Author Topic: What is the Word of God?  (Read 12601 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mickiel

  • Guest
What is the Word of God?
« on: June 16, 2008, 07:04:14 PM »


One of the " Thrills of Fellowship", is the opportunity to see whats on others mind. What someone other than yourself is thinking. You can observe whats comming out of people. A suggestion was brought into the open, that the phrase " The Word of God", does not really mean the Bible, since Gods word existed before the bible was written. An interesting premise, which I think is looking at one side of a pancake, and then making an issue out of the other side of the pancake being totally different than its oppisite side. Both are sides of the same thing.

In Matthews 4:4, again Jesus;"It is written, Man shallnot live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God." Now if the bible is not the Word of God, then I would like to know just how humanity is supposed to know how to live? What was Jesus speaking about here?

Jesus was talking about how " MEN are to Live", humans, he wasNOT speaking about things God has to say when humans are not privy to listening. Or not priviledged to at least reading about what God has to say. He was talking about Living according to the " Word of God", and I see no other Word ofGod than the Bible.

And I wanted to go into this topic a little further.

Peace.
 

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 07:38:32 PM »
Quote
In Matthews 4:4, again Jesus;"It is written, Man shallnot live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God." Now if the bible is not the Word of God, then I would like to know just how humanity is supposed to know how to live? What was Jesus speaking about here?

What I believe is the bible is Gods word made flesh so that there is some comprehension in this state of being to what God even "is".   I refer to the 1 chapter of John.

Humanity doesn't have to actually know how to live as how anyone lives was predestined by God in the first place. 

Verses such as Proverbs 16:9 does not distinguish a context to "only believers" because of Proverbs 16:4

Pr 16:4 . The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If God made all things for himself, then the sustenance of our existance is explained in John.


Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men

Jn 1:9 It was the true light--which is enlightening every man--coming into the world.


Religion can try to tell us that our coming to believe is a choice apart from Christ.

I argue that this light is the manner, that we can understand, in which every man will be drawn to believe through Christ.



« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 07:48:14 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 08:04:29 PM »
IMO, Jesus manifesting The Word in the flesh does not then negate the logos (written) and rhema (revealed/spoken) words of God from also being the Word.  There is nothing I know of in scripture that says God's words (thought and/or spoken) are not His Word.  Jesus brought it into flesh, walked and dwelt among us.  I believe people stumble over that point of Jesus manifesting/becoming the Word and lose sight of the rest of it...sort of what you said Mickiel wrt the pancake.  IMO, you cannot separate Jesus, the logos, the rhema...they are the substance of God, they are part and parcel, they are "The Word".  All God's thoughts, His statements, His Son are, IMO, the Truths of God, in essence, the Word of God.

IMO, the danger of separating these things from each other in our minds then leaves us open to beginning to attempt to come up with our own ideas, doctrines, and often the resultant error, as we no longer revere scripture as the inspired Word to live by that I believe it is...accurately translated, properly divided (interpreted), Spirit revealed.

Psalms 119:89...To the age, O Jehovah, Thy word (logos) is set up in the heavens (YLT).  Unfortunately some will do so, but IMO, that one verse alone is inarguable wrt God's Word.

God's blessing, James. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 08:07:14 PM by jabcat »

Mickiel

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2008, 08:10:51 PM »
Quote
In Matthews 4:4, again Jesus;"It is written, Man shallnot live by bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God." Now if the bible is not the Word of God, then I would like to know just how humanity is supposed to know how to live? What was Jesus speaking about here?

What I believe is the bible is Gods word made flesh so that there is some comprehension in this state of being to what God even "is".   I refer to the 1 chapter of John.

Humanity doesn't have to actually know how to live as how anyone lives was predestined by God in the first place. 

Verses such as Proverbs 16:9 does not distinguish a context to "only believers" because of Proverbs 16:4

Pr 16:4 . The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If God made all things for himself, then the sustenance of our existance is explained in John.


Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men

Jn 1:9 It was the true light--which is enlightening every man--coming into the world.


Religion can try to tell us that our coming to believe is a choice apart from Christ.

I argue that this light is the manner, that we can understand, in which every man will be drawn to believe through Christ.






Well you seem to be thinking as I do, along the lines of how humans come to know God, its a God thing, not a human choice thing. I think its impossible for a human to " Open the doors of Heaven themselves", and then milk heaven of its blessings, as one would milk a Cow. I think man has a Will, and a choice naturally evolves from that,  but because God cannot be readily seen " Tinkering with our premeditated Will", then we tend to credit ourselves with more than we should, and then conversely blaming ourselves more than we should for certain " Unknown things" that happen to us.

We live because of God, we think because of God, we move and have our senses because of God, but because we are human, its easy to think these things are " Because of ourselves." Yet " The Self" IS Gods gift to man, our individuality IS important, we are individual beings , thus in need of self realization, but to what degree God imposes on the self, is just as often unseen, so we can take credit or leave it, either way one still would find it hard to determine where God becomes involved directly or indirectly. But I tend to think even when God is not involved directly, somewhere along the lines, you can bet he still is at the base root of all things. Its really no way around him.

Given this, one can view the bible as a very instrumental influence on humanity, directly or indirectly, all things are a result of Gods Word. Spoken or written, Gods word IS life, and nothing can be seperate from it. Not really.

Peace.

Mickiel

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2008, 08:19:48 PM »
IMO, Jesus manifesting The Word in the flesh does not then negate the logos (written) and rhema (revealed/spoken) words of God from also being the Word.  There is nothing I know of in scripture that says God's words (thought and/or spoken) are not His Word.  Jesus brought it into flesh, walked and dwelt among us.  I believe people stumble over that point of Jesus manifesting/becoming the Word and lose sight of the rest of it...sort of what you said Mickiel wrt the pancake.  IMO, you cannot separate Jesus, the logos, the rhema...they are the substance of God, they are part and parcel, they are "The Word".  All God's thoughts, His statements, His Son are, IMO, the Truths of God, in essence, the Word of God.

IMO, the danger of separating these things from each other in our minds then leaves us open to beginning to attempt to come up with our own ideas, doctrines, and often the resultant error, as we no longer revere scripture as the inspired Word to live by that I believe it is...accurately translated, properly divided (interpreted), Spirit revealed.

Psalms 119:89...To the age, O Jehovah, Thy word (logos) is set up in the heavens (YLT).  Unfortunately some will do so, but IMO, that one verse alone is inarguable wrt God's Word.

God's blessing, James. 


Again, I agree. Mans effort to seperate church and state is " A man thing", but is that a God thing? When humans seperate things, well thats one thing, but when God seperates things, well thats another. Yet even when God seperates things, like he did with Light and Darkness, can we see the seperation like he does? Or see WHy the seperation? I can't stand outside and pinpoint when light seperates from darkness. They just seem to blend in and out at the moments that they do. So it is with Gods written and spoken word, why should I try to figure out the when and why of the seperation of Jesus words, Gods Words, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit influencing?

Trying to map the human gene cells was a hard job, but trying to seperate the Words of God and construct a map of that, I tend to think is impossible, and futile.

Peace.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2008, 08:27:08 PM »
Hi James,


I do not intend to negate the bible or suggest that it is not of God.  My comment about it realizes the reality that we do not have the originals, nor are we completely in understanding of the culture and the full understanding of an ancient language that we are far removed from.

I understand the excuses such as ones PT brings to the table that allows him to manipulate the contradictions in his theology as if they do not exist.  

But I think that it is accurate to say that the bible is the best physical representation God has allowed us to have in order to understand what God wants us to know in this state of existance.  But as it is also in the world, then it is not whole and perfect no more than we are.



Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2008, 08:29:19 PM »
The word of God is the spoken word of the mind of Christ.  It was there in the beginning with God and it was God.

God speaks everything into existence.  That is how he creates.

The spoken word is extremely powerful, most especially the word of God.

The first attribute God gives Adam is the Holy Spirit (breath of God), the second is language,-- syllables, words,  formed by the breath.

The Word is given to the prophets of the Old Testament by hearing, and the Word becomes flesh with Jesus in the New Testament.  

Now that the Word has become flesh, it is available to all who would receive it.


4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

 5My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

 6The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

 7For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger [ANGEL] of the LORD of hosts.

 8But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Malachi 2





Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


[The word become flesh, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 08:58:29 PM by Molly »

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2008, 09:11:29 PM »
Hi Molly.  I agree with everything you've said, but also again, have to interject Ps. 119:89..."thy Word (logos) is forever settled...".
 
Hi James,
I do not intend to negate the bible or suggest that it is not of God.  My comment about it realizes the reality that we do not have the originals,  But as it is also in the world, then it is not whole and perfect no more than we are.

Hi Paul.  Same thoughts here wrt  your statements.  I believe I know your heart, and that you do have respect for the scriptures.  However, I also believe we need to be very careful in this area, that we can easily get on a slippery slope that some will use for license to begin to negate scripture and come up with their own apostacies.  I agree, we obviously don't have the originals.  However, there is a tremendous amount of reverence within scripture, that scripture gives to itself, including for instance, Ps. 119:89.  IMO, this verse cannot be explained away, so our reasoning has to somehow reconcile to this.  To do so,  I go this route; I believe the original words spoken by God, were totally, purely perfect.  Man's hands wrote it down, with all our frailties and imperfections.  But God's hand was still on it, because He gave us what He wants us to know.  However, I also believe in progressive revelation, as and when God wills.  So, to me that means He uses what He gave us, and then shows us more about it, including translational issues, as well as revelation about what's there.  But within those pages is still God's voice, in written form, although He may continue to clarify it for us...but it's my stance, that that will never be against actual scripture (excluding any corruptions, mistranslations).  The oldest manuscripts agree up to 99%, which to me, means if we were able, we could eventually have a translation that is very close to what was actually originally transcribed.  So, I believe we have God's logos, that He's protected it and will continue allowing us to see more and more of it as suits His purpose.  So again, IMO, the logos (written), the rhema (spoken/revealed---although there is evidence those words are actually used interchangeably rather than the hairs we try to split with it sometimes), and Jesus manifesting in flesh---as Molly said, God's thoughts---which I like to refer to as the Truths of God---is The Word of God. 

God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 09:33:48 PM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2008, 10:12:14 PM »
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Whenever we speak the truth about anything, we are worshipping the Father.  When our native language becomes the truth, we are becoming the word of God.

Mickiel

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2008, 10:38:19 PM »

Concerning the Word of God, there is a componant involved that needs to be understood, such as " Righteousness, or even the calling of God." God has given his Word already, and continues to give it, but that does not mean it will be reconized and perceived as such. The calling of God, or even Righteousness, does not mean Gods Word will be readily reconized as being his Word. Jesus again in Matthews 13:17;"For truly I say unto you ( and keep in mind this is a private explination to his disciples) that many Prophets and Righteous men desired to see what you see, and didnot see it. And to hear what you hear and didnot hear it." Being called of God, or being a Prophet, or being righteous, or one who obeys Gods Word as you know it, does not mean even you will reconize Gods Word, as being Gods Word.

Even a called out person, even a teacher of Gods Word, even an obedient follower of God, holds no garentee that they will always reconize Gods Word, as being Gods Word. And this conversation was prompted by followers of God who suggest that the bible is not the Word of God in some areas. Its not that they are blind, its just that the dispensation of Truth is directed by God to flow as God desires it to flow. The diciples were placed in a position of " Having to know and Believe certain things", certain things that even prophets before them held no need , in Gods eyes, to be aware of. Conversely, we who now live have been placed in a " Position to know certain things that those before us held no need to know." Those after us will continue in this pattern. But as " The need to know increases", so will the adverse effects of that reality continue.

The adverse effects includes the oppisition to the truth and its effort to pervert the truth, its deception must also evolve in order to try to compensate for what God is doing. It must continue to try to capture righteous minds and deceive, it must still go after prophets, it must still seek to distort teachers, some of which don't even yet know they are prophets and teachers.

The Word of God is the foundation of Truth, and that foundation will continually be attacked and efforts made to water it down.

Peace.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2008, 10:43:50 PM »
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

 3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

--2 Cor 3



Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.



"epistle"

G1992
ἐπιστολή
epistolē
ep-is-tol-ay'
From G1989; a written message: - "epistle", letter.



G1989
ἐπιστέλλω
epistellō
ep-ee-stel'-lo
From G1909 and G4724; to enjoin (by writing), that is, (generally) to communicate by letter (for any purpose): - write (a letter, unto).


We are the epistle of Christ--God's word written on our hearts and mind, enjoined to the saints by the Word of God.
 :mshock:

 :bgdance:


« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 10:59:58 PM by Molly »

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2008, 10:55:09 PM »
I've heard a similar statement by quite a few scholars over the years.  Just the other day heard Josh McDowell make the statement like this:  You can take every single ancient manuscript of the New Testament and destroy it, and within 150 to 200 years of the writing of the New Testament, it's possible to reconstruct all but 11 verses of the New Testament by using the writings of the early Church Fathers where in their sermons, journals, epistles, etc., they quoted the New Testament thousands of times.  There is zero reason to ever question the veracity of the New Testament because of that historical fact.

One of PT's favorite verses is the one where Paul's saying that though they're regarded as deceivers, they're speaking the truth.  He puts an odd spin on that verse as though he were relishing the Platonic doctrine of Reserve that some of the early Church Fathers got into about lying to the Church being acceptable if it protected the flock from sin, from wandering away from the teachings of Christ, etc.  St. Paul was not saying that he was on a mission from God to be a liar in some contexts so that the glory of God would in some demented/twisted way be furthered by that.  If he couldn't get into deeper aspects of the Covenants because of the maturity level of the believers, then he'd simply clam up or go back over and over the same things about the crucifixion without necessarily getting into the deeper implications and ramifications of that where life for absolutely all would abound.  Or he'd just move on to the next town to evangelize and start a Church while the previous fellowship that he taught would be left in the hands of the Holy Spirit and of someone he ordained to lead so that they could work out the implications of their own salvation with fear and trembling.

I'm still comforted by the fact that it was one of the Churches with the most problems in the New Testament -- Corinth -- that got the complete revelation of 1Corinthians 15.  That tells me something about the nature of our Lord.  Even when we're at our worst or our most feeble, He'll still see to it that the truth is left in our hands as a seed for the day that we're really ready for it.  We can be the most irresponsible teenagers and the keys to the new Jaguar or Bentley are there waiting for us for when we show even the slightest incling of genuinely being ready to stop killing ourselves and those around us so we can go to all of the places that He has for us in life.

Mickiel

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2008, 11:07:32 PM »

The Word of God is constant and true, comming from his mouth, but our perception OF IT is not constant, which affects the truth of it to us. As in the analogy of the Pancake, one side of it may seem different than the other side of it, one may cook it different than another, others may instill different ingredients, but it is, at its root, still a pancake. The Word of God will always be the Word of God, no matter what we do with it. No matter how we perceive it, no matter how one understands it, no matter how differently it affects each individual, it still is what it is, it is we who are different.

What God brings new to our understanding, is still from the same Word he has spoken long ago, and still what he speaks now, because he does not change. Again Jesus in Matt. 13:52, we bring forth out from the treasure of Gods Word, things OLD and things NEW! We are a new creation, but yes, Gods Word is  old in one sense, but new to us in another.

But you know I have often wondered , in considering the mind of God, just what new things he comes up with in his mind. Now that is a thought. Something new in Gods figuring of things.

Well humanity is just that, something new in Gods mind. Jesus made into flesh, something new in Gods mind, a bible for humanity, again, something new in Gods mind. A bible, a treasure with things old and new.

Peace.

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2008, 12:19:58 AM »
Agree, Mickiel and Martin.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Whenever we speak the truth about anything, we are worshipping the Father.  When our native language becomes the truth, we are becoming the word of God.

Hi Molly.  I understand this a little differently, in that yes, we are to worship in spirit and truth, and we can only really understand scripture, the Word (logos, rhema, Jesus, God's thoughts/truths) unless and until it's Holy Spirit revealed.  However, as far as us becoming the word of God, I don't make that connection.  I see it more as us sharing the Word of God.  What other thoughts do you have on that that might clarify it? 

Also, what's your specific POV wrt Psalm 119:89?  My understanding is that God's Word is Jesus, but it's also every truth of God, including His logos.  Jesus manifested all of God.  Thanks, James.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 12:23:02 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2008, 01:04:14 AM »
We are the epistle of Christ--God's word written on our hearts and mind, enjoined to the saints by the Word of God.
 :mshock:

 :bgdance:

 :goodpost: The KJV says in the book of Acts, concerning a big revival that had broken out and people getting saved that "the Word of God multiplied."  We were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God that liveth and abideth to the age.  The Word of God became flesh and walked among us, and when someone is born again, the Word of God becomes flesh and walks among us :Sparkletooth:

Oh, I know of more than one preacher that's had a dirty book written about/against them because of this, but we are predestined to be comformed to the image of Jesus Christ.  The Holy Spirit writes His laws upon our hearts and dwells in us and walks in us, He's our God, and we're His people.  Lord Jesus, in Your High Priestly ministry, keep writing on the scroll of my life pleeeeeeeeeez :cloud9:

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2008, 01:56:47 AM »
Yes, I agree with everyone.


With Martin-- because this is talking about a group of people--

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.


Acts 12:24
But the word of God grew and multiplied.


With Jab, regarding every word in the Bible--


Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



89For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.--Psa 119


And, moreso settled because he is the alpha and the omega--

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


With Mickiel regarding something old and something new--

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.


We get the old from God and, also, the new--

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. --Rev 21



The Lord Jesus is the Word of God, the Word become flesh, with God and was God, the beginning and the end,  and the firstborn of many brothers.

He does it all!

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2008, 03:32:44 AM »
Brother Martin and Sister Molly.  Thanks for exploring within scripture, blessings to you.  I do have a bit of a doctrinal hair to split with this, see what you think.  I see Acts 6:7 saying at least 2 different (though connected) things.  Yes, it was talking about a group of people, but not that group as being The Word.  The Greek Interlinear bears that out, as it refers to the logos spreading, so then more disciples (learners) were made.  It says "kai ho logos ho theos auxanO kai plEthunO ho arithmos ho mathEtEs", translated as "and the saying/word of-the God grows-up and was multiplied the number of the learners/disciples".  So, again, doctrinally, I don't see us as being the Word of God, but rather spreading/sharing the Word of God.  God living in us, us being His sons and daughters, but I don't see us as being divine.  Aren't we partakers of the divine because He allows it and has grafted us in, but still we're not the Divine?  What say ye?  Do you have more to 'da story?  Mickiel and others, what do you see here?  God's blessings, James.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 03:48:57 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2008, 04:25:54 AM »
Thoughts are formed by words within the mind--




16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

--1 Cor 2



5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

--Phil 2



4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


--Eph 2

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2008, 07:47:10 AM »
Of course there's the 82nd Psalm that Jesus interpreted for us in John chapter 10.  And we're under a better covenant established upon better promises according to the book of Hebrews.  When Jesus breathed upon the disciples, the image and likeness of God was restored in the earth after the mar of sin.  And as you know, the blazing inferno that Moses couldn't look at and live came right in and sat upon each of them on the day of Pentecost and they were filled with the Holy Spirit and the blazing inferno that John the Baptist talked about Jesus baptizing people with.  Many of us here have had that same experience.  Some of us have even had the Acts 4:31 baptism.  Jesus said in John chapter 17, "Father, the glory which You've given Me, I've given them that they may be One even as We are One."  And of course, 2Peter chapter 1 says:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Oh, this one will get me burned at the stake, but, what else is new?  We have His righteousness, don't we?

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God. (1Corinthians 4:5)


HE TOOK THIS THING FAR ENOUGH TO WHERE HE'S NEVER GOING TO LOSE A SINGLE ONE OF US EVER AGAIN.  JESUS WAS AND IS THE RANSOM.  WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU WORTH TO GOD??


Compare 1Corinthians 4:5 (quoted above) with this passage:


17 The LORD your God is with you,
       he is mighty to save.
       He will take great delight in you,
       he will quiet you with his love,
       he will rejoice over you with singing.
(Zephaniah 3:17 NIV)

17 The LORD your God is in your midst,
         A victorious warrior
         He will exult over you with joy,
         He will be quiet in His love,
         He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy.
(Zephaniah 3:17 NASB)

jabcat

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2008, 07:52:24 AM »
Martin, I'm all out of stakes today...and I'm sure you don't want a steak...God loves us, that's for sure. 

James, leading the chorus; sing along

Thou Art Worthy.
Thou Art Worthy.
Thou Art Worthy, Oh Lord
To Receive Glory, Glory and Honor.
Glory and Honor and Power.
For Thou Hast Created, Hast All Things Created.
For Thou Hast Created All Things.
And for Thy Pleasure, They Are Created.
Thou Art Worthy, Oh Lord.

God's blessing, James.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 07:54:36 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2008, 08:05:12 AM »
5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

 6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [Yehôvâh Tsedeq]



--Jer 23
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 08:10:36 AM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2008, 08:42:36 AM »

James,

I certainly understand that slippery slope, I just think it can be on both sides.

There are those continually trying to water down the validity of the bible in order to build the case that there is nothing more significant to the bible that reading any other book.

On the other hand,  The word of God in most conversations is talking about the bible.  the conversation may progress to clarify things more specifically, but the first assumption is that the bible is the word of God.  Ok, so then, with that assumption we can show that most if not all translations of the bible have been revised.  Those revisions are necessary to correct errors.

The logical and reasonable conclusion is that if man translated the bible and there are errors, then what errors are in the manuscripts we have since they are reasoned to have been written by men.


Since the claim of inerrancy is a key factor in the bibles authority, there is the slippery slope I was talking about.  If doubt can be cast upon that claim, then the fight for spiritual survival is to preserve the assertion.


So, is it possible, that a book that may not be perfect, as we might assert what perfection should be still have authority in our lives?

I believe it can.

The solution to me is I want to live my life by the bible because of the story I believe it contains.  And that story is that ALL will be reconciled unto a supreme spiritual being that is inherantly LOVE. 

That story applies to EVERYONE like no other philosphy that exists.

And that is that this life is worth something and it matters nothing of the ability of any person to give it that purpose.   

The argument of inerrancy can be tossed aside as meaningless.









jabcat

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2008, 09:49:55 AM »
Again, the earliest manuscripts agree up to 99%, so IMO, that's very significant.  I don't use the term inerrancy, I use the terms trustworthiness, sufficient, and inspired, which is what scripture says about itself.  And again, IMO, the Word of God is God's Truths, in whatever form He chooses to present them...logos, rhema, His Son in flesh...It seems to me that if we don't accept what scripture says about itself, that God's logos is set to the ages, then anything can be questioned or disputed, including the "story" to which you allude.  By God's grace I maintain it's more than a story...it's part of the Word of God, and it is settled in the heavens.  James.

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2008, 10:14:58 AM »
One of the reasons why I lean towards inerrancy is because of my upbringing.  I grew up where that was dogma #1.  My second reason for leaning towards that is that I'm UR.  It was a foregone conclusion with me that I would not accept the doctrine if there were two or three verses that I couldn't account for in the entire Bible because "by the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established."  Were the perfection of the Bible in jeapardy, my reasoning is that it would have been the absolute best goods that would have been compromised and I'd of been another person like C.S. Lewis and others who would have said "well, you can't ever genuinely really know until judgment day!" 

I would expect the same variations between Kings, Chronicles, and Samuel's two books as I would expect of the 4 Gospels that if we're talking about different eye-witnesses to the events, then different people would emphasize different things.  And if the stories were taken down too perfectly, then we'd of been more prone to figure that someone made it all up!

When people say that the Bible has errors, I've yet to find a single one of their "errors" to be something other than either translational issues, things in the Psalms, prophets, and Solomon's writings that they just honestly didn't understand what was being talked about, or the type of differences you'd expect between different witnesses to the same events that didn't compare notes before they told their stories.  There's a question about whether a verse in 1John 5 is in the earliest manuscripts, along with the situation with the woman taken in the act of adultery, a portion of the Great Commission in Mark 16, and one or two other passages as to whether they're genuinely a part of the earliest manuscripts.  There's the occasional question between different copies of manuscripts about the spelling of a name, and whether Revelation 13's prophecy should be read as 616 or 666.  The variations are not doctrinally relevant questions from the standpoint that there's not a single doctrine that I can think of that any group in Christianity holds to that's in the least bit of jeapardy.  BTW: the correct number for Revelation 13 is very likely 666 because of how 666 is used elsewhere in the Bible, but I won't get into that here 'cause I don't have a Concordance handy for looking up the passages in question and 'cause it's after 2am where I'm at.

When people say that the Bible is inerrant, 95% of the people that are saying that based upon what they've looked into are making that assessment regarding what you can dig out of the Bible doctrinally, historically, philosophically (as each context and situation is taken into consideration for it's parameters), scientifically (again, rightly translated), and regarding it's consistency with regards to it's description of the Creation event, the crucifixion and resurrection, and eschatological matters.  It's usually not a claim to every single detail of every single ancient manuscript being essentially identical, but that all important matters are reconstructable by the translators who have the oldest and most reliable manuscripts with which to compare variant readings with their current understanding of what the Bible teaches for the finer points on a number, a name, or a symbol.  Because we're all at different levels of light on the purposes of God, obviously the harmony of different portions of the Bible are going to be most important to us as opposed to what might be deemed essential by the Church down the street from the ancient manuscripts.  All of us in Christianity have all of these wide ranging and sometimes opposite doctrines from one another, and yet each of us are able to still agree upon the 66 books of the Judeo-Christian Bible.  That is a degree of harmony and veracity in the ancient manuscripts that I genuinely don't think that 90% of Universalists ever really think through and appreciate for just a minute.

The miracle isn't just in how few and far between minor variations are, but in the fact that throughout the last 20 centuries we've not had huge religious wars over the inclusion of the book of Enoch or the general Epistle of Barnabas, or Clement of Rome's 1st epistle, or the odes of Solomon, etc.  Some have wanted to toss 2nd and 3rd John, Revelation, James, and one or two other epistles out, but although there have been brutal murders over every other area of faith and practice, I don't think that just tons and tons of blood shed occured over those particular questions about what's included in our New Testament.  I could be totally wrong about that, but to my knowledge there's been a surprising degree of agreement on which books of the Bible, even if there have been very violent squabbles over what each of those books actually taught and whether or not the common masses had a right to a copy in their own language. 

I don't buy these stories that ancient priests adulterated it as badly as some books have claimed 'cause remember:  the Bible wasn't in the hands of the people and the Church at one point never intended for the masses to ever get their hands on it.  It was considered TOP SECRET; CLASSIFIED, etc.  And because the Church was sooo early divided between the Eastern and Western Orthodox, how would you have gotten those two earliest denominations to have agreed upon how to adulterate it?  There's a lot of questions like that that I've never seen conspiracy theorists and historical revisionists successfully deal with.

Offline firstborn888

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1080
  • Gender: Male
  • Not all those who wander are lost
Re: What is the Word of God?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2008, 10:43:36 AM »
 Hello all,   
 My contention is not to undermine the bible, but to point out that the bible itself (by the wisdom contained therein) steers us away from deifying itself. A key verse is John 5:39 "search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. But it is these which testify about me". So then if the scriptures are literally the "Word of God" why couldn't eternal life be found in them? Because they simply testified of the Living Word which was to come. The bible is a path TO the Word.   

Another key verse is John 16:13 "However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come".

Another is 1st John 2:27: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him". So the bible serves to point us to receive the anointing and to the know Him who is the Word, not to itself be the Word. To deify the bible as the literal Word of God is un-biblical and is idolatry -  exactly what the bible warns against!

John 6:67: Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life". They knew they could no longer fall back upon the shadow of Him whom the scriptures said was to come. He was now here.

John 16:2: "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service". Why would they be put out and even killed? Because they claimed someone greater than Moses was here, someone greater than what was perceived to be the "Word of God" by the mainstream religion of the day.

I must say that the same exists today. There are scores of churches and seminaries who reverence the bible as the absolute authority in all things, and from it they form the world view of an angry wrathful God who is ready and more than willing to obliterate mankind from His presence forever. So, even they know the bible forwards and backwards they don't know the Word . They camp out on the door which leads them to the Word and proclaim that the door IS the Word and so remain in spiritual darkness.

The best example I know are Calvinists. By the bible they systematically prove that most humans are hated by God as His non-elect (as He hated Esau) and that God only loves those whom He pre-elected to love. And the great purpose is to show His power and greatness and to show that He can do whatever He wants. What's missing from all this? It's all in the bible for sure - but they stopped there. They did not go through the door to know the "Word of God".

I hope this helps some to understand that I am not anti-bible, in fact, I believe what I am saying is promoted in scripture.

During the reformation the myth of papal infallibility was exposed. But the protestants elected a new infallible idol to worship, a new kind of 'pope' if you will. Most don't want to speak to God and hear from Him personally. Like the children of Israel - they want a leader to do that for them and read a book to learn about God but keep God Himself at a distance. How do I know He is distant to many? Because they say things like "How could we know anything about God if not for this book?" That tells me volumes right there.

Professional preachers say "The bible is the Word of God!" over and over and over many thousands of times a day, as if saying it over an over makes it true. That's why it is so hard to speak to the contrary. 

I have spent countless hours studying scripture. A friend supported me for a full year when I first came to Christ so that I could fast and study day and night. I love love LOVE my bibles - all of them, because they all lead me to the "Word of God". 

blessings,
 - Byron

PS "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now". - Jesus