What is the Word of God?

[Molly]

The Bible is the word of God because it is written by people who say things like this:



1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
 2To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. --Jeremiah 1



1The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. --Hosea 1



1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: --Rev 1



1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, ...--Exo 32



18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.--Exo 32



Including eyewitnesses who documented the words of Jesus when the Word became flesh and walked among us.

[Molly]

 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.

 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

--John 1



1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

--Genesis 1


The phrase "And God said" is used 9 times in the first chapter of Genesis.



[And God] "said"
H559
אמר
'âmar
aw-mar'
A primitive root; to say (used with great latitude): - answer, appoint, avouch, bid, boast self, call, certify, challenge, charge, + (at the, give) command (ment), commune, consider, declare, demand, X desire, determine, X expressly, X indeed, X intend, name, X plainly, promise, publish, report, require, say, speak (against, of), X still, X suppose, talk, tell, term, X that is, X think, use [speech], utter, X verily, X yet.


3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.--Hebrews 11

[jabcat]

Molly, very well said. 

IMO, there is a lack of understanding, including the continued attempt to which I've alluded, to separate God's Truths, His Word, into segments from itself.  Some do this out of convenience/deceit, some because they've been negatively influenced by the former.  I've yet to have 1 person who holds that similar view address, or even acknowledge Psalm 119:89 wrt the logos.  It's as if it doesn't exist.  Instead, diversions are brought into the conversation such as the crusaders killing people while "clinging to the Bible", as if it's the belief in the authority of scripture that's to blame.  I don't believe those are accurate analogies to individuals that are called believers, that God has caused to see the inspiration of, and hold reverence for, God's Word.  I've also never had anyone be able to show where Jesus manifesting the logos in the flesh then negates the logos from continuing to be God's Word.  How is Psalm 119:89 explained away, or is it to be simply ignored? 

All of us have had negative past experiences, including knowing folks that will attempt to misuse anything.  However, one of our challenges is to not let that hurt drive us away from things that are true, things that perhaps someone unfortunately abused or exploited, but yet something that still remains vital to ours and others spiritual well-being.

[martincisneros]

Yeah, it's the traditions of men that make the commandments of God of none effect.  Preachers say a lot of things everyday, but we must still test it by Scripture as the Bereans did.  If I remember right, they were considered of more noble character than the Thessalonians for doing so.  The Pharisees weren't clinging to the Book.  They were clinging to their traditions about the book.  Calvinists have essentially done the same thing with merging Augustine with the preaching of Calvin in the name of "sound doctrine."  Although they'll cite proof texts, that's not to say that they're being faithful to the Spirit of the Word.  And since I seem to need to clarify.  Although they'll cite proof texts, that's not to say that they're being faithful to the Spirit of the Written Word.  Peter called it a more sure Word of prophecy than their own eye-witness testimony of His Majesty when they were with Him on the Holy Mount.  Peter said you'd do good to take heed to it as a light that shines in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the Morning Star arises in your hearts.  As Andrew Jukes noted about the Word in the first chapter of Restitution of all things, the Book is essentially the same as the Flesh Body of Jesus Christ.  You can prove it's human, thoroughly human as any mere person working in a morgue could have proven.  But it's no less thoroughly divine.  And I don't think that Andrew Jukes can be accused of not knowing the Lord of the Book because of his reverence for the Book.  If having the Book as first priority and final authority in my life makes me an idolater, then everybody just back out of the way while my big butt gets on my knees with the Book 'cause We've got our own thing going on over here

I don't think that the problem's so much the Book as people not being able to perceive the depth to which God can touch you with the Book.  They understand the level to which they've been touched by the Book, but haven't dared to grasp that there are deeper levels even in the Book.  He said He wasn't leaving us as orphans.  We've got both the Spirit and the Book.  And the Spirit, the Word, and the Blood agree as One

[Molly]

Molly, very well said. 

IMO, there is a lack of understanding, including the continued attempt to which I've alluded, to separate God's Truths, His Word, into segments from itself.  Some do this out of convenience/deceit, some because they've been negatively influenced by the former.  I've yet to have 1 person who holds that similar view address, or even acknowledge Psalm 119:89 wrt the logos.  It's as if it doesn't exist.  Instead, diversions are brought into the conversation such as the crusaders killing people while "clinging to the Bible", as if it's the belief in the authority of scripture that's to blame.  I don't believe those are accurate analogies to individuals that are called believers, that God has caused to see the inspiration of, and hold reverence for, God's Word.  I've also never had anyone be able to show where Jesus manifesting the logos in the flesh then negates the logos from continuing to be God's Word.  How is Psalm 119:89 explained away, or is it to be simply ignored? 

All of us have had negative past experiences, including knowing folks that will attempt to misuse anything.  However, one of our challenges is to not let that hurt drive us away from things that are true, things that perhaps someone unfortunately abused or exploited, but yet something that still remains vital to ours and others spiritual well-being.

I know that we have ages and ages to learn about him, but I cling to every word in the Bible.   The Word is the gateway.


John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Again, the earliest manuscripts agree up to 99%, so IMO, that's very significant.  I don't use the term inerrancy, I use the terms trustworthiness, sufficient, and inspired, which is what scripture says about itself. 

And I agree with that,  I was only making a point of where those slopes lie.

And again, IMO, the Word of God is God's Truths, in whatever form He chooses to present them...logos, rhema, His Son in flesh...It seems to me that if we don't accept what scripture says about itself, that God's logos is set to the ages, then anything can be questioned or disputed, including the "story" to which you allude. 

From reading scripture, that belief will be given to us when God has it planned.  As far something being questioned or disputed I will have to say that it already is and we already do.  We as believers in UR dispute ET and vice versa which are points of view derived from the same "Word of God".   

By God's grace I maintain it's more than a story...it's part of the Word of God, and it is settled in the heavens.  James.

I agree with that also, but I simply do not concern myself that I can prove that undeniably to a critic.  For instance,  PT spends a lot of time in the area of discrediting areas of the bible in order to promote a point of view.  I do not need to prove its credibility to PT, PT shows the ridiculousness of someone who believes something under those circumstances.

[Mickiel]

Brother Martin and Sister Molly.  Thanks for exploring within scripture, blessings to you.  I do have a bit of a doctrinal hair to split with this, see what you think.  I see Acts 6:7 saying at least 2 different (though connected) things.  Yes, it was talking about a group of people, but not that group as being The Word.  The Greek Interlinear bears that out, as it refers to the logos spreading, so then more disciples (learners) were made.  It says "kai ho logos ho theos auxanO kai plEthunO ho arithmos ho mathEtEs", translated as "and the saying/word of-the God grows-up and was multiplied the number of the learners/disciples".  So, again, doctrinally, I don't see us as being the Word of God, but rather spreading/sharing the Word of God.  God living in us, us being His sons and daughters, but I don't see us as being divine.  Aren't we partakers of the divine because He allows it and has grafted us in, but still we're not the Divine?  What say ye?  Do you have more to 'da story?  Mickiel and others, what do you see here?  God's blessings, James.

Well I don't see humans as being the Word of God, or extentions of it. But I admit to not being a man who can see all things. I don't see the Kingdom as being here now, but many do. I don't see being born again now, but many do. I don't see a Trinity, but many do. I don't see the bible as not being the word of God, but many do. Rather than try to disprove these things, and call others wrong, I just say that I cannot see these things. I am trying to get away from condemning what others see, and just understand that what they see, is just not for me.

What you see, is what you see, its for you to see and understand. I have actually tried to " Make myself" see the Kingdom of God as being within us now. Just force it down into my belief, but it regurgitates each time. Its like God won't let me believe it. And I'm thinking and telling him" Well everyonelse believes it, why can't I." And each time the answer is the same, its just not for me to believe it. So I understand that God can bring you to a point, that you will believe what he wants you to believe, not what you want to believe. And often your beliefs will isolate you. Everyone believes they are born again, but I stick out like a heritic, because I don't believe it. Eventually you get to the point, that you feel like keeping things to yourself, which effects your witness.

But the Word of God, I think " Resides in us", and it will force itself out. So in that aspect, I would agree that the Word of God can " Be In" a person, which is perhaps why some take it further and call themselves the Word of God. They do so with Gods Kingdom, and say its in them too.

I think this is why I prefer to walk alone Spiritually, because so much is going on, I just don't like letting just anything into my belief. I am Spiritually supersticous, and just don't trust a lot of things.

Peace.

[Molly]

I know people who have never opened a Bible on their own, who used to go to church but no longer do, who have no understanding of theology, or that Jesus even existed before he was born in Bethlehem,  but who have a very real sense of personal relationship with Christ that is evident in the choices they make, the things they say,  and the way they lead their lives.

I think we would have to admit that the moral imperative of God which requires us to look out for another's  interest over our own, whether in laws or attitudes, is not the natural state of man.  Yet, we do see it all the time, and every time I see it, I take note, this would not be possible without God.  Just being able to walk down the street in safety is impressive.  In that sense, at least, I see his kingdom everywhere, vying in competition with the system of the world.

[Mickiel]

I know people who have never opened a Bible on their own, who used to go to church but no longer do, who have no understanding of theology, or that Jesus even existed before he was born in Bethlehem,  but who have a very real sense of personal relationship with Christ that is evident in the choices they make, the things they say,  and the way they lead their lives.

I think we would have to admit that the moral imperative of God which requires us to look out for another's  interest over our own, whether in laws or attitudes, is not the natural state of man.  Yet, we do see it all the time, and every time I see it, I take note, this would not be possible without God.  Just being able to walk down the street in safety is impressive.  In that sense, at least, I see his kingdom everywhere, vying in competition with the system of the world.

Well I can see that sense myself, I view it as Gods influence also. With me, I don't see it as a " Kingdom influence", but I understand those who do. I see it as part of the Good knowledge that God made avialible to humanity. I see the Kingdom of God as a place , not yet in our reality, or moreso us not yet in that place. When the Kingdom of God is brought down to earth, then I see us being in that place. But I understand those who view it " Spiritually", and see the Spirit of the place being within them now.

I have been wrong to argue that point with people who hold to it, and have adjusted to understanding that I simply do not see it as they do. We are just going to see things differently, but we do need to prove things to ourselves first, and the Kingdom being within is just something I cannot prove to myself, but hold no need to prove to others anything about what they accept themselves. I am really trying to move away from doing that, because each of us has the Spirit to help us to understand things, and it obviously works with each of us quite differently in some areas, and the same in others.

Peace.

[Molly]

well, yes it is a place which will be on earth when enough people change from the inside out.  A kingdom is made up of people.

The meek will inherit the earth, not the warmongers.

It will be here when enough people stop sitting around watching porn and playing computer games while their leaders carry out policies of death, destruction, and enslavement.  It will be here when man realizes he is immortal and his life is worth something more than making enough money every week to pay the mortgage or buy the new SUV,  and his life is worth doing something good, something that will have lasting benefit for his fellow man.  It will be here when the gutless wonders that populate our western countries start standing up and saying, "No," to evil, and "Not on my watch."

Until then, satan runs the show, and the minds of men are dominated by the word of satan.


Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

[Mickiel]

One day mankind will know the truth, and that truth will set us free. Jesus is the beginning of this process for humanity, and I don't even know Christ for myself yet. I believe and I hope in Christ victory, yet even I don't know God personally in my life. I often listen to the song " Distant Lover", and I place God there in my mind. So close, yet so far. I have no photo album, no tape recording, only the bible and my weak faith. I often long for just a wispher from him, a one on one conversation, anything just to break the fellowship with just a book.

I like how some have said the Word becomes alive within you. Well God has done his thing with me, I am convinced in him, there is no turning back for me. And I like the message of Universal Salvation, the hope it gives for all. So I view this world through those eyes, humanity willnot be left to itself always, our distant Lover will return. I know that one day I will be given his Holy Spirit, and oh how I long for that day!

He will no longer help me in bits and peices, but my mind and heart will be totally gripped by him. Sin will let loose of me, and I will be free indeed.

Yet I thank him daily for seeing to me, in the mist of my troubles, somehow I know he is there.

Peace.

[Molly]

Psalm 37:11
But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

"meek"

H6035
עניו    ענו
‛ânâv  ‛ânâyv
aw-nawv', aw-nawv'
The second form is by intermixture with H6041; from H6031; depressed (figuratively), in mind (gentle) or circumstances (needy, especially saintly): - humble, lowly, meek, poor`. Compare H6041.


H6031
ענה
‛ânâh
aw-naw'
A primitive root (possibly rather identical with H6030 through the idea of looking down or browbeating); to depress literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively (in various applications). (sing is by mistake for H6030.): - abase self, afflict (-ion, self), answer [by mistake for H6030], chasten self, deal hardly with, defile, exercise, force, gentleness, humble (self), hurt, ravish, sing [by mistake for H6030], speak [by mistake for H6030], submit self, weaken, X in any wise.


H6030
ענה
‛ânâh
aw-naw'
A primitive root; properly to eye or (generally) to heed, that is, pay attention; by implication to respond; by extension to begin to speak; specifically to sing, shout, testify, announce: - give account, afflict [by mistake for H6031], (cause to, give) answer, bring low [by mistake for H6031], cry, hear, Leannoth, lift up, say, X scholar, (give a) shout, sing (together by course), speak, testify, utter, (bear) witness. See also H1042, H1043.




Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


"meek"
G4239
πραΰ́ς
praus
prah-ooce'
Apparently a primary word; mild, that is, (by implication) humble: - meek. See also G4235.



Matthew 11:29

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly of heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

[Molly]

Anna!  I really enjoyed your post.  I, too, am coming full circle to the simple love I had for him as a small child.

Even so, he's opening up so many new worlds to me still.  More on the word of God--

We see God speaking the world into existence, calling by thought and voice (a commandment) something into existence that was not there before.  What could we call this, if not the creative process?

He created man in his image, so man, too, has this creative process by definition--able to call something into existence that was not there before.

Man was given dominion over this planet and everything on it.  But man was not given dominion over man.
In order for man to have dominion over man, a small percentage of men have to reduce the large percentage  of men to the thing that man does have legal dominion over--the beast of the fields.  The slavery of satan is to destroy the creative and procreative process of man, reducing him to an animal.  Satan would have us in a constantly reactive state, always reacting to his latest move on the world scene, rather than being proactive as we were created to be.  He does this by manipulating our minds, brainwashing us, making us think we are so much less than we are, causing us to worship death, using lies and murder.

God hid his son Adam in the skin of beasts before he sent him out of the garden.  And, so he remained hidden, for ages and generations--until Christ should come and redeem him.

This creative process is how man becomes the word of God, using it for life, (not death,) for glory to God, (not glory to a few nasty, greedy, and cruel men,) yoked together with Jesus--the mind of Christ.

I'm waiting for this to explode on the earth, all over the earth, a mass awakening to the light of our Redeemer.

...yet in my flesh shall I see God.--Job 19:26

[firstborn888]

If having the Book as first priority and final authority in my life makes me an idolater, then everybody just back out of the way while my big butt gets on my knees with the Book 'cause We've got our own thing going on over here

Martin, you are too cool dude!

I don't think that the problem's so much the Book as people not being able to perceive the depth to which God can touch you with the Book.  They understand the level to which they've been touched by the Book, but haven't dared to grasp that there are deeper levels even in the Book. 

Agreed.

Mickiel, Jab, Molly - I've read a lot of your writings on all manner of subjects and you folks are awesome and I would never venture out to try and discount your views of the bible, and even more so because I share most of your views. For whatever reason though I'm in a place where I see how many have replaced knowing God with believing in a perfect 'magic' book. I don't think that is the case with folks here who have tasted of the power of the world to come and know God in a deep way. I apologize if my strong 'idolatry' statements seemed to be directed at any of you - if they don't apply then they weren't.

IMO, there is a lack of understanding, including the continued attempt to which I've alluded, to separate God's Truths, His Word, into segments from itself.  Some do this out of convenience/deceit, some because they've been negatively influenced by the former.

I'm sure some discount the bible for the reasons you mentioned. As for me, I've really never been negatively influenced by it though I know many who have been - but I agree with most of you that it's just because of a lack of spiritual insight. I have stated my deep love for the bible and am thankful for everything God has taught me (and is still teaching me) through it. It's just that so many I deal with everyday are stuck in deep deep ruts just parroting over and over what their pastors teach them and all their pet scriptures to reinforce a particular world view which I see as false and twisted. It's not the bible's fault per se, but it's how it is presented.

I will say I am a bit surprised that none of you will acknowledge that I have any valid points at all.

All I am really saying is that the message of God has always existed and did not drop down from heaven in the form of a magic book. He comes to us personally and even though the book tells the story about God's dealings with others it should not replace His direct dealings with us as individuals. I don't think you all disagree with this, and maybe I'm arguing more over an all encompassing term, ie: "Word of God" than an actual issue?

Molly, I worked in word of faith circles for 30 years and all the "God said's" in Genesis are simply astounding and powerful, setting the course for all we see around us. Your posts on this subject give me chills down my spine

blessings,
 - byron

[Molly]

Yes, it is interesting, and I hope you will at least consider it.

Because the Word of God is Jesus, and it is the literal word of the Bible, and it is the mind of Christ--it is the spoken word of God which brings things into being out of nothing.

So--how do we attain righteousness, how does our righteousness increase?--by all of the above.

We are becoming holograms of Christ--the mind of Christ which is in you is also in me.


5 He therefore that  ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth it he by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye, therefore, that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

--Galatians 3


These are the children of Abraham--the children of the promise, the children of light--the word of God--because God spoke them into existence with an everlasting covenant, and Abraham believed what he heard.


Genesis 22:18

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=firstborn888 link

I will say I am a bit surprised that none of you will acknowledge that I have any valid points at all.

All I am really saying is that the message of God has always existed and did not drop down from heaven in the form of a magic book. He comes to us personally and even though the book tells the story about God's dealings with others it should not replace His direct dealings with us as individuals. I don't think you all disagree with this, and maybe I'm arguing more over an all encompassing term, ie: "Word of God" than an actual issue?

blessings,
 - byron
[/quote]

Well I think many of your points are valid, and let me say they are perhaps more future tense, than past tense. We don't know a lot about God outside of the bible, but a time will come that the bible itself may become obsolette, but not today. The things you are speaking of are moreso the future, and not Gods words in the past. I don't understand a lot about God outside of the bible, but as the time approachs that people will no longer need teachers, I think conversely, the time will come where even the bible itself will not be needed. It will perhaps be just another book in heaven that we read like history books. I just think your looking further than most, which is understandable, but your premise is more based on Gods Words before the bible was written, and thats just too much of an unknown.

I do tend to view the bible as " Magical", as well as God and Jesus themselves. Extraordinary and unique. Mystical and defineing. But I can see some of your points, just not all of them. In 1Thess. 1:5;" Our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit, and with full conviction." This is a definte " Pattern of God", espically when he reveals things to individuals. Its not just word only that he teachs, its in Power, in the Holy Spirit, and with full conviction. Its not just the bible only, and his Power and Spirit can cover a whole lot of ground.

So when you walk ground that seemingly no onelse is covering, just keep walking.

Peace.

[martincisneros]

Byron,

I think that I know what you're talking about.  A good example are a lot of the people who carry their Bible everywhere they go, but they don't ever read it indepth.  They'll read a couple of Psalms, the text that their Pastor preached last Sunday or Wednesday night, or maybe a chapter of Proverbs.  But few of the people who carry the Bible with them everywhere have even gotten as far as reading through the whole New Testament.  But if you and me come out of nowhere asserting the final recovery of all, they sure know where Revelation 20:14 is, and one or two other alleged proof texts for ET.  Their minds are made up, so don't confuse them with the facts of Romans 5, 2Corinthians 5, 1Corinthians 15, Revelation 5:13, etc. 

I'm not sure if you've tried to share UR with some of the same WoF crowd, but it's amazing how all of a sudden it's impossible to see any of the things that we'd understand of a UR nature where the Abrahamic Blessing is concerned.  In my experience, they'll look at you like you made it up about all of the families of the earth being blessed!!  Unless, you're talking about confessing and believing your way into enough money to get on enough television stations so that everybody can "have a chance" to hear the Word before Jesus comes back and it's "too late." 

I don't discount the financial part of the Galatians chapters 3 and 4 blessing 'cause after standing on it for 17 years, I finally started having a few of those financial testimonies of my own this past September.  The type of financial testimonies that people who aren't normally associated with the more prosperous aspects of the preaching of the Word will often be forced by their own circumstances to say "they've gotta be lying about that!  there ain't no way!!"  First the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.  I haven't had steady abundance ever since then, but I've had several things that have happened since then, just to let me know that I didn't waste the first 20 years of my Christian life, all of that confessing and all of that giving. 

But the point of anything that God does -- and we must never lose this part -- is the filling of the entire earth and of every heart in the entire earth with His glory.  Yes, wealth is a part of that: all of the families of the earth are to be blessed; "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst, etc., etc. for the Lamb shall lead them, be their light; they shall walk by the light of that city, etc., etc., etc., etc."  But if we miss out on the love that'll shake everything to it's core and then later will never ever be shaken by anything -- if we miss out on this, then we've missed everything!  Through the Blood of Christ we're all ONE family.  That's the point of the Word.  That's the point of the Blood.  That's the point of the Spirit.  JESUS CHRIST CHANGED EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

[jabcat]

Quote Byron: "All I am really saying is that the message of God has always existed".

I agree, IMO, that's an absolute, very valid point. I'll give you love   .


Quote Byron: "and did not drop down from heaven in the form of a magic book".  

I personally wouldn't describe it in these terms, but IMO, there may be some separation in POV here, in that I believe the written Word(s) of God are part of/also the Word (the total of God's truths and the expression thereof).

Quote Byron: "He comes to us personally and even though the book tells the story about God's dealings with others it should not replace His direct dealings with us as individuals."

That's my point, is that IMO, it will never replace His direct dealings with us...they are part and parcel, they work together, one testifies and/or witnesses of the other.  

Quote Byron: "I don't think you all disagree with this, and maybe I'm arguing more over an all encompassing term, ie: "Word of God" than an actual issue?"

I don't think most in this discussion do disagree with this either.  However, IMO, the terminology is very critical, because of the implications involved and where that belief system can lead.  I will only speak for myself, but I suspect many others have seen as well, that often when someone verbalizes the statement "[accurately translated, Spirit revealed] scripture is not the Word of God", then that can open the door to beginning the slide down that slippery slope to which I earlier alluded.  I believe that can be a very critical area in which we can "give way to Satan", which scripture warns against.  It gives Satan a foothold, an entrance to question "did God really say"?   In essence, that if scripture can't be trusted, and I have the need to make the statement(s) that it's generally not inspired, not God's Word, etc., then I could begin to question and influence others to dispute all sorts of actually scripture-based doctrinal issues (not just denominational dogmas with which we've all dealt) including some that IMO are very integral to the message of the Christ's Good News.  When that happens, then where does it stop and who am I negatively affecting?  I can then go to this scenario... [I'M NOT SAYING YOU DO THIS, BYRON, I'M MAKING A POINT USING ME AS THE EXAMPLE...I PERSONALLY WAS TURNING IN THE DIRECTION OF DOUBTING GOD'S WORD, HAVING BEEN INFLUENCED BY SOMEONE ELSE, UNTIL GOD S/W PAINFULLY VISITED ME IN CORRECTION  ]...So this scenario...the cross was unnecessary, Jesus' blood isn't important, Jesus wasn't really born of a virgin, we don't really need the salvation of Jesus as God has accepted us all along, all other religions are OK in God's eyes, Jesus isn't divine, Paul was a liar so we can't believe anything he said (unless there's a certain passage I like and fits well to make whatever point I want to make)...again, where's the end to that (answer: destruction) and how do we as the universal Body of Christ really edify each other with truth, contend for sound doctrine, etc., if we have gone the way of making up our own doctrines because scripture can't be trusted, although my POV may be that it is a very good book and I like a lot of its stories.  

The Word of God is powerful.  And in the Greek, in Hebrews alone, over and over it talks of the Word of God as being the logos AND the rhema...for instance, this famous verse;  4:12 For the word (LOGOS) of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  And here; 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word (LOGOS) of God to you"...

So, even if I believe scripture is "neat", IMO, that's not enough.  If I even believe scripture is "really good stories about God, and we ought to pay a lot of attention to it"...IMO, that's still not enough.  The Word of God is absolute power, and it IS Jesus, but to say it's only Jesus, IMO is incorrect and missing much.  IMO, all of God's truths, including His thoughts, written words, manifestation of His power, are God's Word;  and again, Jesus manifested all that in the flesh.  More Hebrews;  6:5 and have tasted the good word (hRHMA) of God and the powers of the age to come,  11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word (hRHMA) of God...See, as I understand it, this scripture and the scripture wrt "and the Word was/toward God", is not specifically talking about Jesus "only" at that point, but more so, for lack of a better way to say it, along the lines of God's thoughts/will/intent, etc...specifically, the hRHMA...again, [part of] the Word of God.

Quote Byron: "It's just that so many I deal with everyday are stuck in deep deep ruts just parroting over and over what their pastors teach them and all their pet scriptures to reinforce a particular world view which I see as false and twisted. It's not the bible's fault per se, but it's how it is presented."

Sad, but true, and I do understand how those situations make us want to pull our hair out...

God's blessing, James.

 

[Molly]

1 Thess 5:5
 
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:  we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
 
 
The first thing that God does after creating light is separate it from the darkness.  Thus, light is not just illuminated darkness, it is something qualitatively different.  If that were not so, the light would cause all darkness to cease.
 
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.--Genesis 1
 
 
Then God gives the light a name: "Day."   And, here in 1 Thess we are called 'the children of the day.'
 
 
Why is this so special?  Because darkness has no part in us.  It is a different 'animal' altogether.  God has divided the darkness from us.  The Jewish day begins in the evening, with darkness being followed by the light of dawn, the rising of the morning star.
 
 
31And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.  And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.--Genesis 1
 
 
 
"morning"
 
 
H1242
בּקר
bôqer
bo'-ker
From H1239; properly dawn (as the break of day); generally morning: -  (+) day, early, morning, morrow.

[Mickiel]

In John 1:1," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word here is Jesus, and I believe the expression " The Word was God", means at one time Jesus was " Inside of God", and then God " Birthed him", so he was at one time God. I used to call this " Protozoan", for lack of a better term, meaning what was once inside, is now outside. God actually gave birth to Jesus, and brought him from inside of himself. Of course I don't know how he did this, but its what I see as occuring, whenever it occured.

Jesus in John 5:26;" Just as the Father has life in himself, even so " HE GAVE" to the son to have life in himself, which obviously means that Jesus didNOT always have life in himself, or God wouldnot have had to " Give it to him." Again Jesus in John 6:57, " As the living Father has sent me, AND I LIVE BECAUSE OF THE FATHER!" I think its being made painfully obvious by Jesus, that he came from God, and was NOT always alive with " Independant self generating Life", or protozoan, yet he was always a part of God. So in one sense, having no beginning of days, yet in another , certainly having a beginning of days. Which can be rather confusing.

Again Jesus in John 8:42;" For I proceeded forth and came from God." Again the obvious sense of " Birth, or a beginning." Or perhaps its not so obvious to some. So Jesus, the Word, was once God, or an integral part of God, which God is now sharing with reality.

The Word can also mean the greek Logos, which is a thought or a concept. It is the expression or utterance of that thought. I think this means that God Designated Jesus to " Speak for him", or become the Spokes person, or " Speaker between the two." Therefore Logos is peculiarly suitable because in Jesus are embodied all the treasures of the devine Wisdom, the Collective thought of God." But only what God wants to share at the time. So everything Jesus says, IS the Word of God. Notice 1 Corinth. 1:24; Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. And the bible is certainly about Christ.

But the orgin of the Word of God, is still God himself. Eph. 3:9; "And to bring  to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things." Now part of this " Hidden in God", is Jesus himself. Think in terms of Jesus being the Word, the Word was at one time God, or hidden in God, but now the mystery is beginning to be unfolded, or shared, with humanity. And these things are being brought to the light. Notice also Col.2:2-3;"That their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in Love ( a most bueatiful expression, knit together in Love) and attaining to all wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, RESULTING in a true Knowledge of Gods Mystery, that is Christ himself. In whom are HIDDEN all the treasures of wisdom and Knowledge."

So I think it goes like this, to put it simple; God is eternal, he decided to have a Son. God does not have sex with another being, so he somehow just " Birthed Christ", who became the firstborn of all creation. Christ was always " Inside of God", which makes him eternal also. So Jesus is in one sense, BOTH Eternal, has always existed, but yet now exist with his very OWN eternal Life with individual power and personality, and God GAVE him this, so he has a " Beginning of sorts." This is the Beginning I believe John 1:1 is speaking of;" In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and at one time, Was God."

And I want to go a little further along this path.  Peace.

[Molly]

In the beginning was the Word..

This doesn't say 1 minute after the beginning, or 20 minutes after the beginning--it says, In the beginning...


"Word"

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


What does this tell us about the nature of God?



John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Mickiel link=

 This is the Beginning I believe John 1:1 is speaking of;" In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and at one time, Was God."

And I want to go a little further along this path.  Peace.
[/quote]


The beginning of John 1:1, is the beginning of Jesus , because God the Father has no beginning. Notice vs.2; " He was IN the beginning with God." This is not a prologue of the Father, but of the Son. He was IN God and began to Live outside of him. Then God placed him back inside of a human womans womb, he was IN Mary, and was Born Again, the first born of many that will go through this exact same process. Born once, then born again.

This is the essence of Gods preincarnate work, God eternal Word incarnate in his Son, born of himself.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[Molly]

Colossians 1:15

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


"firstborn"


G4416
πρωτοτόκος
prōtotokos
pro-tot-ok'-os
From G4413 and the alternate of G5088; first born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): - firstbegotten (-born).



G4413
πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.



G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened from of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.


This is telling us that he is the beginning seed, and the foremost seed--prototokos.



Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[Molly]

Hi Molly:

I have too much respect for your POV to dismiss it without giving it some consideration.

But, right now, I'm so focused on the creation of man...

In the history of the world (cosmos) as recorded in the Scriptures, the first, the final, and most importantly, the intermediate matter is that of the creation of heaven, earth, man.

Genesis 1:26-27

Ephesians 2:15-16

Rev. 4:11; 10:6; 21:1


Peace!
Anna

BTW re: Genesis 22:18, see also Genesis 3:17 and Genesis 16:2... it's all in whose voice one obeys!!!

Thanks, Anna!

What does it mean to obey, if not to follow?

And do we have any choice but to follow him if we hear his voice?

Sheep do that, you know. They recognize the voice of their shepherd and will go to him when called, and follow him wherever he goes.


"obey" [Gen 22:18]

H8085
שׁמע
shâma‛
shaw-mah'
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): -  X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness.



John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:



"follow"
G190
ἀκολουθέω
akoloutheō
ak-ol-oo-theh'-o
From G1 (as a particle of union) and κέλευθος keleuthos (a road); properly to be in the same way with, that is, to accompany (specifically as a disciple): - follow, reach.


But when someone who is not the true shepherd wants to herd the sheep, what does he do?  He sets the predatory dogs on them to nip at their heels and stare them down, and send them in whatever direction he wants for his own benefit.


15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. --Genesis 3

[Michele]

I believe that the Word of God is simply LOVE!

Yet it seems that love can mean many things to many people...and perhaps that is as it should be for now....I see that as our purpose here on earth -- to find out (to know) what Love means.....

How can we worship Him, if we do not even know Him??

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not even know Him. (John chapter 1)