Author Topic: What the #$%@ is hell!?  (Read 1826 times)

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Paul

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What the #$%@ is hell!?
« on: May 14, 2008, 06:55:13 AM »
I'm completely confused as to what "hell" is, and I'm dying for clarification.

"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18:8-9)

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" (Mark 9:43)

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him." (Revelation 6:8)

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:12-14)

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42)

"...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)


Revelation 20:14 is mainly what's throwing me off...

« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 07:01:39 AM by Paul »

jabcat

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 07:14:24 AM »
Hi Paul.  You may want to hit the link to "What The Hell Is Hell" on the TM homepage.  It will help.  Briefly, I'll add my  :2c:.  I understand "hell" to be a mistranslation of several words from the Greek and Hebrew.  Perhaps mistranslated at times due to ignorance, perhaps at times to serve an agenda of control and/or fear.

"Hell" literally means along the lines of "covered over".  The words Gehenna (garbage dump outside Jerusalem in Jesus' day where bodies were thrown and burned, where the "worm died not [perpetually eating the flesh of dead bodies] and fire wasn't quenched" [until it had served its purpose])...the bodies of the Jewish religious leaders were actually thrown into Gehenna with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD ; Hades (grave); and the Lake of Fire (either a literal fire that is for correction and purification [brimstone has to do with purification], or God's direct holy presence that will convict, cleanse, purge, etc.) are 2 reasonable interpretations of LoF;  among others, those words/terms have been lumped together in the Dark Age translations and perpetuated to today, to be translated and taught as "hell".

Hope this quick word helps some...God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 07:16:27 AM by jabcat »

Offline firstborn888

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 07:20:54 AM »

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:12-14)

Revelation 20:14 is mainly what's throwing me off...



The only way to avoid the confusion is to separate Sheol/Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus and the lake of Fire. They are all different things and lumping them together is the source of all the confusion. I think the link Jabcat gave you has the info..
 - Byron

Paul

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 08:43:06 AM »
How could the KJV translators create such a glaring inconsistency?

jabcat

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 08:54:07 AM »
Several thoughts, possibilities, pray about what God would show you about this;

they were told to translate in no way that would change what the church already believed/was practicing

perhaps God's will was to veil some things for a time.  He veils and reveals as He wills and as suits His overall great plan and purposes.

much translation and perpetuation of such teachings as "hell" are due to denominational/doctrinal bias, i.e., reading and teaching according to the TRADITIONS OF MEN...so it "keeps on going"

there had been much paganism brought into the church during the Dark Ages as pagans were either accepted and/or forced to confess "Christianity"...rather than being regenerated to the truth, the "church" and the pagans grew into apostacies together.  Dante's Inferno was apparently an influence on "hell" teachings

it served the church's purposes of power and control through fear to teach eternal torment, and that following the official church doctrines was the way to escape...including turning over the $

the earliest manuscripts agree with each other app. 96-99%+.  God said His Word (logos) is forever [to the ages] settled in heaven.  So when God spoke and speaks, we can trust it.  However, our task is to find out as closely as we can to what God originally spoke, which means cutting through translational issues, as well as revelation by the Holy Spirit.  Scripture also says it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search it out...so again, IMO, God has a big plan, and part of that involves veiling and revealing according to His time frame and purposes...He is showing some awesome things...if we'll seek His truths in accurately translated, rightly understood, and Spirit revealed scripture and prayer...

Someone else will surely add to this....God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 09:06:02 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 09:03:51 AM »
As Byron said, there's multiple words in the Hebrew and Greek of the Old and New Testaments that the KJV lumps together with the one English word "Hell."  First of all, there's no "Hell," in the way that Hollywood and some Churches would have you to believe.  I'll have something prepared along these lines that'll give it a passage by passage breakdown for people EVENTUALLY, but with a Young's Concordance, if you're using the KJV, you'll be able to find out which are the passages that have "Gehenna" as the basis for what they're mistranslating as "Hell," which passages are "Hades" that they're mistranslating as "Hell," and which Passage is "Tartarus" that they're mistranslating as "Hell" in the New Testament.  "Sheol" is the word mistranslated in the Old Testament as "pit," and "Hell."

From the Old Testament Hebrew word "Sheol" to the New Testament Greek word "Hades," these are direct translations of each other and are simply the English word "grave."

The Lake of Fire, or Tartarus, which is only called "Tartarus" once in one of Peter's epistles is mentioned in Matthew 25, 1Corinthians 5, and this passage in Revelation 20:14 that's been bothering you.  Again, there's only one specific passage with the actual word "Tartarus" in the Greek text, but by comparing Scripture with Scripture, then you discern that this "Lake of Fire" is very simply the state of having all of your works burned away from your life that are unfit for the eternal glory that you're destined for in Christ.  This does not necessitate afterlife punishment.  This is the fire prepared for the devil and his angels with which God is burning away sinful acts and making one's life clean and cleared of all that would be unfit to pass down to future ages.

The passages regarding "Hell" that get mistranslated from the word "Gehenna," as you examine the context that that word "Gehenna" is used in each time that that particular Word is used, then you discover that it's the setting on fire of the course of your life by the tongue.  It's the effects of false teaching, abuses of the tongue, abusiveness with the tongue, etc., and it's what comes upon your body and soul, children and disciples around you from what you speak and from the doctrine of your life that's weaved around your life from the songs, entertainment, teachings, and anything else involving words that's in your life that's unfit for eternal glory through Jesus Christ.  Again, it's what burns in your body, soul, children that you influence, and any type of disciples of any kind that the course of your life would have, whether officially or unofficially.  It's punishment that you receive from being around the wrong words.  Jesus said that it's better to fall into the hands of someone that can destroy your body, as in the case of a terrorist, than to fall into the hands of him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.  The KJV will capitalize the "him," but Jesus immediately contrasted the "him" that He was talking about with the goodness of God in the same context.  So, capitalizing the "him" in that context couldn't be accurate.  An important concern about this, and between "Tartarus," and "Gehenna" is explained most of the suffering of the world -- but neither necessitate afterlife punishment.

And Sheol, or Hades is simply the grave or the state of the body between your death and your bodily resurrection by Jesus Christ so that you can enjoy life on the New Earth.  Jesus Christ said about His soon coming crucifixion in John 12:31-33 that back then:

31. Now is come the judgment of this world.  Now the prince of this world is cast out.
32. And I, if I be lifted up, I'll draw all men to Myself.
33. This He said indicating the type of death that He would die.

He wasn't just indicating the crucifixion by which He'd die, but the effects of the crucifixion being the judgment of the world, the prince of this world being cast out, and the drawing of all of mankind to Himself.

St. Paul said in 2Corinthians 5 that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, because all of us were in Christ when He died.  And through appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, whether we're good or bad, we'll receive the gratuity of grace according to Romans 5, because 2Corinthians 5 goes on to explain that God made Jesus to be sin for us, Who knew no sin, so that we'd be made the righteousness of God in Him.  Each of us will receive the things that were done in His Body, whether we're good or bad, because it was for all of us.

There's a gnostic myth that many Churches function under of initiation before Christ will die for the person involved, that somehow only when you come to Christ of your own free will that only then will the crucifixion be for you.  But that's an error because 1Corinthians 15:22 says that As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Some will try to argue with this with their myth of cultic initiation into Christianity that they've borrowed from the gnostics that those "in Christ" are only the pious who've recognized their need for Him.  But Colossians 1:15-20 says that all people were in Christ before they were in Adam.  Romans 5 and 1Corinthians 15 are teaching us about the effects of the death of two men.  That's the subject.  That's the context within which we're to interpret the first and last Adam.

When Adam died, it was the death of all men.  When Christ died, He died for all men; all were reckoned in Him according to 2Corinthians 5.  Therefore, all will be made alive unto God through Jesus Christ.  And the work of the Cross will work in each life BECAUSE it was for all men, and not because they were so wise and discerning before it was forever too late that they recognized their need for Him -- as though God were only providing under grace another "survival of the fittest" as people had in Old Testament times.  As in the death of Adam all die, even so in the death of Jesus Christ all will be made alive.  We're saved by His life, according to Romans 5, and according to His faith as both Romans and Galatians teach us.  He in His High Priestly Ministry has set a date with each individual that He won't be late for.  1Timothy chapter 2 says that Jesus Christ being the ransom for all is the Good News that WILL BE testified IN DUE TIME, as though Paul were indicating that the fullness of this message wasn't necessarily for the understanding of his generation, although he was systematically laying down the foundation for it's understanding when the times of Visitation from the Presence of the Lord would fall upon the future ages, of which we're now a part of.

Jesus Christ will never give up on you or anyone that you've ever know of, in person or by reputation.  He'll keep on seeking and saving the lost until the very last Prodigal Son has returned home.  Revelation 5:13, speaking the end from the beginning of the book of Revelation, gives you a very beautiful picture of all beings in heaven, earth, under the earth, in the sea, and everywhere in between singing the praises of Jesus Christ and of our Father in heaven!

martincisneros

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 09:55:11 AM »
BTW: the judgment seat of Christ is the Cross :cloud9:

martincisneros

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 11:50:07 PM »
One thing that I wanted to clarify 'cause I've written quite a few posts along these lines of getting a bit radical about no afterlife punishments whatsoever.  There's a difference between the particularistic stream within Scripture and the universalist stream within Scripture.  By the particularistic stream within Scripture, instead of using that to point to endless damnation for those who fall short, I'm personally referring instead to the difference between the "called out ones" and the world.  Life and that more abundantly is God's free gift to each individual creature in all of Creation through Jesus Christ.  However, there is a difference between those called to rule the entire multiverse with Christ.  And by multiverse I do mean more than one universe.  And this is contrasted in Scripture with those who are simply pertaining to this particular eon or world.  There are those who are called to inherit all things, and those who are simply called to be inherited.

Here's where it gets a bit sticky with obedience issues, doing what it takes to "have a better resurrection," repentance, discipleship, ministry and submission to godly ministry for the purpose of working with ministry gifts to disciple the nations in the hopes of creating a world full of people who are inheritors of all things, etc.  With this area of redemption, then comes the list of things in Paul of "those who do such things won't inherit the Kingdom of God," because those who are doing those things aren't walking out the pattern of what God's wanting to replicate in every universe.  God won't allow that seed to go any further.  It dies here.  This doesn't mean going to Hell, but it can mean missing out on something precious as Christ is working together with some people that'll obey Him to tear down the walls between all of the different universes until there's one unified Creation to Present to the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28.

Now, Acts 17 says that God has commanded all men everywhere to repent, because He has set a day when He'll judge the world through Jesus Christ.  Does this nullify what I've previously said about John chapter 12?  Not at all.  It says in 1Peter chapter 4 to live right because Jesus Christ is ready to judge the living and the dead.  And then it talks about those who died in the days of Noah because of their sin.  The judgment of the dead is their resurrection and what your capacities are and what's delegated to you with your resurrection.  The judgment of the living is essentially how you will die.  The events leading to your death and the type of death that you die seems to be your judgment in 1Peter chapter 4 when you compare the verse about Jesus being ready to judge the living and the dead with the verse immediately afterwards about those who died really horrible deaths in Noah's day, but now live through Jesus Christ as members of God's Creation rather than as inheritors of all things who transcend all of the worlds.  Those who missed out on that (i.e. their own personal day of judgment in this life) through no fault of their own, such as abortion, miscarriage, and perhaps in other ways that people refuse to believe was their judgment day, then we're talking about how things work out between that time and their resurrection with their growth and submission to the Lord beyond the veil of the flesh in the Presence of the Lord where they're at right now.

I do believe it's possible to recapture lost ground after one has died and to become an inheritor of all things.  I just think that it's on the unlikely side because "Heaven" is soooo filled with soooooo many distracting PLEASURES!!!!!  Heaven is surprisingly sensual.  That it's perhaps a little harder to listen as closely to teachers and to live a self-restrained life that would strengthen and prepare one for God's purposes in each of the different universes is the dilema for anyone thinking that they'd simply play catch-up later.

There are great rewards for living what some would consider a more mystical life, in this life, walking by the light that God gives you daily of the Bible, sharing your faith as the Holy Spirit leads and provides genuine opportunity.  But God doesn't threaten any of His children with endless torture and other frightening things awaiting them when they take off the coat that that physical body is to them.

Paul

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Re: What the #$%@ is hell!?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 09:49:56 AM »
Thanks for all the info.