Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on awareness.

[Mickiel]

I think someone can be saved yet not have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Like Mickiel says, if there's the Spirit of God around, people will know it. Because it comes in power, not in word only.

If we get our eyes onto our Father and off of each other, we should see more clearly.
Then, when God decides to, He will move by His Spirit. (Better sooner than later, we hope!)

Bri

Well yes, I believe this also, well I believe we all will be saved anyway, because its what God wants to do, why should he desire anything less? But consciousness is a very volitile creation of God, he is doing something in humans, that he didnot do in Angels. He has given us conscious awareness, while we are in a body of flesh. Thats a unique life form, but then he went further and pricked the human counsciousness in a Spiritual area, which I know he knew would induce coveting. Once you introduce the spector of having eternal life, then the human mind cannot correctly handle that. Being born again has been introduced, Gods Kingdom has been introduced, having Gods Spirit has been introduced. The natural direction of the human mind will be to grab all of those things, and can fabricate them, covet them, irreguardless of what God does. I don't think we understand how far we will go to get the things we want so bad.

Men want and desire to see God put people in hell. Why? Well it reinforces their own self worth. They feel they have made it, they are the gold, and they feel the garbage must be removed. Those who covet Gods Spirit, Gods Kingdom, Gods annointing, well they want it. Want and desire it so bad, they willnot, cannot, view themselves as waiting on God and respecting his time table. So they take it by the force of their own belief.

You know, and I think God has already thought this out. He knew that certain humans, once he pricked them, would respond in this manner. So hes already prepared to deal with this.  He's getting something out of this, and I think it goes like this: Dangle eternal life in front of greedy unknowing humans. Prick some of their minds with the truth. Observe how they covet that eternal life. Dangle the calling to them. Prep their atmosphere with the oncomming, looming blessings that is God. Then make the first last, and the last first. Put those who covet so much that they jumped out of line, in the back, and place those who the first thought was not being considered, into the relm that they coveted.

And this is what I think God will do, because it fits the pattern of God, who has always done what seems impossible to do. The temptation of life is one thing, but the temptation of eternal life, oh how that will seduce. I think one of the most dangerous humans ever, are those who believe God has annointed them, and he has not. That person will live in a self empowering world, and will knock anybody down who gets in their way.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote whyiloveitaly

I think someone can be saved yet not have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Like Mickiel says, if there's the Spirit of God around, people will know it. Because it comes in power, not in word only.

If we get our eyes onto our Father and off of each other, we should see more clearly.
Then, when God decides to, He will move by His Spirit. (Better sooner than later, we hope!)

I can see this discussion is beginning to go in circles now, perhaps it is too much information to be received all at one sitting. I did address earlier in the thread the difference between the power of which you are speaking that it is seen in those whom walk more perfectly in accordance with God's wills, and the believers whom have not yet been established, whom are also acknowledged to have the Holy Spirit. Below is what I wrote on it earlier in this thread.

quote Myself, arcticmonster2003

Mickiel, I understand you do not believe any person has yet obtained the Holy Spirit, because you have not witnessed great works from those same or that you are just not seeing what you expect to see from Spirit filled individuals. Did you ever think about this one - all the epistles were written to people whom were acknowledged to have received the Holy Spirit, as a pledge, and yet they struggled, sinned, were always fighting, sueing each other and such, they did not have the same power and authority that was seen in deed in the apostles, whom were walking more closely to the will of God, and yet it is the apostles whom told us those babes did indeed have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge - for the hope of what is yet to come. Just because one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean they are completely walking in Spirit, doing only the will of God, and it does not mean that God yet intends great works (of his) to yet be accomplished through those whom are not yet tried, refined and perfected - It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that believers are converted, it is that which speaks truth to the unbelievers, imparting spiritual truth, so they know that it is the truth - The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge, and this initial pledge is what you seem to be confusing with the perfected man. IMO.

or.. perhaps you did read the earlier post on this whyiloveitaly and I just didn't explain it adequately or convincingly. But I assure you it is a teaching in accordance with scripture.

If one says they have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and receive it with faith, then another may say as Pauls says.

Acts 19:2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Now, there is John's baptism of repentance and Jesus Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit which comes when one believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, unto which have we been baptized?

For me I have both received John's baptism of repentance, and received Jesus Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would one want to tell me that I have not been baptized in Jesus Christ?

Galatians 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

You know, and I think God has already thought this out. He knew that certain humans, once he pricked them, would respond in this manner. So hes already prepared to deal with this.  He's getting something out of this, and I think it goes like this: Dangle eternal life in front of greedy unknowing humans. Prick some of their minds with the truth. Observe how they covet that eternal life. Dangle the calling to them. Prep their atmosphere with the oncomming, looming blessings that is God. Then make the first last, and the last first. Put those who covet so much that they jumped out of line, in the back, and place those who the first thought was not being considered, into the relm that they coveted.

Your reasoning is truly beyond me Mickiel, this above quote falls somewhere along the lines of "Don't seek God diligently lest you be guilty of coveting" - - come come, let us judge with righteous judgement here.

quote Mickiel

Men want and desire to see God put people in hell. Why? Well it reinforces their own self worth. They feel they have made it, they are the gold, and they feel the garbage must be removed.

I believe all shall be saved eventually Mickiel, it doesn't give me a jolly warm fuzzy feeling that any man should suffer in any way whatsoever, in this life or the next.

quote Mickiel

And this is what I think God will do, because it fits the pattern of God, who has always done what seems impossible to do. The temptation of life is one thing, but the temptation of eternal life, oh how that will seduce.

I have to be honest, this view of things in my personal opinion is a bit twisted. Eternal Life is not a temptation, but the promise, and for those whom believe, even this very moment is a moment of their Eternal Life (of course this must be quickened to our understanding)

quote Mickiel

I think one of the most dangerous humans ever, are those who believe God has annointed them, and he has not.

Is it not easy enough for us to make a distinction between the wolves who want to kill, steal, and destroy and the sheep by their fruits? The real wolves, whom are indeed the most dangerous humans ever, are not annointed, and know darn well they are not annointed, yet they lie. Yet you have not made this simple distinction between the sheep and the wolves in the above quote and just all whom may say they are annointed right now are the most dangerous humans ever, because you know (though we do not know how), that they are not annointed.

Is it not easy enough to spot the true wolves? And if we lack discernment, then we can pray for it, so that we may rightly see the fruits of the wolves and the fruit of the sheep and not just lump them into one big pile.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=arcticmonster2003
Is it not easy enough to spot the true wolves? And if we lack discernment, then we can pray for it, so that we may rightly see the fruits of the wolves and the fruit of the sheep and not just lump them into one big pile.


[/quote]

Well I agree with this. But I think God wants them lumped into the same pile, I doubt that he wants to seperate the wheat from the tare as of now. I think you and others are really making a stand for God, so I do not argue as if I think you are not. I think centuries of human history has fallen into this catagory, Nahum 3:18;" Your Shephards are sleeping, O king of Assyria; your nobles are lying down. Your people are scattered on the mountians. and there is no one to regather them. Vs.19; " there is no relief for your breakdown, your wound is incurable. All who hear about you will clap their hands over you, for on whom has not your evil passed continually?

After the church of God died down when it did, that was the will of God, I don't think for one minute that he wanted the truth to be popular, or continue throughout the ages. That does not make sense to me, but I understand that there are those who think God continuosly has dispensated the truth. Is the kingdom of God divided against itself if God is a no show? No, any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and the church of God cannot be considered to have been prominent throughout history. A revival of the church will happen, but its comming willnot be brought forth by people who think themselves called of God, it will be ushered in by the Holy Spirit, which is coveted by the believers, more than the sinners who do not believe.

Jesus in Luke 13:20;" To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened." Jesus hid the Kingdom, and preached of its revealing and comming. All scriptures that I see, reveal the Kingdom comming at a certain time, to EVERYONE! So those who claim it has come to them now,usurp it to be in them, because of coveting. As if I have to accept that just because they have knowledge.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

But I think God wants them lumped into the same pile,

And may I ask what God having let the sheep be in the midst of wolves has to do with a rebuttal to my remark about our need to discern and make a distinction between the sheep and the wolves?  You agree that a distinction needs to be made but then add other words that seem to be some attempt to make my point moot. It seems this is just skirting the issue and is being used to make some point that is not related to the discussion of making a distinction and using discernment - this is a redirection of the conversation, words that appear to have a point, but do not. It was Jesus Christ and the apostles whom warned us to make a distinction between the sheep and the wolves, lest we be deceived. I'm glad you agree.

Luke 10:3  Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
Matthew 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

quote Mickiel

After the church of God died down when it did

Round and round we go....where there are believers, they make up what is called the church of God, there are more now than ever (about 2 billion), how is it you say it died down, when it seems it is larger than ever. Just because there are few whom are walking closely according to the will of God, or if the will of God is that few noticable works be done, meaning even those filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit may not called to do many noticable works does not mean anything died down, and if this is the will of God, then they are walking in perfect accord with the Spirit, how this correlates to no Holy Spirit present is again beyond me.

quote Mickiel

Jesus in Luke 13:20;" To what shall I compare the Kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened." Jesus hid the Kingdom, and preached of its revealing and comming.

Just because its hidden to most does not mean it is not in effect, notice you are preaching that the Kingdom is like leaven hid in three pecks of meal, and then taken out, to be put back in at the appropriate time, and thats not what Luke 13:20-21 said. In fact these verses you picked are ones that completely disproves your point, from a scriptural stand, that their is not a Body of Christ present on the earth today or in the last 2000 years (give or take a couple hundred years, as I'm not sure which year you think the church died and ceased to exist until another time). There are currently about 2 billion believers, so I would say that the meal is more leavened than it was 2000 years ago.

[Reverend G]

Sorry for just pouncing in with an off-hand comment, but I just saw this thread, and the title is soooooo true.  The whole Universal Salvation concept was something subtly hidden from me for years, as I stood a not quite practicing Catholic.  As my mental questioning of much RC doctrine grew, I grew apart from the church, and God as well.  Slowly, and I am not really sure when or how, my questioning brought me to believe in Universal Salvation, though I had never really heard of it before.  As strength in this idea grew, I eventually sought out others thinking, and realized I was not alone in this thought process. 
Plenty of others have criticized this idea, having been well indoctrinated in their respective denominations.  Many told me that I was just using Universal Salvation to allow myself "licentious freedoms" and excuse them since all would be saved.  What they didn't get was the fact that I was much more "licentious" (sinful) before I found Universal Salvation.  The peace I found in Christ through Universal Salvation has greatly suppressed (not eliminated, I am still a man) my old ways.  Universal Salvation has not led me to licentious behavior, but actually has strengthened my resolve to avoid it.  I see this same result in others as well.  Go figure.

[whyiloveitaly]

Nice post, Reverend G!

For the rest, my head's starting to spin. Can you guys simplify (and shorten) a bit?

Perhaps we come to Universal Salvation through love. "There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus."

God moves when He wants to. Are we following Him (the cloud)? He gives the Spirit to whom He wants, in the measure He wants. All else is flesh. (And there's a lot of flesh, and we can all be guilty of it!)

More than what we believe to be true or not (conscious awareness?), who are we looking to?


My grandpa once said to someone, "Jesus loves you!"
They replied, "yes, but do you love me?"


Bri

[Mickiel]

The Conscious awareness of Universal Salvation is gripping, it stuns you, at least it did me. It has gripped my mind, my life, my whole being, and has a hard grip, it won't let go. This is why I believe that I may well be called to God in the future, because something is there, and its setting up some kind of senerio for my life.

You know, the funny thing is that when I get involved in certain conversations with people, and they tell me I am being used by worldly Spirits, I often wonder if thats my calling. To be some kind of bad clay in Gods hands. I tell him I would rather be dead. I recall one group I used to communicate with, and they told me they think I am being used by God to " Try the Church." Do you know what thats like, to look into the mirror, and not know your calling. Your purpose. You drag on into the next day and hope for change.

I look into Gods word, and just see things differently. Sometimes the Peace of agreement comes, but often I wonder if God will continue with my conscious understanding, and will he produce righteous living in my life. Day drags into another day, and I recall reading Jesus in Luke 13:32-33;" Go and tell that Fox, ( Kind of funny, Jesus calling King Herod a Fox), Behold I cast out demons and perform cures today and tommorrow, and the third day I reach my goal. Nevertheless I must journey on today and tommorow and the next day. for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem." One of the only places Jesus refers to himself as a Prophet.

The days drag on and we do what we do. But Jesus had goals and he always went for them. And he had power to reach those goals. Oh how I wish I were like him.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

There is a little known history of the Church across the ages, largely because of who kept the history.

Between Constantine and Pope Leo, arbitrarily 350 to 500 AD, the bureaucratic institution of Christendom usurped the organic bride of Christ, claiming itself The Church.  This had been led up to by what historians call "The Church of the Bishops," to distinguish it from what Jesus and the apostles produced.  Being led of the Holy Spirit with every member participating in our gatherings became dominated by citywide leaders who claimed the authority to teach new believers, or even teach authoritatively, as well as to counsel, to baptize, to monitor our partaking of the bread and wine, to marry, and the like.  This was simply other mediators usurping the function of the saints.  Trying to produce a single head of this organization split it into east and west branches, each having their own human authority owing allegiance to either Patriarch or Pope in the mid 200's.

The reason for mentioning this brief view of the emergence of Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Institutions preceded by the Church of the Bishops  is that they were the ones who made and kept the records.  They also suppressed the movement of the Holy Spirit in the organic Church, replacing it with their version of events.  I remember the image of a baby pierced through by a sword held up by a soldier on a gold coin struck by the Vatican in honor of the Pope's armies destroying, who was it, the Montanists were to early and the Lollards too late, maybe the Albinginians or Waldensians?  Their crime?  They were prophesying.  The sick were miraculously healed.  They were led by lights on their path.  Early on, for reasons we can only imagine, Institutional Christianity began their ongoing systematic destruction of the handwritten copies of Scripture in the languages of the people.  (They still get their triumph of sorts by the lineage of the text underlying our modern translations not being that revered through the centuries in the vernacular versions.  We still have the King James though.  It could be improved; but, those who revise it are too often motivated by money, and, at any rate, impose their additional doctrinal bias's under Westcott's spell.  The oldest fragment of the N. T yet discovered, the Magdalen Papyrus, 60 AD, proves the KJV is correct and NASB, NIV, CEV, NRSV are wrong.)  I'll admit that the story could be told with another bias, showing Christendom in a more favorable light.  However, that's another story.

The point I was tying to make is that the working of the Holy Spirit in His people across the centuries is a reality.  It is the histories that aren't so reliable.  The usual presentation of those murdered by the Nazis is 6 Million Jews, when there was in reality at least 7 million Christians also killed.  I believe such facts are suppressed because of present efforts against Christians.  I know in my lifetime what the western press represented as millions dead by famine in Bangladesh in the 70's was actually murder of the Christians by Moslems.  This should help remove our assumption that we've somehow outgrown the penchant for rewriting history.

This whole writing is a partial response to the idea that the Church disappeared.  I don't think that idea is very historically informed.  It also is out of touch with what God is doing today in many lives worldwide.  What few accounts trickle down are often dismissed as fantasy, though because of His presence in our lives we know better.  Right now, large institutions presenting themselves as the Church virtually deny any manifestation of the Holy Spirit in spite of millions of people coming to faith in Jesus for whom miracles are their daily bread.  The marvelous working of God in the 20th Century in the USA has almost completely been spurned by the Institutional Church here.   Tongues near the turn of the Century, healings and healing ministries of the 40's and 50's:  this was all largely maligned and rejected until the experiences of so many caused a temporary stir in mainline churches during the 70's Charismatic movement.  Out of that came many independent Charismatic fellowships and mega-churches, usually not much differing from what they came out of except for allowing tongues and healing, sometimes prophecy, but still clergy dominated.  At that time many experienced what should be the normal meeting as His body, a "round table" where all participate, often in the home.  There's a resurgence of this now for many reasons.  Certainly the restoration of apostles and prophets has had some "outside the camp" start in the close of the 20th Century, though still heavily influenced by a pulpit centric model.  It hasn't to my knowledge changed institutional Christianity however.  The Reformation came and went and the Roman Catholic Church is still going strong.  So don't expect to change the institutions.  The majority of Christians worldwide meet in their homes.  They don't have "pastor/priest" leaders.  That is becoming the norm for the majority in the USA too.  It's not the sort of thing that makes the news.  Hopefully this restructuring won't only be slandered as cultic and dangerous.  People resist change.

I hope this helps indicate what's been going on is Babylon and the Bride at the same time.  Many confuse this as one entity, but it's not all just the Church.


---James Rohde

[arcticmonster2003]

Yes, reFORMer, it certainly does help, as I don't know alot of history on these matters, and most research would be the babylon view of things, it is good to get some information from a source other than babylon.

[whyiloveitaly]

reFORMer:
the whole thing kinda' begs the question:

"Was the apostate church thwarting God's plan for the ages, or was it a part of that plan?"

doesn't it?

Brian

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

You know, the funny thing is that when I get involved in certain conversations with people, and they tell me I am being used by worldly Spirits, I often wonder if thats my calling. To be some kind of bad clay in Gods hands. I tell him I would rather be dead. I recall one group I used to communicate with, and they told me they think I am being used by God to " Try the Church." Do you know what thats like, to look into the mirror, and not know your calling. Your purpose. You drag on into the next day and hope for change.

Well, you would of course be right to tell someone whom says it is your purpose on earth to "Try the Church", or may I be more specific "Try godly men", as some distinctions were made earlier by reFORMer between the bride and babylon - anyway you would be right to tell those whom say it is your purpose to be our trial to get lost, this is not to say that you might not have found yourself trying godly men at times, but for anyone to imply this is your purpose in life is just not right.

We know that trying those whom have faith in God falls into the hands of the ungodly, and no person should try and tell someone whom is seeking God that this is their lot for life.

Not sure if you have read much of the Apocrypha, but it lays out what the ungodly do pretty plainly for us, especially pertaining to the persecution of godly people:

Please note that all the following verses are must be read in context to the opening verse Wisdom 2:1 - that is that the following are the thoughts of ungodly men, and thus a good reference for us of things not to do and a good reference to test our thoughts against, making sure are thoughts are not similiar. And of course, we must always consider discernment and make a distinction between those whom are wolves and sheep, because the wolves are not godly and should not be counted as such, despite their lies, actually, the wolves regard the sheep in much the same way written below.

Wis 2:1  For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave.
Wis 2:2  For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart:
Wis 2:3  Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air,
Wis 2:4  And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof.
Wis 2:5  For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again.
Wis 2:6  Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth.
Wis 2:7  Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:
Wis 2:8  Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered:
Wis 2:9  Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this.
Wis 2:10  Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged.
Wis 2:11  Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth.
Wis 2:12  Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
Wis 2:13  He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord.
Wis 2:14  He was made to reprove our thoughts.
Wis 2:15  He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion.
Wis 2:16  We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father.
Wis 2:17  Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him.
Wis 2:18  For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.
Wis 2:19  Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience.
Wis 2:20  Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected.

[whyiloveitaly]

Mickiel:
Personally, I like the input you give on this forum. You're direct and you speak what's in your heart, and I think that's a blessing from the Lord. Many people who claim to be Christians don't know what's in their heart. (I hope I am not that way myself..!)

You are not afraid to look for the truth wherever it may be found. Again, many Christians don't know how to look for truth, even if it hit them on the head. (Again, I hope I am not that way myself, and I have to keep a constant lookout!!!!)

It would seem that man's nature likes to categorize people. But God looks on the heart, because He knows that it's more complicated than that..

Bri

[Mickiel]

Mickiel:
Personally, I like the input you give on this forum. You're direct and you speak what's in your heart, and I think that's a blessing from the Lord. Many people who claim to be Christians don't know what's in their heart. (I hope I am not that way myself..!)

You are not afraid to look for the truth wherever it may be found. Again, many Christians don't know how to look for truth, even if it hit them on the head. (Again, I hope I am not that way myself, and I have to keep a constant lookout!!!!)

It would seem that man's nature likes to categorize people. But God looks on the heart, because He knows that it's more complicated than that..

Bri

Well thank you for saying this. You know, I don't contend with others as long as I used to in conversation, I seem to tire of it quicker than I used to, but I will do it for a time. I think if I sense the person is interested, I will continue longer. But yes, some subjects are hot topics, that people hold deep feelings over.

My sense of the history of the church, comes from the bible. Not articles, not opinion, not assumption, as do my views on any biblical or Spiritual topic. The Church of God began in the Middle East and I think Jesus will return to Earth in that same Area. I think that he will raise up his prominent Leaders of the future from that area, and I think the end time events will focus on that area. It is difficult to tell an American this, because they view themselves as Gods focal point, I disagree with that. I believe when God calls out his church, it will be from people all over the globe, yes, but it will still center in that area, which is important to God, maybe not to others, but to God.

So I think the true history of the Church, is still in that area, still planted there, still focused there, it didnot " Move to America", only to shift back over there later, that makes no sense to me. No, Americans covet the truth, so certain leaders have taught that the church moved here, when anglo saxons moved here, as if those people were the focus of the truth. The Arab world is the heart of Gods dealings on earth, but some think that has changed. I don't think it has changed or will change, because I am not caught up in trying to manipulate God. I think God hid his church, as he did his truth, covered it up, and let it stay like that for years.

When God opens up people in that area of the world, those people will be from a linage of impressive history, and they will really be persecuted when they teach the truth. But I think they will be quite impressive.

If anything, I believe as the truth traveled to America, it got more perverted and distorted. I think America has worked over the truth more deadly than any nation, and thus is a major part of Gods plan of distortion and keeping the truth from comming out, or the church, one could say. Of course Americans view this conversely, they think themselves  as the heart of Gods truth and church. And I think that pride will be broken.

Let me say this about God also, he gives the person a " Sense of that brokeness comming" too. I think American views of the truth, the Church, and all things concerning this, is destined to be broken. So those who infiltrate Gods calling, will never enjoy a whole heart, somethingelse will burn within them also, and the first will be last, the ones who put themselves first in the line, will just have to be last. Those Americans God will call out, will know this, and will hold a humility that does not look to create " American Influence" to the end times. But I do believe those Americans called, will be quite something themselves, because when God pulls someone out of distortion, they are unique individuals and will hold a very strong inner quality, which comming from slavery can produce.

I am thinking of beginning to look more into personal study of Gods endtime " Two Witnesses", because I don't know anything about them. They seem to be two very powerful humans used by God, and they are killed in the Middle East, and are ressurected. And then the end comes. But this is a mystery to me, I don't even know if its true, but I am trying to understand it. It intrest me.

Anyhow, thank you for your comment.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

Mickiel:
Maybe they should start putting up billboards on the highways that read: "Jesus wasn't American." Living here in Italy, I see how much Italians are aware of what's going on in other countries. They have an interest in "the other."
Americans, by far, don't know or care about the rest of the world. Just look at any major newspaper--very few pages are dedicated to international news. I think there is a demographic element to it. America is far from most of the rest of the world. It's like keeping your head in the sand.

I can share with you some comments my grandpa mentioned several times in his last few years on this globe, regarding the two witnesses:

he said that they are the Word and the Spirit, which will be manifested within a company of people. (This is very similar with what you mentioned in your last post, I believe.) This company of people will be martyred for their witness (martyring is the highest calling we can hope for) and their bodies will not be buried because the world will want to see if they arise or not (which, or course, they will).

I'm not sure, but it may be that this company of people will come out of the Jewish nation.

Love to all,
Brian

[Mickiel]

Well I think thats possible, but I believe they will be middle eastern. Interesting what your Father believed. And yes that billboard wouldnot last a week in America, Jesus was not American and he was not White, two things many are not comfortable with. And he was not a Universalist by religion, he was by his gift of Salvation and Eternity. Just because a person is a Universalist, does not mean that know the Truth. But many White American men have sought to trace the truth, but they try to keep it American, which is useless effort in my view.

I consider the effort to claim the Kingdom of God is now within, along these same lines. Trust me, if the Kingdom of God was anything like the people who now claim it, it would be contaminated already.
 Few people realize how dead they are, until they come out of the graveyard of their beliefs.

I think the Truth has not been opened on the earth in its fullness, nor any other gift of God. If the Kingdom of God was on Earth, or within people, that fullness would also be.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

Mickiel:
I think what you're expecting (a fullness of the Spirit) is Tabernacles. That is the company of witnesses that the world will put to death.

I can believe in the Kingdom of God within because of my own experiences. And there is a lot of imperfection, or mixture, of Spirit and flesh. That mixture is what you see, and I see it, too. The wind blows a bit, but then stops again. We are in Pentecost right now (mixture).

I, too, want to see Tabernacles (unleavened, like the Passover). I want to see the greater works that Jesus said that we would do.
The more I read on this forum, the more I am convinced that suffering is the life of the believer. I don't know what kinds of suffering there are, but I suppose that any suffering that puts the flesh in place is adequate.

It's a far cry from the big name ministries with their "name it and claim it" or "wealth and prosperity" doctrines.  I have a hunch that the most spiritual of us are those who are suffering the most. -Maybe from the suffering comes gifts of the Spirit, like healing?

Brian

[Mickiel]

Mickiel:
I think what you're expecting (a fullness of the Spirit) is Tabernacles. Brian

Well I think I do see the Holy Spirit different than most. I do believe a person can grow in grace, grow in Knowledge, grow in wisdom, grow in their gifts, but I do not view the Holy Spirit as something that " Grows within you", as if God will give a small portion of it, then it grows. No, I see it as something he plants within you, already full. What people are calling a " Down Payment" of the Spirit, I believe is the pressence of the Spirit, influencing their awareness. But they take that to mean they have it in them already.

In Col.1:19;"For it was the Fathers good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him." This was the human condition of Jesus, and its why he didNOT sin. Its why Job didnot sin, its why if a human had it now, they either wouldnot sin, or very rarely sin. But I think that would be up to God, if God wanted to, he could condition human flesh, with Gods Spirit, not to sin, but he only rarely did this. Just as I think he rarely allows human flesh, with his Spirit, to live and sin.

In properly understanding Jesus power, its simular to trying to understand the Holy Spirit. Christ is exalted as the head of the church, he holds the potential to fill each called member of it with literally " Everything", in its fullness, all at once, Eph.1:23. But instead of the Spirit itself, I believe he is dispensating gifts that come from HIS Spirit, NOT ours. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, are just that, gifts FROM the Holy Spirit itself, not from the Spirit being in you.

I believe the condition of the people now, is a result of NOT having these gifts, not having them and just making mistakes while living a Spirit filled life. I would say examine Christ, but thats a bit much, but if you study the life of Job, every person who God gives his Spirit to in the last days, hold the potential to be just as sinless as Job. Just as Spiritually great as the man was, and they WILL be like this, in my view. Which is WHY they will be like a city that cannot be hidden, they will stand out, not " Blend in with the neighborhood", or totally become unoticed. And being able to reach this standard, is the actual " Hope" that is developed by the calling of God, you hope for the calling. You hope to one day be like this.

The oppisite of that, is to live as if you already have it all. And I think that stance inverts the knowledge of the bible. Instead of your understanding growing outward, it grows inward. An inward look at the bible, introverts the bible in many ways, as would living your life introverted would limit many things you could have enjoyed if you were outgoing.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Let me give a short overview of how I believe God will give  his Spirit, when he does. In the 2nd chapter of Acts, it explains many things. In observation I see this: God gave his Spirit in a " New Manner", never done before. He gave it to a whole group of people at the same time. Not one at a time, but them all. I don't think God will change from this, I think if anything, he will do greater than this, such is Gods pattern.

The people Immediately had power, unheard up power, they each could understand different languages. This is not human ability, nor self manufactored evidence of the Spirit. I could no more understand another language instantly, than I could ressurect myself from death.

But God states something in vs.17;" I will pour forth my Spirit upon ALL mankind, in the last days." As there were residents from Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Libya, Egypt, Cyrene , Rome, both Jews and Arabs, all present during this mass giving of the Holy Spirit, I believe Gods giving of his Spirit during these times will be at least the same as this, or greater, NOT individualistic, as some have believed.

When God does this in the last days, he will do it to BOTH male and female, vs. 18. Prophets will be made immediately, vs.17. Evidence of great power will be made KNOWN TO ALL, vs.19-21. EVERYONE who believes what these people preach and teach, will be saved, vs.21.

This is the senerio that results from God giving his Spirit to a group of people.

There is NO senerio that I see that even comes close to this occuring now.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

I am often blessed by what is shared by people with whom I'm not in complete agreement.  Actually, if that wasn't the case, who could ever be blessed by another, seeing how different everybody is from everybody else?  I can get too mentally picky and betray my welcoming heart.  Don't forget, Mickiel, I complimented your beginning posts.  I found them to be very creatively stimulating.  I saw someone thinking about the things of God for a change, not just parroting the party line.  I hope you get something from what I labor to write.  I experience more and more the glory of God at hand.  To say that is only a kind of shorthand of what is happening.  One related thing is I wish I had the time and this was the place to tell you of the angel feather that was physically in my room.

-------------------------

The people Immediately had power, unheard up power, they each could understand different languages. This is not human ability, nor self manufactored evidence of the Spirit. I could no more understand another language instantly, than I could ressurect myself from death.

While, "With God, all thing are possible," the Biblical record of The Day of Pentecost does not indicate the miracle was in the hearers but the tellers.  "They spoke with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Ac 2⁴)  As you indicated, listing a number of the nations of those present, those used various languages and understood the 120, who were only Galileans (Ac 2⁷) to be speaking in their native tongues.  And it says, "...they were all amazed and marvelled..." (Ac 2⁷)  Part of your quote follows:

But God states something in vs.17;" I will pour forth my Spirit upon ALL mankind, in the last days." As there were residents from Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Libya, Egypt, Cyrene , Rome, both Jews and Arabs, all present

----------------------
What you expect the "true" outpouring of the Holy Spirit to do you say will be:

Prophets will be made immediately, vs.17.

That's a stretch!  Many would like instantaneous "man of God" status rather than a lifetime of development by daily denial of self and taking up the cross to follow Jesus.  Already anointed to be king, when Saul came among the School of the prophets he demonstrated an immediate prophetic gift; but, he didn't stay that way.  Normally it is a development as we mature in the Image and Likeness of God.  When the Holy Spirit resides within, all that Jesus is and does is in us, but as an available potential.  It is a matter of maturing that makes it possible for the character and behaviour of Jesus to become our own, individually and corporately.  Part of what's so horrible about the liturgical or Reformation meeting structure is it is neither expected that, "Every disciple when he's finished will be like his master," (Lk 6⁴⁰) nor is there opportunity to exercise toward fulfilling that goal when we are together.  The next time you're in one of Institutional Christianity's Sunday morning "Services," just try obeying the command to exhort or, "...entreat YOURSELVES..." (Heb 3¹³) at about 11:30 AM and you'll find out soon enough what else the ushers are there for!  The church is not on the program!

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EVERYONE who believes what these people preach and teach, will be saved, vs.21.

This can be disasterous.  Those who believe and obey the Truth will be saved.  To expect elite representatives, specially constituted of God to give us the real thing, the true interpretation, who'll stand as mediators with Divinely ordained demonstration and heaven sent words for our obedience is a recipe for deception.  "There shall no strange God be in you." (Ps 81⁹)  God will arise within us, the JEALOUS husband in Zion his chosen place of rest forever. (cp., Ps 132^13-14)  I don't care how knowledgable or gifted the man on stage is.  He's not the body of Christ; and, JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

There is NO scenerio that I see that even comes close to this occuring now.

Neither what you were describing nor what I'm indicating seems to be the order of the day.  Some things are not seen because we're looking in the wrong places.  But some things are hidden until the time.  Jesus was no less what He was while in their midst before His manifestation to Israel.  It wasn't until when "the fullness of time had come" for Him at about the age of 30 that he began to go about preaching the immediacy of the reign of God and demonstrating it by healing the sick.

[Mickiel]

I am often blessed by what is shared by people with whom I'm not in complete agreement.  Actually, if that wasn't the case, who could ever be blessed by another, seeing how different everybody is from everybody else?  I can get too mentally picky and betray my welcoming heart.  Don't forget, Mickiel, I complimented your beginning posts.  I found them to be very creatively stimulating. 

Well I thank you for that, and I do not fish for agreement, or for arguement. Me personally, I don't think that good fruit can come from a bad tree. My mailbox receives a vist every now and then from a few who tell me I have helped them understand a little better. I received one just this week from a woman here at Tentmaker, who seemed inspired by a few things. The woman was 76 years old, and I get inspiration from things like that. I know I am a sinner, in desperate need of Gods Spirit influence, so why should I spend my time trying to confuse people, muchless a 76 year old woman? But the woman understood taking a strong stand in what you believe, inspite of the popular oppisition.


Jesus in Matt.24:36-51, for the comming of the son of man will be like the days of Noah. People will be going about their daily lives. Some will think Christ is not comming, others will believe he has already come and that he is now within them. There will exist all kinds of behavior and beliefs. In vs. 45 Jesus laments;"Who then is the Faithful and " Sensible" slave whom his master put in charge of his home to give them their food at a " Proper" time?"

I live to make sense of these things of God, there is no other dominant reason I can see that we are alive. Spiritual things just have to make sense, not just spiritual sounds comming from our mouths, or flowing through our minds. So I will spend my days making sense, and discerning things in their proper time, and those in my house are being fed that. These are things each of us just have to do.

In chapter 25 Jesus just outright compares the Kingdom of Heaven to something that will come all at once and examined the reaction of the  virgins who took their lamps to meet the bridegroom. In vs. 3 the foolish took their lamps , but had no oil in them. They had no power source to help them see. They thought they had the oil, or the Holy Spirit, but they didnot. They believed the oil was already come, already within. But Jesus said in vs.13, " You do not know the day or the hour", the day and hour of what? The Kingdom comming to earth. People claiming the Kingdom is now within literally destroy this principle.

But thats the food they feed their house.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

Mickiel and reFORMer:
Personally, I believe that BOTH of you are right! In fact, it seems that you do not contradict each other at all!

It's like saying, "okay, God can influence us/touch us personally with His Spirit; however, at times, there are BIG moves of God's Spirit that no one can deny nor resist."

(I personally believe that there will be a BIG move of God in the future. That's why I put out the question on another thread, "what would you think if you turned on the TV one night and heard news of people going around and healing and raising the dead?" --It would seem that Christendom today by and large doesn't hold to any such hope! They just want to be raptured away! (Although a few in UR seem to be open to it..))

Bri

[Mickiel]

Mickiel and reFORMer:
Personally, I believe that BOTH of you are right! In fact, it seems that you do not contradict each other at all!

Well yes, I think truth is being spread. In paying close attention to Jesus in Luke 22:18;" For I say unto you, I willnot drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the Kingdom Comes." Well some just feel that Jesus is drinking it now, because they claim the Kingdom is already come within them. I simply doubt that is true. Nothing personal against them, but its just what I read.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Mickiel


Well yes, I think truth is being spread. In paying close attention to Jesus in Luke 22:18;" For I say unto you, I willnot drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the Kingdom Comes." Well some just feel that Jesus is drinking it now, because they claim the Kingdom is already come within them. I simply doubt that is true. Nothing personal against them, but its just what I read.

Peace.
[/quote]


The bibles reference to the Kingdom of God, are literal to me. In Luke 22:29, again Jesus;" And just as my father has granted me a Kingdom, I grant you." Now some may think that here Jesus is refering to a " Spiritual" issue, but he is not. He is refering to a Geographic location which includes a government structure. And he will give this to his people. He was granted a specific thing that is going to be a literal Kingdom. It will have a palace, a building, gates around the buliding, and rivers flowing through it. Those things cannot be within people, the people will be in it.

I often think to myself that the repentant thief had more insight than the believers of the truth. In Luke 23:42, he ask Christ;" Remember me when you come " In" your Kingdom." Its like he sensed the Kingdom of God was like a ship that will travel back to the earth. Jesus response to him is perhaps better rendered, I say to you this day, that you will be with me in my Kingdom. The thief knew that the Kingdom was comming " With Christ", and will land on the earth.

I do believe that the residents of the Kingdom, are a part of it, such is clear in 1Corinth.15:24 where Christ is said to " Deliver up the Kingdom to the Father." I think people are defintely a part of that deliverance. But they are " Delivered to a Place", and that place IS the kingdom. Daniel 2:44 makes that clear. And that " Place" shall never be destroyed.

If you look at Daniel 7:14, this again is made clear. Jesus was GIVEN a Kingdom, a Dominion. He ALREADY had the Holy Spirit before this was given, so the Kingdom of God is not the Holy Spirit within. A dominion is government over a territory. And I would like to announce the simple definition of a Kingdom, it means a " Territory", a realm or a country. In trying to relate to others who believe the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual thing, I view it as them believing the territory that God and Christ are literally building now, is spiritually being built within them. And I think thats what the bible means by taking the Kingdom by violence, you bring down into yourself, what is stored up in heaven for you. And thats stealing by any definition, and its violent to take something from heaven.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

Mickiel:
Your perspective on the Kingdom on earth is interesting. 

I have a hunch that it will be religious Christendom which will put the two witnesses to death.
The flesh has always been against the Spirit. Power is what the religious want, and they want it for themselves. And anytime someone comes along with a spiritual power that they don't have, they get anxious because the world will follow after that power. They (the religious) realize that they could lose their 'kingdom' and control (and wealth), and kill those with the Spirit.

I would need to hear more about your perspective in order to be truly convinced. Quite honestly, I can imagine "a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness," but I have never given much thought to an earthly kingdom. The reason is because Jesus says to put up treasures where they cannot be corrupted, and where the theif cannot break in and steal.

To me, the religious would, yes, like to steal the Kingdom. Yet they cannot steal it because because they don't even know where it is. And most of Christendom today is not letting people enter the Kingdom because they don't want them to. They prefer to keep the people in ignorance (no power) and under their control.

The beauty of the Kingdom within us is that no one can take that from you. It's a Kingdom that doesn't need light because God Himself is that light.

I say this not because someone told me to say it. Many times I've been asked to join a church, but I don't want to join any group. Fellowship (like we are doing now), okay. But Christendom is mostly for the dead, not the living.

Today I feel Jesus dwelling in me. And to me, that IS the Kingdom. It's not just for me, it's for everyone.

But Christendom that wants to hoard it for themselves.

And if you have this witness in you too, then I rejoice with you. I do not consider you "my property," as Christendom would like to do.

I don't know where I'm going with this..again....

Love to all,
Bri