Author Topic: What about Satan and his minions?  (Read 3306 times)

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cityonahill

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What about Satan and his minions?
« on: April 03, 2009, 01:07:17 AM »
One of the only things that I have trouble with regarding universalism is the problem of evil :BangHead:

Ok, what about the demons who "believe and tremble?"(James 2:19) will they be reconciled back to God? And will Satan be one of those who will confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord"?

A huge problem I have is that if Satan was created purely for the purpose of tormenting and deceiving humans then isn't the God who created Satan really the source of all evil? If Satan has no will and is basically a puppet of evil deeds, then how does that fit with a universal reconciliation of God's creation?

As it relates to the human race, I like universalism and it reconciles many questions I have...but I can't seem to reconcile the problem of evil.

IceDash

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 01:29:19 AM »
Yeah but you should learn a thing from me, God did create evil, he said it plainly in the bible "I create light and darkness, I create good and evil"

Who put tree of knowlegde of good and evil?
Who told Eve not to eat the fruit but didn't warn about the snake?
Who made sin and it isn't us!
Who made people harden their's heart and made them stubborn so they can't understand the mose of law?
Who choose abel over cain when they gave offer to God?
Who is the not the respecter of person?



We all know who did this, God, no doubt did all that and why? Because he know what he doing and some people and maybe satan hate the idea of not having free wills, oppose God because God is the one in control, because without God, everything is gone, there no control, there no life or death, no weather or space weather, there no happy or anger, either sad or other.

Good example of this: If the creator of peanut, Charlie died before he ever made the newspaper, his cartoon also died ith him, so this is the biggest answer: If God dead, everything he made became "poof"

cityonahill

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 01:42:51 AM »
So does God have a split personality...??

I mean, in one sense He did create both light and dark, but in Him there is no darkness right? So then we have a contradiction of sorts...That God is incapable of doing evil yet He is the very source of evil...

Still confused...Your theory is nice that God is infact the source of evil...My question is why? If He really wants to reconcile all of creation, then why does he create some to be evil puppets doomed for torment? Why the detour of sin and death? Of course we have the blame game...Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake...but infact, it was God who cursed humanity...since His ultimate goal is universal reconciliation, then was all that really needed?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 01:47:15 AM by cityonahill »

IceDash

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 01:52:43 AM »
Let me give you a good example why God did this whole things:




Image you created a daughter, and she have no feeling and knowledge, like a robot, do you like everytime you play piano and you ask her, "how do you like it?" and she always answer "yes" to everything you ever did?

That how God feel, God want our opinon, worhip him or not, love him or not, believe or not

Remember God love you and he know what you going to type next, but remember God want you be yourself, this is why God create abel and cain to be differant, and yet God didn't kill Cain because he knew that respecter of person isn't going to work for God

God want everyone to be differant

Jerm

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 02:10:57 AM »
So does God have a split personality...??

I mean, in one sense He did create both light and dark, but in Him there is no darkness right? So then we have a contradiction of sorts...That God is incapable of doing evil yet He is the very source of evil...

Still confused...Your theory is nice that God is infact the source of evil...My question is why? If He really wants to reconcile all of creation, then why does he create some to be evil puppets doomed for torment? Why the detour of sin and death? Of course we have the blame game...Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake...but infact, it was God who cursed humanity...since His ultimate goal is universal reconciliation, then was all that really needed?

Have you ever heard the phrase "The best view of Heaven is from Hell?"  I think that there is much more truth in this statment than most people realize.  I believe that we can not truly appreciate love unless we know hate and we can not truly know good unless we know evil.  Paul says in Romans 11:32 that God has shut all in disobedience so that He can have mercy on all.  Earlier, in Romans 8, Paul says the God Himself subjected all of creation to futility so that He could one day free it into glory.  So bascially, God has subject all of creation to it's horrible condition so that He can one day reconcile it back to Himself.  But why the merry-go-round?  Why not just create everything in a state of perfection from the get go?  Like I said, I believe it is so we can truly appreciate what is one day in store for us.  I believe that it will be so amazing that everything we go through here and now will not even matter. 

Offline Doc

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 02:23:17 AM »
So does God have a split personality...??

I mean, in one sense He did create both light and dark, but in Him there is no darkness right? So then we have a contradiction of sorts...That God is incapable of doing evil yet He is the very source of evil...

Still confused...Your theory is nice that God is infact the source of evil...My question is why? If He really wants to reconcile all of creation, then why does he create some to be evil puppets doomed for torment? Why the detour of sin and death? Of course we have the blame game...Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake...but infact, it was God who cursed humanity...since His ultimate goal is universal reconciliation, then was all that really needed?

I see the way that God creates evil in the same way that sunlight creates shadow. If there was no sun, there would be no shadow. You can't have darkness without the light, nor can you know what light is without the darkness. Evil is a "side effect" of the light. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. The same is true of the sun, yet its presence causes objects blocking its light to cast shadows.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Jerm

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 02:30:23 AM »
So does God have a split personality...??

I mean, in one sense He did create both light and dark, but in Him there is no darkness right? So then we have a contradiction of sorts...That God is incapable of doing evil yet He is the very source of evil...

Still confused...Your theory is nice that God is infact the source of evil...My question is why? If He really wants to reconcile all of creation, then why does he create some to be evil puppets doomed for torment? Why the detour of sin and death? Of course we have the blame game...Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake...but infact, it was God who cursed humanity...since His ultimate goal is universal reconciliation, then was all that really needed?

I see the way that God creates evil in the same way that sunlight creates shadow. If there was no sun, there would be no shadow. You can't have darkness without the light, nor can you know what light is without the darkness. Evil is a "side effect" of the light. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. The same is true of the sun, yet its presence causes objects blocking its light to cast shadows.

Great example Doc.  I think another cool one is hot and cold.  Technically, there is no such thing as cold.  There is only heat and cold is a word to describe a lack of heat.  Huh, science class actually paid off!

Offline sparrow

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 02:45:47 AM »
Let me give you a good example why God did this whole things:




Image you created a daughter, and she have no feeling and knowledge, like a robot, do you like everytime you play piano and you ask her, "how do you like it?" and she always answer "yes" to everything you ever did?

That how God feel, God want our opinon, worhip him or not, love him or not, believe or not

Remember God love you and he know what you going to type next, but remember God want you be yourself, this is why God create abel and cain to be differant, and yet God didn't kill Cain because he knew that respecter of person isn't going to work for God

God want everyone to be differant

 :thumbsup: I like your post, IceDash.

 :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 02:46:29 AM »
So does God have a split personality...??

I mean, in one sense He did create both light and dark, but in Him there is no darkness right? So then we have a contradiction of sorts...That God is incapable of doing evil yet He is the very source of evil...

Still confused...Your theory is nice that God is infact the source of evil...My question is why? If He really wants to reconcile all of creation, then why does he create some to be evil puppets doomed for torment? Why the detour of sin and death? Of course we have the blame game...Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake...but infact, it was God who cursed humanity...since His ultimate goal is universal reconciliation, then was all that really needed?

Have you ever heard the phrase "The best view of Heaven is from Hell?"  I think that there is much more truth in this statment than most people realize.  I believe that we can not truly appreciate love unless we know hate and we can not truly know good unless we know evil.  Paul says in Romans 11:32 that God has shut all in disobedience so that He can have mercy on all.  Earlier, in Romans 8, Paul says the God Himself subjected all of creation to futility so that He could one day free it into glory.  So bascially, God has subject all of creation to it's horrible condition so that He can one day reconcile it back to Himself.  But why the merry-go-round?  Why not just create everything in a state of perfection from the get go?  Like I said, I believe it is so we can truly appreciate what is one day in store for us.  I believe that it will be so amazing that everything we go through here and now will not even matter

Let me shout from the mountaintops...
YES.
YES.
YES.

 :thumbsup:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline fire walker

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 02:47:11 AM »
Though we do not see it in this physical world with our physial eyes
the Lion shall lay down beside the Lamb.

We know who the Lamb is in the scriptures
the Lamb slayen from the foundation of the World.

 in what has been given to me to see this is that God made Satan for a purpose
Satan is faithful to carry out what God has
put him in creation to do,
 He is pointed out in Scripture to be:
The waster, the sifter, the smith, the serpent, the dragon and some other things as well, he is also pointed out to be as a roaring  Lion, he can transform into an angel of light, which this may be what he did in the Garden regarding the tree OKOGAE, God did not intervene  and tell Eve that Satan was a liar and a murderer
from the begining, how would Eve know what those things meant even if God had intervened? It appears as Gods plan all along, from my pov. Satan is a spirit so is Satan reconciled?  The answer to me would it seems depend weather Satan is a being or a shadow, because in scripture it reveals God created all of creation, yet in scripture it also says God formed the crooked serpent  by his hands at arms length.
 This leads me to say that Gods plan for mankind is the reconciliation of all things
Now weather there is a reconciling of Satan and the evil spirits would to me depend on weather Satan is a being or a shadow and if God has a plan for the angelic realm of creation which I believe he does,  is a question I leave to God to answer when it is revealed.

Peace
Fire Walker

  
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 03:33:47 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline jabcat

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 02:58:00 AM »
Have you ever heard the phrase "The best view of Heaven is from Hell?"  I think that there is much more truth in this statment than most people realize.  I believe that we can not truly appreciate love unless we know hate and we can not truly know good unless we know evil.  Paul says in Romans 11:32 that God has shut all in disobedience so that He can have mercy on all.  Earlier, in Romans 8, Paul says the God Himself subjected all of creation to futility so that He could one day free it into glory.  So bascially, God has subject all of creation to it's horrible condition so that He can one day reconcile it back to Himself.  But why the merry-go-round?  Why not just create everything in a state of perfection from the get go?  Like I said, I believe it is so we can truly appreciate what is one day in store for us.  I believe that it will be so amazing that everything we go through here and now will not even matter. 

 :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

IceDash

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 03:27:29 AM »
It also ture that God know that everything he made is good and said to himself "everything is good, but......I want someone's else opinon"

Of course there lie within aproblem, he knew what their's opinon going to be, I can't iamge how it feel like to be God, knowing everything and no suprise!

For example, you mom going to buy a present for your birthday, and you knew what she is buying and what it feel like using that present in the future....how did God handle this "knowing everything!"

If God know we love him or not, why he demand worship so bad if he knew we won't do it?

if God know we going to sins or not, why God hate the sins so much if he knew it going to be solved anyway?

If God knew he going to die on the cross to die for us, why he didn't just die on the cross after adam, oh yeah there only 2 people on the planet, excuse me.....

If God KNEW EVERYTHING, that's mean nothing suprise him!

I love God so much but I wish he doesn't know for just one day so we can suprise him, but there a problem, I know that God going to said thsi:

"If I forget what going on for just one day, who going to watch out for the black hole? Who going to answer 5 billion prayers in a just second? Who watching the weather in all the planets? Who going to pronounced dead? Who going to die? Who get to live? Who going to open the bird'e eye? Who going to deliver the baby? Who going to cause earthqauke? Who gong to pop a supernova star? Who watching flowers, not on just earth but the whole universe? Who will guide the groundhog? Who will water the ground for the tree? Who going to burn the forest for blanace nature? Who will do all this for just one each day, who?!"


I will answer this to God: "ummmm........"

Offline sparrow

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 04:30:26 AM »
I love God so much but I wish he doesn't know for just one day so we can suprise him,...

I loved your post, IceDash..
but I especially loved that.

What a beautiful sentiment.
love it!!

Wow. I hope this makes sense, but I wish I could have seen God's face when he read what you just wrote. I'm sure it would have been just...a beautiful sight. :icon_flower:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:32:04 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

IceDash

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 04:39:24 AM »
I love God so much but I wish he doesn't know for just one day so we can suprise him,...

I loved your post, IceDash..
but I especially loved that.

What a beautiful sentiment.
love it!!

Wow. I hope this makes sense, but I wish I could have seen God's face when he read what you just wrote. I'm sure it would have been just...a beautiful sight. :icon_flower:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:
I know, his face always shine...

Offline sparrow

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 05:23:06 AM »
 :gimmefive:

 :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 06:06:57 AM »
One of the only things that I have trouble with regarding universalism is the problem of evil :BangHead:

Ok, what about the demons who "believe and tremble?"(James 2:19) will they be reconciled back to God? And will Satan be one of those who will confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord"?

A huge problem I have is that if Satan was created purely for the purpose of tormenting and deceiving humans then isn't the God who created Satan really the source of all evil? If Satan has no will and is basically a puppet of evil deeds, then how does that fit with a universal reconciliation of God's creation?

As it relates to the human race, I like universalism and it reconciles many questions I have...but I can't seem to reconcile the problem of evil.

Great questions.  Let me see if I can help.  I have a different opinion than others about who Satan is and what Demons are.  I believe Satan is a reference to the disobedient nature of man.  Consider the Garden of Eden.  The Serpent that is talking to Eve, I believe is Adam but more specifically the exhibition of that disobedient nature of Adam.  Demons are components or messengers of that disobedient nature as well.

So having said that, my belief is that Satan and Demons will be annhilated.  In other words, that evil nature will be utterly destroyed and cease to exists forevermore when the time comes.

Paul

Offline peacemaker

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 06:41:59 AM »
I have a different opinion than others about who Satan is and what Demons are ...In other words, that evil nature will be utterly destroyed and cease to exists ...when the time comes.

 :dsunny: "Only when one sees the light!"

peacemaker

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 06:42:51 AM »
I love God so much but I wish he doesn't know for just one day so we can suprise him,...

I loved your post, IceDash..
but I especially loved that.

What a beautiful sentiment.
love it!!

Wow. I hope this makes sense, but I wish I could have seen God's face when he read what you just wrote. I'm sure it would have been just...a beautiful sight. :icon_flower:  :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: Me too..... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2009, 06:48:02 AM »
 :cloud9: I think the simplest explanation is that everything came out of God and everything returns to God. God is a consuming fire, consuming everything that is not like Him. I don't think that means to it's destruction in the sense that it no longer exists, but to it's nature change being changed like unto His glorious nature. Satan becomes a footstool, ie. nature change, once the adversarial (to us) nature is overcome. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Pierac

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2009, 06:57:05 AM »
Start here, the article is to long to post but too good to pass up... :thumbsup:


http://www.gtft.org/Library/adams/027ThePurposeOfEvil.htm


Peace in your search,
Paul

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2009, 08:59:41 AM »
So does God have a split personality...??

I mean, in one sense He did create both light and dark, but in Him there is no darkness right? So then we have a contradiction of sorts...That God is incapable of doing evil yet He is the very source of evil...

Still confused...Your theory is nice that God is infact the source of evil...My question is why? If He really wants to reconcile all of creation, then why does he create some to be evil puppets doomed for torment? Why the detour of sin and death? Of course we have the blame game...Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake...but infact, it was God who cursed humanity...since His ultimate goal is universal reconciliation, then was all that really needed?

I see the way that God creates evil in the same way that sunlight creates shadow. If there was no sun, there would be no shadow. You can't have darkness without the light, nor can you know what light is without the darkness. Evil is a "side effect" of the light. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. The same is true of the sun, yet its presence causes objects blocking its light to cast shadows.
Many verses state God creates/manages evil/calamity. But also darkness (=evil) is the absense of light (=God)
Darkness can't be expossed without light. So, Doc, perhaps the shadow in your example is just that. Darkness exposed.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil was needed to see evil. So evil isn't (always) that obvious. :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2009, 07:15:55 PM »
Hi cityonahill,

Read some articles about the purpose of evil.  If you really study it and read the scriptures, you will realize God intended it all, and he's gonna reconcile it all in the end.  That even includes Satan & his minions!  Read the bible & believe it:

2 Cor 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1 Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.


Ray Smith has some good articles about the purpose of the lake of fire/evil/everything here:

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
.... this is a many part series (up to part 16E so far) - read them all!

Legoman

Offline legoman

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2009, 07:21:53 PM »
So does God have a split personality...??

No God does not have a split personality  :Sparkletooth:

He hates evil, yet He created it. (Isaiah 45:7)

He is giving us an experience of evil so we will be humbled, and so we will be able to learn how to be good.

Ecc 1:13 (concordant) It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

That one verse says a lot about God's plan.  Here is another verse that says a lot about God's plan:

Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Be well, and enjoy the ride!
Legoman

pneuma

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2009, 09:23:04 PM »
One of the only things that I have trouble with regarding universalism is the problem of evil :BangHead:

Ok, what about the demons who "believe and tremble?"(James 2:19) will they be reconciled back to God? And will Satan be one of those who will confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord"?

A huge problem I have is that if Satan was created purely for the purpose of tormenting and deceiving humans then isn't the God who created Satan really the source of all evil? If Satan has no will and is basically a puppet of evil deeds, then how does that fit with a universal reconciliation of God's creation?

As it relates to the human race, I like universalism and it reconciles many questions I have...but I can't seem to reconcile the problem of evil.

City, for a different perspective read the potter and His clay thread.

Offline sheila

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Re: What about Satan and his minions?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2009, 09:25:30 PM »
ID

   YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL SURPRISE AWAITING YOU!!

   Father does this so often, anything that comes up out of

  heart for Him.[spontaneous].he does for us.

   ex; David wanted to build the temple for the Lord..the Lord

  built David a house. He is very tender in affection,our Father.

    Bless you,ID

                                Sheila