Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on awareness.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

I do not seek to destroy, I simply post what I believe, like anyoneslse does. I believe what I post, they are not attacks, they are not efforts to deal harsh blows, they are what I see as the truth.

If that truth hurts you or anyonelse, then it is not me who supplies their weak faith, let God deal with their faith if it is destroyed. What kind of faith was it if one like me can destroy it anyway?  No, your just shaken by something, I wonder what it is?

For those whom know that all things are spiritual Mickiel, that spirit of the world is really making itself known today here at this forum.

[Mickiel]

quote Mickiel

I do not seek to destroy, I simply post what I believe, like anyoneslse does. I believe what I post, they are not attacks, they are not efforts to deal harsh blows, they are what I see as the truth.

If that truth hurts you or anyonelse, then it is not me who supplies their weak faith, let God deal with their faith if it is destroyed. What kind of faith was it if one like me can destroy it anyway?  No, your just shaken by something, I wonder what it is?

For those whom know that all things are spiritual Mickiel, that spirit of the world is really making itself known today here at this forum.

Well let me help you fight that Spirit.

I am not associated with Tentmaker in any way whatsoever. I am not a part of this place, and no one here. My views are my own.

I hope this helps the " Children" you claim concern for.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

Well, I love both of you! How's that?

Brian

[Mickiel]

Well, I love both of you! How's that?

Brian

Well I love you back.

Listen, let me explain something to you. I bring meat to the table to share, and those who don't want to eat it, such is their right. I don't bring it to cause others to choke, I bring it because its what I am eating. What I share at Tentmaker, I don't hardly share anywherelse, because I believe those here are able to at least chew on it. If I didnot think so, then I wouldnot just toss anything out, as if it was garbagge.

I was hungry for the Truth some years ago, and I was led here, and found Meat. Long before you got here, I was here, and I needed that Meat, because I was gasping and throwing up the milk, because the milk was spoiled. At the time , I didn't know it was spoiled, I just knew something was wrong with what I was digesting in this worlds system of knowledge.

So I began to consume and to learn. That process has not stopped. When I come here to share, I bring Meat to share, NOT with intentions to hurt others, or change their beliefs, I am only sharing. If a person brings something to the table that you don't like, or don't agree with, then don't partake of it. But don't accuse them of trying to " Choke Children", because they bring Meat.

The choking I have experienced was good for me, because it teachs me several things. To examine more closely what I eat, and to know the condition I am in, to be choking in the first place.

I don't make excuses for myself, I am real an forthcomming about who I am. I tell people all the time, I am not converted, not Christian, and do not have Gods Spirit. If I was trying to lead people away from God or the Truth, why , in the name of common sense, would I tell them those things about myself? If I was on a crusade to " Fill this place with a worldly Spirit", good greif, I could think of better wats to accomplish that, than by putting myself down.

I really believe everything I write, I am not playing with anyone here. I believe God has not rained down his Spirit on people, but also believe he may have " Sprinkled it some." I believe God created humans before Adam, but last year I didnot totally believe that. And the year before I didnot believe it at all. And I don't know what next year will bring. I believe that the human remains that have been found, are not elaborate fabrications or imitations, they are humans. So I knew something was not " Adding up" right with this time table of creation, as opposed to our interpitation of it. I was led to see other possibilitys, and I accept the one of God creating humans who had no consciousness. They were human, but not created in Gods Image and Likeness.

When God said " Let us Create Man in OUR Likeness", that leaves room for humans to have already been created, but just not in Gods Image. And it EXPLIANS the existence of what archaeology keeps finding. And it opens more truth to me, it does not repulse me or frighten me.

And I apoligise if it has done that to you.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

Let me say somethingelse concerning this. There are all kinds of topics on this board everyday. I read most all of them, and comment on those which intrest me. Some post I agree with, many I don't. I don't go around this board trying to find things I disagree with, chasing people and branding them things, just because of my disagreement. Its a discussion board, its a table to feast on , holding all types of food. If I think the food is junk, I simply don't eat it. Whoever placed it on the table, does not matter to me, the food is just not for me.

You think if I had Gods Holy Spirit, and some joker told me that I didnot, that I would care? If I had Gods Spirit, I couldcareless what anybody thought about it. But you have to believe in what it is your believing.

Listen, I don't know God, but I know some things about him. One thing I know for sure, is that he don't look too kindly on people who intentionally mislead his people, or ANY peoples. Some people are just going to have to come off of this aittitude of " We all should see things the same way." I don't know where that has come from, but it sure is not true. Did you know that God will intentionally teach different things to different people, no matter even if they have the same Spirit. Peter and Paul had the same Spirit teaching them, but they disagreed on things. When John was taken in the Spirit to be taught Revelations, he was not shown what the other disciples and Apostles were shown. It was a whole new deal. Paul was shown things that no onelse was shown, and the people had trouble believing him. I personally wouldnot have listened to Paul at that time. Here you have a joker who was killing the believers one week, and then being called of God the next. Its no way I would have trusted Paul, not me. It would have took me some time to get into Paul, and I am sure thats WHY some brothers had problems believing him.


Anyhow, I am not saying these things to get people to listen to me, but only to understand that disagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

Mickiel, I understand you do not believe any person has yet obtained the Holy Spirit, because you have not witnessed great works from those same or that you are just not seeing what you expect to see from Spirit filled individuals. Did you ever think about this one - all the epistles were written to people whom were acknowledged to have received the Holy Spirit, as a pledge, and yet they struggled, sinned, were always fighting, sueing each other and such, they did not have the same power and authority that was seen in deed in the apostles, whom were walking more closely to the will of God, and yet it is the apostles whom told us those babes did indeed have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge - for the hope of what is yet to come. Just because one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean they are completely walking in Spirit, doing only the will of God, and it does not mean that God yet intends great works (of his) to yet be accomplished through those whom are not yet tried, refined and perfected - It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that believers are converted, it is that which speaks truth to the unbelievers, imparting spiritual truth, so they know that it is the truth - The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge, and this initial pledge is what you seem to be confusing with the perfected man. IMO.

[Mickiel]

Mickiel, I understand you do not believe any person has yet obtained the Holy Spirit, because you have not witnessed great works from those same or that you are just not seeing what you expect to see from Spirit filled individuals. Did you ever think about this one - all the epistles were written to people whom were acknowledged to have received the Holy Spirit, as a pledge, and yet they struggled, sinned, were always fighting, sueing each other and such, they did not have the same power and authority that was seen in deed in the apostles, whom were walking more closely to the will of God, and yet it is the apostles whom told us those babes did indeed have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge - for the hope of what is yet to come. Just because one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean they are completely walking in Spirit, doing only the will of God, and it does not mean that God yet intends great works (of his) to yet be accomplished through those whom are not yet tried, refined and perfected - It is through the power of the Holy Spirit that believers are converted, it is that which speaks truth to the unbelievers, imparting spiritual truth, so they know that it is the truth - The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge, and this initial pledge is what you seem to be confusing with the perfected man. IMO.

Well yes, I have considered that. And seriously considered it. Of course we know that I cannot just judge every person on earth and believe what I do from that Judgement. That would be callous of me, yes. I am judging the Holy Spirit itself, what I know and understand its power to be, and I don't think I am overating it, if anything, I am underestimating it. Based on the Scripture, I don't see a Holy Spirit movement, and I firmly believe that such a movement would be like a great Light on earth, it CANNOT be Hidden. It cannot be declassified, or given a type of Hiding place, its going to stand out. So much so, that God will have to later hide them.

Now, I do believe that God is " With Many", that the Spirit is with them, working with them, guiding and leading them, influencing them, but I am not convinced that it is " In" them. Now granted, thats just me, my view, how I am impressed by this. Could I be wrong, oh goodness, yes. I don't doubt that for one second. I just don't believe " Totally" that the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, as far as being totally placed into individuals, has begun as of yet. Because when it does, I expect to see some amazing things comming out of people, and some real Spiritual change. Some power, some gifts, and these things at their fullest. I believe this.

And listen, you know good and well, just because I believe this, does not make me some kind of nut , spreading worldly things that deteriate others. I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I think we underate what it will do to a person. That is how I know I don't have it. Look at how I have spoken to you. I could have had more Love, I didnot, more Patience, I didnot, more trying to understand you, I didnot. If I had Gods Spirit, oh good greif, those things would have been simple for me to do. They are not easy for me, because I lack those fruits. And I think thats why we struggle so much, strive so much.

Peace.

[whyiloveitaly]

disagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.

Oh, that Christendom could understand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian

[Mickiel]

disagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.

Oh, that Christendom could understand this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brian

Well yes, but I suggest that understanding shouldnot be " A competition", where Gods knowledge is concerned. A thing like, who knows what and why they know it or not. You may wonder why Christendom does not seem to be aware of something that you are, conversely they may feel the same about you. And it turns into a battleground, and when believers war, who really wins? The stage may be set, and the future reveals that both sides were wrong about the particular, in such a case, satan can be declared the winner, and he licks his chops as we shake our heads in discuss and shame. Failing to study to show ourselves as moving into areas of confidence where we move beyond shame, we rely on the Holy Spirit to compensate for their lack, as if we hold none ourselves. Then we act as if the Spirit should support us, because of who we think we are.

Let me say this about Christiandom, or any believers that one may think is misguided by inncorrect knowledge. There is a principal, indeed a standard, which I think is often more effective than knowledge. In 1Pet. 3:1;" In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives." Vs.2; " As they observe YOUR chaste and respectful behavior."

The principle here is one of " Convincing by Conduct", not by the bible or our mouths. I believe when the Holy Spirit enters, the Fruits of it will exit, or come out of the person, through mostly their behavior. Its what comes out of a person that deceives them, AND others. Conversely, when the Fruits of the Spirit are comming out of a person, explain to yourself, or ask yourself, how could that possibly deceive? The chase conduct, or the results of the Spirit within, will overshadow all deception, and rule any moment, any situation.

I believe we fail to do this in our conduct, because its not chase. Notice Phil.4:23;" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be " With Your Spirit." This is where I think the true followers of Christ are, his Spirit is " With their Spirit", and that leaves so much room for our Spirit to do what we do, and do it wrong so many times. But listen, when our Spirit, IS his Spirit, oh my goodness, even Christiandom will be effected by our behavior, muchless our words.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

Anyhow, I am not saying these things to get people to listen to me, but only to understand that disagreement, is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil.

I am glad that you also do not see these things in black and white, but that there are some grey areas, when you say that disagreement is not always a sign that someone is a devil or something evil you are of course correct, and the key words there are "not always", as sometimes these disagreements do indeed produce evil or are evil in nature and spirit.

quote Mickiel

let God deal with their faith if it is destroyed

God will deal with his believers, and we already know that there are many trials and temptations, sufferings and falls. But I would not want to be the source of one's fall, and if brought to my attention that I was hurting the faith in God, or their faith in the core fundamentals of the Gospel (without the indwelling Holy Spirit their is no Gospel) of believers then I would perk up and take notice of my actions and words, and examine thouroughly where I was standing before God.
Matthew 18:7  Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Jesus Christ is the Son of the Eternal Father - he is King of King, and Lord of Lords - he gives every believer the pledge of the Holy Spirit for the hope of things to come, to guide them unto perfection.

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You would be correct that as of yet not many have been redeemed - but all believers have an inheritance and all are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance.

Main Entry: earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabōn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew ʽērābhōn pledge
Date: 13th century
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : pledge


It seems you are still having trouble differentiating the pledge believers are given and the Holy Spirit in its full power which we would not even, in the flesh, be able to stand before, it is the very fire of God.



Mickiel, do you not know that those whom cast off their first faith shall receive much damnation, and a hot fire - though God shall make them stand again - yet still after some judgement. I guess the question is, do you want to be the man through whom the spirit of the world may cause offence and cause some people to fall, and thus cause them a painful ordeal. Remember, without the indwelling Holy Spirit, there is not Gospel as of yet, and as reFORMer said, this is reducing Jesus Christ to just a philosopher whom has students.

[reFORMer]

Mickiel,

Apart from what seems to me to be vague theories and inferences surrounding your clear cut hard positions, like:  The Reign of God is future, none (?) has the Holy Spirit, none is "born again" (until the whole person, body soul and spirit, is born into immortality, by which I assume you (?) mean born in body salvation, resurrection or physical (?) immortality) ---which discussions should probably be put on some other thread (along with books we'd probably like to share)---

The thread here had entered a very important and popularly neglected area concerning salvation being based on what God knows even if we are unaware.  That properly understood should bring acknowledgment of the presence of the Holy Spirit working even if we're not tracking it with our thoughts, all the more so with "spirit" so little understood and God so different.  It doesn't follow that our condition has to remain in the same ignorance, as also indicates, "...who knew the mind of the Lord?  Who will be deducing Him?  Yet we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor 216)   Here again is something that on one hand seems to have little evidence supporting it; that, "Now we have the mind of Christ."  On the other hand, we might better understand what that is like as well as to apply ourselves to remedy our involvement with everything else then using that as evidence "we 'can't' have the mind of Christ."   If some think it is impossible that they can receive or be filled with or immersed into the Holy Spirit then it seems most advice on "how to" would be wasted.  It's tempting to monologue that but I think it's someone else's turn.

1 Corinthians 81-3:  "And concerning the things sacrificed to idols, we have known that we all have knowledge: knowledge puffeth up, but love buildeth up; and if any one doth think to know anything, he hath not yet known anything according as it behoveth him to know; and if any one doth love God, this one hath been known by Him."

[Mickiel]

[quote author=arcticmonster2003 link=topic=1761.

Jesus Christ is the Son of the Eternal Father - he is King of King, and Lord of Lords - he gives every believer the pledge of the Holy Spirit for the hope of things to come, to guide them unto perfection.

Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You would be correct that as of yet not many have been redeemed - but all believers have an inheritance and all are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance.

[/quote]


Well again, I understand your view, but I view differently. The " Holy Spirit of Promise", suggest to me that the Holy Spirit is Promised, and its the one who has made that promise, that sealed it. Yet in my view, signed and sealed promise, does not connotate just when it is delivered. The promise is a pledge, you are believing that it is already delivered. So I quess your eyes have been enlightened into that, mine have not. For this confession, you suggest that I may cause offence, have cast off my faith, and may receive much damnation, and a hot fire.

Good greif.

The inheritance has been taken. As for me, I will wait on mine. And for suggesting that we should be more patient, I am treated as if I have stated that we will receive no inheritence.

Will wonders never cease.

Peace.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=reFORMer link=topic=1761.

1 Corinthians 81-3:  "And concerning the things sacrificed to idols, we have known that we all have knowledge: knowledge puffeth up, but love buildeth up; and if any one doth think to know anything, he hath not yet known anything according as it behoveth him to know; and if any one doth love God, this one hath been known by Him."
[/quote]

I don't know God, and have consistantly stated as such. So you go ahead and run your race, I'll be behind you, back here with a cautious pace. My understanding may be meaningless to you, but I already know that mt adaquacy comes from God.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

Mickiel,

I really wanted to ask you this a while back.  Have you spent some (if not a significant) part of your life involved with Roman Catholic instruction?

[Mickiel]

Mickiel,

I really wanted to ask you this a while back.  Have you spent some (if not a significant) part of your life involved with Roman Catholic instruction?

No I have never even been to any kind of Catholic church. I have been alone for the last 10 years, and even when I did used to go to churchs, I never involved myself with their instructions, because I never agreed with them. I only want what influences me, to be between me and God.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

For this confession, you suggest that I may cause offence, have cast off my faith, and may receive much damnation, and a hot fire.

You have misunderstood a bit, I did not intend to suggest that you have cast off your faith, rather the question was, do you want to be the man through whom the spirit of this world harms other peoples faith. I did however intend that the spirit of this world is using you to be a tool to cause offence in regards to our pledge, which you have reduced to nothing more that a pledge of words for spiritual things to come in the future. As far as the pledge goes, we receive a pledge, a small part of the Holy Spirit that now dwells in believers (though many have been filled with the Holy Spirit at times) - the inheritance goes well beyong this, and our pledge is not one of words - but of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Timothy 1:14  That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.



John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


Acts 19:2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Romans 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Romans 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Romans 15:13  Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 6:6  By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

2 Corinthians 13:14  The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

1 Thessalonians 1:6  And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

Hebrews 10:15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,


Jude 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,



Yes, the Holy Ghost is a witness to us, not a witness that is coming in the future, it indwells every believer. It is true that all have not yet been completely filled with the Holy Spirit, but nonetheless it does reside within every believer. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in us.

[Mickiel]

[quote author=arcticmonster2003 li

Yes, the Holy Ghost is a witness to us, not a witness that is coming in the future, it indwells every believer. It is true that all have not yet been completely filled with the Holy Spirit, but nonetheless it does reside within every believer. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in us.


[/quote]



Well all the verses you listed, I believe were being addressed to a church that had already been given the Holy Spirit. And I don't believe God has called out his latterday church as of yet, so I do not view those scriptures as presently applying, like you do. I do not doubt that the Spirits of this world uses me from time to time, I have not grown to a point that I am immune to them. Neither do I doubt that God also uses me from time to time,  so I suffer with this delima. I would like to be able to not be used by the wordly spirits, but I am not given such a fortunate existence. I am sure I have helped, just as many as I have hurt, if I am to believe those who have told me as such, many of whom are here at Tentmaker now. Rather than give you a list of those I have helped, suffice it to say I agree that I am used by the spirits of this world. And I really do not like that, pray for it often, but God has not released me from it as of now.

Yet he has made known to me the the mystery of his will, according to his kind intention, he has blessed my mind with the knowledge of the truth. Me, a sinner, who is used by worldly spirits, and who does not have Gods Holy Spirit. Yet he has opened me to so many things.

So I stand accused by you, and I offer no more struggle, I have had enough of this conversation, and will focus on other things, like praying to be released from the worldly Spirits.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

Well all the verses you listed, I believe were being addressed to a church that had already been given the Holy Spirit.

Exactly, Mickiel, and that church (by definition the Body of Christ) is still in the world, made up, as in those times by those whom believe that God, the Eternal Father sent his son, Jesus Christ to earth, this is not known by the spirit of the world, but is known by believers throught the Holy Spirit indwelling them. At which point or what landmark event do you think caused this church to cease to exist? I mention this because if there is no event which caused this church to cease to exist, then it still does exist. And if you were correct, that is, if this church actually doesn't exist right now, then how is it that there are still those whom believe in he whom was sent, these believers of course being the Body of Christ also know as the church.

1 Corinthians 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I do find it hard to understand that you think all the scripture I listed applied only to the Body of Christ that was on the earth at that time, especially this verse (1 Corinthians 12:3). It would appear to me that this verse would apply to everyone at every time both believers and unbelievers alike.

I understand that you have had enough of this conversation, I just wanted to make that point.

[Mickiel]

quote Mickiel

Well all the verses you listed, I believe were being addressed to a church that had already been given the Holy Spirit.

Exactly, Mickiel, and that church (by definition the Body of Christ) is still in the world, made up, as in those times by those whom believe that God, the Eternal Father sent his son, Jesus Christ to earth, this is not known by the spirit of the world, but is known by believers throught the Holy Spirit indwelling them. At which point or what landmark event do you think caused this church to cease to exist? I mention this because if there is no event which caused this church to cease to exist, then it still does exist. And if you were correct, that is, if this church actually doesn't exist right now, then how is it that there are still those whom believe in he whom was sent, these believers of course being the Body of Christ also know as the church.

I understand that you have had enough of this conversation, I just wanted to make that point.

Well I understand the point, I really do. I disagree with those who teach that Gods church has continued through every human age since Christ. For what reason should God have continued it? I mean why? No, if God dealt with people since Christ, it was individual, I disagree that he has kept a church through every age since Christ. Listen, just because God deals with a humans mind, or more than one human, does not mean he has formed a church. Oh the humans themselves may try to form a church, and may accomplish that, but that does not mean God formed it. The truth is passed down by God, not by people. The church is passed down by God, not by people, and a church is not formulated by knowledge, it is formed by the Holy Spirit.

I speak these things with confidence, taking no reguard to how it is received. I know it is taught that the church of God has been in every age, I disagree with that. People teach that God has had churchs throughout the ages, and they were hidden, or small, or as if they were insignificant. I think that is rash assumption. The church of God CANNOT be hidden, it will hold too much Light. It would have impressed history, as it will in the future. Those who try to fit Gods church into times that it didnot exist, are trying to form Light, where there was none. If 500 years passed on earth without God dealing with anyone Spiritually, what does that  change in his will?

Nothing.

Peace.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

For what reason should God have continued it? I mean why?

This type of reasoning is not understood by me, it falls somewhere along the lines of "why did he should he have even started in the first place"

I can see, by how you are writing about "the Church" that you and I have very different ideas for what the Church is. I see "the Church" as the word to describe the whole Body of Christ, the Body of Christ is made up of believers, that means every single believer, even if they have never met nor talked, nor congregated.

quote Mickiel

I disagree that he has kept a church through every age since Christ.

As there have been believers through every age, how can we say that there has not been believers through every age and present. (remember, the Church is just a word to describe the Body of Christ, also known as believers)

quote Mickiel

Oh the humans themselves may try to form a church, and may accomplish that, but that does not mean God formed it.

True enough, if you use the definition of a church as a building in which a leader decides he wants some followers to submit to him. As this is not my definition of the Church, this does not apply to the Church of which I speak.

quote Mickiel

The church of God CANNOT be hidden, it will hold too much Light.

Hidden? Who has not heard of the believers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

quote Mickiel

If 500 years passed on earth without God dealing with anyone Spiritually, what does that  change in his will?

Nothing, but the witnesses that this has not been the case are numerous both past and present that the Holy Spirit is indeed in us. There are many witnesses (billions) to this and also many witnesses of people whom have been "completely" filled with the Holy Spirit, witnesses, many many of them, both past and present. Why is it that you do not believe them?

quote Mickiel

Those who try to fit Gods church into times that it didnot exist, are trying to form Light, where there was none.

I shall say again, the Church is the word for the Body of Christ, which is made up of every believer. If there were no believers then you would have a valid argument, but as there are billions, it leaves me scratching my head.

1 Corinthians 12:3  Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

[Mickiel]

Well There is a way to define the true church of God, and it is the way that I evaluate its pressence. This may not please those who usurp the Kingdom, because their individual visions of themselves are self magnified. Jesus in John 10:37-38;" If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me, but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may understand."

Who did Gods work after Jesus left? What kind of job did they do? Were they called to save this world, or to just pass down truth information to those who are like you? Or to bear witness of things beyond their control. You know your world is one that I avoid, God be praised, this is why I walk alone. I do not want to be influenced by these estimates of God. I prefer to be outside of these things.

Paul in Gal. 6:15;" For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision anything, but a new creation." This is the new exulation of the new life. It does not matter how much the desire of people who claim God to be in them is proclaimed, they do not have a new life, they still have the same life. They may hold a differing outlook, but they are not a new creation. They are still human. Still flesh, and nothing can change that, except the new birth.

Peace.

[reFORMer]

I was working on an answer to deal in greater detail with your futuristic explanation of Matthew 24; but, by your suggesting the discussion was over, I felt an urgency to hack out what I could, hurrying a brief quote from another concerning this.  "Racial Dispensationalism" has used the media to popularize this view from around the beginning of the 20th Century; yet, most seem unaware of where they got it, accepting it as fact.  Careful study of other passages in the Bible that use similar words and phrases found in Mt 24, as well as 1st Century history, make a different reading of the meaning of Jesus's prophecy.  While it is the knowledge of God that is central, rather than the knowledge of Scripture, much advance may be had from the proper understanding of the written Logos.  It is not by shutting people into a prejudicial view, but by open examination of whatever is necessary that truth thrives.  "Truth survives the closest scrutiny."  With knowledge, things eventually become apparent to one's own self without anybody looking over our shoulders.  "As the mouth tastes food, so the ear tries words."

The following is from the website of The International Preterist Association (no author was named):  "When will Christ return? This question is relevant, and can be answered by scripture. Jesus seems to have answered it very clearly in these passages (Matt. 10:23; Matt. 16:27,28; Matt. 24:34). Ever wonder why the First Century Christians expected Jesus to come in their lifetime, and where they got this expectation from? Take a look at the extreme sense of immanency in these passages: James 5:8,9; 1 Pet. 4:7; Matt. 10:23; Matt. 16:27,28; Matt. 24:34. These verses have always troubled Bible students, and have been used by liberal theologians to attack the inspiration of Scripture. They reason that these passages were not fulfilled when they were supposed to be (the first century generation), so Jesus and the NT writers failed in their predictions and were therefore not inspired. But these verses point to Christ's coming in some sense in connection with the Fall of Jerusalem at 70 AD. So, Jesus' predictions were fulfilled. He did not fail, nor do we need to engage in theological gymnastics to try to explain-away the seeming delay or postponement of His return. It happened right on schedule. Many knew the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was important in God's scheme of redemption, but never understood its full significance. It has to do with the consummation of the plan of redemption. The final events of the redemptive drama came to pass in the first century within the apostles' generation (before A.D. 70). Christ's kingdom is here now. Paradise has been restored in Christ (spiritually-speaking). Christ has conquered all His enemies and has given us the Kingdom."

[arcticmonster2003]

quote Mickiel

Jesus in John 10:37-38;" If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe me, but if I do them, though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may understand."

Jesus was the author and perfector of our faith, not one growing in it, in him there was no darkness.
1 Timothy 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

quote Mickiel

Who did Gods work after Jesus left?

Well, to start with, the aposles, and all throughout the centuries whom have carried the Gospel to our ears. (how did you hear about Jesus Christ, from heaven or from man)

quote Mickiel

Were they called to save this world, or to just pass down truth information to those who are like you?

Whatever their calling was, what I received was repentance for my sins, faith in he whom the Eternal Father sent, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

quote Mickiel

You know your world is one that I avoid, God be praised, this is why I walk alone. I do not want to be influenced by these estimates of God. I prefer to be outside of these things.

It is not you walking alone that got us in this conversation in the first place or what I considered to be "a problem", but rather your argument that was written for all to read, members and non-members alike, that believers do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. Just sayin...

quote Mickiel

Paul in Gal. 6:15;" For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision anything, but a new creation." This is the new exulation of the new life.

Galatians 6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

There was still alot of people back then whom had trouble accepting that uncircimcised Gentiles had any part with God, also that the covenant for eternal life had nothing to do with works of the law. This was the point of the verses.

quote Mickiel

It does not matter how much the desire of people who claim God to be in them is proclaimed, they do not have a new life, they still have the same life.

Simply untrue, my life has changed dramatically since I received the Holy Spirit. My desire for God consumes my entire life. If you have not received a witness as of yet concerning this, then know that I have just witnessed to you right now.

quote Mickiel

They may hold a differing outlook, but they are not a new creation.

Again, untrue. There is a new life and God is the whole focus, everything else is distraction.

quote Mickiel

They are still human. Still flesh, and nothing can change that, except the new birth.

Those whom are born again, and are taught by the Holy Spirit begin to not care about the things of this world or the things of this flesh, each on different levels in accordance to the measure of faith that is bestowed upon them.

Are you speaking about the flesh being born again? Or are you saying our fleshly bodies are not, nor the fleshly bodies of any whom ever were in the flesh (apostles included) temple of the Holy Ghost?  This would be scripturally inaccurate, and if your using a reference beside scripture, may I know what it is? Are you saying that no man while in the flesh has received the Holy Ghost? Do you not consider that receiving the Holy Ghost while in the flesh was what was referred to as being born again?

Now this just doesn't make any sense, as you believe the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they were in the flesh, but are now saying we cannot receive the Holy Spirit while in the flesh??


Galatians 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his


Here is some of the accurate description of the Holy Spirit indwelling believers:

Romans 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I hope now that you understand that being born again was speaking of receiving the Holy Spirit while in a body of flesh, while in a mortal body. Do you see in Romans 8:10-14 that those being spoken to were in the flesh? There a many places that show that being Baptized in the Holy Spirit (AKA being born again) had nothing to do with being buried in the graveyard or cremated.

[reFORMer]

The realm of Paradise is the higher, closer side, that more directly seen through God's eyes, of this same creation of our outer lowered flesh man, though it is much more than that too.  The vast and supernal expression, "...out of Him and through Him and into Him is the All..." (Romans 11³⁶) is translated by The New English Bible as, "He is the Source and the Guide and the Goal of everything..."  Whatever is has it's Source side.  The immanent presentation of the cosmos is to not decide our disposition in reality.  "Judge not by appearances; but, judge righteous judgment." (Isaiah)  Through the realignment or manipulation of the Holy Spirit I have been granted to glimpse the glory that is right now just around the corner, if we could but enter into the Presence of Our Father.

To assume that this could not be the transitional generation one would need knowledge of where in God certain select one's are at out of all of God's more than 5 billions alive, and possibly as well, the advances of those that are on the other side of the veil.  When He has a sufficient number known to Him that have entered into enough victory, the crossing over will commence, even if it is only one to start.  Even if it doesn't prove to be The Time in the world, for you or any one of us, it can be "The Time" in God.  The door no man can shut is open for whosoever will.

At the time Jesus raised from the dead, the last chapter of Matthew tells us many of the holy ones raised with him and that they showed themselves to many in the holy city.  I lean to the assumption that those are the 144,000.  They've already entered in bearing the ark like the priests who were 2,000 cubits ahead of the congregation at the time of the crossing over into inheriting Canaan.  They stood in the river while the rest caught up and passed on.

As Jesus revealed Himself, not to the world or even all Israel before He was taken up into glory, so in like manner is His appearing in our entrance into the next age.  It is to those earnestly seeking and desiring Him to whom "He will appear a second time without sin unto salvation."  It will not be an event recognized at first by the world, even what is popularly referred to as the church.  It will in a generation dawn upon the entire world; but, it is to and through His own that already dearly love Him that He will become increasingly manifest.  "When He appears, we shall appear with Him in glory."

It is the salvation of the body of the holy people that is what all of creation is in birth pangs for.  When our physical being is placed into the liberation of full sonship, all of creation will begin to reap the benefit.  The manifestation (not the disappearance) of the sons of God will affect the rest of the physical cosmos.  Few are now spiritual enough to move in other realms so as to speak authoritatively on what is transpiring in the heavenlies.  Few wait on the Lord in prayers and fasting in agreement with one another.

[whyiloveitaly]

I think someone can be saved yet not have the baptism in the Holy Ghost.
Like Mickiel says, if there's the Spirit of God around, people will know it. Because it comes in power, not in word only.

If we get our eyes onto our Father and off of each other, we should see more clearly.
Then, when God decides to, He will move by His Spirit. (Better sooner than later, we hope!)

Bri