Author Topic: What does sinning unto death mean?  (Read 2315 times)

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Full of Questions

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What does sinning unto death mean?
« on: December 06, 2010, 07:18:50 PM »
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Another Bible passage that I'm not sure of.  I want to believe in universal salvation...and sometimes I get confused by passages such as the one above.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 07:41:57 PM »
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Another Bible passage that I'm not sure of.  I want to believe in universal salvation...and sometimes I get confused by passages such as the one above.


What is it exactly that confuses you?  Do you think the word "death" in that passage may mean eternal damnation as some might?

Full of Questions

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 07:45:09 PM »
I think there are people who have interpreted the passage that way...or to mean annihilation.  There seems to be a lot of passages to support universal salvation, but there are some passages that I'm not sure work along those lines.  I wonder if there's a different way to interpret them.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 08:28:42 PM »
I think there are people who have interpreted the passage that way...or to mean annihilation.  There seems to be a lot of passages to support universal salvation, but there are some passages that I'm not sure work along those lines.  I wonder if there's a different way to interpret them.

Yes there is a different way.


The passage appears to define unbelief as the sin unto death.  The question that then remains for me is if God allows for someone to never believe and therefore remain in death.

The answer is then in scripture when it says death is defeated, so what conclusion can be drawn if death is defeated?


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 08:56:24 PM »
The wages of sin is death.
Does that mean everyone is doomed FOQ?
Everyone sinned. But that won't stop salavation. Theft is a sin. But Jesus said to the crucified thief he would also enter paradise.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 08:57:56 PM »
I think there are people who have interpreted the passage that way...or to mean annihilation.  There seems to be a lot of passages to support universal salvation, but there are some passages that I'm not sure work along those lines.  I wonder if there's a different way to interpret them.

Yes there is a different way.


The passage appears to define unbelief as the sin unto death.  The question that then remains for me is if God allows for someone to never believe and therefore remain in death.

The answer is then in scripture when it says death is defeated, so what conclusion can be drawn if death is defeated?
Death ends. Agreed. The commentary in my Bible points to a verse that's about the so called unpardonable sin. Blasphemy of  the HS.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 09:09:27 PM »
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Another Bible passage that I'm not sure of.  I want to believe in universal salvation...and sometimes I get confused by passages such as the one above.

Hi,

The way I understand this verse is:  It is kind of like the sin against the Holy Spirit.  James is saying if one sins and don't repent before they die it is considered a sin unto death.
These verses might help you to understand this a little better.
(Rom. 6:15-16)  (2Peter 3:20)

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 09:16:58 PM »
I read it otherwise.
"unto death" doesn't mean until you die but that sin schedules you for LoF :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline claypot

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 10:44:50 PM »
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Another Bible passage that I'm not sure of.  I want to believe in universal salvation...and sometimes I get confused by passages such as the one above.

a lot goes on inside a person, that's for sure. i say this because i think these words are saying something about ourselves as well as us in relation to each other but what are they saying you ask?

what do you think it means 'a sin unto death'?

could it mean there is a strain of sin that causes death that we should not pray against, like when Adam ate of the tree? it's a sin that has a function to perform.

i don't know.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline urpilgrim

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 10:51:26 PM »
J.W.Hanson explained it well I believe ....

"This scripture really has nothing to do with eternal punishments but temporal punishments - meaning "punishments relating to this life." "The sin unto death" has often been supposed to be the "unpardonable sin" as though any sin could be unpardonable by a God whose mercy is without limit and without end...... The apostle was probably alluding to the various offences under the Jewish law, some of which were unto death or capital offences, while others were considered less serious. He may have been saying once a person is in the hands of death penalty authorities it is too late. The less serious sins were to be interceded for but the sins that resulted in death were to be regarded as beyond intercession. Or John could have been referring to sins committed out of immaturity, ignorance or other lesser offenses in contrast to those that somehow bring about grave consequences or the death of a person."

Bible Threatenings Explained  by J.W. Hanson  You should check it out. He covers I believe every possible verse in the scriptures that may be used by ET folks.. even though I think sometimes he over spiritualizes some scriptures.
If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save ALL of His creation makes me a heretic, then sign me up!

Offline shawn

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 11:00:17 PM »
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Another Bible passage that I'm not sure of.  I want to believe in universal salvation...and sometimes I get confused by passages such as the one above.

a lot goes on inside a person, that's for sure. i say this because i think these words are saying something about ourselves as well as us in relation to each other but what are they saying you ask?

what do you think it means 'a sin unto death'?

could it mean there is a strain of sin that causes death that we should not pray against, like when Adam ate of the tree? it's a sin that has a function to perform.

i don't know.

cp

Interesting thought. 

1 Corinthians 5:5

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.


There is sin that we should turn believers over to.  That sin leads to death of his sinful nature in order that they may be saved.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2010, 09:09:10 PM »
I think what John is saying is that when we see brothers or sisters committing lesser sins we can pray for them and God will give them life- by way of the vine, our connection allows the sharing of life and forgiveness through prayer. I believe tha sins unto death that require more than our prayer to restore a fellow believer into "life" (a vibrant connection to the vine). It is a sin that was penalized by death under the old covenant. Deliberate malicious murder, adultery & witchcraft for instance were penalized by death under the old covenant, whereas theft was penalized by restitution.

Only repentance on the part of the offender will suffice for sins unto death. These are the sins for which, as Shawn pointed out, an unrepentant brother or sister might be delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit might be saved on the day of the Lord.

 1 Corinthians 5:5 is a proof text that shows clearly that one can pay the penalty of sin...."death", and not be liable to eternal torment or annihilation. It clearly shows a person who is penalized for the purpose of a corrective recovery of their spirit on the day of the Lord.

HOW AWESOME!
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2010, 10:16:05 PM »
 :cloud9: Paul and Moses were murderers. Clearly, they sinned unto death under the law, yet God restored them and used them both mightily. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2010, 11:01:47 PM »
Yes He did.....  and we kno in Davids case at least, He pursued their repentance and secured it. I definitely believe God forgives those sins.... as my favorite Psalm attests :o)

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
(Psa 51:1-19)
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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2010, 08:30:33 PM »
I think there are people who have interpreted the passage that way...or to mean annihilation.  There seems to be a lot of passages to support universal salvation, but there are some passages that I'm not sure work along those lines.  I wonder if there's a different way to interpret them.

Death and Judgment are only temporary.  But you would still warn a small child against playing with knives, because you know that they could get severely cut, but the injury is most likely only temporary.  However some will state the passage just ends with "Gehenna of Fire", "lose their life", "Sin unto death".  assuming that it makes the consequences final.  However when you warn someone of the consequences of playing with knives, you dont tell them they will get cut and then in a couple days be healed from that cut.  You just say "Your gonna be injured".  The people knew what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of Fire, Judgment and punishment.  Considering that they knew Fire symbolized purification, and that Judgment was temporary calamity to get people to see the errors of their ways.  So Jesus did not need to explain all that to the disciples. 

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2011, 08:37:28 PM »
SIN UNTO DEATH.



"If a man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." 1 John 5:16,17.



This passage has been sadly misinterpreted, not only by many honest and sincere Christians, but its meaning has not always been apparent to some learned theologians. Some have supposed that it referred to what is called the "unpardonable sin," for the forgiveness of which we should not pray. But some of the most eminent commentators admit that the apostle here made no reference to the sin against the Holy Ghost. "I do not think," says Adam Clarke, "the passage has anything to do with what is termed the sin against the Holy Ghost, which I have proved no man can now commit." The evident design of the apostle was to cultivate a heavenly disposition and temper in his brethren, and a tender spirit toward the erring. Under the Jewish law some sins were punishable with death, and those who committed offences, the penalty of which was death, were said to commit a sin unto death, or a sin worthy of death. They were not to pray for the deliverance of such an offender from the penalty of violated law. There were many offences which the law did not punish with death; and the sin not being unto death, the apostles were to labor for the restoration of such offenders and seek to restore them to the paths of virtue and peace, that they might become again useful members of society. Bishop Home, we think, gives the true meaning of this passage. He says:



"The Talmudical writers have distinguished the capital punishments of the Jews into lesser deaths, and such as were more grievous; but there is no warrant in the Scriptures for these distinctions, neither are these writers agreed among themselves what particular punishments are to be referred to these two heads. A capital crime generally was termed a sin of death, (Deut. 17:6); or, a sin worthy of death, (Deut. 21:22); which mode of expression is adopted, or rather imitated, by the apostle John, who distinguishes between a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:16). Criminals, or those who were deemed worthy of capital punishment, were called sons or men of death, (1 Sam. 20:32; 31:16; 2 Sam. 19:28, marg. reading), just as he who had incurred the punishment of scourging was designated a son of stripes, (Deut. 25:16; 1 Kings 14:6). A similar phraseology was adopted by Jesus Christ, when he said to the Jews: Ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:21, 24). Eleven different sorts of capital punishments are mentioned in the sacred writings."



What is meant then by the sin unto death, was a sin deserving of death under the Jewish law, and for which there was pardon, and the Christians were not to pray for the deliverance of such from the penalty of violated law. But they were to pray for the forgiveness of those who did not commit a sin deserving of death. This we regard as the correct interpretation of this controverted passage, and do not think it had any reference to the immortal world, or the ultimate condition of the human soul.


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2011, 11:36:29 PM »
 well,I would think the 'jews' lost their right to dispense 'justice' and to judge when they condemned an innocent man.Why,even the Romans saw in him

  nothing worthy of death.,I beleive THEY EVEN INSISTED ON A THEIF BEING RELEASED'Barrabus?".  Romans 13;1  Everyone must submit to the

 governing authorities,for there is no authority except that which God established....for rulers hold no terror for those who do right[?][meaning

  fear not those who kill the body]


  Mt 4;8  Again the devil took him to a very High mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour,'all this

  I will give you if you bow down and worship me"   He gives rulership to those who worship him[satan]accusor of the brethern




   was the Holy spirit usurping these authorities when Peter was  broke out of prisonActs 12;6 Granted..when he went to the house they were all praying

  [for him?]

   there are many people of late serving long prison sentences and or on death row/who have been exonerated d/t DNA divine nature activated



   I thought we were not to judge by appearances[if a man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death]   John 8;15  You judge by human

  standards.I pass judgement on no one.   Judge not lest ye be judged. If any one of you is without sin,let him cast the first stone at her[wittness' lacking?]

   Appointed time of Judgement  Rev 1;3 11;18,


   WHO WILL PRAY FOR US FOR THE PENALTY OF VIOLATED LAW?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2011, 11:40:15 PM »
wow!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 06:18:37 PM »
The key word there in my opinion is condemn. They condemned an innocent man. I won't repeat it here, but i did a study on the word judge/judgment(also damn/damnation/condemnation,etc.). There are, like hell/sheol/hades/gehenna several words that are translated judge/judgment, with very little consistency (apart from the consistent theological prejudice of the translators). Some meaning "discern", some mean "condemn", some meane "critically evaluate", some mean "pass a sentence".

We are to discern evryone, but condemn no one. We speak the truth in love(the manifestation of discernment with an intent to reconcile and restore).

We are instant in season and out, reproving the works of darkness.

We shout from the housetops what is hidden in darkness, but we arent supposed to throw anyone off the rooftop as we do it ;o)

anakrino, lends more to objective discernment as in the presentation of the facts at a trial or an evaluation(1 Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man)

krisis, lends more to being "condemned" to the extent that sentence is passed after a trial (Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 06:21:39 PM »
Good words Eaglesway! :grin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 06:56:39 PM »
 

    Isaaih 29;21     those who with a 'WORD" make a man out to be guilty...who ensnare the defender in court

    Matt 26;63   TELL US IF YOU ARE THE CHRIST THE SON OF GOD

   'YES IT IS AS YOU SAY...But I say to all of you in the future you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One,

   and coming on the clouds of heaven

       Then the High Preist tore his clothes and said,'HE HAS SPOKEN BLASPHEMY,WHY DO WE NEED ANY MORE WITTNESSES.....

     HE IS WORTHY OF DEATH THEY ANSWERED


Offline sheila

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 07:00:41 PM »
....and that is why,even unto this day..if you should test a spirit to see if it be of Christ...it will not confess..the word of God come in flesh

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2011, 07:44:19 PM »
He Is
I Am

Offline sheila

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2011, 08:08:33 PM »
 Matt 8;29

     two demon possed men coming from the tombs met him.They were so violent that no man could pass that way,'

      'WHAT DO YOU WANT WITH US,SON OF GOD,they shouted HAVE YOU COME HERE TO TORTURE US BEFORE THE APPOINTED TIME

     Mark 5;7   when Jesus got out of the boat, a man[two men] WITH AN EVIL SPIRIT came out  from the tombs to meet him....

   v 6    WHEN HE SAW JESUS FROM A DISTANCE, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him, 'WHAT DO YOU WANT WITH ME,JESUS,SON OF GOD?

   SWEAR TO GOD THAT YOU WON'T TORTUE ME!   For Jesus had said, 'COME OUT OF HIM YOU EVIL SPIRIT"....they were sent into the pigs


   look carefully at those expecting a fearful judgement[evil spirits]   Note two men and one man...note son of perdition in expectant condemnation..and

  what He says...note the one that bows..... watch who goes off into cutting off,and is done away by his breath

   as Jesus was getting into the boat,the man who had been demon possessed begged to go with him...He told him to go home and tell what mercy was showed to him


      Now children,you need to look at this very carefully to discern those who await/expect a fearful judgement......you also need to be able to discern

  that which the wrath side of God's judgement is aimed at.   The wrath of God is always directed to the evil spirits/kingdom of wickedness...and NOT

 at mankind.  The problem is many are overcome,and given over to satan for the destruction of their flesh...these serve as negative examples  of

  the kingdom of darkness, whether Pharoah,Herod,Jezebel etc


    You see...we are the seed of God/man is in His image/nature....these spirits move in and manifest openly the evil works...and where there is no evil

  spirit..there is no sin or wickedness manifest openly

   the man of sin is just this....the entering[KNOWING] of sin[evil spirit] of good and evil tree.....to KNOW is to be ONE FLESH/UNION..... tree of the KNOWledge

   of good[God] and evil[satan]......and Adam knew Eve[become one flesh]

   He is going to deliver all mankind from their body undergoing this death     Understanding this can go a long way towards clearing up the destruction/wrath

  side of judgement/lest you stumble.     for we are two men in one bed  one is taken and the other is left behind

     

Offline sheila

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Re: What does sinning unto death mean?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2011, 09:46:23 PM »
  the very First Law/Commandment of God...Gen 2....and the Lord God commanded the man...you are free to eat of any tree of the garden...

   BUT YOU MUST NOT EAT OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL....FOR WHEN YOU EAT OF IT YOU SHALL SURELY DIE

    sin in the flesh is condemned...the original serpent the original tree the First Adam...and the image of the corrupt

   John 12;49   For I did not speak of my own accord,but the Father who sent me commandmed me what to say and how to say it.

   I know that his command leads unto eternal life, so whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say

      the prince of this world comes and he has nothing in me

    Look up the meaning of the words    Gedarenes in Matt and Mark.....the strangers that He says...I do not 'know' you   stranger

      the commandment was unto life