Universalism

[Truthseeker]

Thomas Talbott who wrote the inescapable love of God wrote

Thomas Talbott, a philosophy professor at Willamette University, Salem, Oregon, offers three propositions which are biblically based but cannot all be true at the same time.

1. God is omnipotent and exercises sovereign control over all aspects of human life and history

2. God is omni-benevolent, is ontologically Love, and desires the salvation of all people.

3. Some (a lot) of people will experience everlasting, conscious torment in a place of (either literal or metaphorical) fire.[12]

Traditionally, Calvinists resolved this by disagreeing with the Arminian interpretation of #2. According to the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement, God's "special" love and grace are shown in his sovereign election of some to be saved, whereas his "common" love and common grace is shown to all humanity, including the non-elect, thus maintaining the doctrine of God's omnibenevolence. Arminians resolve this by disagreeing with the Calvinist interpretation of #1 by proposing what is commonly referred to as Synergistic Regeneration, which teaches that man has a free will to either choose or reject God's love (as exhibited in salvation). Universalists disagree with #3.

I think preposition 1 and 2 have much more support than no 3

Besides the reasoning for rejecting no 1 (Armininism) or 2 (Calvinism), whilst accepting no 3 is faulty and illogical, one clearly has to accept both 1 and 2, therefore I have to reject no 3, which makes me a Christian Universalist

[shawn]

I don't choose any label other than follower of Christ.  I do not know nor do I claim to know how God works out judgment.  I do not need to figure it out because it's not mine to fully understand.  I can find support for both UR and eternal death doctrines.  I see little if any support for the doctrine of eternal torture.  That is about all I know and I'm ok with that.

[jabcat]

Plz be aware of the guidelines re: Trinity debate.  http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/what_you_may_not_do_2693.0.html

Thanks, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

God is an ever expanding family, 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. infinity and beyond.   ;)   

[Lefein]

I like this doctrine, it has sound validity in my opinion.  Something that has a "stick to your ribs" type of feel, if you could compare such things.

[jabcat]

Hi Truthseeker.  Would you plz make a second post, pull out a few main thoughts you'd like to have discussed further, while moving away from the Trinity topic?  Otherwise, if we stick to strictly the thread title, this thread has nowhere to go besides having a very short life.  However, maybe there could be some other pertinent points you'd like to pull out of it and continue with?  I'd think so, as evidenced by Shawn and Paul's posts...what do you think?

Thanks, James.

[Truthseeker]

The main point of my post was about the prepositions Tom Talbott made about universalism, and having to reject one of the 3 prepositions, as I accept no 1 and no 2, I have to reject no 3, which in essence makes me a universalist

Sorry, if I broke the rules by posting this topic, it wasn't my intention , I'll ammend the topic after this post, I had no idea I wasn't supposed to post a topic of such a nature

Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused

[jabcat]

You, you rebel you!!   

Per our PM's, all's well.  Thanks.   

[Pierac]

Thomas Talbott in the book "Universal Salvation? The Current Debate". States, the whole thrust of Jesus's teaching, moreover, pointed in the same direction.

Jesus categorically rejected the prevailing understanding of the retaliatory justice.

Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

, the prevailing understanding of limited forgiveness…

 Mat 18:21  Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22  Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

and the prevailing understanding of a limited obligation to love

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why, according to Jesus, are we to love our enemies as well as our friends? So that we might be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect Why should there be no limit to our forgiveness? So that we might be perfect as even our Father in heaven is perfect. Why must we forsake retaliation of a retributivist kind?  So that we might be perfect for even as our Father in heaven is perfect.  As I see it, then, we have here overwhelming evidence that God, as Jesus understood him, never ceases to love his own enemies, never ceases forgiving them, and sees no ultimate justice in punishment of the retributivist kind. The idea that we are expected to be better than God is unthinkable.

Paul

[marie glen]

Thomas Talbott who wrote the inescapable love of God wrote

Thomas Talbott, a philosophy professor at Willamette University, Salem, Oregon, offers three propositions which are biblically based but cannot all be true at the same time.

1. God is omnipotent and exercises sovereign control over all aspects of human life and history

2. God is omni-benevolent, is ontologically Love, and desires the salvation of all people.

3. Some (a lot) of people will experience everlasting, conscious torment in a place of (either literal or metaphorical) fire.[12]

Amen,men! Logic very much dictates that God can only be 100% good/benevolent and 100% perfect. Anything less than this is impossible. Since He can only be perfect, or else He Himself could not endure, the 'end' result of all this (unavoidable journey/lesson of learning good from evil (Life from death?) can only be the best one possible. Anything else is utterly impossible.