What about the 6 Million ? In the Holocaust

[TheAuthenticFan]

   What about the  6 Million Jews- Killed by Hitler and the Nazis during the Holocaust of
World War II, None accepted Christ, how will they be Saved,  I want them to be Saved

   The Bible says "All Israel shall be Saved" but that by Itself, does NOT proove
every single Jewish person, Past,Present,Future, shall be Saved Ulitmately,
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you  Reconcile that

[TheAuthenticFan]

   God must punish them,   Anti-Semites like  David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites,   when they pass away, God  must Punish them

[legoman]

   God must punish them,   Anti-Semites like  David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites,   when they pass away, God  must Punish them

Questions:
1. why must God punish them?
2. what type of punishment are you talking about?
3. what about you or I - must God punish us too?

Perhaps God does punish them (and us), but just not in the way you or I would imagine.

[rjohnson741]

   What about the  6 Million Jews- Killed by Hitler and the Nazis during the Holocaust of
World War II, None accepted Christ, how will they be Saved,  I want them to be Saved

   The Bible says "All Israel shall be Saved" but that by Itself, does NOT proove
every single Jewish person, Past,Present,Future, shall be Saved Ulitmately,
Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you  Reconcile that

Many people think the lake of fire is the end for unbelievers. The last great event for all mankind happens after time or the eons end. That event is The Consummation.

[legoman]

Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you  Reconcile that

What is the verse that says this?

Thanks...

[rjohnson741]

   God must punish them,   Anti-Semites like  David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites,   when they pass away, God  must Punish them

Of course God must punish them in the lake of fire. How else could God's love reach them?

[eaglesway]

Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you  Reconcile that

What is the verse that says this?

Thanks...

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(Rom 9:27-28)

This is the verse he is referring to.

But you have to keep reading  :o)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
(Rom 11:26-36)

[legoman]

Elsewhere in Romans, Paul says "There are Many Israelities, but only a Handful shall be Saved" how do you  Reconcile that

What is the verse that says this?

Thanks...

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(Rom 9:27-28)

This is the verse he is referring to.

But you have to keep reading  :o)

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
(Rom 11:26-36)

Ok thanks.

Yes, Romans 9 is not the completion... you are right you have to read on to Romans 11 where ultimately we see God binds all over to disobedience so He can have mercy on all, and all are then for God's glory.

[Lazarus Short]

First of all, you need to realise and accept this unavoidable fact:  all those Jews (and other people the Nazi's didn't like), the Germans who oppressed them, the German civilians who died in the Dresden firebombings, all the millions Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot [and on and on] killed - all are mortal, and most of them died in their sins. They were fated to die anyway, one way or another...

Second, those who died unjustly in their sins, those who died unjustly in righteousness, those who died peacefully in their sleep - are all in the same boat.  They all face judgment, reward and/or punishment, and take their place eventually in the Kingdom.  Their manner of death is a minor matter. 

Third, here at Tentmaker [and elsewhere] we rejoice because we KNOW that the blood of Jesus can and does cover all [ALL!] the sins of these many millions/billions.  You, me, everyone.

In the end, all former enemies (in the here-and-now) will be reconciled to each other just as they will be reconciled to God.  The first-century Greeks and Jews are an excellent example of this.



 

[Lazarus Short]

double post, my bad

[reFORMer]

Those who believe in eternal torment believe that the Jews killed by Hitler go to the same never ending hell that Hitler goes to.  The way the teaching goes is because they didn't believe in Jesus in their lifetimes they will suffer ceaseless torture for ever.  None of this is anywhere stated in the Bible; but, that doesn't seem to have much effect on their continuing to require "hellish" belief with a vengeance from those they'll accept as "Christian."

[eaglesway]

Those who believe in eternal torment believe that the Jews killed by Hitler go to the same never ending hell that Hitler goes to.  The way the teaching goes is because they didn't believe in Jesus in their lifetimes they will suffer ceaseless torture for ever.  None of this is anywhere stated in the Bible; but, that doesn't seem to have much effect on their continuing to require "hellish" belief with a vengeance from those they'll accept as "Christian."

Unbelievable- but true. Deceived at such a fundamental level about the nature of God, it makes you wonder if they know Him at all.

[VineBranch]

   God must punish them,   Anti-Semites like  David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites,   when they pass away, God  must Punish them

I am having similar questions about the end result of cruelty.  The Nazi's were not just engaging in genocide, there were a lot of people who actually liked what they were doing to their victims.   A lot of the Nazi high command used their station to indulge in sadistic brutality.  Some delighted in making other people live in horror.  How could a just god not send those evil, demonic bullies to a just endless torture filled with the same horrors they inflicted on others.  How could I possibly believe in a god who would be so indifferent to evil as to allow that much pain and yet not punish those responsible?

I am kinda glomming onto this:  the need to see them punished, is mine.  I have a need for vengeance against those who would inflict pain and suffering on others.  My mind cries out for justice, and if I could I would inflict as much pain and suffering on them as I could.  My soul yells to the heavens:  "God, punish the guilty for eternity!!!"

And my souls hears from Heaven:  "Son, please, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Then I am forced to look at my life, and am forced to ask myself a question:  "Is there anyone out there who has cause to ask God, that I spend the rest of eternity being punished with pain and torment for what I have done to them"?

Is there anyone out there of whom God asks:  "Please forgive him, for he knows not what he does"?

[ded2daworld]

Some ET'ers believe since Paul said "All Israel will be saved" that Jews are exempt from trusting in Christ and thus the prison victims do not meet the same fate as the prison victimizers. Do rationalize in their minds the seeming irony they have literally created an alternative to "NO ONE comes to the Father but by me.

The only way to get around the paradox is to admit that there is a chance after death to come to Christ.
My ET wife says, "But that wouldn't be fair!" I replied, "was it "fair" that God saves anyone. Nothing is fair, thank God for his tender mercies to us all."

[ded2daworld]

Great post VB,  :thumbsup:it came the second before I posted my response.

[goodreport]

   God must punish them,   Anti-Semites like  David Duke, Louis Farrakkhan,
Yasir Arafat, Female Anti-Semites,   when they pass away, God  must Punish them

I am having similar questions about the end result of cruelty.  The Nazi's were not just engaging in genocide, there were a lot of people who actually liked what they were doing to their victims.   A lot of the Nazi high command used their station to indulge in sadistic brutality.  Some delighted in making other people live in horror.  How could a just god not send those evil, demonic bullies to a just endless torture filled with the same horrors they inflicted on others.  How could I possibly believe in a god who would be so indifferent to evil as to allow that much pain and yet not punish those responsible?

I am kinda glomming onto this:  the need to see them punished, is mine.  I have a need for vengeance against those who would inflict pain and suffering on others.  My mind cries out for justice, and if I could I would inflict as much pain and suffering on them as I could.  My soul yells to the heavens:  "God, punish the guilty for eternity!!!"

And my souls hears from Heaven:  "Son, please, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Then I am forced to look at my life, and am forced to ask myself a question:  "Is there anyone out there who has cause to ask God, that I spend the rest of eternity being punished with pain and torment for what I have done to them"?

Is there anyone out there of whom God asks:  "Please forgive him, for he knows not what he does"?

Luke 23:34 Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

FORGIVE THEM, O MY FATHER (Alexander, 1875)

"Forgive them, O my Father,
They know not what they do."
The Savior spoke in anguish,
As sharp iron nails went through,
No word of anger spoke He
To them that shed His blood,
But prayer and tenderest pity
Large as the LOVE OF GOD.

For me was that compassion,
For me that tender care;
I need His wide forgiveness
As much as any there.
It was my pride and hardness
That hung Him on the tree;
Those cruel nails, O Savior,
Were driven in by me.

And often I have slighted
Thy gentle voice that said:
Forgive me too, Lord Jesus,
I knew not what I did.
O depth of sweet compassion!
O love divine and true!
Save Thou the many that slight Thee,
And know not what they do.

Vinebranch... thanks for adding a new and very meaningful word to  my vocabulary.  I have a rather large (not enormous, nor extensive, but large) reading vocabulary; but in all my reading, I never saw the word "glomming"... so of course I went to my trusty dictionary and learned the  meaning of glom:  beginning to understand; beginning to realize ... and decided it's perfect for
describing just how much joy I have being a forgiven sinner and yet really just beginning to understand, to realize the full impact of how that forgiveness was bought... 

[sheila]

...hopefully..we all go on from glomming..to glimmering to gleaming[appear to be revealed suddenly]]

[Lazarus Short]

My ET wife says, "But that wouldn't be fair!" I replied, "was it "fair" that God saves anyone. Nothing is fair, thank God for his tender mercies to us all."

Bill Gothard pointed out that fairness is the unexpected enemy of justice.

[VineBranch]

Bill Gothard pointed out that fairness is the unexpected enemy of justice.

I should think fairness is the ally of justice and the enemy of mercy.

[Lazarus Short]

Bill Gothard pointed out that fairness is the unexpected enemy of justice.

I should think fairness is the ally of justice and the enemy of mercy.

That's why it's unexpected, for too often what is just is not fair, and what it fair is not just.

[eaglesway]

Just fair or fairly just or sorta right maybe?

[VineBranch]

That's why it's unexpected, for too often what is just is not fair, and what it fair is not just.

How can what is fair not be just?  One of the first definitions in The World English dictionary of fair is "free from discrimination, dishonesty, etc; just; impartial ".  When I looked up related words on Dictionary.com I found: " Related Words for : fair: clean, fairly, carnival, funfair, just".  Sorry about the punctuation I needed to keep the original sentence intact to make the point.

[reFORMer]

I never knew the definition of "glom" before.  The few times I've heard it, or used it, I thought it was something that "glop" did when it was thrown onto something.  It didn't exactly adhere.  It would drip and slide down.  Like when you can't get your brother off your back.  Push him away and he keeps coming back.  He's "glomming onto you."  I wonder what word would replace my misguided idea...

[ded2daworld]

Fair is justice. That's why we need God's mercy and lovingkindness, and grace.
What is NOT fair, is that we have no idea what is fair from our limited perspective.
If you had seen Adolf Schicklegruber as a young, jewish, Billboard paperer, laughing and patriotic and coming out of a very troubled childhood, would you think it fair for someone to kill him?
How about if you knew he would become Adolph Hitler?(which he did)

[VineBranch]

If you had seen Adolf Schicklegruber as a young, jewish, Billboard paperer, laughing and patriotic and coming out of a very troubled childhood, would you think it fair for someone to kill him?
How about if you knew he would become Adolph Hitler?(which he did)

Hey ded, how's it going?  That's actually a misconception.  Adolph Hitler was never Adolph Schicklegruber.  His father changed his last name in 1877; Adolph wasn't born until 1889.  Hitler was the only he name he ever used.  It doesn't change the theme of your post (which is valid), I thought you might want to know this.

Blessings