Author Topic: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?  (Read 1364 times)

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avoiceuphere

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Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« on: June 19, 2011, 01:29:18 AM »
My wife is beginning to ask questions...This is great.

I am a little stumped about this. No it does in no way provide a stumbling block to what God has shown me. I just want to be able to explain correctly. It is on the topic of Gehenna.

Luk 12:4 Now I am saying to you, My friends, be not afraid of those who are killing the body and after this do not have anything more excessive that they can do."
Luk 12:5 Now I shall be intimating to you of Whom you may be afraid: Be afraid of Him Who, after killing, has authority to be casting into Gehenna. Yea, I am saying to you, of this One be afraid


My wife stated, and I understand her thought pattern. Why does Jesus warn not to be afraid of those killing the body alone and cannot do anything more excessive. Does this not imply that whoever is doing the casting into Gehenna and has authority is doing something beyond the death of the body? Jesus does say to be afraid of this one. I notice my translations have Him and the One capitalized which appears to be the Lord.

What am I missing here? I don't think I have a complete understanding, I have been asking the Lord to explain this to me so I can in turn explain to her and my children. I just had the thought to email you since most of my questions the Lord has permitted me to track and search them out with satisfaction in scripture and concordances.

Best,

-Jeremy

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2011, 04:29:33 AM »
After bodily death, Jesus, in several places describes being punished in fire, Gehenna fire, aionian flames, etc. This is further described in 1 Cor 3:15

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.Know ye not that you are the temple of God and the Holy Spirit dwells in you?
(1Co 3:12-16)

Here at least, the fire purges and the person emerges, "saved" (which is sozo, grk- delivered, healed, saved)

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (1Co 5:4-6)

Here again, the destruction "saves"(delivers)


Notice the "know ye not?" at the end of both portions- serious warnings to BELIEVERS.

Jesus says EVERYONE will be salted with fire (Mt 9:49)"For everyone(all beings) shall be salted with fire, & every sacrifice(all believers) shall be salted with salt".KJV That's the way I read that parable- it is my opinion. That whole portion In Mt 9 39-49 is telling BELIEVERS that they can find themselves experiencing Gehenna fire- Yet nowhere does it say it lasts forever. The unquenchable nature of the fire is related to the "unquenchable fire" with which Jesus will "thoroughly purge His threshing floor", He burns the chaff until it is consumed and only wheat remains, which He gathers. Not many of us are being gathered because so much chaff remains upon the threshing floor of our lives- and that is why we see so much fire :o)

Here again, the person is delivered for the "destruction of the flesh"- that the spirit may be saved "in the day of the Lord Jesus".

This, one may accept, is the same day that reveals the substance of our works in 1 Cor 3:15- it is a day that is dawned in believers and will swallow all the darkness in the world eventually, for the "light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it" Jn 1

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
(Rom 2:14-16)

Jesus declares that many "believers/Christians" will be cast into this fire- "Lord Lord did we not do many works in your name and prophesy in your name?....etc,etc.

These are categorized within 1 Cor 3 13-15, in my opinion, and it is only our previous teaching and resulting doctrinal prejudice that causes us to think these people burn "forever".

Remember, "His eyes are as flames of fire" and a "two edged sword comes out of His mouth"(Revelations)  and "the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword dividing asunder bone and marrow, flesh and spirit, and all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" (Hebrews)

"Every sacrifice will be salted with fire"(Jesus)

The light is fire to darkness, and as Jesus said, "There is nothing hidden in darkness that will not be brought to light". Paul said, in Ephesisans I think, "Every thing that is brought to the light becomes light".

In my opinion( and some would disagree) the lake of fire and Gehenna are referring to the same thing- it is the experience of the light of God that burns through any darkness that has not been brought under the blood of Jesus by confession and repentance until every goat yields and every tare is consumed-until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord- to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2)

For some it is already accomplished in this life(the overcomers and the broken and contrite of heart), For some there will be more work to do in the age to come, when the Day of the Lord reaches the full noon(in my opinion, upon His return at the end of this age, and at the Great White Throne)

In Rev 5:13 we see Phillipians 2:10 fulfilled, again, in my opinion, at the end of the ages, the conclusion of the dispensation of the fulness(completion) of times(Eph 1:9-11)

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(Rev 5:12-13)

In 1 Cor 15 :23-28 we are told that after every enemy is "subjected", Jesus will return "all things" to the Father, that God may be ALL IN ALL". It does not say that they(the adversaries) will burn forever.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)

Oh My God Praise Be To You For Your Glorious Plan, Your Kind Intention, The Mystery Of Your Will, The Restoration Of All Things!



« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 04:53:24 AM by eaglesway »
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avoiceuphere

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 03:30:06 AM »
Very awesome. Thank you. I keep forgetting the fire saves! I understand this about "The Lake of Fire." Some will go through and not be hurt and Paul being saved "yet through fire." So no matter what it is better to have Jesus destroy your flesh now then to be cast into the fire to come. All makes sense thank you very much.

Last question. When He mentions Gehenna to the Hebrews they understand the place He refers to. I realize Paul never mentions this to gentiles since they would not understand this foreign place. I was understanding (could be very wrong here) that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish church leaders and they were thrown into Gehenna when Rome encircled Jerusalem in 70 AD. I read the War of The Jews and it was brutal.

Again bear with me as I am learning to untangle all these lies traditions have taught me. If I am not misdirected and Jesus said this to the religious rulers and they were thrown into Gehenna by the Romans in 70 AD why would the scripture mention fear not the one who can kill the body but after cast you into Gehenna fire. Goes back to fire doesn't it! Hmmm I think I am answering my own question. No matter if this Gehenna fire was a warning about entering Gods cleansing fire it is still better to fall on the Rock and be broken here and more importantly experience Hiis freedom and love and peace now. I sure love it!.

You have helped me out so much! Now I just need to search out if they were thrown into Gehenna by the Romans in 70 AD. I could be mistaken and am eager to learn. No matter though, Gods fire hurts, exposes but cleans and makes righteous. Much like the trials here but I think these trials here are the way to go and the love freedom and peace replaces all the pain of Him chopping off the flesh now. I love Him! Am I totally misdirected about them being physically tossed into Gehenna in 70AD?

Thank you.

-Jeremy

Offline jabcat

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 03:42:49 AM »
Jeremy, I'm one that believes MUCH! (if not all) of Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jews of that age - who were about to lose their place of privilege, be cast into outer darkness (cut off for [at least] the next 2,000 years) while us, the Gentiles were grafted in, and we were privileged with the age of grace.  He was talking to people on that side of the cross.

Josephus wrote that the Jewish religious leaders were either destroyed in the temple when it went down (they were there hiding with their gold and jewels), while many of the rest had their bodies thrown into Gehenna in disgrace.  There the fire burned continuously (unquenchable) until it had consumed/served its purpose.

All that's not to say that there aren't any spiritual applications for us, i.e., about being "in the kingdom" (righteousness, peace, joy),  being in close relationship with Him;  or, suffering the fires of the consequences of our sin, rebellion, distance from Him.  However, our God is a Consuming Fire, and He will consume all that is not of Him - until only purity remains.   :2c:

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

avoiceuphere

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 04:10:48 AM »
Thanks. : )

Lot's of searching ahead and I like it.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 04:25:27 AM »
It will be a blessed journey.  Your Father is leading :)
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Syndicated

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 05:13:47 PM »
Josephus wrote that the Jewish religious leaders were either destroyed in the temple when it went down (they were there hiding with their gold and jewels), while many of the rest had their bodies thrown into Gehenna in disgrace.  There the fire burned continuously (unquenchable) until it had consumed/served its purpose.


So if I'm understanding you correctly, this means that the 'Eternal Fire' that is referred to in Mat 18:8 is really referring to Gehenna?

What about in Mat 25:31-46 where Jesus is talking about separation between sheep and goats, where the sheep go to be with him in the kingdom that 'had been prepared since the foundation of the world' and the goats go to the 'eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'?  Isn't that Jesus telling us straight out about a firey hell for those who didn't obey Him?  Please bear with me here, I'm having a moment of confusion and a little doubt.

Online sheila

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 07:34:26 PM »
  seperating the sheep from the goats is done in Adam...sin in the flesh is the scapegoat that perishes in the wilderness[that wicked generation]man that bears the

corruptible image. the sheep is the new spiritual man shepherded by Jesus christ..into the kingdom prepared for them.. do bear the image of the incorruptible


  as gold and silver when refined by fire removes the dross...so to does the refiner/shepherd....if there is no wood the fire goes out[wooden idols

the work of man's hands/false doctrines/counterfeit images of the living God/crosses bearing sin]   all that is not of Him is destroyed,for He says, I will not give MY GLORY

 UNTO aNOTHER

   though we pass through the water and the fire we need to fear not. He will and does cleanse us from all sin...removing sin and death permanetly


.....the sinners in Zion are afraid....'WHO CAN DWELL WITH CONSTANT BURNINGS?    I tell you who can...man created in the image of God[image of firstborn

from the dead/Jesus Christ


    Jesus spoke of who should be feared and why. HE WAS JUST SENDING OUT hIS FOLLOWERS TO TESTIFY AND KNEW THE PERSECUTIONS THAT WOULD ARISE

  FROM IT, THE THREAT TO THEIR LIFE FOR THEIR TESTIMONY WAS VERY REAL,AND HE WAS SHOWING THAT GODLY FEAR WAS MORE APPROPRIATE AND TO

  THEIR ADVANTAGE. THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS HAD POWER TO KILL THEIR BODY ONLY DUE TO THEIR BEING SPIRITUALLY ALIVE TO GOD[THEIR TESTIMONY]

  IF THEY SHOULD SHRINK BACK IN FEAR,THEN  GOD WOULD NOT BE PLEASED IN THEM[FOR A SPIRIT OF FEAR IS NOT OF GOD...AND MAKES YOU SPIRITUALLY DEAD

  ONLY THE SPIRITUALY DEAD[NO LIFE IN THEM] ARE BURNED IN GEHENNA.  BETTER TO BE SPIRITUALLY ALIVE TO GOD AND FLESH DIE..THEN TO DIE SPIRITUALLY

FROM FEAR OF MAN.   THE GEHENNA FIRES CONSUME ONLY WHAT IS NO LONGER OF ANY USE/THAT WHICH IS AS GOOD AS A DEAD MAN/ REFUSE


 THIS RESULTS IN YOU BEING DENIED BY THE LORD IN FRONT OF HIS ANGELS,AND THEY WILL CEASE TO MINISTER UNTO YOU THE REMAINDER OF

YOUR TIME IN THE FLESH. HOWEVER AT THE END OF YOUR TIME IN THE FLESH,WHEN YOUR BODY DIES..THAT SPIRIT OF FEAR OF MAN THAT DWELT IN YOUR FLESH

IS SENT OFF ALONG WITH OTHER SIN IN YOUR BODY TO DIE IN THE WILDERNESS[OUTSIDE THE CITY ARE THE COWARDS]

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 08:05:24 PM »
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN."
(Heb 12:22-26)


God is shaking us into heaven :o) Listen, He is saying "Wake Up! Wake Up!

Awake O sleeper and Rise from among the dead and the Light of Christ will shine on you!
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 12:15:41 AM »
Josephus wrote that the Jewish religious leaders were either destroyed in the temple when it went down (they were there hiding with their gold and jewels), while many of the rest had their bodies thrown into Gehenna in disgrace.  There the fire burned continuously (unquenchable) until it had consumed/served its purpose.


So if I'm understanding you correctly, this means that the 'Eternal Fire' that is referred to in Mat 18:8 is really referring to Gehenna?

What about in Mat 25:31-46 where Jesus is talking about separation between sheep and goats, where the sheep go to be with him in the kingdom that 'had been prepared since the foundation of the world' and the goats go to the 'eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'?  Isn't that Jesus telling us straight out about a firey hell for those who didn't obey Him?  Please bear with me here, I'm having a moment of confusion and a little doubt.

Hi Syndicated.  I have many times of doubt.  We're clay, brother.  He knows what He's doing.  "Stand!"


Re: this, another thing to consider is, this may fall into the "spiritual/symbolic application" aspect as well.  Here's a very literal translation from the Koine Greek (Christian Bible 1991)  "...it would be ideal for you to enter into Life maimed or lame, than to have two hands and two feet and to be thrown into the Fire of the Last Age [..the Second Death, Rev. 20:14,15].    Verse 9 says "..be thrown into the Gehenna of Fire [Gehenna was Jerusalem's burning trash dump;  this is symbolic of the destroying Fire of the Second Death]"  Christian Bible

Sheila's comment is interesting about sheep and goats.  I've also heard this described as the judgment of nations, not individuals.  The timing of this is also a question - some say it's during Christ's "1,000 year 'end of the age' reign", aka, "millinium" - having to do with God "sorting things out", estabilishing His righteousness upon the earth, etc.   
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 01:37:35 AM »
Remember that His eyes are as flames of fire. Light consumes darkness. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Our God is a consuming fire. The sheep will shine in the light reflecting the glory of the divine nature of Christ while the goats(as adversaries- adversarial in nature, unrepentant) experience the light has a penetrating force, bringing every hidden thing to light, in order to destroy the chaff, wood, hay, stubble, etc. Goats go "their own way" and "eat anything". Sheep know the shepherds voice and are led by the Spirit.

As it is written, "Everyone will be salted with fire" Mt 9:49

When every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed the Lordship of Jesus, all creation will be united in the fire of god's light and love.

The sinners in Zion are afraid.....who can stand within the eternal burnings?"

[You are the One] Who covers Yourself with light as with a garment, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain or a tent,
Who lays the beams of the upper room of His abode in the waters [above the firmament], Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind,
Who makes winds His messengers, flames of fire His ministers.(Amplified)

(Psa 104:2-4)

Fire is not bad, it is good, but sometimes it feels bad- and it is intended to :o)

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Heb 12:11-12)






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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 02:47:10 AM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 07:42:07 AM »
I also believe the sheep and the goats...... the wheat and the tares, coexist within me. The chaff is on the grain in my life, which is the threshing floor of the Lord. He is winnowing the wheat with trials, harvesting that which is to be gathered out of my life(John 15 & 1 Cor 15...works that abide into eternity, vs wood hay and stubble). He is taking me through the fire, testing and purging my faith (a testing process more precious than gold tried in the fire, because it is the evidence of my sonship)- burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire. I hope he does not lay the ax to the root of the tree! Better to endure the purging and pruning!
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2011, 12:13:04 AM »
 :cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Confident UR Christian

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 08:25:59 PM »
Yes, it seems interesting that grain and chaff are referred to by John the Baptist rather than good grain anf bad grain. Since chaff is attached to the grain, it seems as though the burning up of the chaff refers to the complete annihilation of everything harmful and hateful within a person, to leave only the grain behind, and the good person. This makes some sense, because everyone has at least some good within them now, even if it is highly supressed.

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2011, 10:00:25 PM »
Yes, it seems interesting that grain and chaff are referred to by John the Baptist rather than good grain anf bad grain. Since chaff is attached to the grain
Not only that; the grain is encapsulated by the chaff. When it's ripe it break out.
Chaff=body?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 11:40:03 AM »
Yes, it seems interesting that grain and chaff are referred to by John the Baptist rather than good grain anf bad grain. Since chaff is attached to the grain
Not only that; the grain is encapsulated by the chaff. When it's ripe it break out.
Chaff=body?

chaff -body? Yea I think so but more also the flesh/carnal man, inner man vs outer man idea. Watchman Nee taught (in The Release of the Spirit) from the time we are saved God has one purpose, the breaking of the outer man so the inner man can be released. This is discipleship/sonship.The crucified life is about learning to "mortify" the flesh and "walk in the spirit". The chaff is broken off by "planting". Burial. Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it cannot bear fruit. The chaff is also broken off by "winnowing" on threshing floor. Life is the threshing floor, trials the winnowing fork, the light of God is the unquenchable fire that burns up the chaff. The seed that remains is made into the good bread that comes down from heaven.
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 11:46:08 AM »
Yes, it seems interesting that grain and chaff are referred to by John the Baptist rather than good grain anf bad grain. Since chaff is attached to the grain
Not only that; the grain is encapsulated by the chaff. When it's ripe it break out.
Chaff=body?

chaff -body? Yea I think so but more also the flesh/carnal man, inner man vs outer man idea.
If the chaff is on the outside the wheat is obviously on the inside. So yes it's about the inner and outer body/man.
Quote
When it's ripe it break out.
Born again event.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 03:00:47 PM »
Quote
The crucified life is about learning to "mortify" the flesh and "walk in the spirit". The chaff is broken off by "planting". Burial. Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it cannot bear fruit. The chaff is also broken off by "winnowing" on threshing floor. Life is the threshing floor, trials the winnowing fork, the light of God is the unquenchable fire that burns up the chaff. The seed that remains is made into the good bread that comes down from heaven

Quote
Quote
When it's ripe it breaks out
Born again event

Yes, a good deal of imagery can be considered here: there are many ways of metaphorically thinking about the grains. One way is to consider each grain developing, with chaff, a person. As part of coming closer to God through Jesus Christ, the grain becomes ripe and loses the chaff (the help of Jesus allow the development to leave behind the old); the burning of the chaff seems to happen to every person, whether the chaff is still attached or not. Simultaneously, we have the metaphor of the grain falling to the ground and growning to bear a fruit, and the metaphor of them becoming part of the bread, with a yeast that works through the whole dough, which in itself is a metaphor for the Kingdom of God, or the Body of Christ.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Gehenna, fear the One "after" they kill the body?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 07:10:13 AM »

Yes, a good deal of imagery can be considered here: there are many ways of metaphorically thinking about the grains. One way is to consider each grain developing, with chaff, a person. As part of coming closer to God through Jesus Christ, the grain becomes ripe and loses the chaff (the help of Jesus allow the development to leave behind the old); the burning of the chaff seems to happen to every person, whether the chaff is still attached or not. Simultaneously, we have the metaphor of the grain falling to the ground and growning to bear a fruit, and the metaphor of them becoming part of the bread, with a yeast that works through the whole dough, which in itself is a metaphor for the Kingdom of God, or the Body of Christ.

Yea all that and amen to it :o)
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