Author Topic: Who create sin in the first place? (Read 5122 times)

sheila · « **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2009, 03:31:11 PM »

yep,CP

It is all in the hands of God ....He creates and forms

us..whether for honorable or unhonorable use

1Samuel 10;6 And the spirit of the LORD shall come upon

thee and thou shall prophecy with them

AND SHALT BE TURNED INTO ANOTHER MAN

claypot · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2009, 04:17:16 PM »

That is the deep truth for sure. It is the truth that separates reality from fiction. The truth that causes much debate. You said a mouthful, Sheila.

cp

Molly · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2009, 04:46:29 PM »

Quote from: claypot on July 19, 2009, 04:55:38 AM

I've always wondered about some statements in Scripture........

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.1sam16.14

And it came to pass, when the [ evil ] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand:1sam16.23

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.1king22.23

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets,2chron18.22

and so on.

cp

14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

--1 Sam 16

This is interesting. The Spirit of the LORD leaves Saul before the evil spirit can trouble him. They are not both there at once.

But, David is like Jesus, in that the Spirit of the LORD remains with him.

13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.

--1 Sam16

claypot · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2009, 05:35:39 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 04:46:29 PM

Quote from: claypot on July 19, 2009, 04:55:38 AM
I've always wondered about some statements in Scripture........

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.1sam16.14

And it came to pass, when the [ evil ] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand:1sam16.23

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.1king22.23

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets,2chron18.22

and so on.

cp

14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

--1 Sam 16

Molly, you wrote……….

This is interesting. The Spirit of the LORD leaves Saul before the evil spirit can trouble him. They are not both there at once.

Molly, I notice you say the Spirit of the Lord leaves Saul………and then you go on to say before the 'evil spirit' can trouble him. Just being picky here but I notice you did not say 'an evil spirit from the Lord'.

Why did you omit 'from the Lord'?

cp

Molly · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2009, 05:37:42 PM »

Because we have Spirit and spirit in the verses.

Spirit of the LORD is referring to something very specific.

claypot · « **Reply #30 on:** July 19, 2009, 05:42:13 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 05:37:42 PM

Because we have Spirit and spirit in the verses.

Spirit of the LORD is referring to something very specific.

I don't understand. Is not evil spirit from the Lord not referring to something very specific?

cp

Molly · « **Reply #31 on:** July 19, 2009, 05:49:51 PM »

Quote from: claypot on July 19, 2009, 05:42:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 05:37:42 PM
Because we have Spirit and spirit in the verses.

Spirit of the LORD is referring to something very specific.

I don't understand. Is not evil spirit from the Lord not referring to something very specific?

cp

Of the LORD and from the LORD means different things.

It says the LORD is sending or allowing an evil spirit, not that the evil spirit is of him.

Unless you wish to call the Holy Spirit evil, which I don't think you want to do.

14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

--1 Sam 16

Molly · « **Reply #32 on:** July 19, 2009, 06:20:03 PM »

Maybe it would help to look at the Hebrew--

"But the Spirit"

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

"of the LORD"

H3068
יהוה
y'hôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

So "Spirit of the LORD" is rûach y'hôvâh in the Hebrew.

"and an evil"
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

"spirit"
H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

"from"

H854
את
'êth
ayth
Probably from H579; properly nearness (used only as a preposition or adverb), near; hence generally with, by, at, among, etc.: - against, among, before, by, for, from, in (-to), (out) of, with. Often with another preposition prefixed.

"the LORD"

H3068
יהוה
y'hôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

claypot · « **Reply #33 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:05:22 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: claypot on July 19, 2009, 05:42:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 05:37:42 PM
Because we have Spirit and spirit in the verses.

Spirit of the LORD is referring to something very specific.

I don't understand. Is not evil spirit from the Lord not referring to something very specific?

cp
Of the LORD and from the LORD means different things.

It says the LORD is sending or allowing an evil spirit, not that the evil spirit is of him.

Unless you wish to call the Holy Spirit evil, which I don't think you want to do.

14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

--1 Sam 16

Yes, but Molly, there are many other verses that we must do major gymnastics with if we are to follow your reasonings. I quoted just a few a couple of posts back.

Again why would God make it so complicated to the point of never really being able to say for certain? He knew we would be totally dumbfounded as to His word. He knew we would come to conclusions totally opposite His meaning BECAUSE OF the way He lets His Word be written. I wonder…………………………

I know the answer lies in the fact that we must have the mind of Christ to know anything as the natural mind receives nothing from the Lord God.

cp

Tim B · « **Reply #34 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:03:32 AM »

If God makes evil spirits, I don't think it's the same as God making sin. God created the possibility for sin, even on purpose, but it always seems to be another creature or being that does the sinning, and not God.

Similarly, I think God created the possibility for sin, and is in a sense, responsible for sin, but not guilty of sin. So he might have allowed sin/made sin possible, in a sense, but it doesn't meant he sinned by allowing sin/making sin possible.

WhiteWings · « **Reply #35 on:** July 20, 2009, 09:35:10 AM »

Hi Tim,
I understand your reasoning and can go along with it for the most of it. But I see it less black/white.

So if I place a mine field in your garden and the next day your wive blows up you blame her?
Afterall I just placed the mines (=possibility to sin) but your wife had a choice (not) to step on them (=sin)

Your quote revised:
Similarly, I think God created mines, and is in a sense, responsible for the death they cause, but not guilty of killing. So he might have allowed murder/killing possible, in a sense, but it doesn't meant he killed by creating mines.

Some "facts" as I see them:
a] God created everything.
b] God has absolute 100% total control how His design/creation acts.
c] He declares that His 'big dream' is a universe without sin.
d] He makes rules to avoid sin.
e] He knows noone is able to follow the rules because that's the way He designed things. (the scorpion that passes the river on the back of the frog)
f] And being fully aware of the possiblity to sin He places boobytraps...

Quote

If God makes evil spirits, I don't think it's the same as God making sin.

And what exactly is so evil about the evil spirits?
-> Possibility to sin
If the evil spirits where able to live sinless lives by supressing the evil inside of themselfs they would be good spirits.
-> That would mean the design is flawed.

claypot · « **Reply #36 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:06:09 PM »

WW, I like your way of putting things, I really do. You make me think anew.

No way around it, this is Gods game.

cp

Tim B · « **Reply #37 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:32:53 PM »

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2009, 09:35:10 AM

Hi Tim,
I understand your reasoning and can go along with it for the most of it. But I see it less black/white.

So if I place a mine field in your garden and the next day your wive blows up you blame her?
Afterall I just placed the mines (=possibility to sin) but your wife had a choice (not) to step on them (=sin)

Your quote revised:
Similarly, I think God created mines, and is in a sense, responsible for the death they cause, but not guilty of killing. So he might have allowed murder/killing possible, in a sense, but it doesn't meant he killed by creating mines.

Placing mines in somebody's yard seems a little sneaky xD I think a more accurate example would be putting a control panel in the back of your yard that has a big red button and a sign that says "DO NOT TOUCH RED BUTTON!!" (and if you press the button you and everyone else is infected with a virus that makes you do stupid things). Here I'm thinking more of the first sin though, with the whole tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Quote

Some "facts" as I see them:
a] God created everything.
b] God has absolute 100% total control how His design/creation acts.
c] He declares that His 'big dream' is a universe without sin.
d] He makes rules to avoid sin.
e] He knows noone is able to follow the rules because that's the way He designed things. (the scorpion that passes the river on the back of the frog)
f] And being fully aware of the possiblity to sin He places boobytraps...

Agree with everything here.

Quote

If God makes evil spirits, I don't think it's the same as God making sin.

And what exactly is so evil about the evil spirits?
-> Possibility to sin[/quote]

Wouldn't an evil spirit be an evil spirit, not because it has the possibility to sin, but because it DOES sin? I mean, if one were to infer that angels have free will, then they also have the possibility of sinning, and so they should be considered evil too. So, I think the doing evil makes a spirit evil, not simply just having the possibility of doing evil.

Quote

If the evil spirits where able to live sinless lives by supressing the evil inside of themselfs they would be good spirits.
-> That would mean the design is flawed.

Well, from God's perspective an evil spirit isn't a design flaw. It's designed to do exactly what it was meant to: be evil. It's just all a part of God's over all plan.

That's my

anyway.

Thanks for sharing your opinion WW, btw. It's nice to be able to talk to somebody that's not out to get ya. lol Seems like most people I talk to on a forum, besides this one, when they have a different point than mine, try and cut me down.

Peace!

WhiteWings · « **Reply #38 on:** July 20, 2009, 05:16:29 PM »

Quote from: Tim B on July 20, 2009, 04:32:53 PM

Quote
If God makes evil spirits, I don't think it's the same as God making sin.
And what exactly is so evil about the evil spirits?
-> Possibility to sin

Quote

Wouldn't an evil spirit be an evil spirit, not because it has the possibility to sin, but because it DOES sin? I mean, if one were to infer that angels have free will, then they also have the possibility of sinning, and so they should be considered evil too. So, I think the doing evil makes a spirit evil, not simply just having the possibility of doing evil.

Perhaps you are right in theory but in real life having an evil spirit means using it to sin.
I'm a murderer according to the Bible because I hate. An adulterer just because I look at things that are not mine....
"....all have sinned...."
So all have the evil spirit and use(d) it.
So imo: evil spirit = ability to sin = certainty of sinning
Ok we could argue about Jesus but I think my point is clear?

Quote

Quote
If the evil spirits where able to live sinless lives by supressing the evil inside of themselfs they would be good spirits.
-> That would mean the design is flawed.
Well, from God's perspective an evil spirit isn't a design flaw. It's designed to do exactly what it was meant to: be evil. It's just all a part of God's over all plan.

Exactly! That's what I mean. No design flaws by a flawless creator

Summary: We are designed with great love for red buttons we are not allowed to touch. Just to make things easy for us there are only 20 billion red buttons....
Me thinks Daddy is a bit naughty

Quote

Thanks for sharing your opinion WW, btw. It's nice to be able to talk to somebody that's not out to get ya. lol Seems like most people I talk to on a forum, besides this one, when they have a different point than mine, try and cut me down.

That's often because they feel insecure. They thought they understood things and then you start messing with their head

sheila · « **Reply #39 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:08:35 PM »

I kinda look at it like this...

A&E hadn't developed the ability to love and trust their

creator,yet. He developed this 'evil' contrast to show that His

spirit was good/best for man.Being naive they didn't know good

from evil. God created man for His spirit to dwell in...the

tokogae has a token of God's 'goodness' and token of evil..

the tree of life has the full measure of God's spirit..

when we reject our true husband[he that loves us] and accept

another...he has chosen our delusion..that this other will

show itself that it does not love but hates us...we see the fruit

of this expierence.Hosea 3;1 [go show your love to your wife

again] Hosea 2;7 then she will say,I will go back to my first

husband,for then I was better off then now.

Love must develope in our hearts for HIM. SOS 2;7

....do not arouse or awaken LOVE until it so desires

it is LOVE for a husband that keeps a woman from accepting

another...fear may have some dampening effect..but LOVE

IS LIKE A WALL

he is looking for the look of LOVE upon our faces..only then will

we see HIM face to face

the fire of His jealousy will not abide with anything less than

LOVE...you can't buy LOVE..it is the very ESSENCE OF GOD

and though many do not know it yet, it is the very essence of

man in His image.

Hosea 2;7,10 listen to His jealousy.. she will chase after her

lovers but not catch them....she has not ackowledged that I

WAS THE ONE...therefore I WILL TAKE AWAY...

...I will punish her for the days she burned incense to the Baals

[loved another]...but me she forgot...here HIS CRY OF A LOVE

NOT RETURNED....

He causes her to kow HE IS THE ONE WHO TRULY LOVES HER

...I am now going to allure her...I will lead her into the desert

and speak tenderly to her......

in that day YOU WILL CALL ME 'MY HUSBAND"

Cardinal · « **Reply #40 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:21:52 PM »

Beautiful, Sheila........

Blessings.....

sheila · « **Reply #41 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:50:01 PM »

floodwaters of good for nothing men[of sin] are causing the

woman to cry out ...take me away with you..hurry..

let the king bring me into his chambers...and freinds to

exclaim..we will praise your LOVE more than wine.

the Song of SONGS is about a LOVE RETURNED..

it is the DAY HIS HEART REJOICES...the Day the Last ADAM

says...at last..bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh

at the end of this 'exercize' of good and evil..all mankind

will KNOW WHO TRULY LOVES THEM...and KNOWING THIS

WILL IN RETURN TRULY LOVE HIM WITH THEIR WHOLE

HEART SOUL AND MIND

Cardinal · « **Reply #42 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:56:11 PM »

Sheila, you are SO timely, as always........excellent word in season.

Blessings....

Molly · « **Reply #43 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:57:40 PM »

Colossians 2:10
And ye are complete in him...

martincisneros · « **Reply #44 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:46:01 PM »

sheila, awesome demension of the Spirit of prophecy that's been on you today! I receive a prophet in the name of a prophet and receive the prophet's reward, in the Name of Jesus! (Matthew 10:41)

Tim B · « **Reply #45 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:15:06 PM »

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2009, 05:16:29 PM

Quote from: Tim B on July 20, 2009, 04:32:53 PM
Quote
If God makes evil spirits, I don't think it's the same as God making sin.
And what exactly is so evil about the evil spirits?
-> Possibility to sin

Quote
Wouldn't an evil spirit be an evil spirit, not because it has the possibility to sin, but because it DOES sin? I mean, if one were to infer that angels have free will, then they also have the possibility of sinning, and so they should be considered evil too. So, I think the doing evil makes a spirit evil, not simply just having the possibility of doing evil.
Perhaps you are right in theory but in real life having an evil spirit means using it to sin.
I'm a murderer according to the Bible because I hate. An adulterer just because I look at things that are not mine....
"....all have sinned...."
So all have the evil spirit and use(d) it.
So imo: evil spirit = ability to sin = certainty of sinning
Ok we could argue about Jesus but I think my point is clear?

Okay, so is your general point: only a person with an evil spirit will sin? Or, an evil spirit implies you WILL sin?

Also, this might come back to my general idea that humans are evil only in the sense of being imperfect compared to their perfect Father. I mean, can I blame a baby who has just come out of the womb as being a sinner? I doubt it (I don't even see how it could sin at this point lol). But I could blame it on being imperfect, and thus, liable to sin. Being imperfect is definitely something that is passed on genetically, and it also ties in with man struggling with the flesh, which to me, often seems to be the literal fleshly body with all its genetic factors. This might be a bit off subject (or maybe not), but I'm trying to comprehend all of this in my mind based on what you've said.

Quote

Exactly! That's what I mean. No design flaws by a flawless creator

Summary: We are designed with great love for red buttons we are not allowed to touch. Just to make things easy for us there are only 20 billion red buttons....
Me thinks Daddy is a bit naughty

lol WW, you crack me up!

Quote

That's often because they feel insecure. They thought they understood things and then you start messing with their head

Messing with people's head can actually be very healthy for them, I think. I've gotten messed with my head plenty of times over my 20 year life, and I definitely think I'm growing from it.

onlytruth · « **Reply #46 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:22:11 PM »

throwing a question out there for anyone...
when they sacrificed their children to some god...didn't God say ,He couldn't even have come up with that idea!
.....so if it wasn't God's idea,who came up with it?Does man have the ability to come up with or create this on his own?

Tim B · « **Reply #47 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:51:08 PM »

Quote from: onlytruth on July 20, 2009, 11:22:11 PM

throwing a question out there for anyone...
when they sacrificed their children to some god...didn't God say ,He couldn't even have come up with that idea!
.....so if it wasn't God's idea,who came up with it?Does man have the ability to come up with or create this on his own?

Hmm, good question. I've wondered about this too. Here's the text...:

Quote

Jeremiah 7:30-32 (Young's Literal Translation)

30For the sons of Judah Have done the evil thing in Mine eyes, An affirmation of Jehovah, They have set their abominations in the house On which My name is called -- to defile it,

31And have built the high places of Tophet, That [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, Which I did not command, Nor did it come up on My heart.

32Therefore, lo, days are coming, An affirmation of Jehovah, And it is not said any more, `The Tophet,' And `Valley of the son of Hinnom,' But `Valley of the slaughter,' And they have buried in Tophet -- without place.

Well, I was doing a bit of reading on biblegateway.com and ran across this verse:

Quote

Isaiah 30:33 (Young's Literal Translation)

33For, arranged from former time is Tophet, Even it for the king is prepared, He hath made deep, He hath made large, Its pile [is] fire and much wood, The breath of Jehovah, As a stream of brim stone, is burning in it!

This seems to suggest that God intended for Topheth to be created. Maybe all God is saying in Jeremiah is that it wasn't his heart's desire to burn children, but the evil desire of the sons of Judah, even if it was his will that they burn their children because if their wicked desires.

Think of Job. Satan was the one who wanted to have Job tested to see if he really followed God. God allowed Satan to do it. But was Satan's evil desire in testing Job the same as God's even though God allowed it? I don't think so. Satan simply wanted to make Job miserable and to insult God. God wanted Satan to do it for other reasons. So Satan's desire was not God's desire, even though God had planned for Satan to test Job.

Does that make sense?

WhiteWings · « **Reply #48 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:52:44 PM »

Quote from: Tim B on July 20, 2009, 10:15:06 PM

Okay, so is your general point: only a person with an evil spirit will sin? Or, an evil spirit implies you WILL sin?

WILL sin. And we all have a evil spirit. At least that is what I understand from the Bible.
If there are none sinners Jesus can not be the Saviour/Healer of all.
Even Jesus can't save what doesn't need to be saved.

Quote

Also, this might come back to my general idea that humans are evil only in the sense of being imperfect compared to their perfect Father. I mean, can I blame a baby who has just come out of the womb as being a sinner?

I think not. I would find it very odd. Age of accountability..... For Jews that is at 13. I bet that's not just a random number.
You could argue it should be 10 or 18 but clear is that it is no baby.

Quote

I doubt it (I don't even see how it could sin at this point lol).

Surely there are people that claim a baby is sinful. Because:
a] Born out of lust of his/her parents.
b] Passed on sin from Adam and Eve.

Not my opinion I have to add. And even if sin in inherited I doubt it very very much God will punish the baby for dying...

Quote

But I could blame it on being imperfect, and thus, liable to sin. Being imperfect is definitely something that is passed on genetically, and it also ties in with man struggling with the flesh, which to me, often seems to be the literal fleshly body with all its genetic factors.

Imperfect yes. But can we use that as an exuse for every thing we do wrong. Ok it's the evil spirit in us that makes us sin.
IMO we can't completely shut down that evil spirit. But I think we can at least slow it down.
I mean something instead of 10 lies a day 2 lies a day.

WhiteWings · « **Reply #49 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:10:29 AM »

Quote from: onlytruth on July 20, 2009, 11:22:11 PM

throwing a question out there for anyone...
when they sacrificed their children to some god...didn't God say ,He couldn't even have come up with that idea!
.....so if it wasn't God's idea,who came up with it?Does man have the ability to come up with or create this on his own?

I don't know exactly to explain this but I think God doesn't always says what He means.
It started when Adam and Eve hid themselfs after they ate the fruit.
God asked where there where. Then asked why they where hiding. Throughout the Bible God asks questions.
Does that mean He really didn't know the answer? He really didn't know where Adam and Eve where hiding?
Bit like rhetorical questions.

So when God saw the sacrifices in the valley of Hinnom (now Gehenna) do you think He really didn't think about it?
He even knew before the universe was created. So for me it simply means: "I would never give such cruel commands"

If God really was unable to come up with that idea it would mean:
a] Humans would at some points outsmart Him.
b] He isn't all knowing because it suprised Him that such things would happen.

It a bit like when it's past bedtime and the mother asks the child "Don't you think it's time to go to bed."
It's a command 'packaged' as a question. (rhetorical)
If God really asks questions to learn something it means He's not perfect.

My 2 euro cents.

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Author Topic: Who create sin in the first place? (Read 5122 times)

martincisneros