Author Topic: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?  (Read 1821 times)

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orlando02

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What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« on: November 20, 2010, 12:44:06 AM »
.... or what would have been happenning if he had not come and had not died? Annihilation? Living an unsatisfying life as a ghost in Sheol? Do you literally believe this unsatisfactory situation was punishment for disobedience, as Genesis suggests? And if so how did Jesus's life and death change this?

Offline thinktank

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 01:07:56 AM »
Theres very little said about the afterlife. But I have found that Samuel who lived after God, was brought up from sheol and said to Saul, "why have you disturbed me"

That could mean he was sleeping in sheol, or it can mean he was doing something in sheol another life in sheol perhaps  :dontknow: , that was good or at least good enough for him to say "why have you disturbed me". If he was not enjoying himself he would have thanked Saul for bringing him up. Second reference I found was in the book of Job. This time it dealt with a wicked man, and the wicked man or ghost was wandering around unsatisified lodging and making a home in desolate villages, that are about to collapse.

The gospel says there is no rest for the wicked, so it seems that a wicked man at death is unsatisified for he cannot do much as a ghost and cannot do his wicked deeds and another refernce in the bible is that the wicked avoids the light lest their deeds be reproved. In the flesh a man can hide his wickedness, but as a ghost it seems one cannot hide their wickedness from God, for according to David even if they hide themselves in hell, God is there.

It is uncertain what happens to a ghost concerning Jesus sacrifice, can a ghost repent and be cleansed (perhaps), can they enter heaven without Jesus? Tough question.

Jesus said no man comes to the father except through me.

I personally don't know how it works, if indeed man has a ghost after life, for there are many scripture which say one thing and can also support another thing. E.g do old testament ghost saints such as Samuel have to stay in sheol until, Christ came to give them life. Perhaps. Because Jesus said Now is the dead raised. Also at his resurection many saints arose with him.

But again that assumes they have to wait in the process of time. Perhaps a dead soul in sheol lives in time also and also perhaps has access to the gospel and so the same message applies to them. E.g the spirit of the christ preached to the spirits in prison, so a possilbility that the gospel is also in sheol.
 :2c:




Offline CHB

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 03:30:50 AM »
(Ecc. 9:5-6) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 03:47:32 AM »
(Ecc. 9:5-6) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

CHB

Very well put.  :grin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 03:53:35 AM »
(Ecc. 9:5-6) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

CHB

That seems a strong verse that supports no conciousness after death. But.....the book mainly deals with a mans despair in things that pertain to living life upon the earth, gaining riches, knowledge etc all aquired under the sun, all of which are take away and destroyed in death. For naked we come in and naked we go, none of that knowledge, love and riches can we carry to sheol and those who die are no longer remembered but forgotten and are no longer rewarded upon earth.
 :2c:



Offline CHB

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 04:11:31 AM »
Job 14:12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep,

CHB

Offline thinktank

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 04:42:13 AM »
Thats a long time away  though. Notice it says man shall not awake till the heavens be no more.

When do the heavens pass?

At the great white throne judgment, which is at least a thousand years from now.

When heaven and earth pass away.

Is this literal passing away?

Jesus said "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not"


from a spiritual view point one can argue that the sleep they awake from is spiritual death, seperation from Christ, that they won't awake to Christ until they are thrown into the lake of fire, at which they repent and call upon Jesus to save them, for they can no longer hide their sins in sheol, because the heavens and earth pass away and there is no more place for the dead, so they must repent in the lake of fire and call upon Jesus to save them, for nothing unclean can enter the gates of Jerusalem.

I was allways against the idea of God forcing people to be saved, it was too similar to ET teachings, but if its for their own benefit, just like a parent might force their kid to eat vegtables, or smack them until they stop stealing, it seems possible that God could use Force to bring people from their spiritual slumber into the light, that suffering may endure for the night but joy cometh in the morning. I supppose to someone in darkness in the depths of sheol they are already suffering in their own darkness, so for God to forcefully cast them into the lake of fire is trading one type of suffering for another, except that God way of suffering salts them with fire so that they will eventuallly come to the light of Christ and be saved through his blood.

 :2c:




Offline jabcat

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 05:01:29 AM »
Jesus said "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not"


from a spiritual view point one can argue that the sleep they awake from is spiritual death, seperation from Christ, that they won't awake to Christ until they are thrown into the lake of fire, at which they repent and call upon Jesus to save them, for they can no longer hide their sins in sheol, because the heavens and earth pass away and there is no more place for the dead, so they must repent in the lake of fire and call upon Jesus to save them, for nothing unclean can enter the gates of Jerusalem.

I was allways against the idea of God forcing people to be saved, it was too similar to ET teachings, but if its for their own benefit, just like a parent might force their kid to eat vegtables, or smack them until they stop stealing, it seems possible that God could use Force to bring people from their spiritual slumber into the light, that suffering may endure for the night but joy cometh in the morning. I supppose to someone in darkness in the depths of sheol they are already suffering in their own darkness, so for God to forcefully cast them into the lake of fire is trading one type of suffering for another, except that God way of suffering salts them with fire so that they will eventuallly come to the light of Christ and be saved through his blood.

 :2c:

 :thumbsup:   I personally see it as God setting the conditions for repentance, the bowing and confessing - which can only be done IN the Holy Spirit.     I told my agnostic brother once, that I believe he will believe - "when you stand in shame and regret, in the direct Presence of the most awesome, beautiful Being you could ever imagine, why wouldn't you believe"?   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 05:48:36 AM »
.... or what would have been happenning if he had not come and had not died? Annihilation? Living an unsatisfying life as a ghost in Sheol? Do you literally believe this unsatisfactory situation was punishment for disobedience, as Genesis suggests? And if so how did Jesus's life and death change this?
The wages of sin is death. Not torturure. Not living as a ghost in sheol. (is that really being death?)
So imo those people where really very dead.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 06:58:30 AM »
(Ecc. 9:5-6) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

CHB

 :cloud9: Not to be disagreeable with you CHB, but I don't believe that's what it's saying. "The dead know not anything", taken in context is stated in contrast to, "the living KNOW that they shall die".

It's not that the dead don't know anything because they don't have a type of consciousness, it's that they don't know anything of value in their disembodied state, APART from the Spirit of Christ, the Word of God, revealing Himself to them. That He does reveal Himself to them in their season, is the root of UR.

In other words, apart from His appearing, they can't KNOW (as a man knows his wife, ie. is one with her) or perceive anything beyond where they are and what condition they are in, because without their spirit-to-Spirit communing with Him, they are the "lost".

Fortunately for us, He leaves the 99 and goes back for the 1, because it is not good for man (spirit) to be alone (minus his soul/helpmeet). That division of soul and spirit at the death of the body, is also not being made in His image. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 07:04:28 AM »
without the spirit to guide them, could they be lost in space I wonder hmmm. Not sure if sheol is a place under the earth, under the soil, or just a spiritual place of no boundaries, in that case they could go to mars or pluto and be "lost" there. But I think thats hardly what I call "lost" if they can visit exotic places etc, and there is no scripture for it, but does talk about those who are undr the earth praise him etc.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:07:48 AM by thinktank »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 07:06:39 AM »
(Ecc. 9:5-6) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

CHB

 :cloud9: Not to be disagreeable with you CHB, but I don't believe that's what it's saying. "The dead know not anything", taken in context is stated in contrast to, "the living KNOW that they shall die".

It's not that the dead don't know anything because they don't have a type of consciousness, it's that they don't know anything of value in their disembodied state, APART from the Spirit of Christ, the Word of God, revealing Himself to them. That He does reveal Himself to them in their season, is the root of UR.

In other words, apart from His appearing, they can't KNOW (as a man knows his wife, ie. is one with her) or perceive anything beyond where they are and what condition they are in, because without their spirit-to-Spirit communing with Him, they are the "lost".

Fortunately for us, He leaves the 99 and goes back for the 1, because it is not good for man (spirit) to be alone (minus his soul/helpmeet). That division of soul and spirit at the death of the body, is also not being made in His image. My  :2c: Blessings....

Yes they are dead and they no not anything. Dead is dead.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 07:11:39 AM »
without the spirit to guide them, could they be lost in space I wonder hmmm. Not sure if sheol is a place under the earth, under the soil, or just a spiritual place of no boundaries, in that case they could go to mars or pluto and be "lost" there. But I think thats hardly what I call "lost" if they can visit exotic places etc, and there is no scripture for it, but does talk about those who are undr the earth praise him etc.

 :cloud9: Do a study on it..... :winkgrin:

Philippians 5:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 07:21:38 AM »
I understand your frustrations, the bible can be very frustrating. I think the biggest problem is language translations etc where meanings change over time, so when God says to Adam he shall die, but yet does not die, it becomes confusing, as to why doesn't God stop ponsing about and give the true meaning of death. I guess the answer is either translation issues, or that God did not fully explain to Adam what death really meant and expected him to have child like faith, or perhaps even you are correct micah and that dead means unconcious death, but percentage wise my faith draws me towards the concious after death idea. Some might say if one has a true revelation they are 100%, perhaps in some cases, but I think a little bit of doubt is allways there as resistance on most doctrines and helps to build up faith muscles, which if the doctrine is built upon sand, will eventually collapse.

Offline thinktank

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 07:29:38 AM »
without the spirit to guide them, could they be lost in space I wonder hmmm. Not sure if sheol is a place under the earth, under the soil, or just a spiritual place of no boundaries, in that case they could go to mars or pluto and be "lost" there. But I think thats hardly what I call "lost" if they can visit exotic places etc, and there is no scripture for it, but does talk about those who are undr the earth praise him etc.

 :cloud9: Do a study on it..... :winkgrin:

Philippians 5:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

I'm quite good at revelation but no so good at remembering things :laughing7: thanks for reminding me. But I was looking at whether sheol is possible to extend beyond the earth, but I guess that goes into speculation, for I think sheol is limited to under/upon the earth somehow. I just hope they have some kind of lights down there.
 :2c:


Offline Lefein

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2010, 07:35:42 AM »
Cosmologically speaking, it is probably not physically beneath the Earth, but physically in a "lower existence" symbolically represented by the idea of "beneath the earth" which is synonymous to the grave.

To put it more simply - six feet under the earth = literal lower existence which is not literally six feet in the grave, in the cosmological existence of things; this contrasted with Heaven which is not literally on the edge of space, but is a literal higher existence above the earthly realm.  :2c:
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2010, 07:51:28 AM »
I'm quite good at revelation but no so good at remembering things :laughing7: thanks for reminding me. But I was looking at whether sheol is possible to extend beyond the earth, but I guess that goes into speculation, for I think sheol is limited to under/upon the earth somehow. I just hope they have some kind of lights down there.
 :2c:

 :cloud9: Sin is the spiritual equivalent of what gravity is in the natural. Our soul is literally weighed down with sin, creating an unjust balance, ie. something He said He hates, and creates an unequal yoke. The spirit, on the other hand, "rises" and returns to the One who sent it. The soul would like to ascend to God with the spirit, but our "Jacob" (means heel catcher also, not just supplanter) latches onto the last part to leave the ground, ie. our heel. Ring any bells?  :winkgrin:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Interestingly, not by coincidence, the word translated "bruise" in this passage is translated "cover" in Psalm 139, the psalm that speaks of making one's bed in hell/sheol......

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say , Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:54:30 AM by Cardinal »
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orlando02

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2010, 09:11:00 AM »
Thanks for the answers - I have thought before that the episode with Samuel's ghost seems to suggest that people continued to exist as spirits in Sheol, but it's not really clear if they are conscious or "sleeping" or what; and as some people have said, there are verses suggestive of complete destruction. It would be nice if the Bible could be a bit clearer sometimes. As for where Sheol is, I guess you could say the same for Heaven as well, for example, the usual modern explanation being that they are in a different dimension or whatever, not literally under or above the Earth.

Offline jabcat

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 12:52:04 PM »
It would be nice if the Bible could be a bit clearer sometimes.

We do see bits and pieces.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter.  Pr. 25:2

God's a great big, perfect plan.  He's bringing us there.  :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 10:21:03 PM »
(Ecc. 9:5-6) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

CHB

 :cloud9: Not to be disagreeable with you CHB, but I don't believe that's what it's saying. "The dead know not anything", taken in context is stated in contrast to, "the living KNOW that they shall die".

It's not that the dead don't know anything because they don't have a type of consciousness, it's that they don't know anything of value in their disembodied state, APART from the Spirit of Christ, the Word of God, revealing Himself to them. That He does reveal Himself to them in their season, is the root of UR.

In other words, apart from His appearing, they can't KNOW (as a man knows his wife, ie. is one with her) or perceive anything beyond where they are and what condition they are in, because without their spirit-to-Spirit communing with Him, they are the "lost".

Fortunately for us, He leaves the 99 and goes back for the 1, because it is not good for man (spirit) to be alone (minus his soul/helpmeet). That division of soul and spirit at the death of the body, is also not being made in His image. My  :2c: Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,

It's ok to be disagreeable with me, doesn't make me love you any less. I don't mind disagreement it makes me search and study to see whether those things are true or not.

Anyway, are you saying that the dead are conscious in the grave, or are you talking about being spiritually dead? Do you think that, say, Jacob, Job, and others have communication with God now?

Jesus said that Lazarus was sleeping, then he said Lazarus was dead. If we sleep when we die, we still know nothing. When I sleep, I dream but that's because I am not dead.

What about these verses? (Psalms 115:17) The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.  (Psalms 6:5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks.

It sounds like David was saying, when I am dead I cannot praise you or remember you.

CHB
 

Offline Lefein

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Re: What was happening to people after they died before Jesus came?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2010, 10:29:46 PM »
Being "dead" (lifeless; Godless) is about as far away from being in "life" (Life, Truth; God) as possible.

Who praises God when they are far from him?  Certainly not the devils, nor the isolated pagans who do not know Life at all (or very much).

Certainly, the further you are from God;Life;Truth;Wisdom the more Godless;Dead;Deluded;Unknowing-Ignorant one is.

Indeed, one who is dead is absent of life, one who is dead is far from life, one who is dead is far from truth, one who is dead is far from wisdom, and being dead, is likewise deluded, and likewise ignorant. 

Speculation; though animated, conscious, he or she might yet be?  Lost [hint hint] even?  Like a lost child who knows nothing of where they are, or a lost person with Alzheimer who does not even know who they are, and are like babes again without memory, wandering aimlessly?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 10:33:10 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.