Author Topic: universalism in europe history  (Read 1760 times)

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Offline sven

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universalism in europe history
« on: December 02, 2008, 08:46:37 PM »
it might be interesting for somebody

als far as i know the cathars in the middle ages believed in universalism, they might be something like gnostics, they seemed also to believe in reincarnation

the Anabaptists in Luthers day believed also in universalism as far as i know, they have been persecuted by the reformators as Luther, Calvin and Zwingli (in Switzerland) as far as i know. Ive read the Anabaptists were accused of beeing mystics but this might say nothing.

There also seems to have been a reformator called Martin Bucer about 1530 who biblically rejected the idea of hell.

maybe the famoust were the Pietists since 1650

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Albrecht_Bengel

Johann Albrecht Bengel was an universalist, he also made a translation of the Bible.
Ive also read there was a german translation, called Berleburger Bibel of Pietist background who teached universalism.

Sometime the Pietists seems to be claimed as mystics too, but they were very strict christians. Ive read that they were the first german missonaries.

Since many of you here, seems to be confused by near death experiences and self claimed prophets, there was a german mystic called Jakob Lorber who made/had a new revelation, he teached there is hell but no eternal damnation, some elements in his revelation have parallels to the book of Enoch, im not sure but he might claimed that the book of Enoch is cannonical but yet he teached there is no eternal damnation, but in my eyes is revelation was occult, so all prophets in these time are too in my opinion.

maybe it was interesting for somebody, maybe there is literature about the pietists and their belief in universalism in english language.

this is a great german link, there must exist an english version of an Alexander Thomsen, i would be glad if anyone could find the english version, maybe its even more stuff.

http://das-lebendige-wort.de/Abhandlungen/wie_sich_die_ewigkeit_einschlich.htm

i found the english version:

http://tojuki.tripod.com/id24.htm
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 09:35:19 PM by sven »

Offline sven

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 06:14:06 PM »
I think it's an interesting topic, the history of universalism in Germany/Europe since the reformation, I translated it from German in excerpts:

A deciding encouragement came from the Englishwoman Jane Leade:
In an enormous vision in the year 1686 did she saw Adam and Eve sitting on thrones in the heavenly world and over the way the second Adam, Christ with the virgin Mary upon her throne; and departed souls in droves coming up to them, every time when a new crowd came, Adam and Eve stood up and bowed cheering and with great joy, that all their children came up there. Being questioned, Eve answered that all her children and descendants shall be saved from all their prisons, caves and places of darkness; and the second Adam said: "Are you amazed yet about this utter and complete salvation of all my human creatures, what will you say then, when the love of the overwhelming Godhead will be revealed even deeper and more miraculous, when it will achieve that even Lucifer's princedom will fall and even they will be restored to their former glory?" After this vision Jane Leade begun to study the Bible and found confirmed what she had seen. After this she spread the "eternal Gospel", as she called it, in many tracts and an acceptable number of people gathered around her, especially in the Netherlands and Germany, the so called "Philadelphian Community".

To the question, if the public teaching of the restitution of all things isn't dangerous, she answered that the teaching of eternal punishment in hell had very little effects, but if the power of love is properly told, this would be much more effective on the mind of the wicked and unrighteous.

To those who were influenced from the "Philadelphian Community" in Germany belonged the former Lutheran superintendent Johann Wilhelm Petersen and his wife Johanna Eleonore Petersen, they spread the message of the restitution of all things in impressive writings in broad circles. Among this writings is the Latin poem 'Uranias' from the year 1720. From the background of the Philadelphian movement comes the Berleburger Bible, which was released from 1726 1742, a Bible commentary printed in the town Berleburg, which especially tried to interpret the eschatological content of the scripture. The words of the revelation of John: "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new." are commented: "We're not allowed to exclude any creature fallen into sin and unto curse from the new-creation or final restitution cause it simply says 'all things'."

« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 06:16:30 PM by sven »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 07:05:38 PM »
To the question, if the public teaching of the restitution of all things isn't dangerous, she answered that the teaching of eternal punishment in hell had very little effects, but if the power of love is properly told, this would be much more effective on the mind of the wicked and unrighteous.

That question for me shows a lot of 'religion' is acutually politics to keep the masses under control.
What about about the verses of changing the word, lying, false teaching.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline reFORMer

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 07:44:27 PM »
Since many of you here, seems to be confused by near death experiences and self claimed prophets, there was a german mystic called Jakob Lorber . . . in my eyes is revelation was occult, so all prophets in these time are too in my opinion.
Probably for another thread, but . . .
Sven
why do you find such experiences, specially the prophetic to be wrong?  When it was complained that there were men in the camp that were prophecying, Moses said, "Would to God that all His people were prophets."  "Now I want you all to be speaking in languages, yet rather that you may be prophesying, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking in languages, outside and except he may be interpreting, that the ecclesia may be getting edification." (1 Cor 14:5, CLV)

Also, from 1 Corinthians 14 (CLV) . . .
23 If then, the whole ecclesia should be coming together in the same place . . .
24 Now if all should be prophesying, yet some unbeliever or plain person be entering, he is being exposed by all, he is being examined by all.
25 The hidden things of his heart are becoming apparent, and thus, falling on his face, he will be worshiping God, reporting that God really is among you.
31 for you can all be prophesying one by one, that all may be learning and all be consoled.

1 Corinthians 3:21-23 (CLV) . . .
21 So that, let no one be boasting in men, for all is yours,
22 whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or the present, or that which is impending -- all is yours,
23 yet you are Christ's, yet Christ is God's.

your brother, James Rohde
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 08:24:49 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline sven

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 12:02:50 AM »
what Lorber taught is very similar to what Origen believed, that's strange cause Lorber could hardly know the works of Origen, Lorber also taught that Lucifer was a good angel once and that humans once existed as angels. Some things in Lorbers "revelation" sound very much like the things in the book of Enoch.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 12:05:27 AM »
what Lorber taught is very similar to what Origen believed, that's strange cause Lorber could hardly know the works of Origen, Lorber also taught that Lucifer was a good angel once and that humans once existed as angels. Some things in Lorbers "revelation" sound very much like the things in the book of Enoch.

 :cloud9: I believe from something He showed me once, that we indeed were, and are now "fallen angels". Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sven

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 09:56:26 PM »
Quote
Sven
why do you find such experiences, specially the prophetic to be wrong?


they contradict the bible in my view and they are occult in my opinion but none the less, Johannes Greber, another German who also claimed to have a revelation said:

"To you really think you can gain more with this poor men with an atrocious untruth than with the truth of love and mercy"

 

Offline Cardinal

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 10:44:10 PM »
 :cloud9: Since everything Satan has is a counterfeit of something God has in His Spirit, what then is the reality? Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline reFORMer

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 10:56:58 PM »
Quote
Sven
why do you find such experiences, specially the prophetic to be wrong?


they contradict the bible in my view and they are occult in my opinion but none the less, Johannes Greber, another German who also claimed to have a revelation said:

"To you really think you can gain more with this poor men with an atrocious untruth than with the truth of love and mercy"

 
There are false prophets.  Jesus warned about them.  But that should only make you proceed with a little caution, not stop.  The prophetic is essential to the nature of Jesus.  Peter and John didn't say, "We cannot follow you Jesus, because of that Judas who is with you."  It should be remembered also that the whole lump was leavened.  There is something wrong with everybody.  We are told to not be many teachers, because we each offend many.  Ordinarily a man may have some error or has mis-behaved somewhat.  That is what God uses:  Dirt!

The only reason most of us think we don't have any problem following Jesus is because His flesh is not in our faces.  Well, then again, it is sort of...in our brothers and sisters in the world.  How free of offence are we?

When the Holy Spirit is in us, all that Jesus is and does is in us.  The more we mature in Him, the more available we become to all Jesus is and does.  The measure of maturity is how much of the expression of Christ we raise up in others.

"The testimony to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rv 19:10)  When we tell someone what we know to be true about God in them and their entrance into Him, we are prophecying.  The Holy Spirit can take that up and operate in us to see a vision or hear a word, to know beyond what is naturally possible, so the one to whom we are speaking can grow, draw close and be comforted. (cp., 1 Cor 14:3)

your brother, James Rohde
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 11:23:56 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 12:16:29 AM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: universalism in europe history
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 12:26:23 AM »
Quote
Sven
why do you find such experiences, specially the prophetic to be wrong?


they contradict the bible in my view and they are occult in my opinion but none the less, Johannes Greber, another German who also claimed to have a revelation said:

"To you really think you can gain more with this poor men with an atrocious untruth than with the truth of love and mercy"

 
There are false prophets.  Jesus warned about them.  But that should only make you proceed with a little caution, not stop.  The prophetic is essential to the nature of Jesus.  Peter and John didn't say, "We cannot follow you Jesus, because of that Judas who is with you."  It should be remembered also that the whole lump was leavened.  There is something wrong with everybody.  We are told to not be many teachers, because we each offend many.  Ordinarily a man may have some error or has mis-behaved somewhat.  That is what God uses:  Dirt!

The only reason most of us think we don't have any problem following Jesus is because His flesh is not in our faces.  Well, then again, it is sort of...in our brothers and sisters in the world.  How free of offence are we?

When the Holy Spirit is in us, all that Jesus is and does is in us.  The more we mature in Him, the more available we become to all Jesus is and does.  The measure of maturity is how much of the expression of Christ we raise up in others.

"The testimony to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rv 19:10)  When we tell someone what we know to be true about God in them and their entrance into Him, we are prophecying.  The Holy Spirit can take that up and operate in us to see a vision or hear a word, to know beyond what is naturally possible, so the one to whom we are speaking can grow, draw close and be comforted. (cp., 1 Cor 14:3)

your brother, James Rohde

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.