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Offline micah7:9

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Where/who was Jesus before
« on: April 30, 2010, 04:45:00 PM »
Where/who was Jesus before He was begotton of the Father through Mary?
I am given to understand that dna is from both father and mother, but the blood is from the father, and should this be true, then Jesus was not a Jew?
This I do not think would make a difference as to God's chosen people.
And I am told that Jesus came from the lineage of Mary< from David, not Joseph <David?
Just felt I should put in all the info that I am working with.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2010, 05:13:56 PM »
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 2The same was in the beginning with God.



14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

--John 1



15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

--John 1

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2010, 06:21:57 PM »

Genesis 3:15
and
Revelation 12:17
refer to her seed.
But women do not bear seed, they produce an egg.

This will be a topic of diverse opinion and all pray the Lord will bring His Wisdom and Understanding to those involved.

My opinion is, at this time, that the Lord Father created a second Adam in Mary from the dust of her womb,
just as the first Adam was created from the dust of the earth.
I do not believe, though, that the Father fertilized one of Mary's eggs, thus the Lord Jesus inheriting Adam's nature.
Mary, I believe, was a surrogate mother chosen of God, to bear the second Adam ó The New Creation.
 
Jesus, her seed, obtained his DNA from Mary,
but life is in the blood and His Life came from above.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2010, 07:40:26 PM »
I am given to understand that dna is from both father and mother, but the blood is from the father,
IMO blood is also formed from DNA.

The female part of the DNA remains unaltered for a many generations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA#Female_inheritance

Quote
and should this be true, then Jesus was not a Jew?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
Quote
According to halakha, the oldest normative definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is matrilineally a Jew by birth, or becomes one through conversion to Judaism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism
Quote
Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish.
So if Mary was Jewish Jesus was also.

She was: http://ldolphin.org/2adams.html


Quote
This I do not think would make a difference as to God's chosen people.
And I am told that Jesus came from the lineage of Mary< from David, not Joseph <David?
Both are from the linage of David. But does it matter? I mean Joseph was not the biological father...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2010, 08:01:44 PM »
DNA is not the thought for me, man has much to say today about DNA and I believe much of that thought process is a direct thinking to Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods
In my natural thinking this is a very bad place to be, but I know that God is in control.

Its the blood, which comes from the father is what I feel is important. I may be all wrong.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2010, 08:12:14 PM »
 :cloud9: From what He's shown me, He was the Word (as Spirit) MADE flesh, or natural, and is the Father's heart/soul.

The Word as Spirit is the Father's Seed, and a seed can only bear fruit after it's own kind, and the Father is His "kind".

He took Eve out of Adam to show him what was in his heart, He took Israel out into the wilderness to show them what was in their heart, and He took the Word "out" to SHOW us what was in the Father's heart. Blessings....

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2010, 08:13:59 PM »
He took the first Eve out the first adam. And the second Adam out of Eve :-)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2010, 08:19:51 PM »
Matthew gives us the genealogy of Jesus from the side of Joseph.   Matthew starts at Abraham and brings us to Joseph.

16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

--Mat 1


Matthew calls Jesus the son of David.  And we see here that Matthew refers to the generation of Jesus.  Matthew tells us this book is about the generation of Jesus.  That would be us, yes?


1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

--Mat 3



Luke gives the genealogy of Mary which takes us all the way to Adam and to God.

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God

--Luke 3



Jesus called himself the son of Adam...



Mary was a direct descendant of King David which gave Jesus the right to ascend the Jewish throne, both through Mary and through adoption by his foster father, Joseph. Mary's genealogy is supplied in Luke 3:23-38 . Dr. Henry Morris explains the genealogy in Luke:

"Joseph was clearly the son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16, so this verse [Luke 3:23 - says "son of Heli"] should be understood to mean "son-in-law of Heli." Thus, the genealogy of Christ in Luke is actually the genealogy of Mary, while Matthew gives that of Joseph. Actually, the word "son" is not in the original, so it would be legitimate to supply either "son" or "son-in-law" in this context. Since Matthew and Luke clearly record much common material, it is certain that neither one could unknowingly incorporate such a flagrant apparent mistake as the wrong genealogy in his record. As it is, however, the two genealogies show that both parents were descendants of DavidóJoseph through Solomon (Matthew 1:7-15), thus inheriting the legal right to the throne of David, and Mary through Nathan (Luke 3:23-31), her line thus carrying the seed of David, since Solomon's line had been refused the throne because of Jechoniah's sin" [Dr. Henry M. Morris, The Defender's Study Bible, note for Luke 3:23 (Iowa Falls, Iowa: World Publishing, Inc., 1995).].

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/mary-motherofjesus.html#genealogy



God always crosses his T's and dots his I's.





Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2010, 08:32:48 PM »
DNA is not the thought for me,
But still you mentioned it  :winkgrin:

Quote
man has much to say today about DNA and I believe much of that thought process is a direct thinking to Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods
In my natural thinking this is a very bad place to be, but I know that God is in control.
What is a bad place? DNA research?

Quote
Its the blood, which comes from the father is what I feel is important. I may be all wrong.
Simple there is none.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 12:28:47 AM »
DNA is not the thought for me,
But still you mentioned it  :winkgrin:

Quote
man has much to say today about DNA and I believe much of that thought process is a direct thinking to Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods
In my natural thinking this is a very bad place to be, but I know that God is in control.
What is a bad place? DNA research?

Quote
Its the blood, which comes from the father is what I feel is important. I may be all wrong.
Simple there is none.

As far as the dna, from what I have heard and read, medicne is quite lose to creating life. Ego in man is getting to think themselves in the form of gods. Thats all I meant.
I do not understand "simple there is none?"
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2010, 12:59:00 AM »
I do not understand "simple there is none?"
Mary was impregnated by the HS. HS has no blood so no blood can be transferred.

Why do you think the blood from teh father is more important than that of the mother? Jewish teaching seem to say teh mother is more important (in the question)
Quote
According to halakha, the oldest normative definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is matrilineally a Jew by birth, or becomes one through conversion to Judaism.
Mary was Jewish. So Jesus was born a Jew. Needless to say He also was very aware of Jewish teachings.
So the way I understand it Jesus was a Jew and the bloodline runs (also) via the women.  :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2010, 01:17:34 AM »
I do not understand "simple there is none?"
Mary was impregnated by the HS. HS has no blood so no blood can be transferred.

Why do you think the blood from teh father is more important than that of the mother? Jewish teaching seem to say teh mother is more important (in the question)
Quote
According to halakha, the oldest normative definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is matrilineally a Jew by birth, or becomes one through conversion to Judaism.
Mary was Jewish. So Jesus was born a Jew. Needless to say He also was very aware of Jewish teachings.
So the way I understand it Jesus was a Jew and the bloodline runs (also) via the women.  :2c:
Life is in the blood so it is important, Marys blood, Josephs blood is the life of the living creature, there is no power in their blood. but the blood from The Father is Life Giving. And I believe you are right that there is no blood in the HS, that causes me to think.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2010, 02:50:02 AM »
My  :2c::

Jesus was a Spirit being before he became human. He emptied himself. Mary was just a surrogate mother, she just carried Jesus for 9 months. Neither Mary nor Joseph was Jesus' parents. God the Father, a Spirit being is the Father of Jesus.

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2010, 06:47:20 AM »
My  :2c::

Jesus was a Spirit being before he became human. He emptied himself. Mary was just a surrogate mother, she just carried Jesus for 9 months. Neither Mary nor Joseph was Jesus' parents. God the Father, a Spirit being is the Father of Jesus.

CHB
I can understand that, but there is only one Spirit.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2010, 05:22:35 PM »
Don't understand the implication as to there being only one Spirit. (Heb. 12:9) Speaks of "the Father of Spirits".  Are we not going to be Spirit beings one day?  I know there is only one Holy Spirit.

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2010, 06:01:25 PM »
Don't understand the implication as to there being only one Spirit. (Heb. 12:9) Speaks of "the Father of Spirits".  Are we not going to be Spirit beings one day?  I know there is only one Holy Spirit.

CHB
I understand that He is the Father of spirits, and there is only ONE Holy Spirit, I believe when we become spirits it will be ONE SPIRIT.
Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2010, 08:27:54 PM »
We are part of his body--of his flesh and his bones.  But, I've long thought of the Holy Spirit as his blood, which we share as well.  [Blood is 95 percent water.]



Isaiah 32:15

Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest.

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2010, 08:29:55 PM »
yes, we will all be one as Jesus said he and his Father was one but we will still be individual spirit beings don't you think, just as Jesus and the Father were individuals? They were one in spirit but separate in body.

CHB

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 05:28:57 PM »
  Actually, Jesus was born of a woman. So Mary was Jesus' mother. She was impregnated, by whatever means the seed was planted. She carried Him in the biological union of the womb. Mary was (wheels within wheels) Earth(kosmos/chaos), Eve(humankind), Israel(born under law),Sarah(born by a promise)the Bride(a virgin servant pleasing unto God). Jesus was sown into all those wombs, an incorruptible seed, begotten to make all things new. Jesus was the son of man- a euphemism for His relationship to all mankind, as one of us, connected to us each and all by flesh. Jesus did not carry the Adamic nature through His Father, but received it through His mother and thus was tempted in all ways like as we. He was in a clay pot, like we are. He tabernacled in a frail mortal tent as we do. Death could not hold Him because He never yielded to the demands of the flesh. He reckoned the members of His body dead unto sin all the days of His life, living as a free spirit in the love of His Father - which consumed Him and was the driving force of His life, even as a child. "The wind blows where it wills.......so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Abraham's seed, according to the promise. The son of David, after the flesh, the inheritor of the throne of Israel. The Jew first and then the Gentile, as the revelation of God unfolded out of the chaos through Abraham, in whose seed(the seed being faith- a son of faith like Isaac, a son of sacrifice, a son of promise) all the nations would be blessed. Israel, as Abraham's seed, carried the promises and the oracles and the genealogy, as a Lampstand unfolding until the true light was born.

The firstborn of many brethren- "radiance of the Father's glory and express image (Gr charakter) of His nature."
The Head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him emerging out of the earth (the whole creation groans in travail eagerly awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God) Head first- Jesus the firstfruits from among the dead, the firstborn of all creation(as the Logos), filling all things till God be all in all.

Having partaken of flesh and knowing the weakness of it, as a priest, taken from among men, He is able to sympathize with our weakness, and intercede for us with the Father. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Having received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, He is able to "strengthen us with might by His Spirit in our inner man" to overcome, as He did, and, having the first fruits of the Spirit, we also travail until we receive the adoption of sons, even the redemption of our bodies. "Many sons unto glory", sharing the inheritance of the saints in the light, in the ages to come participating in the restitution of all things. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Brethren, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.


The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 05:58:32 PM »
  :cloud9: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2010, 02:09:15 AM »
Quote from: eaglesways
Jesus did not carry the Adamic nature through His Father, but received it through His mother and thus was tempted in all ways like as we. He was in a clay pot, like we are. He tabernacled in a frail mortal tent as we do.

Hi,

I don't think Jesus carried the Adamic nature through his earthly father or mother. Jesus was implanted in Mary the Holy Spirit. If Jesus had gotten his human body through Mary he would have been born with sin on him. Mary had nothing to do with Jesus being implanted in her womb. (Matt. 1:20) An angel appeared to Joseph saying, "fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for THAT WHICH IS BEGOTTEN IN HER IS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT".

He was born in human flesh and was tempted as we are but before he was born in the flesh he was with the Father. He was our creator.
(Heb. 2:14) "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also HIMSELF likewise TOOK PART of the same".

(John 1:14) And the Word WAS MADE FLESH and dwelled among us.

It says "the word was MADE flesh". The way I read this is, Jesus emptied himself of his glory and HE HIMSELF by the power of God, took on the form of flesh. He was placed in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit so that he could be a descendant of Abraham.

CHB

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2010, 03:13:22 AM »
 hi   CHB
You may be correct, but I do not see how He was the son of man or what His victory was if He did not have human fallible flesh as we do- and conquered it, thereby condemning sin in the flesh. The idea that He would have sin on Him if He was born with Adams natural human constitution may not be logically automatic, the possibility remains He resisted sin and overcame it. That He was born of a woman, born "under law" also tends to lead me to believe that He fulfilled the law through obedience, not by inherent sinlessness. Mary, His mother, was certainly a sinner. IMO He chose sinlessness- while being presented with other options by the world, His flesh, and the devil- everyday. How could He be tempted, "like as we are", if He had no flesh to conquer? How could He sympathize with our weakness by experience- "a high priest.....taken from among men"? It is written in Adam all men die, I am not sure it is written, "In Adam all men sin"- I'll have to look at that. I think we choose to sin with our father Adam, but Jesus, having God as His Father, chose not to sin, even though, having Eve as His mother, His flesh was as subject to temptation, and free to sin, as yours or mine. Peace, John
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 03:20:59 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline CHB

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2010, 09:03:52 AM »
hi   CHB
You may be correct, but I do not see how He was the son of man or what His victory was if He did not have human fallible flesh as we do- and conquered it, thereby condemning sin in the flesh. The idea that He would have sin on Him if He was born with Adams natural human constitution may not be logically automatic, the possibility remains He resisted sin and overcame it. That He was born of a woman, born "under law" also tends to lead me to believe that He fulfilled the law through obedience, not by inherent sinlessness. Mary, His mother, was certainly a sinner. IMO He chose sinlessness- while being presented with other options by the world, His flesh, and the devil- everyday. How could He be tempted, "like as we are", if He had no flesh to conquer? How could He sympathize with our weakness by experience- "a high priest.....taken from among men"? It is written in Adam all men die, I am not sure it is written, "In Adam all men sin"- I'll have to look at that. I think we choose to sin with our father Adam, but Jesus, having God as His Father, chose not to sin, even though, having Eve as His mother, His flesh was as subject to temptation, and free to sin, as yours or mine. Peace, John

Hi,

I did not say Jesus was not flesh, he was, I just don't think it came from an earthly parent. He was born of a woman, he did have human fallible flesh. I don't remember reading that Jesus RESISTED sin. He was put in, or put on a body of sinful flesh.

(Phil. 2:7) BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON HIM the form of a servant, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.

CHB


Offline jabcat

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2010, 09:11:30 AM »
Any thoughts on Jesus being "perfected through suffering"?  (Hebrews 2:10, 5:9, 7:28)
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Where/who was Jesus before
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2010, 09:12:10 AM »
You may be correct, but I do not see how He was the son of man or what His victory was if He did not have human fallible flesh as we do- and conquered it, thereby condemning sin in the flesh.
Good point; what did He conquer if He was so far above it? OTOH having a heavenly instead of a earthly father does make Him a class apart. On top of that He had strong guidance of the HS. Concidering that He was not compareble to a average man.

NASPsa 8:5 Yet Thou hast made him a little lower than God, And dost crown him with glory and majesty!
NASHeb 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...