Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on awareness.

[whyiloveitaly]

ReverendG:
Now I understand what you meant.. I apologize if I offended you!

Which makes me think..Paul truly had a very unique experience, didn't he? Knocked off his high horse, and after he received the revelation of Jesus, he went away for about three years. (Wasn't he supposed to start handing out tracts or something? Go to seminary maybe?  )

Galatians 1: 11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12   For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.



Three years is a long time.. Christendom wouldn't have gone along with that at all..

Love and blessings to all,
Bri

[whyiloveitaly]

No offence to any who may hand out tracts or frequent a seminary..!!! 

Bri

[jabcat]

ReverendG:
Now I understand what you meant.. I apologize if I offended you!

Which makes me think..Paul truly had a very unique experience, didn't he? Knocked off his high horse,
Bri

I certainly didn't have Paul's unique experience, however, my "day" God chose to drag me to His side was certainly a day different from all others...not sure I had much if any real choice, it was more like "He intended to have me"...I asked my wife (raised Baptist, denominational all her life) about her day of God coming to her and asking for her response if she felt she really had a choice...she said no...I know this is a tricky discussion, and I believe we obviously have been give the responsibility to make some decisions, however, God will arrange things so they occur "after the counsel of His own will" and He will, in His timing, "draw [literally 'drag'] all men unto Me".  God's blessing.

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

I do agree that  1 John 2:16 is describing coveting, and I do agree that to seek after the the things of the world is certainly not profitable, as we are called to seek those things which are above instead. Thanks for providing a scripture.

1 John 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Colossians 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Well yes, part of understanding scripture, is to go deeper into the meaning of the things it discuss. Coveting, will cover a wide range of both human desire that is good, or it can be evil. Its not just limited to whats listed in the ten commandments. And yes, even God can be coveted. The reason why Jesus said " In vain do they worship me", is because they coveted him in ways that he does not approve of. These people discussed here, are believers in God, worshipping him, or coveting him, but were doing so, and still do so, under the influence of their family traditions, so Jesus rejects there worship.

Now when Jesus does this, he knows the heart desire of these worshippers, hey, they are trying to communicate with him. They want him, desire him, covet him, its just that Jesus is not in aggrement with their doctrines. Doctrines themselves can be an extention of coveting in some situations.

The  nature of coveting is vast, which is why put it in the 10 commandments in the first place. We even covet ourselves. In Rom.12:3; we are told not to think of ourselves more highly that we ought to. We can fall into the coveting of our own self worth. Its not wrong to value yourself, but it is wrong to over value your esteem. And people create doctrines that have come from an overestimation of themselves. Once self has reached a very highly esteemed level, its just hard to back down from such a lofty view. When a believer in God does this, they are open to all kinds of distortion, and they will defend themselves just as highly distorted. Seeking to establish themselves as right, their zeal for God is great, but it has passed the point of being in accordance with Gods knowledge, and from their own knowledge, they unknowlingly are really submitting to the knowledge of God, which then moves them into areas of worship that Jesus rejects.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

I think you're writing some very truthful things Mickiel. Coveting can be a sin, whereas desiring "coveting" the gifts of the Spirit may be different.
If what we do is moved with a sincere heart in love, it should be difficult to go wrong.
Example: if someone wants to grow in the Lord, that might be considered a good thing. If that seeking and growth leads to becoming more of a Son, it's "good." If it leads to self-righteousness, a judgmental spirit and lack of heart, it's "bad."

These are big issues.

It's also true that God moves when He wants to. Not everybody agrees with it at first, but in the end, even when we pray fervently, God doesn't always show up as we expect or when we expect.

Your mention of life in prison was important to me. Yes, this whole world is suffering. Someday, we shall be made free.

One thing remains: that when we cast our ALL onto the Lord, He takes the burden for us. At least I can speak for myself, He has never abandoned me, although the road is sometimes rocky and dark.

Maybe all of the suffering is where our salvation is being worked out..

Love to all,
Brian

[Mickiel]

I think you're writing some very truthful things Mickiel. Coveting can be a sin, whereas desiring "coveting" the gifts of the Spirit may be different.

Well yes, one can covet even in desiring the things of the Spirit. Many christians here may look at this subject as if they themselves are immune to it, as if they cannot covet the things of God. But it is being done, and just unreconized by those who do it.

Coveting the things of the Spirit, is excessive unusual claims about what it has done in you. Or asking God to do excessive unusual things for you. In Matt. 20:23, the mother of James and John request of Jesus that he let James and John sit on his left and right in the Kingdom. A lofty request, which is a coveting of the Spirit. I know many here don't like to think about it, but I think the claims of the Kingdom being now within them, and that they are now Born Again, is the same excessive inordinate desire. The same Spirit of coveting, the same excessive desire, the same kind of thinking that requires God to do more than he is either ready to do, or even wants to do.

For example, if the parent tells the child that they " Can" have something, it will be given to them, its for them, but they will get it next month. If the child takes it before next month, they have possessed something that they " Know is Theirs", so they won't view it as coveting. I think many believers are in this catagory with the Kingdom now being within and now being Born again. They have taken it, and willnot view it as coveting the things of God.

In Matt. 6:19-21;" Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where thieves break in and steal." Keep them in heaven where they cannot be stolen. For where your treasure is there will your heart be also. Being Born Again and having Gods Kingdom on Earth right now, are indeed treasures, they stimulate the Spiritual Consciousness, but for some reason people don't seem to believe that they can be stolen on earth. Will a man rob God, of course he will, espically the Priest of God, they have more access to the goods of God.

When Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, it was done because of coveting bread and Lentil Stew. Excessive inordinate desire, simple food for a Birthright. So the inordinate desire is always either expressed in the inner drive of the person, or the lofty prize they covet.

And Coveting is a sin that the bible mostly places emphisis on believers committing, this is no outside job.

Christian have a way of depersonalizing things and always point the finger outward instead of inward.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

I admit that sometimes I'm jealous of Paul. I think, "Lord, you gave him a direct revelation of You right from the start! (Today Christendom tells people, 'choose Jesus!!,' as if it depended on them!)
But You chose Paul. And he saw things that weren't lawful to utter (whatever that would imply). His life had red-letter in it!"

Today many Christians want a life filled with "red-letter." Like on another post here, one said that God told him to do A. The other said that God told him to do B. And they ended up fighting. (The real Spirit of Christ would yield to the other, I would believe. Jesus also said "resist not evil.")


Patience! God will do all good things in His time!

I'm just grateful He has placed a desire in me to seek Him. Otherwise I'd still be out there doing what I was doing before....which wasn't very good! And He is GOOD!

Love to all,
Bri

[Mickiel]

In Matt.23:24-26, Jesus goes directly into the nature of " Spiritual Coveting", or claiming more than God has offered, or just trying to swallow more things of God, before you have finished digesting the first few gulps. Because of understandable desire, we tend to want " Big Gulps."

And these verses Jesus taught are directed at believers, who are trying to consume more righteousness. " You blind guides", so he is discussing believers who try to guide others, " Who strain out a gnat  and swallow a camel." Swallowing the camel is stuffing things into your belief that are a bit much for you right now. Vs.25;" Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but  inside they are full of robbery and self indulgence." Can a man rob God, well yes, through the coveting of excessive spiritual desires. Big gulps of Gods blessings and promises, or a camel. Large annointings and things that look so good on the outside, meaning things you proclaim in public. Your image of what you now are. Things we rob and indulge ourselves with like treasure.

Firts clean the inside of the cup, the public  image and confessions will come later. And they will. Deal with how you really are. Because its not the Knowledge going in you that deceives you, its the beliefs that are comming out of you, which are really hurting your belief. If you are not ready to understand and explain the lake of fire, the hell verses, the kingdom of God, being born again, your just not ready. You don't have to swallow those things, and spit out vain speculations, it the proper time, when GOD GIVES IT, you will then have it.

People claim to have the Holy Spirit, but always speak of a certain day or event that they were given it, as if that be proof. No, no, speak of the undeniable fruits of the Spirit that are consistantly growing out from you.

Let me give a real example of a witness comming from a Spirit filled person, just in example. It would be like this; " Brothers let me tell you what God has done to me." I am much more patient than ever before. I Love people now, where I didnot prior. I am happy and full of a Joy that I never understood. I am actually naturally Kind each day to anyone. Goodness is a part of my nature, and it is expressing ITSELF from within me, to outside of me. I am Faithful to Gods word, and pleasing God in my living. My nature is really Kind, my heart is far more Kind than I know I was. And I have a supernatural self control about my self.

This is the witness of the Spirit filled person, NOT some calender emotional event. This is the Revelation one will receive, " Right from the Start" of God giving his Holy Spirit. And there will be no doubt that this has occured within you, because it will come out of you. It will overtake you, just as sin and the lust of the flesh overtook you. Christian characther is not mere moral or legal correctness, but the actual " Possession" AND manifestation of Gods graces. Christian characther IS NOT taking possession of the promises of God! It is NOT taking Gods word in faith and making claims on Gods word.

Christian characther will reflect an inner, THEN outer portrait of Christ. In this it is understood correctly that it " Is no longer I, but Christ IS now in me." Not the promises of Christ in you, the actual Spirit and Mind of Christ, IS now in you, BECAUSE it is comming out of you in YOUR living, thinking, dreaming while unconscious, and expressing your consciousness in your changed behavior. This characther is only possible when a very vital union with Christ has been established. If Jesus has not finished this within you, and you take it from him and claim it, your just taking big gulps.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

As the world turns, anticipation turns with it. To many, Christ is comming tommorrow, so those many must somehow fulfill the scripture tonight. They rush his comming, they rush in interpiting scripture, they rush in receiving his gifts. To others, Christ delays his comming, so they continue on and anticipate nothing soon. To Jesus it was simple, he does not know  when his Father will bring the Kingdom. And if Jesus does not know when the Kingdom comes, then there does not exist now some secret passage, where it came within selective humans now. Jesus said not even the day or the hour is known, Matt.24:36, not even Angels are aware of it. Interestingly, some have received a " Holy Pass" from this, and have already received the Kingdom within. Their citizenship was in Heaven, but somehow they transfered it down here now. And I think it is due to great Anticipation, or great desire to realize something before hand. To foretaste or forsee, or as in a narrative, to take something before the expected time. Or simply to Covet.

Jesus compares The Kingdom to two simple things in Luke 13:18-21. The mustard seed that a man threw into " His Own" garden, and it grew and " Became " a tree. This could be a literal reference to the garden of Eden, which is Jesus " Own Garden." He then compared it to " Hidden Leaven", which was hidden until it " Was All" leavened. Not bits and selective parts of it, until it was " All" leavened. The Kingdom is Leavened as a whole, not in parts, so it cannot be in selective people now.

So the Kingdom of God can be compared to something Christ is preparing, and hideing, until all of the Kingdom is ready.

But anticipation can change the meaning of scripture, espically scripture that tingles the taste buds of the Coveting consciousness.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

As the world turns, anticipation turns with it.

But anticipation can change the meaning of scripture, espically scripture that tingles the taste buds of the Coveting consciousness.

Peace.

A classic example of this ability of anticipation, is Luke 17:20-21." Now having been questioned by The Pharisees as to when the Kingdom of God was comming, he answered them and said, " The Kingdom of God is not comming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, " Look, here it is or there it is. For behold, the Kingdom of God is in your Midst." Here Jesus really couldnot give them a time when the Kingdom was comming, because he does not know the answer, only the Father knows that. Matt.24:36 is clear on that. So Jesus gave a different view to them, he told them the Kingdom would come, but not with " Outward signs that men would reconize", then he swtiches back and makes a reference to " Himself", he said the Kingdom is in your Midst.

Jesus was NOT refering to the Kingdom being " Inside of the Pharisees", but he was talking DIRECTLY to them. The Kingdom of God was not in the Pharisee, but Jesus was standing in their Midst. Which is what the Greek word " Entos" means, in THEIR Midst. Or standing in the middle of them. Many Kingdom coveters use this verse as a catapolt to their belief of the Kingdom " Being in their Midst", or being literally inside of them. Jesus was not inside of the Pharisees, but he refered to himself here as the Kingdom. So from this point of view, many believers see Jesus as being inside of them, so they see it as the Kingdom being within them.

Of course I disagree with that. I personally believe the Kingdom of God was planted within the Garden of Eden. Or centered there. It is a literal place, and God uses the symbolism of " Trees" to explain it to humanity. In Ezekiel 17:23-24, this is explained. In Eden, God planted the " Tree of Life", that Tree is a basic root of the Kingdom. Its root structure and its branches, willnot be uprooted from that literal place, and placed within people. But if you " Spiritualize" this, then you can change the meaning of it. When God uses " Symbols" to explain something, then anyone can introduce their own meaning into it.

People will come to that " Tree of Life" and receive healing from it. So its easy to believe that we can " Eat from the Tree", literally eat its leaves, and thus internalize them, thus the Kingdom is now within us. And I understand that. But would only agree with this occuring when God brings the Tree to earth for all to consume its power. Then the people and the Kingdom land will be one. Who can resist the temptation to " Be One with it now!" This is the allure of the " High " calling, and it certainly does make you high, higher than any drug that I am aware of.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

Mickiel:
I agree with much of what you write. We cannot "force" the Kingdom to come.

Rather, maybe we should be more concerned with not resisting it when it does come! (whenever that might be..)

And some "unbelievers" have their eyes open more than many of us "believers!"

Just a thought anyway...!

Bri

[arcticmonster2003]

quote whyiloveitaly

And some "unbelievers" have their eyes open more than many of us "believers!"

I disagree. While there eyes may be open, they are standing in the dark, and therefore cannot see anything. Jesus Christ is the Light, without him there is no light. What is it you think unbelievers "have their eyes open to" while seperated by unbelief from Jesus Christ?

Unbelief, can actually be a form of punishment.

Luke 12:45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

[whyiloveitaly]

Hi Arcticmonster2003!

What I'm saying is that some "unbelievers" are able to recognize truth more than "believers."

Believing does not depend upon us. It depends on God.

Bri

[arcticmonster2003]

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Light, and the Truth. If they have not yet accepted the Truth, then what foundation are they building their house of truths upon, for they have denied the very Son of God, whom came in the flesh. Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. They have denied, as of yet, while they are still called "unbelievers", mans only task in which he was given to complete by his Maker - and they speak of "truth"?

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


1 Corinthians 3:11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Again I ask you, which truths do unbelievers recognize more than believers. Give a couple of examples please.

[whyiloveitaly]

Arcticmonster2003:
There are people who are involved daily in helping and supporting their neighbors who are suffering and who are lonely. Many of them are not "Christian" by church standards. But their works speak otherwise.

Being a Christian is not about correct doctrine; it's about correct action.

Brian

[arcticmonster2003]

I am surprised that you have witnessed that unbelievers do this more that believers. This is not what I have witnessed. But if that's what you have witnessed then thats that, thats your witness, I'll not argue with what you have bore witness to.

[whyiloveitaly]

Arcticmonster2003:

Unfortunately, that is what I see. Maybe we could dedicate a thread to this as well...?

Bri

[Mickiel]

Universal Salvation is a Conscious Awareness that is not based on Awareness. In 2Tim.2:9 Paul stated that he had to be imprisoned, but that " The Word of God cannot be Imprisoned." Yet so many people are not aware of Gods word, but the Truth is not based on their awareness. So the Truth has not yet " Entered into their Consciousness", because once the Truth enters into a Consciousness, " It cannot be imprisoned in that Consciousness", nor will it hold limitations. The Truth cannot be constrained, it cannot be locked down, it will not atrophe or corrode.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

I wanted to go back over a few things in this post on Consciousness, because I think many of us actually are giving themselves too much credit for their own Consciousness, and from this self adorned crowning, comes many of the disputes that we see people are having. In 2 Pet. 1:21, " For no Prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit of God."

Now whatever percentage of the bible is Prophecy, none of that was self induced Prophecy, or the opinion of the writers. Yet its very important in  the Spiritual relating of things to understand that the most important of things, are inspired by God, not human learning or perception. An act of human will, is self inspired viewpoint. And because we hold consciousness, we like to think that our thoughts are Spiritual, that our teachings are valid. But being moved by the Holy Spirit, is not a magnification of self consciousness. Or self awareness, there is a thin line in believing that God has installed a self improvement program on the Earth, as in understanding that the Spirit brings out an awareness of God first, not a centerline on yourself awareness.

Men moved by the Holy Spirit; In Christ we live and are Moved, and have our being. Is the annointing of God a Movement of you being steeped in personal growth patterns that are so great, that you Spiritually leap past and above normal humans?

No, in fact , at times I think its the oppisite, a lowering, a humiliation, a dying that locks you into areas that you do not want to be in, yet God is actively working on your " Subconsciousness", and actually doing a lot of Spiritual work there.

And I want to get into that some.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corithians 3:16)

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to (lit, in) them that are lost (lit, perishing):  In whom the god of this world (lit, eon) hath blinded the minds (lit, apprehensions) of them which believe not..." (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Galatians 5:16-18...
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Which desire determines your nature?  To be motivated by the lusting of the Spirit brings about the transformation into the image of God, from glory into glory.

-------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 12:31...
31 But covet earnestly (be zealous of) the best gifts (lit, greater graces): and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (lit, And still I am showing you a path according to transcendence.)

"The Love Chapter" (1 Corinthians 13)

1Corinthians 14:1...
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather (even more) that ye may prophesy.
-------------------------------------------

James 4:4-6...
4...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5  Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
One of God's names is JEALOUS! (Exodus 34:14)  We are being confomed to His image and likeness (lit, phantom and similitude.) 

Romans 8:2,5-14...
2...the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Ephesians 4:3-14...
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Entos is plural for "in!" (not, "with," or, "among," which is meta.)

2 Corinthians 4:6-7...
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Doesn't look like just one verse to me!  God commands us to covet spiritual manifestations.  We're God's temple and He is in us with all His Jealous lusting, causing our spirit (in union with His) to lust, unless we're none of His. 

[Reverend G]

ReverendG:
Now I understand what you meant.. I apologize if I offended you!

No offense taken!  I myself have had my own spiritual experiences, some quite dramatic, and others I know have as well.  The thing being that upon reflection, the path that led to us being open to such experiences was plain to see.  To be knocked for a loop out of the blue, like a kid sleeping in class....what a concept.

Which makes me think..Paul truly had a very unique experience, didn't he? Knocked off his high horse, and after he received the revelation of Jesus, he went away for about three years. (Wasn't he supposed to start handing out tracts or something? Go to seminary maybe?  )

Galatians 1: 11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12   For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ...

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.



Three years is a long time.. Christendom wouldn't have gone along with that at all..

Love and blessings to all,
Bri

[Mickiel]

I understand this subject to be perhaps both meat and hard bones, tuff meat, needing marinating by the Holy Spirit, or it may insult your spiritual intelligence. But just talk with God about it, he means well for us. Hes not trying to trip us up. God will work on your subconscious way before he gives you his Spirit. Again use Jesus as the example of this. For 30 years, the very Son of God lived on this earth without the Spirit comming upon him. And He was  Conceived by it! But he was being prepared all those years. In Matt. 3:16 he was finally baptised and the Spirit " Came upon him."

Now here we have Jesus, born of the Spirit, lived 30 years and NEVER claimed that he had the Spirit of God. This example is totally useless  to the presentday Sons of God, because they refuse to believe that they can be conscious of God, led by God, prepared by God, but the Spirit not yet has come upon them.

Thats because Universal Salvation is BOTH a Conscious and Subconscious Awareness, but the receiving of Gods Spirit is not based on that awareness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? (1 Corithians 3:16)

Romans 8:8-10...
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. (2 Corinthians 4:7)

God cohabits the same body with us, His Spirit in union with our spirit, which quickens us to life that operates as a law superior to the law of sin unto death that is the normal state of once-born men in the flesh.  By His presence manifesting within us we are raised into newness of life to be seated in the heavenlies with Christ.  This is Scripture and this is the testimony of many who have recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:38-40...
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Without the gift of the Holy Spirit there is no Eclessia (Church) because it is His body and would be a dead body without His Spirit.  As Scripture says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)  You promote an idea that is the opposite of Scripture.  The following illustrates:
2 Corinthians 5:14-18...
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God...

Your teaching, according to the Scriptures I've quoted, leaves us still in the flesh and unable to please God.  We're still dead in trespasses and sins.  But the promise of the Spirit is still fulfilled for whoever God calls to Himself.  It is only by the spirit that we are able to percieve God.  Without that we cannot be transformed.  As it is written:
2 Corinthians 3:15-18...
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Paul's testimony is the same as mine and many others:
2 Corinthians 4:10-11...
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
If you do not die to your flesh, which is an operation of the Spirit of God, then you spiritually die, rendering you incapable of manifesting the life of Jesus.
Galatians 2:20...
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
His faith!

2 Corinthians 13:5-6...
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Mickiel
Now here we have Jesus, born of the Spirit, lived 30 years and NEVER claimed that he had the Spirit of God. This example is totally useless  to the presentday Sons of God, because they refuse to believe that they can be conscious of God, led by God, prepared by God, but the Spirit not yet has come upon them.

Thats because Universal Salvation is BOTH a Conscious and Subconscious Awareness, but the receiving of Gods Spirit is not based on that awareness.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Jesus is the Firstborn of many bretheren, and he lived in the flesh, 30 years, without having Gods Spirit come upon him, which means most of his earthly life. So you think that your life is going to be different than his? You think your going to have Gods Spirit most of your Life, Jesus didn't, and he IS the Standard set. Jesus life IS the example of how God gives his Spirit
 and we can learn from what God did to him. God does not change in his manner of dealing with his Sons. There are NO examples in the bible of any human having Gods Spirit for a long extended amount of time, with the only possible exceptions of Noah or Job, and I am not even 100% convinced about them. But I think Job had to have it. Because he was perfect in all his ways.

Jesus firsts 30 years on earth were developmental years, training and learning, and Living WITHOUT the annointing he received at his Baptism. And I believe this is exactly what God is doing, has done, to those who he is interested in choosing now. The Calling of God, is without the Holy Spirit, it has not come " Upon You", although your learning may be conceived by it, your consciousness pricked by it some time ago, as Jesus was conceived by it.

Now I have said many times, that those called, do receive " Vistations" from the Spirit, it will deal with them, but it comes and goes, this is how the Spirit does me, it does not stay. Notice this principle in John 1:33; and look close. Many of you faulter by looking at Gods word, but not looking closer at it, deeper into it. Speaking of Jesus;" He upon whom you see the Spirit descending AND " Remaining" upon him. Notice how John said this. The Spirit comming, AND Remaining! That is very important in understanding how God uses his Spirit. Because more than often, God sends the Spirit upon people, but it does not remain upon them. And this is why there is no church of God on earth now, because the Spirit is visting, but not remaining, and the people are not conscious of this. So God is teaching their subconsciousness, more than he is their conscious minds. When God opens a person to new truth, its not really new, its already within their subconscious mind, God just opens it up to their consciousness, and thats how we really learn, and can learn so quick.

Anyhow, I want to go a little further into this.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

I understand this subject to be perhaps both meat and hard bones, tuff meat, needing marinating by the Holy Spirit, or it may insult your spiritual intelligence. But just talk with God about it, he means well for us. Hes not trying to trip us up. God will work on your subconscious way before he gives you his Spirit.

Garbage is more like it! pickled in lie! I did no rightousnesses.  I was nothing but a poor lost sinner, literally, a wicked man with a great big need! and then and there He gave me a vision of Jesus on the cross and put His own Ghost in me!  Through all my wanderings and stumblings, He has never forsaken me, just as He promised!

Again use Jesus as the example of this. For 30 years, the very Son of God lived on this earth without the Spirit comming upon him. And He was  Conceived by it! But he was being prepared all those years. In Matt. 3:16 he was finally baptised and the Spirit " Came upon him."

Now here we have Jesus, born of the Spirit, lived 30 years and NEVER claimed that he had the Spirit of God. This example is totally useless  to the presentday Sons of God, because they refuse to believe that they can be conscious of God, led by God, prepared by God, but the Spirit not yet has come upon them.

"Unto you is BORN this day in the city of David a savior, who is Christ the Lord." (Lk 2:11)  Now this was spoken by an angel.  Did he get his facts straight?  Born Christ, Messiah, The Annointing, and born the Kurios, Lord, Supreme and Ultimate Authority!  This is the Holy Spirit made flesh.  He could not be without the Spirit of God.

He said it would only be a little while and He would come to us as Spirit and be in us and we in Him.  This commenced on the day of Pentecost and continues from thence til now.  Just as Jesus promised to not leave us fatherless, so He is always with the Father, "I am in my Father." (Jn 14:20)

John 14:15-20,26...
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth (lit, is remaining) with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.