Author Topic: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?  (Read 1014 times)

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PaoloNuevo

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What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« on: November 12, 2010, 01:46:49 AM »
To me, it is Romans 8: 20 - 21, where all Creation will be set free and join the freedom of God's children... and it does point to God's children differentiating the currently saved and those who would eventually be saved.

1 Corinthians 15: 22 might be ambiguous to the unbelieving... but then again if all in Christ doesn't mean "all", then why would Paul say, "As in Adam, all die?"  :thumbsup:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 03:23:59 AM »
 :cloud9: Google Harold Lovelace......he has compiled over 600 scriptures supporting UR.......Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

PaoloNuevo

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 04:09:44 AM »
Wow, thanks I'll look into that!  :bigGrin:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 09:27:45 AM »
Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
PLUS
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost .

The underlaying Greek word for the words highlighted in blue is:
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

Many English meanings for one Greek word. Just pick one you like because it doesn't matter at all (in this case)
Jesus came to save those who already passed through the wide gate. Those who already were apollumi.

 

    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
The coin didn't make itself lost. It didn't even know it was lost. But still it's saved.
(whoops that is just one verse...)

 

    Jeremiah 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable -- who doth know it?
Ezekiel 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

 

    Psalm 49:14  Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Psalm 49:15   But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

they:  They refers to unholy persons.
Psalm 49:10-13  For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.  11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.  12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.  13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.

redeem
Meaning:  1) to ransom, redeem, rescue, deliver 1a) (Qal) to ransom 1b) (Niphal) to be ransomed 1c) (Hiphil) to allow one to be ransomed 1d) (Hophal) redeemed

 

    Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This one is less direct. It requires a bit more interpretation. IMO
The above two verses combined:
And He said unto them, The Son was made for man, and not man for the Son:

So Jesus isn't about we reaching for Father.
But Father reaching out for us.
And that's a large issue in the ET vs UR debate.

PS: The above is not intended disrespectful in any way toward Father, Son, HS...

For a better formated text click here.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 10:20:41 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

PaoloNuevo

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 03:30:32 PM »
Thank you WhiteWings!


Quote
Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
PLUS
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost .

The underlaying Greek word for the words highlighted in blue is:
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

I've never heard these 2 put together! Wow! Some use the "narrow gate" as a presupposition to hopeless doom after they've already entered the narrow gate... but as we already know, the work of Jesus doesn't stop when someone enters the grave..

:)

Quote
So Jesus isn't about we reaching for Father.
But Father reaching out for us.
And that's a large issue in the ET vs UR debate.

Yup, I guess this is the TRUE presupposition of God's love and grace.. However the damnationalist/fundamentalists seem to assume a position of Co-Redeemers or Co-Saviors in Christ when Paul says we are mere ambassadors of the message. True, we snatch people "out of the fire"... but in the end, it is Christ who will actually complete all the saving work.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 04:19:59 PM »
Yup, I guess this is the TRUE presupposition of God's love and grace.. However the damnationalist/fundamentalists seem to assume a position of Co-Redeemers or Co-Saviors in Christ when Paul says we are mere ambassadors of the message. True, we snatch people "out of the fire"... but in the end, it is Christ who will actually complete all the saving work.
We are only snatched out of the fire after the salting is done.

You might also like THIS article.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 04:29:09 PM »
I've never heard these 2 put together! Wow! Some use the "narrow gate" as a presupposition to hopeless doom after they've already entered the narrow gate... but as we already know, the work of Jesus doesn't stop when someone enters the grave..
Wide gate. Prodical son. Woman and the lost coin. The Good Shepherd and the 100 sheep.
Guess what... all based around the same word apollumi. :bgdance:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/not_all_will_accept_it_7936.msg93475.html#msg93475
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lost_coin_and_wide_road_8116.msg101820.html#msg101820
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 10:23:39 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Quaesitor

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 11:55:49 PM »
Quote
So Jesus isn't about we reaching for Father.
But Father reaching out for us.
And that's a large issue in the ET vs UR debate.

Love that, discovered this while reading Thomas Kissinger materials (thanks Jabcat).

Jesus did not come to reconcile God to men but to reconcile men to God. Precious.

Offline Aleax

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2010, 10:32:12 AM »
Hi Paolo,

this stuff has answered many of my questions: http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA|&type=&show=titles&showitems=

A testimony of a woman who says she saw the complete Plan of God.

edit: clicking the link won't work, you need to copy-paste it.
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2010, 11:01:15 AM »
Ah, yeah. Sorry I haven't waken up properly yet :lazy:

Cool new avatar btw :)
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2010, 10:29:10 PM »
:cloud9: Google Harold Lovelace......he has compiled over 600 scriptures supporting UR.......Blessings.....
http://haroldlovelace.com/lovelacelist.php



1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

PaoloNuevo

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Re: What passage in Scripture seals U.R. beyond a doubt?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2010, 01:31:28 AM »
Thanks Aleax, and thanks for assisting with the links WW!