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2009, 12:30:06 PM »
Let me start with saying I find the whole teaching plan odd.
Don't you think God with His infinite capebilities just could created us with a pure Jesus like mind?

Ok, the parents may learn from the death of the child. But often the parents that didn't do anything wrong had such a faith.
Still that doesn't explain away the baby learning problem. If babies can be teached in heaven so can whole of humanity.
The whole thing seems so random. You already mentioned Hitler.
In the west the concern of many is to fight overweight and and the color of their 3rd cell phone this month.
The rest of the world is spending a whole day finding a grain of rice. Africa is part of that.
Is the average African so much more evil than the average American that they deserve(d) that faith/punishment/teaching?
And what does the the average American learn from it?
"Poor African. I will donate $2 next month if I can find a new cell phone on dicount."
So what we learn?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2009, 08:42:46 PM »
WhiteWings...

The way that I picture it is like a tapestry that God is weaving. Every single human being's life is like a thread in that tapestry. We are each learning things NOW, but when the tapestry is completed, and we gaze upon the finished picture, we will ALL learn exactly what God wanted us to learn by living this life on earth. Every life lived will benefit from every OTHER life lived, in this way. Our lives, EACH of our lives are threads in that tapestry... Mine, yours, the baby that dies at birth, the slave, the free, the rich, the poor, the abused, the abuser, the starving, the handicapped, the whole, healthy, unhealthy, every single life... is precious. Every single life is going to be part of this eternal (I say eternal because perhaps it will be like a monument almost...) tapestry that God is weaving... that will forever memoralize our experiences here walking this life with the knowledge of good and evil. Do you know what I mean? This life isn't the real life. This life is just the doorway into eternity. The suffering that happens now is nothing compared to the glory that will be revealed. Easier said than done if you are currently greatly suffering... but this will come to pass. And the tapestry will be made up of all of our lives and in the center of this tapesty, is the cross. God's act of love.

This life is a gift. Because we are experiencing love along with non-love so that we can truly understand what LOVE is. If this life was all there is, then yes... this life would not make sense. But this life is just the doorway to eternity. This life is preparing for us our REAL life. How better to understand something, then to actually EXPERIENCE it... (love versus non-love.)



No matter how long someone spends here.. they will ultimately learn what God wants them to learn by the tapestry of every life lived. We learn individually, and then as a whole. Just like it is on earth... we learn lessons as individuals, and we learn lessons as a whole.


Well, that's just the way I see it.
This life makes absolute perfect sense when I see it this way.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

NinjaWizards777

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2009, 12:09:06 AM »
How about people that died at a very young age. They couldn't yet see the difference between good/evil happyness/sorrow etc.
Then they sorta bypassed the learning proces

Thats a really good question, not even sure how to answer it personally. I would say people that die at a young age, would certainly factor into the learning process of those around them but yes it WOULD seem like they themselves by pass the process. I mean if their learning process is in heaven/hereafter/whatever than why arent all of ours?

I will certainly have to ponder this, but it may be one of those things I wont know til I die (not to sound like a fundie, haha)

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12954
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2009, 12:29:46 AM »
Sparrow,

I fully understand your explanation/view. It could very well be 100% true. But....
If God loves all his kids equally why am I a healty, wealthy, well fed, happy thread in the tapestry and so many others sick, poor, starving, sad threads in the tapestry.
I'm sure the result looks fine. But I rather be this Dutch thread than the average African thread during the weaving process of that tapestry.

Quote
The suffering that happens now is nothing compared to the glory that will be revealed.
But still I prefer the glory then and the semi-glory I have here...
I guess I'm veiled with a carpet :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1830
  • I watch, & am as a sparrow alone upon the rooftop.
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2009, 02:35:54 AM »
Sparrow,

I fully understand your explanation/view. It could very well be 100% true. But....
If God loves all his kids equally why am I a healty, wealthy, well fed, happy thread in the tapestry and so many others sick, poor, starving, sad threads in the tapestry.
I'm sure the result looks fine. But I rather be this Dutch thread than the average African thread during the weaving process of that tapestry.

Quote
The suffering that happens now is nothing compared to the glory that will be revealed.
But still I prefer the glory then and the semi-glory I have here...
I guess I'm veiled with a carpet :laughing7:

Yeah, but I don't think it's really meant to be "fair" on this side... I mean, I don't know how else to say that. Trust me, I have thought about this so many times, and I actually think about it everyday. I really do. I think that is part of my everyday thoughts... about the differences in people's lives. How one person can suffer so much, and another person can seem to get off relatively easy. But I think that God is making up for it on the other side somehow. You know how it says the the last shall be first... etc. I think about that a lot. Perhaps the amount of suffering here is mirrored in the amount of glory on the other side. Which does make sense because, and this is a horrible frivolous example I know but take someone who is mildly thirsty, another person who has been out working in the heat all day and is VERY thirsty, and someone else who has been roaming the desert for TWO days straight in scorching heat...  give each of them a glass of water.
Each of them is going to experience that glass of cold water in very different ways. Like I said, stupid example.. but it's kind of what is on my mind.

I don't know... but I just feel like God sees all. He notes the death of a sparrow, surely He sees all suffering that is going on. Remember this life is dust... it's over in an instant compared to our REAL destination, our REAL home. The verse about the woman in childbirth, her pains are horrible, but once the baby is born, the pains she suffered are nothing anymore... they are gone, the baby is here and that joy has taken over her. That's not to downplay the suffering in the first place.. but I just, I don't know.. it's hard to talk about because we don't know what is in our future. Things may be great now, but then tomorrow everything could change.  And we all suffer in different ways, even the well-fed could be suffering torments in their mind. Some suffer little, some suffer greatly and it isn't fair. But I think that the contributions of every life lived... I feel that they will forever be memorialized. Those who suffered the most, perhaps will shine a little brighter in heaven and we'll look at them perhaps a little differently. know what I mean?
Well... just some thoughts. Like I said, I do think about this a lot and  try to make sense of it the best way I can.

peace.. :HeartThrob:

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2009, 06:56:17 PM »
Which does make sense because, and this is a horrible frivolous example I know but take someone who is mildly thirsty, another person who has been out working in the heat all day and is VERY thirsty, and someone else who has been roaming the desert for TWO days straight in scorching heat...  give each of them a glass of water.
Each of them is going to experience that glass of cold water in very different ways. Like I said, stupid example.. but it's kind of what is on my mind.

Wow that's good sparrow!  They all get the same glass of water, some will appreciate it much more.  And I don't think these "rewards" are "eternal" either, in the sense that all will finally know the truth.  Some will appreciate it more then.  Others appreciate it more now.  In the end all will appreciate it.  But of course there is no end.  Where was I going with this?  Oh ya, good post sparrow!

NinjaWizards777

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2009, 04:18:49 AM »
at the end of the day...ETers rest in the knowledge of the "fact" that people have a choice to choose salvation in God, as for me though...I now rest in the knowledge that God is going to save all. I cant always answer the big questions, but I still grapple with them and can at least set my sights on what is in store for all of us :cloud9:

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2009, 04:21:22 AM »
" set my sights on what is in store for all of us "

Care to elaborate?

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2009, 04:30:56 AM »
And how does a son of God get to be a trendy, radical, bishop?

NinjaWizards777

  • Guest
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2009, 07:34:30 AM »
" set my sights on what is in store for all of us "

Care to elaborate?

that all will be saved and will experience the fullness of God, despite any evil that may befall us now or hereafter. I dont know how to be more elaborate than that lol


And how does a son of God get to be a trendy, radical, bishop?

what? lol

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Who create sin in the first place?
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2009, 07:39:01 AM »
Ninja,
I thought that you are the person depicted in the picture you publish.
That, dear one, is not YOU?