Author Topic: What does "Justification" mean to you?  (Read 2291 times)

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Offline reFORMer

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Re: What does "Justification" mean to you?
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2009, 07:02:24 AM »
The Bible teaches a perfect parallel to Adam and Christ. The first Adam MADE everyone sinners. Was everyone just reckoned a sinner, or actually MADE sinners when death entered into the world? Obviously everyone was MADE a sinner subject to death of the carnal mind.

What is the polar opposite of that? Declared righteousness while still in slavery? No, because Adam's transgression did not make everyone sinners only by declaration, but in actuality. So the polar opposite to Adam's result, is that Christ's raised LIFE does MAKE people righteous, when before they were in bondage to sin.

It is somewhat of a diversion from "justification;" but, I don't believe the Scripture teaches the foregoing doctrine called, "original sin," another phrase that isn't from the Bible, but is from Roman Catholic tradition.  There is something like "original death," and "...sin reigns in [the domain of] death..." (Rm 5:21)

The apostle, teaching about judgment and that it is not the hearers, but rather the doers of God's law that are justified, points out, "...the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands..." (Rm 2:14, CLT)  I was raised with the opposite idea of my "nature."  In fact, it went so far that, without a successful conversion experience, by default I was to be tortured ceaselessly for ever for just being born here.  I started out damned for Adam's sin.  My original nature was altogether evil.  This is a horrible foundation in a child's life and is hard to be rid of later.  One lives a life of dread, the whole sense of self always under condemnation.  It was never taught that "by nature" I would do God's will, as Paul pointed to in the passage just quoted.

Scripture also teaches that sin is "against nature." (cf., Rm 2:26-27)  The doctrine of "original sin" keeps millions of people believing humans are inherently evil when we are actually good.  When we "do by nature the things written in the Law," and sin is when we "do those things against nature," this means, though fallen, man is still "good" if not "very good."  ("The Fall" isn't actual Biblical terminology either.)

Through the things that are made, the creation (cf., Rm 1:20) and in our own selves (cf., Rm 1:19, 21-23) God has taught us of Himself and has even revealed Himself in us.  This is spoken of those that do not have the knowledge in the written word.  Paul is certainly not talking about the work of the spirit in the new birth; but, he speaks of the nature of those among the nations (or, gentiles) as they are born of Adam.

Augustine (354-430 AD) seems to be the source of the "original sin" teaching.  It is largely based on taking David's statement about himself regarding adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband Nathan and applying it to everybody.  The KJV illustrates that bias in translating it:  "In sin did my mother conceive me." (Ps 51:5)  Scripture nowhere says sexual intercourse is sin.  Concordant Literal has:  "Behold, I was with (lit., in) depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me."   This is a difficult word, but it doesn't teach an inherently wicked nature is the lot of all humanity other than Jesus.

Another important source Augustine used was the following passage from Romans:
Romns 5:12-14 (CLT)...
12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned --
13 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;
14 nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be.

But Paul did not say the sin of Adam was inherited by the rest of humanity.   He says Adam died for his sin and that death spread to the rest of humanity.  In fact, God's word goes on to say sin and death have no more dominion over humanity because of the victory over all destroying man by Jesus' death and resurrection bringing in a new humanity.

Romans 5:16-17 (CLT)...
16 And not as through one act of sinning is the gratuity. For, indeed, the judgment is out of one into condemnation, yet the grace is out of many offenses into a just award.
17 For if, by the offense of the one, death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


your brother, James Rohde
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Seth

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Re: What does "Justification" mean to you?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2009, 08:09:57 AM »
Quote
But Paul did not say the sin of Adam was inherited by the rest of humanity.  He says Adam died for his sin and that death spread to the rest of humanity.  In fact, God's word goes on to say sin and death have no more dominion over humanity because of the victory over all destroying man by Jesus' death and resurrection bringing in a new humanity.

Romans 5:16-17 (CLT)...
16 And not as through one act of sinning is the gratuity. For, indeed, the judgment is out of one into condemnation, yet the grace is out of many offenses into a just award.
17 For if, by the offense of the one, death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

This is exactly what I am saying. The carnal mind is death. We inherited the condition of death because by Adam death spread to the world.

The word GRACE is also seen here:

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Keeping that in mind, consider: "death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ"

Grace is the deliverance from sin which MAKES people righteous/justified/daikaoo. That is how grace superabounds when death reigns through Adam.

Gilbert

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Re: What does "Justification" mean to you?
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2009, 04:15:45 PM »
The Bible teaches a perfect parallel to Adam and Christ. The first Adam MADE everyone sinners. Was everyone just reckoned a sinner, or actually MADE sinners when death entered into the world? Obviously everyone was MADE a sinner subject to death of the carnal mind.

What is the polar opposite of that? Declared righteousness while still in slavery? No, because Adam's transgression did not make everyone sinners only by declaration, but in actuality. So the polar opposite to Adam's result, is that Christ's raised LIFE does MAKE people righteous, when before they were in bondage to sin.

It is somewhat of a diversion from "justification;" but, I don't believe the Scripture teaches the foregoing doctrine called, "original sin," another phrase that isn't from the Bible, but is from Roman Catholic tradition.  There is something like "original death," and "...sin reigns in [the domain of] death..." (Rm 5:21)

The apostle, teaching about judgment and that it is not the hearers, but rather the doers of God's law that are justified, points out, "...the nations that have no law, by nature may be doing that which the law demands..." (Rm 2:14, CLT)  I was raised with the opposite idea of my "nature."  In fact, it went so far that, without a successful conversion experience, by default I was to be tortured ceaselessly for ever for just being born here.  I started out damned for Adam's sin.  My original nature was altogether evil.  This is a horrible foundation in a child's life and is hard to be rid of later.  One lives a life of dread, the whole sense of self always under condemnation.  It was never taught that "by nature" I would do God's will, as Paul pointed to in the passage just quoted.

Scripture also teaches that sin is "against nature." (cf., Rm 2:26-27)  The doctrine of "original sin" keeps millions of people believing humans are inherently evil when we are actually good.  When we "do by nature the things written in the Law," and sin is when we "do those things against nature," this means, though fallen, man is still "good" if not "very good."  ("The Fall" isn't actual Biblical terminology either.)

Through the things that are made, the creation (cf., Rm 1:20) and in our own selves (cf., Rm 1:19, 21-23) God has taught us of Himself and has even revealed Himself in us.  This is spoken of those that do not have the knowledge in the written word.  Paul is certainly not talking about the work of the spirit in the new birth; but, he speaks of the nature of those among the nations (or, gentiles) as they are born of Adam.

Augustine (354-430 AD) seems to be the source of the "original sin" teaching.  It is largely based on taking David's statement about himself regarding adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband Nathan and applying it to everybody.  The KJV illustrates that bias in translating it:  "In sin did my mother conceive me." (Ps 51:5)  Scripture nowhere says sexual intercourse is sin.  Concordant Literal has:  "Behold, I was with (lit., in) depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me."   This is a difficult word, but it doesn't teach an inherently wicked nature is the lot of all humanity other than Jesus.

Another important source Augustine used was the following passage from Romans:
Romns 5:12-14 (CLT)...
12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned --
13 for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law;
14 nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be.

But Paul did not say the sin of Adam was inherited by the rest of humanity.   He says Adam died for his sin and that death spread to the rest of humanity.  In fact, God's word goes on to say sin and death have no more dominion over humanity because of the victory over all destroying man by Jesus' death and resurrection bringing in a new humanity.

Romans 5:16-17 (CLT)...
16 And not as through one act of sinning is the gratuity. For, indeed, the judgment is out of one into condemnation, yet the grace is out of many offenses into a just award.
17 For if, by the offense of the one, death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


your brother, James Rohde

I am in full agreement with your comments concerning the false thoughtworld behind the idea of 'original sin'.
Thankyou for sharing!

Offline rosered

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Re: What does "Justification" mean to you?
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2009, 04:39:54 PM »

 
  Amen Gilbert ,
  that was good   bro James Rohde!! :HeartThrob:
 
   so  many paint with a broad brush and some  with detailed brush strokes  and I can begin the see/percieve  a picture of   / Christ  in every  WORD  .. I so love when that happens!!
 
  I thought of Cain = "possession"when  READING  your post  about sin having  dominion over ones   thoughts/ and actions , is it not ironic that Cain  being a man , given of the Lord  means possesion ?
  and the wrath of man  does not work the righteousness of God
 
 
 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 


 Gen 4:7   If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 
 
   to me that was the sin that slew his brother/Abel = "breath" in wrath , if than taken spiritually speaking this happens all the time   , when we  dash anothers
  contribution  to God
   I am one  for breaking it down into details ,
  but love it whan some on can speak in the Broad sense  and  I can soar in the heavenlies  :HeartThrob:  God love and bless you  all..

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: What does "Justification" mean to you?
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2009, 08:27:10 PM »
I believe there is a difference between divine justice and justice as defined by the spirit of the world (as Carlene has said).

In a sense, this portion of Ephesians Chapter 1 reads like a Divine Legal Document... and there is a Divine Law, which is spiritual.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.