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Author Topic: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust  (Read 1020 times)

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Offline lomarah

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 05:17:34 PM »
Quote from: reFORMer on December 05, 2012, 08:22:22 AM
I never knew the definition of "glom" before.  The few times I've heard it, or used it, I thought it was something that "glop" did when it was thrown onto something.  It didn't exactly adhere.  It would drip and slide down.  Like when you can't get your brother off your back.  Push him away and he keeps coming back.  He's "glomming onto you."  I wonder what word would replace my misguided idea...

Glooping.  :declare:
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Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 07:07:02 PM »
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 05, 2012, 04:23:33 PM
Fair is justice.

Not so - stay tuned, I'm going to make a major post on this subject later, maybe a new thread.

OK, here it is, from the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts (now renamed, but don't recall the new name):

Justice and Mercy versus Fairness

Justice is based on the universal, unchangeable principles of God's Word. 
Fairness is based on the variable customs of a society and the changing will of the majority.

Justice establishes guilt when God's standards are violated.  Fairness tries to remove guilt by lowering God's standards.

Justice causes us to confess our failures and plead for mercy.  Fairness causes us to justify our failures so that we do not think that we need mercy.

Justice and mercy are based on personal responsibility to a holy God, and they will produce revival in a nation.
Fairness is based on personal rights, and it will produce rebellion within a nation.

Justice is based on protecting eternal values.
Fairness is based on protecting temporal values.

Justice emphasizes personal responsibility.
Fairness emphasizes personal rights.

Justice is the expression of God's wisdom for our nation, and its application will lead to prosperity.
Fairness is the expression of human reasoning for a nation, and its application will lead to financial ruin.

Justice is impartial.  It is objective and non-emotional.
Fairness is partial.  It is subjective and based on arbitrary emotional consideration.


Justice results in the swift prosecution of criminals.
Fairness results in the slow presecution of criminals.

Justice limits the punishment of a criminal.
Fairness results in the inconsistent punishment of a criminal.

Justice establishes God's view of what is essential for a nation to be successful.
Fairness establishes man's view of what is essential for a nation to be successful.

Justice allows an employer to be generous to those who are in special need.
Fairness legislates against an employer's being generous to those in special need.

Justice holds the individual guilty for his offense.
Humanistic laws based on fairness hold society guilty for an individual's offense.

***********************************************************************

Note that God's Word often speaks of Justice and Mercy, but never Fairness.  Also, consider how the USA has declined since the advent of "Fairness Laws."
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 07:28:38 PM by Lazarus Short »
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline VineBranch

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2012, 04:44:14 AM »
Nice post L.S.

Unfortunately it never defines either Fair, or Justice anywhere.  Could you ask the Institute for a definition?  All the dictionaries I have consulted have used 'just' as part of the definitions, or at least as the example of Fair/Fairness.  It could just be a linguistic thing.  A lot of related words merge at some point, and split at others.  I would love to see their definitions.

Don't you find that they might also be setting up some false dichotomies?  Some of those examples are pretty black and white.
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Offline VineBranch

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2012, 04:50:55 AM »
Quote from: reFORMer on December 05, 2012, 08:22:22 AM
I never knew the definition of "glom" before.  The few times I've heard it, or used it, I thought it was something that "glop" did when it was thrown onto something.  It didn't exactly adhere.  It would drip and slide down.  Like when you can't get your brother off your back.  Push him away and he keeps coming back.  He's "glomming onto you."  I wonder what word would replace my misguided idea...

I think lomarah might be onto something here.  Maybe we could use glop as a verb.  Remember in Ghost Busters when Murray said "He slimed me", as in, he made slime adhere to me.  Maybe we could say he glopped me, or he gunked me, or he crudded me.  What do you think?  We could add the contemporary usage of 'up' to it.  He glopped me up, he crudded me up.  Let's phone Websters!!!!!!
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I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:5

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 04:14:10 AM »
Quote from: VineBranch on December 06, 2012, 04:44:14 AM
Nice post L.S.

Unfortunately it never defines either Fair, or Justice anywhere.  Could you ask the Institute for a definition?  All the dictionaries I have consulted have used 'just' as part of the definitions, or at least as the example of Fair/Fairness.  It could just be a linguistic thing.  A lot of related words merge at some point, and split at others.  I would love to see their definitions.

Don't you find that they might also be setting up some false dichotomies?  Some of those examples are pretty black and white.


Fair questions, VB, so I went back to the IBYC literature, and found this:

"Justice is...the application of the principles of God's Word which are totally consistent with His holy character.

Mercy is...the provision which God has made, in that His Son has paid the full price for man's violation of His holy laws.

Fairness is...lowering God's standards to the level that can be achieved with our human will and ability.

Equity is...the application of justice to situations not covered by the law."

It also says, "The word 'fairness' is a good word with a right usage; but our society has distorted the true meaning of fairness and is effectively communicating false ideas through a trusted word."

There is much more, but I hope this bit helps.
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline VineBranch

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2012, 05:18:10 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 10, 2012, 04:14:10 AM

Fair questions, VB, so I went back to the IBYC literature, and found this:

"Justice is...the application of the principles of God's Word which are totally consistent with His holy character.

Mercy is...the provision which God has made, in that His Son has paid the full price for man's violation of His holy laws.

Fairness is...lowering God's standards to the level that can be achieved with our human will and ability.

Equity is...the application of justice to situations not covered by the law."

It also says, "The word 'fairness' is a good word with a right usage; but our society has distorted the true meaning of fairness and is effectively communicating false ideas through a trusted word."

There is much more, but I hope this bit helps.

Excellent, this is great.  Thanks L.S.  this helps a lot.

I also like that they mention the distortion of words; it is a constant struggle.  I've spent years trying to convince the folk at work that adaptation and Darwian evolution are not the same thing and that merging them leads to headaches.  The materialists have convinced a generation that all forms of adaptation prove the existence of interspecial evolution.  It is a bit disheartening.

I would love your take on this:  when Peter says that God no respecter of person (Acts 10: 34, 35), is he saying God is  fair, or just?
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I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:5

Offline jabcat

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2012, 06:04:38 AM »
I saw you apologizing for jumping in on someone else's interaction.  I'll return the favor.   :wink3:  And of course LS can still answer.

Fly In The Ointment Alert!   :laugh:

I'm not sure which word would be used to describe God "not a respecter of persons".  I see people using that to mean that God doesn't treat one person different than another, everyone has "the same chances", etc.  But IMO, looking at the context of the chapter, I'm one that believes it's describing how God saves both Jews and Gentiles through belief on Jesus ("don't call anything common or unclean"), the wall torn down.  Approaching Him is no longer based on the Law, but grace through the blood.

OTOH, I personally believe it's obvious that God treats people and nations differently, and probably always will;  some few rewards, some more;  some many stripes, some few;  faithful over little given more, unfaithful over what they have it's taken away;  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion"'   Israel set aside for a season, Him dealing mostly now with the Gentiles (a veil remains to this very day 2 Cor. 3:24)  "until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, then all Israel shall be saved"... 

Still, I do believe Jesus truly did shed His blood for all, and in the end, all will share in the inheritance - Jew, Gentile, heathen. :2c:

Blessings.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 06:14:03 AM by jabcat »
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2012, 01:36:50 PM »
Ditto Jabcat...
I also think that "no respecter of persons" can mean that money or rank or achievements or beauty or anything that we humans respect has no effect on God.

It's like 2 brothers playing in the sandbox. Dad comes home from work and one of them shouts Daddy! Look at me! I built a better castle than my brother! Of course, this has no effect on how Dad feels toward his sons.
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No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2012, 09:04:26 PM »
Quote from: VineBranch on December 10, 2012, 05:18:10 AM

I would love your take on this:  when Peter says that God no respecter of person (Acts 10: 34, 35), is he saying God is  fair, or just?

Peter is saying that God is not like us, judging by personal appearance, wealth, connections, social status.  These mean little to nothing to God, and we are all in the same situation with God in regard to salvation, grace, faith, and all the rest of it.  You might by interested in a book titled I Will Be With You Always, which records appearances of Jesus to various people in modern times.  He appeared to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc, but the people consistently reported that He did not upbraid anyone, but they did feel a great outpouring of Love. 

I think God is both just (and in the end) fair.
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline TheAuthenticFan

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But Evil People MUST NOT get off Scott Free
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2012, 07:32:13 PM »
    The evil  Anti-Semites, if they do not get Punished(Face the Wrath of God) in this Life,
they must be Punished in the Afterlife, they must NOT get off Scott-Free, they must be Punished,
Jews did NOT choose to be Jewish, they don't like it either,
Even Hitler and the Nazis when they were Killing the 6 million Jews, they Realized the Jews DID NOT like, even hated being Jewish, even before  Hitler came to Power in 1933,  Did Hitler get off Scott Free when he died :declare:
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Offline sheila

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2012, 07:50:35 PM »
IF...you do NOT FORGIVE those who tresspass against you.... YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE

  YOUR SINS.......you...are in a very precarious position....... the eye is the lamp of the body..if your eyes

  are good your whole body will be full of light.But IF your eyes are bad your whole body will be

   Full of Darkness.  If then, the light that is in you..is darkness..how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2012, 09:11:15 PM »
Quote from: sheila on December 12, 2012, 07:50:35 PM
IF...you do NOT FORGIVE those who tresspass against you.... YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE

  YOUR SINS.......you...are in a very precarious position....... the eye is the lamp of the body..if your eyes

  are good your whole body will be full of light.But IF your eyes are bad your whole body will be

   Full of Darkness.  If then, the light that is in you..is darkness..how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS

 :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
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Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: But Evil People MUST NOT get off Scott Free
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2012, 10:42:52 PM »
Quote from: TheAuthenticFan on December 12, 2012, 07:32:13 PM
    The evil  Anti-Semites, if they do not get Punished(Face the Wrath of God) in this Life,
they must be Punished in the Afterlife, they must NOT get off Scott-Free, they must be Punished,
Jews did NOT choose to be Jewish, they don't like it either,
Even Hitler and the Nazis when they were Killing the 6 million Jews, they Realized the Jews DID NOT like, even hated being Jewish, even before  Hitler came to Power in 1933,  Did Hitler get off Scott Free when he died :declare:

Why do you hold onto this offense?  If you expect to be in God's good graces, you must let go and forgive.  Anyway, most of those on both of sides of the Nazi vs Jew equation have passed away.  Consider what is going on today, what the once-persecuted Jews are doing to the Palestinians.  Ask yourself if that indicates persecution is just a "Jew" thing or if it is a more universal "human" thing.  A lot of ethnic groups have suffered just as much as the Jews (the Armenians come to mind), and many have been persecuted to the extent that they were entirely exterminated (as the Rugians) and almost forgotten by history.

Follow the example of the Irish, who were persecuted cruelly by the English for 800 long years, yet, having gained their freedom at last, most of them have put aside their hatred.  You should too.

Remember, God claims vengeance as His, so it's not yours.  It's not good for you... 
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Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2012, 02:17:50 AM »
TAF - 2 clear up a couple of things. NOBODY gets off scot free. We are accountable.
I grew up in a jewish neighborhood and have known many, many jews. YOU are the only one I ever heard of that "hated" being Jewish. Do you think Jesus hated being Jewish or was ashamed of it? Are they the "chosen of God" because he hates them. Get a life and quit reading anti semitic stuff. :2c:
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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"
No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.
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