Author Topic: Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on awareness.  (Read 28357 times)

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jenna

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Italy, can you give me scripture to tell me the Kingdom will not be on earth?

whyiloveitaly.com

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Jenna:
More than not ON earth, my personal feeling is that it will be IN earth (that is, IN you and I). I'm just not convinced that it is something physical that people will see (i.e. come here! or, go there!). Very similar to what Mickiel has said previously, you will see it because of the people that manifest it. All over the place. In hearts everywhere. When and where is up to Him. But we will miss it if we don't judge righteous judgment. That is, if you see a company of people and everyone sick who falls under their shadows gets healed, you better say it's of God! (Religious Christendom will condemn it, however, because it's not "theirs" and not "approved" by them.)

Like what happened when Jesus came to earth, just on a larger scale.

Brian

jenna

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Italy, the kingdom of God isn't here in our hearts. That would be the Holy Spirit. I do have scripture on this, and will be back as soon as I find it! :happygrin:

Offline Redlettervoice

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A word or two on the Kingdom of God being "within you" .............
I just noticed yesterday this scripture.

Quote

Joh 4

For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
Quote

Joh 7:18 -
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


Would seeking his own glory be connected to shewing himself to the world?Even after His Resurrection, He showed Himself to WITNESSES Chosen, not to all. ???


That whole chapter goes into these subjects if you want to check it out.

Emphasis is made on "he that DWELLETH in the SECRET PLACE."   Surely, Jesus knew where that PLACE was and DWELLED there til He could say that it was HIS FATHER that "honored" HIM, not man.

HIS FATHER's acceptance of His laying down His LIFE was shown when
He was "raised UP in that SECRET PLACE."

Was He still showing Himself to the world?
 
He ate and drank with "witnesses" "CHOSEN." 

The Bible specifically says " NOT to all,
but to "witnesses chosen"........
.

There was ONE chosen to take JUDAS's PLACE,
and He was to be a witness..........
there's lots of stuff there to study out. I sure don't have
it all figured out yet myself...but I always wondered why the
Bible didn't say anything further about Matthais. 

Emphasis is also made on being "delivered from this PRESENT WORLD."

It is a deep subject being "translated into the Kingdom".....
methinks that is where Elijah was translated to, and Enoch. 
And others of course.
Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit...saith the Lord.
After all, it is the work of the Spirit that has to do these things.


I had never noticed that that I highlighted in RED before.

I am open to God showing me about the "outward" but so far, I see it "INWARD."
I think Jesus was "satisfied" with His FATHER knowing HIM inwardly.

When they said "himself seeketh to be known openly."
Was that His desire? Or theirs?

He desired to fellowship
with his disciples "intimately." 

That is why He said, "My SHEEP "know" my voice,
and they follow, a stranger they will NOT follow." 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meant to say I think there is truth in what Jenna is saying about the HOLY Spirit, and I think
there is truth also in what Itlay is saying. I do see a KINGDOM that God talks about in the
scriptures that there is nothing in but God and what is LIKE God.  Daniel speaks of it. 
It is all interesting, isn't it?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 06:07:02 PM by Redlettervoice »

whyiloveitaly.com

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I believe there is important continuity in the Scriptures where Jesus tells the disciples that they would not taste of death until they had seen the Kingdom of God, and then few days later, He took them up on the mount and was transfigured before them.

Some believe that THIS that the disciples saw is the Kingdom that we seek.

Brian

Mickiel

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Quote from: whyiloveitaly

Today I feel Jesus dwelling in me. And to me, that IS the Kingdom. It's not just for me, it's for everyone.

Love to all,
Bri
[/quote


Well you have what you have, me personally, I don't " Feel" Jesus in me. I personally don't know him or God. I sure would like to, sure need to, but whatever has gripped you, has not touched me.

I am a man without these experiences that some of you claim. And from what I have read, those experiences are mostly filled with emotional feelings. I try not to comment on anyonesles experience but my own. I have none, I have not emotionally experienced God. My life is one of being without him, I only hold a hope in him, and some days that hope grows faint.

While others are claiming the Kingdom to be  within them, I only know that sin is in me, so my reality is one of indwelling sin.

And thats the only reality I can bear witness to.

Peace.

jabcat

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Mickiel:
Well, I must say that there are a couple of scriptures that have come to mind. Indeed, God calls whom He will in His own time. And I believe that will include everyone of us. Example: Jer. 31:34--- "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

All I can say is that I had a feeling that God existed. I began to study the Bible (without much "religious guidance") and I saw that the disciples received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. And I saw that they were changed; before it, Peter was ashamed of being a disciple. But after, he considered it a priviledge to suffer persecution for His name's sake!
So I began to pray saying, God, if you're real, I need to FEEL you! It's not enough to just believe.
And one day, it happened! (I wasn't in any church building when it did, either!) Man, what a flood of love!

And from that day, I wanted to talk about Jesus. Before, it wasn't that way.

Again, I hope I don't offend you! It's my experience. And I'm no one special!

Some would say that it was "mind over matter." All I can say is, if it is, we need more of it in this world!

And you know what?

That feeling of love made me understand that our God is a God that saves and cares. He's not like man (just like you said at the start of this thread).

And many of the religious crowd (unfortunately) haven't experienced His love yet. That's why they don't see UR.

Or maybe they just don't WANT to see UR.

Anyway, if I could say one last thing it would be, "don't box God in.--He can do more than we could ever imagine or wish!"

Many blessings!
Bri

Just starting to read through these posts, maybe half-way through, so I hope I'm not mis-speaking.  However, although much good has been said so far, I support you in these statements.  I believe God will totally change us all, in the future(doesn't scripture speak of putting off the mortal and gaining immortality?), but I believe He is also choosing whom He will right now to save, regenerate according to His own will and purposes....and that we know it when it happens...we become that "new man (person), and all things are becoming to be made new".  WILI, give thanks and hold fast to your day(s) of salvation...God's blessing.

whyiloveitaly.com

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Mickiel:

"God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

I think you are special to this forum (and probably to others in your life), because you are very honest and not afraid to discuss and dialogue and reflect. Not many people have this gift, and I've seen some people who were this way and then change when they "get religious." Once they were accepting and open; then they "get saved" and start judging and closing up.  :mshock:

Don't underestimate your desire to know more about our Father. It is He who gives you that desire! (I see people all day long who wouldn't believe in God if He fell on top of them..)

What I felt that day in 1990 was a unique experience that I never felt since. In fact, there was a moment sometime later that I felt I had lost that "realm."
I would like to experience it again (God knows). Yet His time and ways are not our time and our ways.
So we just continue on, hoping that He'll reveal more of Himself to us, because without His presence we perish. That is the pain of this life.
Can God hold it against us if we ask for something and He doesn't give it to us? I think not.

So we all have to just wait..IMHO..

And in the meantime, we can love each other, as He commanded us.

Love to all,
Brian

jabcat

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Very good post Brian, and Mickiel, God's blessings to you.

arcticmonster2003

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Perhaps if I establish for you scripturally Mickiel that the rein of Jesus Christ and the ushering in of his Kingdom began at the cross then you might (just maybe), change your mind. And by chance Luke 22:18 is the exact prophecy that is fulfilled on the cross that I will be addressing.

quote Mickiel
Quote
Well yes, I think truth is being spread. In paying close attention to Jesus in Luke 22:18;" For I say unto you, I willnot drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the Kingdom Comes." Well some just feel that Jesus is drinking it now, because they claim the Kingdom is already come within them. I simply doubt that is true. Nothing personal against them, but its just what I read.

Peace.




Luke 22:18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

I actually did write some time back, that this was a prophetic word referring to his crucifixion. Now there were a couple of issues that I had to work through, mainly that there were two instances of being offered sour wine, once before he was fully crucified, and once right before he said "it is finished". Also the other issue that I had to work through for at least one skeptic is whether vinegar or sour wine is actually "fruit of the vine". I'll make these points here as well for you to look over and decide for yourself.

So lets look at that scripture again

Luke 22:18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Now in Matthew and Mark he there is clearly 2 difference instances of being offered the sour wine, Mark is most specific, so lets look at it and use the other 3 gospels to add detail as needed. I shall put my comments in red. It should be noted that the Gospel of Luke is the least informative in the quest for more detail, but in it is the prophetic word regarding the fruit of the vine and the Kingdom. It should also be noted that though Luke lacks detail it does not in any way contradict my findings.

Mark 15:22  And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23  And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24  And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
We see in verse 24 that Jesus was offered wine mixed with myrrh and that he did not receive it, and we see in verse 25 that this happened in the third hour of the day
25  And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.26  And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27  And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28  And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29  And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30  Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31  Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32  Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33  And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
just making a note that in verse 33 we see we are now passing the sixth hour
34  And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35  And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36  And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
now we are in the ninth hour (verse 34) and again he is given vinegar to drink, the Gospel of Mark does not say whether or not he received this second offering, so lets go to The Gospel of John for clarification
37  And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.38  And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

John 19:28  After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29  Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Ok, so first lets establish that this is indeed the second offering, as John makes no mention of the first offering that Jesus refused - - we see that immediately after receiving the vinegar and saying "it is finished" that he gives up the ghost...this is clearly the second offering as we refer to Mark chapter 15 verses 36 and 37 that this is the vinegar offered in the ninth hour which after it is received he dies.

Matthew follows very closely what Mark said, and Luke offers very little to clear up the matter, but it does not contradict either.

Ok, so then I got the argument that sour wine or vinegar had lost all of its essence and is essentially not "fruit of the vine" anymore. Here was my response to what fruit of the vine is according to the word to Nazarites:

Numbers 6:3  He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
4  All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Well, I think that going by this I can safely say that vinegar or sour wine is still considered "fruit of the vine".

Anyway, I think I have shown that after he said:"I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come." that he did indeed drink the fruit of the vine, on the cross, and after he drank it he said "it is finished". I do believe that this established the ushering in of the Reign of Jesus Christ, and his Kingdom.



Again, lest their be debate about whether he did drink the fruit of the vine on the cross (many stop at the instance at the third hour when he refused it and just assume this is the same as the vinegar at the ninth hour, wrongly assume may I say) before saying it is finished, lets look to other translations:

John 19:30

(ASV)  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

(BBE)  So when Jesus had taken the wine he said, All is done. And with his head bent he gave up his spirit.

(CEV)  After Jesus drank the wine, he said, "Everything is done!" He bowed his head and died.

(GNT)  ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβε τὸ ὄξος ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς εἶπε· τετέλεσται· καὶ κλίνας τὴν κεφαλὴν παρέδωκε τὸ πνεῦμα. (sorry, I don't know greek)

(ISV)  After Jesus had taken the wine, he said, "It is finished." Then he bowed his head and released his spirit.

(KJV+)  When3753 Jesus2424 therefore3767 had received2983 the3588 vinegar,3690 he said,2036 It is finished:5055 and2532 he bowed2827 his head,2776 and gave up3860 the3588 ghost.4151

(KJVA)  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

(LITV)  Then when Jesus took the vinegar, He said, It has been finished. And bowing His head, He delivered up the spirit.

(WNT)  As soon as Jesus had taken the wine, He said, "It is finished." And then, bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

(YLT)  when, therefore, Jesus received the vinegar, he said, `It hath been finished;' and having bowed the head, gave up the spirit.


You decide for yourself if the prophetic word that he wouldn't drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom comes was indeed when he drank the fruit of the vine on the cross right before he said it is finished and then died. I must say that all I have written here I did not receive from man, nor church doctrine, nor had I ever even heard these things from any teaching, until I received them from the Spirit of Truth by revelation, yes, it leads us in all truth. I actually didn't do any of the scripture work until after my view was rebutted when I posted it in Mychurch.org. And then, when the scriptures were looked into fully, the Word beared witness to the Spirit.

John 19:29  Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

I think their is also some signifigance to it being offered upon the hyssop:

Psalms 51:7  Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Also, I had posted this on tentmaker before and I can't remember who, I think Cardinal, make the point that perhaps the reason he refused the first mixed wine at the third hour, at the beginning of the crucifixion might be because all was not yet ready for Luke 22:18 to be fulfilled and that this is often how the adversary works, trying to mimic the word and keep us from fully obeying it. Anyway thought that was an interesting point.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 01:02:41 PM by arcticmonster2003 »

whyiloveitaly.com

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Well, the onlookers on Pentecost thought the apostles were drunk.
At any rate, it was special--and I think we could all use some!  :bigGrin:

Love to all,
Brian

P.S. Are you still around, Mickiel?

Mickiel

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Well, the onlookers on Pentecost thought the apostles were drunk.
At any rate, it was special--and I think we could all use some!  :bigGrin:

Love to all,
Brian

P.S. Are you still around, Mickiel?


I am still here, just listening to people. My experience with God is far different than any I read of here. Many of you are truly fortunate. I have had no mind bending experiences with God. No emotional revelations or events, no contact from him, he does not talk to me and I cannot see him. I am still a slave to sin, just not as much of it like in my youth. But I know my flesh still reins over me. My Spirit is willing to know God, to have him in me, but that is not given to me at this time.

You asked me am I still around, I often ask God does he know I am here. Even the ways God chooses to help me in my life, have been unusual and challeging as well as unorthodox. He is stand offish, keeps me from excelling in anything, but sees to my needs. Allows me to learn, but does not give me his Holy Spirit. And keeps me from being a part of any group, has not placed me into his Church.

Its a horrible existance, very painful. Do you know what its like to one day see some Truth in the bible, know that Gods Spirit is right then teaching you, and be in awe of that, but at the same time realize that the  Spirit will not stay in you, it will leave and you will be almost defenseless to this flesh.

Do you know what it is like to really hunger and Thirst for God? To long to know the truth about all things? To crave with all your heart, just to be able to live right and Holy.

Having a Consciousness like this is a hell within itself. So I find then some wisdom in the saying;" I doubt that God would have me live in hell all my life, only to die and go to hell for eternal life."

Peace.

Offline Reverend G

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That sounds truly sad, yet I dare say your experience is not unique.  My own experiences are not nearly so void of His involvement, yet many I interact with have had experiences similar to yours. 
If I knew of any sure fire way to find Him, I would happily share it.  Yet He seems to come to all of us as He finds it beneficial.  Seems you are searching.  Perhaps too hard?  I have never seen anyone succeed in knocking down His door.  Nor have I ever seen Him knock down someone's door to take over their will and change them.  Granted, these things may happen, but not that I have seen.
My personal observations have been that when one has spent years dwelling in ourselves oblivious to His presence, it is not that He is absent, but that He is not going to fight you over who's will be done.  Free will must give way to His will freely.  And you can take back your own free will at any time. Once we have finally realized that our own willfulness is leading us nowhere, and we finally ask Him what He thinks, the answers will come.  And once you have invited Him back into your life, it's harder to turn your back on Him.  It happens, but not as signifigantly, and we know it, and regret it. 
 

Mickiel

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That sounds truly sad, yet I dare say your experience is not unique.  My own experiences are not nearly so void of His involvement, yet many I interact with have had experiences similar to yours. 
If I knew of any sure fire way to find Him, I would happily share it.  Yet He seems to come to all of us as He finds it beneficial.  Seems you are searching.  Perhaps too hard?  I have never seen anyone succeed in knocking down His door.  Nor have I ever seen Him knock down someone's door to take over their will and change them.  Granted, these things may happen, but not that I have seen.
My personal observations have been that when one has spent years dwelling in ourselves oblivious to His presence, it is not that He is absent, but that He is not going to fight you over who's will be done.  Free will must give way to His will freely.  And you can take back your own free will at any time. Once we have finally realized that our own willfulness is leading us nowhere, and we finally ask Him what He thinks, the answers will come.  And once you have invited Him back into your life, it's harder to turn your back on Him.  It happens, but not as signifigantly, and we know it, and regret it. 
 



Well I am not sure myself. I get email from time to time, from people who have read something that I wrote. I quess because they were impressed with it, or moved by it, they assumed that I know God, and that my life is " Spiritually Strong." They then ask me for some kind of help, you can tell they are digging for God themselves. Well I always try to be real with them, discern what I can, and encourage people from that vein of realness. As you say, people cannot force Gods hand, he will come, how and when he does, and thats just how it is. Some are shocked when I tell them I am not converted, they are taken back, surprised at that. But  thats just the truth. We have to be what we are, and hope for God to change that, or bring you higher.

We overstep our bounds when we manipulate God, or use our strong desires to create within us, what God has not. This is the foundation of the " Worldly Churchs", self elevated movements toward God, and Universalist are not immune to this. Its simular to romance, a man can be so strongly attracted to a woman, that he advances toward her, irreguardless of if she advances toward him. He convinces himself, through his own desire, that she is for him. And some will get violent in this process, and try to take her violently, but to him it is not violence, it is romance.

Well I see this same senerio occuring in some people who are in romance with God, they just desire him so strongly. You and I know this is not a matter of right or wrong, its never wrong to strongly desire God. But people, in the heat of their desire, are assuming that God has done something to them, when he  may not have.

I recall comming up in the Baptist church in my youth. I enjoyed a good group of freindships with some wonderful young men in this church. I noticed that eventually, each and everyone of them began to " Become Preachers." Being close to them, I asked each of them how they came to this decision. They each claimed God called them, spoke to them in a dream. I remember so many people in that church, kept telling me " I was next." Oh what pressure that was. But I never surcame to it. I was a great speaker and teacher, at such a young age, but I kept waiting for God to call me, speak to me, but he never did, so I refused to submit to that great pressure, but I always felt left out.

I am no different now, than I was then. Here we are blessed with such wonderful, challanging awareness as the Salvation of all, very controversal belief. I am still surrounded by a good group of believers, each taking off into their calling, each making great spiritual claims of what God has given them.

And he still has not given it to me. So my reaction now, is the same as it was then. I cannot call and annoint myself, nor can people, I will rely on God for that. So I am still waiting on that to happen. And waiting on God is a horrible experience. Because there is a certain thing inside of human nature called " Coveting", and it is very powerful and mighty. I have seen people be given knowledge, and just take off with it and " Become Gods Kings on Earth", and just became his church, his minister, in their minds.

I know that God does not want this for me. He has conditioned me from my youth, to accept that I am nothing without him, and to never elevate myself. And to understand that " A Coveting" exist within me that, without his influence, I will just do what everyonelse has done, and take him for myself.

The thoughts and desires of just being his annointed, the inner pulls of the " Glory" of that, the personal AND public gradification of just being called by him, all these are too much for me, so I need God to squash these things, or I will fall into them.

So to me, God is a Conscious awareness, a hope, and that is all he dangles to me at this time. And nothingelse dangled to me in this world, is greater in my mind, than just the hope of God.

Peace.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on awarenes
« Reply #164 on: January 30, 2008, 08:16:56 AM »
Because of the vaguaries of translation use of an inter-linear would help note more exactly; but something I did a long time ago was circle the word "IN"s every occurence in the first chapter of Ephesians.  That should open some things for a lot of people.  It seems very relevant to some of what you express.  Exercise your faith in the words of Scripture on this matter.  The true faith is not a work of your own.  It accords with grace.

I've noticed that those steeple houses of people that don't teach Divine Healing seldom experience any in their midst, even if they testify of experiencing "the new birth."  Those that give some attention to teach healing, it's Biblical basis, see it occur.  Not for everybody all the time, but regularly.  Isn't the reason for the difference plain to see?

(Though I digress, another similar enlightening exercise is to circle with blue pencil any occurence of "spirit-s,-ual" in 1 Corithians which was written to counteract their unspiritual carnality.)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

arcticmonster2003

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Mickiel, just an observation, but I notice that you speak of "coveting" alot as though it is a bad thing. I disagree, and believe that the commandment was not to covet your neighbor's stuff, and has nothing to do with coveting the things of God.


Let us see what we are not to covet:

Exodus 20:17  Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Deuteronomy 5:21  Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Micah 2:2  And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.


To me coveting in itself is not a bad thing, rather it is the coveting of other peoples "goods" that is bad, and not out of love for them.

Lets take a look at things we not only may, but should covet:

1 Corinthians 12:31  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinthians 14:39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.



Anyway, just a thought, as I was getting the impression from you that all coveting is either bad or unscriptural, which is not the case at all.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:51:54 AM by arcticmonster2003 »

Mickiel

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Mickiel, just an observation, but I notice that you speak of "coveting" alot as though it is a bad thing. I disagree, and believe that the commandment was not to covet your neighbor's stuff, and has nothing to do with coveting the things of God.

.


Well I understand that, I really do. To covet is to want and desire, those things in and of themselves are natural, we will do them , and nothing will stop us from doing it. I cannot say that God does not want humans to desire him, I think he does, I think it is impossible for a human conscious, to not be attracted to life, thus the life giver.

But I just see things differently than you. In Acts 26:14 Paul was on a punishing and killing mission, those he didnot kill, he tried to force them to blaspheme. And the chief priest gave him authority to do that. God intercepted him, and asked him just two things; Why are you doing this, and then a physcological question that I view as the very nature of coveting. Is it hard for you to kick against the goads? What God meant was that he was stimulating the believers himself, driving their belief, and Paul was really being against that, but really didnot know God was behind it. The lesson here is one of who is driving the desire of the human, and I just believe that even Godly desire, is not always driven by God.

God often sent a person into a company of worshippers, only to hint to them that they were not true worshippers. Who in that company would believe that? None of them, they are usually convinced in their belief. That conviction is always centered on two things; Coveting, and Pride. Desire and ego in that desire.

Now, Tentmaker may want to project the appearance of being a house set in Gods order, but I see somethingelse. Some may covet the calling, and accept to themselves that God has done that, but I see some problems with that. But, you know, whos going to listen to that, not if you think yourself signed, sealed and delivered. Not only here, but everywhere I go I see this. I think God is using desire, even desire for him, in creative ways that would baffle the best phycologists amoung us. And God is deadly in this. He will let someone do something, think something, for years and be totally wrong in their thinking. Let you kill and decieve, cause others to blaspheme, then turn around and annoint you an Apostle.

Conversely, he will let a whole group of people think themselves annointed, and leave them inside of that bowl for years, mixing all kinds of things into it, only for them to be the group that he desires a certain point of deception be well laid on earth. Or he can bring a whole group of people together, just to get " One" of them out of the group, and then he totally ignores the rest. You  can't do anything with a power like this, and he is using our desires all along the way. Telling us not to kill, then calling killers into his service. Telling us not to covet, and using coveting to impact his dealings with human pathology.

Anyway, I am too long.

Peace.

Mickiel

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[quote author=Mickiel link=topic=

 You  can't do anything with a power like this, and he is using our desires all along the way. Telling us not to kill, then calling killers into his service. Telling us not to covet, and using coveting to impact his dealings with human pathology.

Anyway, I am too long.

Peace.
[/quote]


As I consider God, I am moved to consider his doings. Perhaps unlike some here, I have spent time in jail. Not much, but the longest stretch was a week. And I have worked inside of a jail, being employed to counsel prisioners. So we had to be behind a " Locked in environment" for 8 to often 16 hour shifts. There is something about being locked up, that " Does Things" to the human consciousness. Men were not meant to be imprisioned, its just one of those things that has to be. Some inmates handle it better than others, some are actually improved by the experience. I hated the few times I went through it, and it created within me a great respect for the laws of our land, and a great love for my freedom. Working in the environment is different, you know your leaving at the end of the shift.

The feeling of wanting to be free is a very strong emotion. When God created and encased humans within the flesh, he created a very special thing called " Life", but he  gave humans life here on earth. I think the first humans created couldnot sin, because they held no consciousness. Animals do not sin, because they have no consciousness. But when God introduced consciousness, or  " His likeness and Image", into Adam, eventually sin multiplied so quickly, that God almost destroyed the earth, but instead purged it. So God can purge a planet, with anything, using fire or water.

Just usings sins chronology, it has increased more dramitcally since Gods last purge. But God has just applied grace with this increase. But when a human is encased within a prisom, contained within a fixed in environment, it just does things to the human. Even the earth itself groans out for freedom.

And I wonder what God is doing with this.

Peace.

adam

  • Guest
Hi Mickiel,

Im so surprised to read you saying you don't feel the Holy Spirit in you.  I read some of your earlier posts and you seem so wise I thought you must be especially blessed. You must be an exceptional person to be able to devote so much energy and thought to God's purposes if you receive so little back. God must have a special plan for you.

God bless you.

arcticmonster2003

  • Guest
I understand where you are coming from Mickiel, that mans desire has caused bad things at times, but I really don't think you have understood fully what I was getting at as far as "coveting", otherwise you wouldn't have said this:

quote Mickiel
Quote
Telling us not to covet, and using coveting to impact his dealings with human pathology.

Where has God told us not to covet? Please show me in scripture where God has told us not to covet so that I can better understand your point. As your point seems to based on the fact that God has told us not to covet, and I cannot, for the life of me, find this in scripture.


As best I can tell from my studies on scripture, God never told anyone not to covet, except in a particular case:  he said don't covet your neighbors possesions. I can see that at some point this "thou shall not covet anything" and that coveting in itself is a sin, has been hammered into you, but was this belief based on scripture, and if so please show me. Or if I have misunderstood your statement quote Mickiel
Quote
Telling us not to covet
, then please show me how.




Mickiel

  • Guest
[quote author=arcticmonster2003 link=topic=1761.

As best I can tell from my studies on scripture, God never told anyone not to covet, except in a particular case:  he said don't covet your neighbors possesions. I can see that at some point this "thou shall not covet anything" and that coveting in itself is a sin, has been hammered into you, but was this belief based on scripture, and if so please show me. Or if I have misunderstood your statement quote Mickiel
Quote
Telling us not to covet
, then please show me how.Quote.


Well I cannot show you what your own mind will block. Coveting is lusting. It is desire and want. Now if you must only see the word, or term covet in scripture, then you will not see lust or want or desire as meaning the same thing. Futhermore if you stay blind to that, then you are blind to all that is in this world. 1John 2:16, is a verse on coveting. But listen, as I have said, I only continue when I sense a willingness from others to understand. Not a will to disagree just for the sake of it.

Right now, you are in an area of fighting your points. I have moved to an area of confidence in my points, so it matters not to me who fights them, as it matters to you.

Peace.

[/quote]

whyiloveitaly.com

  • Guest
I was gonna say something but Adam already said it.

It's true that God knocked down Paul's door. (I disagree with ReverendG on this point.)
Since He knocks down people's doors, we are obviously subject to His plans, and not vice versa. (The problem of Christendom is precisely this.)

I therefore see "free will" as almost a "non-concept." To me today, we are either in the dark or in the light. (Not saying that those in the dark are not saved--to me they are saved. -They just haven't seen God's light yet.)

Gotta go--my colleagues want to take a coffee break..

Love to all,
Bri

whyiloveitaly.com

  • Guest
Back from the espresso thing..

Anyway, there are lots of scriptures that Christendom just doesn't talk about nor understand. (Not that I understand them. I just look at them with awe.)

An example?

where David writes that if he makes his bed in Sheol ("hell"), God is there.

Christendom just won't talk about it. It's like it's taboo.
People here, instead, DO talk about them. Praise God! (And hooray for Tentmaker!)

Love to all,
Bri

arcticmonster2003

  • Guest
Mickiel,

I do agree that  1 John 2:16 is describing coveting, and I do agree that to seek after the the things of the world is certainly not profitable, as we are called to seek those things which are above instead. Thanks for providing a scripture.

1 John 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Colossians 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.


Offline Reverend G

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Don't misquote me now, I never said He could not or would not "knock down someone's door", I accept it may happen, but that I have never known anyone privy to such an experience.