Author Topic: Universal Salvation is a Conscious awareness, that is not based on awareness.  (Read 28066 times)

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Offline CHB

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This article will explain what I am doing a poor job of. Please let me know what you think and how you see things happening?


Just Who Are You
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess042.htm

CHB

Mickiel

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This article will explain what I am doing a poor job of. Please let me know what you think and how you see things happening?


Just Who Are You
http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess042.htm

CHB



Well I read the article, and I think it places too much emphisis on humans role in Gods Kingdom, and in his Family. It magnifys too many things about humans. But thats just one of the things I saw, I saw many other things I didnot agree with. But that is not my concern, I am more concerned with this; If you are believing something, and you cannot properly explain it, then you need to fix that by your own study, not by what someonelse has wrote. You need to get your own understanding and beliefs more grounded between you and God, not between you and some article you read.

That being said, why should God mix Light with Darkness in his Kingdom? Why should he allow human flesh to continue for 1000 years, after the return of Christ? Must Christ now, in the Kingdom, defeat flesh even yet again? Why are you believing this?

Peace.

Offline Pierac

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Quote from: MICKIEL
That being said, why should God mix Light with Darkness in his Kingdom?

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all
these things.

Concordant OT  Ecc 1:13  "It is an experience of evil Elohin [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."

My guess is He does it for your benefit.

Offline CHB

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Mickiel,

I do not take one man's word for anything. I try to read all I can from different sources about a subject and ask God to show me what is right. I do think Ernest Martin is right on a lot of subjects. I think Gary Armulet... I know I didn't spell that last name right...is right on a lot of things, and so are a lot of other people. I was just trying to get your opinion on this subject, since you brought up the view that there would be no soul saving in God's kingdom. That is why I post on these forums, to learn and to give what I have learned. A little here and a little there.

Pierac,

What is your opinion on this?
How do you picture the 1000 year reign?  Is it a thousand years?  Will there be people that will be saved during this 1000 years?
Will there be humans on earth when Christ sets up his kingdom?

Here is another article that explains what I am talking about.

CHB

Adulterers, Thieves, Liars, Whoremongers,
Blasphemers and Murderers,
WILL NOT BE in the Kingdom of God

Listen to the Byte Show Interview on this article:

ABC's of the Gospel Part 3 - Listen Download MP3

More Byte Show Interviews...
Though all mankind are destined to be finally saved and become members of the Family of God, the vast number of people who have ever lived will not achieve this glorious state until what Paul calls the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times (Ephesians 1:10). Recall that Paul said that salvation was to be given to mankind at particular seasons of time. (See page 30 of this book for details.) Those periods are described by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Those periods are important in knowing the times of salvation. Paul gives us the excellent teaching on this.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man [one] in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [Greek has singular]; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [his Second Advent]. Then cometh the end [Greek: the telos], when he [Christ] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father."

1 Corinthians 15:2223

Paul mentions three time periods in which there will be resurrections to spiritual life. The first was at the time of Christ's own resurrection, the second is when all the righteous who have lived during this age (up to the Second Advent) will be resurrected to experience the thousand year reign of Christ in his Kingdom on earth called the Millennium (or the Jews called it "the Age to Come"). Then, after the Millennium (or the Age to Come) is over, Christ will hand all the government and power over to the Father. The Kingdom phase of Christ's rule will have ended (verses 2528). Then will come what Paul called in Greek the telos (the end). This third (and last) period for resurrection is the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times which occurs after the Kingdom phase is over. This is when the third and final resurrection to spiritual life occurs. This is when the vast majority of people who have lived on earth will obtain their predestined salvation, which has been guaranteed to them in Christ.

But note this. Only those whom God considers worthy during this age will have the blessing (and reward) of being resurrected at the Second Advent of Christ. They will inherit the Kingdom phase of salvation which occurs a little over a thousand years before the vast majority of mankind receive their salvations. If we want to inherit our salvation and to experience the Age to Come (or the Millennium) then Paul warns all people they ought to be refraining from evil.

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Ephesians 5:5

All of the warnings given by Christ and the apostles about punishment, perishing, not making it, undergoing judgments, and not inheriting the promises, have to do with this matter of not inheriting the Age to Come or the Millennium. It simply means that unless people express civility and good in their demeanor in this time of existence (or if they know nothing about the Kingdom phase with Christ ruling on earth for a thousand years in glory), then such persons will not be resurrected at the Second Advent of Christ to experience the Kingdom phase of salvation. They will have to wait until the telos (which is the time of the very end at the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times) before gaining their resurrections and their salvations, which all mankind are promised by God the Father and Christ. God expects his people to show good conduct here and now or they may not gain the reward of experiencing the Kingdom, which begins with Christ's Second Advent and lasts for the Millennium.

Look at an example of this particular warning recorded in Paul's writings. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:1015 that all who know the truth at this time should be building our spiritual houses with good works and by practicing proper doctrines of Christ. If we do not (deliberately so), then even the good works that we do may be in danger of being burnt up in judgment. Paul said,

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself will be saved; yet so as by fire."

1 Corinthians 3:15

Paul meant that the wicked persons would not be brought up at Christ's Second Advent to inherit the Kingdom phase of salvation (which the Jews called "the Age to Come"). This means the wicked persons would suffer loss, but they would still be saved. Their salvation will only come to them after the Kingdom phase is over and they would miss out on living and ruling with Christ and the other resurrected saints (as a reward) during that period of a thousand years.

Paul gave another illustration of this principle of judgment on the evildoers. He chastised a Christian man who was living with his father's wife in an incestuous union. Paul said (unless the man would repent of his ways),

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh [in this life], that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

1 Corinthians 5:5

So, if people know the truths of God and still in a deliberate manner continue as always in their adulteries, whoremongerings, thievery, murdering, blaspheming, etc. during this life, these people can be judged by God now for their wicked ways (1 Timothy 5:24), and they certainly will not be resurrected at Christ's Second Advent to experience with the rest of the saints of God the Kingdom phase of salvation (the Age to Come) called the Millennium. They will have to wait until a time period called the telos, which occurs after the Kingdom phase is over to receive the full knowledge of the truth of God and the salvation, which all people are promised in Christ from before the foundation of the world. This lack of reward is a punishment for their sins. They will not experience the Kingdom phase of salvation, which is to rule with Christ during the Millennium (the Age to Come).

In no case, however, will people burn in a hell fire forever as a punishment for sins. After all, mankind has been created mortal. We do not have an immortality associated with us yet. The doctrine of the so-called Immortality of the Soul (or Spirit of man) is an alien teaching to those found in the Bible. The only one possessing immortality, who has ever lived on earth, is Christ Jesus. Paul said, "Who only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). All other people who have died from the time of Adam and Eve and down to our own day are NOT living in heaven, purgatory, limbo or some kind of hell devised by the pagans of the ancient world. They are all dead in their graves and awaiting their resurrections from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3556). Of all those since Adam who have died, only one person has attained a spiritual life to immortality. That person is our Elder Brother, Christ Jesus. "Who only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16).

It can easily be proved that the punishment for sins is not everlasting life in a hell fire burning forever. The English words "forever, everlasting or eternity" are principally from the Hebrew word olam or from the Greek words aeon or aeonian. These words of themselves never mean "forever." The words signify an undefined time period that has a beginning and an end to it. The shortest time period for olam (which some foolishly translate "forever") in the Old Testament lasted only three days when Jonah was in the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:6). Really, the words olam, aeon and aeonian refer to indefinite time periods either long or short. Good translators of the Bible usually denote them as "age" or the adjective could be "age-lasting." The words themselves do not mean "forever." They certainly do not signify that the punishments mentioned in the Bible for sins last forever.

There is a prime example to show that the punishment for sins is not "forever." Indeed, it is the standard example that we should all pay attention to. That example is the one given by Christ Jesus himself when he performed his mission for mankind on earth. Note this. When Christ died on the tree of crucifixion for all mankind, he took upon himself all the sins of the world (even the most heinous) and suffered the punishment for those sins for all the sins of the world. But Christ did not go to a hell fire and burn forever to pay the punishment for those sins. Had the wages of sin been to endure a hell fire forever as so many preachers, evangelists and priests state, then for Christ to have paid that penalty for the world's sins, he would have to be in that hell fire right now and burning for the rest of eternity.

The truth is, Christ was out of his grave three days later and went to heaven and is now in a glorious relationship with the Father (reigning there in our place until our resurrections from the dead). The Bible shows in no uncertain terms that the wages of sin happens to be death, not eternal life in hell fire or anywhere else (Romans 6:23). And that is what Christ did for us, and for all the human race. He died for them and paid for all their sins perfectly and completely. For more information on this vital subject concerning the punishments for sins, see my book 101 Bible Secrets that Christians Do Not Know.

It is time that people today abandon the absurd teachings of many of the preachers, evangelists and priests who claim to be teaching the Gospel of Christ to the world. The vast majority of them are as far off from teaching the truth of the Gospel as they can get. What they need to do, is to change their ways. They need to begin to teach the real truths of the Bible. Those truths start out with the fact that the Gospel of Christ is a teaching which shows all mankind how they GOT saved in Christ before the foundation of the world, not what they have to do to GET saved. It was Christ Jesus who did the works that GOT mankind saved.

Mankind also ought to be told that if they wish to experience their resurrections from the dead at the Second Advent of Christ in order to inherit the Kingdom phase of salvation, then they ought to be living like the members of the Family of God that they are and not in a barbaric and uncivilized manner that is unbecoming to the children of God. This is what Christ, Paul, Peter, John and the other apostles taught.

And though it is clear that all mankind will not inherit the Kingdom of God at the Second Advent of Christ, all mankind will without fail be saved in Christ. This truth is as certain as the rising of tomorrow's sun. This promise is backed up by the express commands of God the Father and Christ Jesus made to mankind before the foundation of the world. There is not the slightest doubt that all mankind will be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. The apostle Paul made it clear when salvation was granted to us.

"Who [God] hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

2 Timothy 1:9

Remember, the true message of the Gospel is not what man has to do to be saved, but it is the teaching of what Christ Jesus did for all mankind that GOT them saved! Preachers, evangelists and priests need to start teaching the truth and telling the world how all mankind GOT saved in Christ Jesus.       Ernest L Martin

Offline 97531

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If I may.

Tradition teaches from Adam to Noah was 2000 years, from Noah to Jesus was 2000 years, from Jesus to now is 2000 years = 6000 years aka the creation complete 6th day et al then we have the 2nd advent plus another 1000 years = 7000 years = the number of 7 the perfect number and Jesus number is 8 new beginnings et al.

Too much has been played into numerology by our ETM brethren.  I may be wrong but I perceive that many who have embraced CU/UR are still holding to traditional teachings and trying to make them fit to CU/UR.

I go along with what Mickiel says if satan is bound literally for 1000 years aka millenial reign and then is released it makes no sense.  This is anyway followed by the mother of all wars aka the apocalypse which in itself is ludicrous as in a literal 1000 years of peace w/o evil influence, who would be making weapons?

Either you take the book of Revelation literal throughout or symbolic/allegorical throughout.  This is where I get my back up with folk that take a prophesy:

Rev 22:19  And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.

And then quantum leap between past present and future at will to suit their doctrines.

Just like the Jews who look toward a Messiah that has already transpired, satan has most of Christendom looking outward toward some future event of Kingdom to come that is already established.

Personally, I would suggest putting Revelation in the pending tray until the Holy Spirit wants to reveal it to you.  Remember, John wrote it to the seven churches so in essence the prophesy was for them first.  I am not saying it has no relevance for us but I believe the revelation of revelation is very much a personal thing, hence it is so hotly debated.  The hell-fire and cloud surfing folk have extracted enough cherries to confuse the folk and keep them in bondage and ineffective as a body.

If you see the coming of the Lord as perpetually present and spiritual, then read Revelation in the same way.

Blessings
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Mickiel

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Well again, what I go on is what I read, because I don't know the level of Spiritual inspiration behind what I read, I can't tell anyone what that is, because I don't know, but I am not going to take anyonelses word for it, Gods word for it is sufficent.

Look at the flow of Revelations from chapter 17- chapter 20, its bang bang quick quick. That is the pace. In 17:12, the 10 Kings, who have not yet received a Kingdom, are given Authority with the Beast for " One Hour". Together with the beast, they are destined to fight Jesus in vs.14. By these indications, this battle will last only one hour, which is basically going to be a slaughter. Note that the called and chosen ones " Will be with Christ DURING this battle".

Again in 18:8, the urgency of Gods intent is shown by giving all the Plagues to Babylon in " One Day".  In one Day Babylon is said to have " Burned up with Fire", it says God Judges her in One Day. So the " Pace" here is quick, One hour or One Day, even if the time is not exactly that, the " Symbolism" offered is still the impression of fast paced judgement. Notice 18:10, " For in One Hour Your Judgement has Come." Again the theme of fast paced Judgement is repeated. In the Bible repitition is emphisis, and the oppisite is true also, because we know how the Bible can just mention something just one time, and does not place emphisis on it. But here in Revelations, this quick pace is repeated. Again in 18:17, it is repeated. In One Hour their wealth and Shipping abilitys are destroyed. Their Navy is wiped out. In 18:19, it is Again repeated.

Its the pace here that concerns me, these are very fast moving events. Now Chapter 19; 1-10are praise verses basically, but then in vs.11 the heavens open and Jesus appears, and that I think is a vital key in understanding all of these events. Revelations is " Jumping Back and Forth, not telling the story in a straight Line, Or Chronilogical Order. Jesus has already defeated Babylon in Chapter17, now we are switching back to his second comming in 19:11, and in vs 20 he's dealing with the Beast again. Then in Chapter 20,the 1000 years is introduced. Satan is imprisioned and in vs.6, the Saints reign with Christ for 1000 years. In vs.7, obviously the 1000 years are over and Satan is loosed.

No mention of what this 1000 years is going to be like in detail, no other references to it that go in detail, this period is not emphisized in the bible. Its not given a lot of importance. Even if taken literal, the Bible still brushes through this period very quickly. And I question that, at least the literal view of it. Then the deception starts all over again, now theres a " Second War", a Second Ressurection, and a Great White Throne Judgement.

So I think there is a lot of Juggling going on, events fast moving, and we just misunderstand things at this dazzaling pace. I am weary of this pace, but then all of a sudden there is a 1000 years of a " Lull in the Action". That don't fit right. For Christ to fight humanity once, destroy their armys, supposedly have his second comming, then set up a Flesh mixed Kingdom on earth, that only last for 1000 years, then we have to fight again. Somethings not working with that.

Peace.

Offline CHB

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Quote from: Seeker
Personally, I would suggest putting Revelation in the pending tray until the Holy Spirit wants to reveal it to you.  Remember, John wrote it to the seven churches so in essence the prophesy was for them first.  I am not saying it has no relevance for us but I believe the revelation of revelation is very much a personal thing, hence it is so hotly debated.  The hell-fire and cloud surfing folk have extracted enough cherries to confuse the folk and keep them in bondage and ineffective as a body.

Seeker,

Revelation has been in my pending tray for years. I think it is a book that we all should understand but I sure have had my problems doing this. I admit I have learned a lot about Revelation in the past five years. A lot I have learned and changed my mind on came from these forums, that is why I like to read what others think about a subject. You see, the reason I posted these articles is, this was what I thought was a fact but recently I have been questioning some of this.

Mickiel,

Quote from: Mickiel
So I think there is a lot of Juggling going on, events fast moving, and we just misunderstand things at this dazzaling pace. I am weary of this pace, but then all of a sudden there is a 1000 years of a " Lull in the Action". That don't fit right. For Christ to fight humanity once, destroy their armys, supposedly have his second comming, then set up a Flesh mixed Kingdom on earth, that only last for 1000 years, then we have to fight again. Somethings not working with that.

This was what I was looking for, your opinion.  This area is where I have questions also. 

Something else I wonder about though. If God is going to teach all as it says in (John 6:45) When will this take place if not when Christ returns? There are those who die every day who have not heard about God. Mickiel, you said "there will be no saving of souls in the kingdom of God". When will these souls be saved that have not heard of God?

Thanks for you patience.

CHB
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 06:03:19 PM by CHB »

Offline 97531

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Quote from: CHB
Revelation has been in my pending tray for years. I think it is a book that we all should understand but I sure have had my problems doing this. I admit I have learned a lot about Revelation in the past five years. A lot I have learned and changed my mind on came from these forums, that is why I like to read what others think about a subject. You see, the reason I posted these articles is, this was what I thought was a fact but recently I have been questioning some of this.

Hi CHB

I possibly only see one flaw in your approach and forgive me if I misconstrue what you were trying to say.  I do not think any scripture can be boxed into a answer 1 = question 1.  I believe as we grow and mature we should be flexible to allow for new revelation.  However, new revelation should be progressive.  Dismissing the fundie traditional approach and seing a new level 1 that makes sense for now I would say is safe, thereafter, revelations should be progressively deeper and should not necessarily contradict.  I hope I am making sense.

As for the 1000 years, this has been linked witha 3rd return, the second being the cloud surfing, and then us saintly folk ministering to the fleshly folk aka the survivors of the great tribulation.

What is glaringly wrong with this presupposition is that while satan is bound for 1000 years why would it take so long for us to convert these survivors?  Secondly upon conversion they too would be immortalised don't you think.  W/o satan how then would they be able to refuse?

I do not have an answer yet for the 1000 years but I would say it is symbolic rather than literal.  I am starting to see things differently on many levels, if the Lord directs me back to Revelation I will share what I find.

I think there is enough about Jesus to demystify first

Here is one article I found on the millennium on Tentmaker http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HopeoftheJews/chap19.htm
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Quote from: CHB

Quote from: Mickiel
So I think there is a lot of Juggling going on, events fast moving, and we just misunderstand things at this dazzaling pace. I am weary of this pace, but then all of a sudden there is a 1000 years of a " Lull in the Action". That don't fit right. For Christ to fight humanity once, destroy their armys, supposedly have his second comming, then set up a Flesh mixed Kingdom on earth, that only last for 1000 years, then we have to fight again. Somethings not working with that.

This was what I was looking for, your opinion.  This area is where I have questions also. 

Something else I wonder about though. If God is going to teach all as it says in (John 6:45) When will this take place if not when Christ returns? There are those who die every day who have not heard about God. Mickiel, you said "there will be no saving of souls in the kingdom of God". When will these souls be saved that have not heard of God?

Thanks for you patience.

CHB


Greetings CHB,

Firstly, In John 6:45, being taught of God, as I have mentioned, is already occuring, why Does God have to be held to restrictions in his power to teach? He is not restricted by time, by human committment to learning, not by life or death, not by the condition of the being he is teaching, not by scripture, God can teach, and Does teach, by his own power. Because his power is unlimited, then his ability to teach is unlimited, weather we see that or not. The souls you are wondering as to " When " they will be saved, they are ALREADY saved! They are Already Judged. Your mind searchs for a timeframe, a moment that you can see and pin down as God acting to save them. When Jesus did his thing on earth, THAT is when they were Saved. God is not going to ressurect dead humanity to make ready to save them, he has already accomplished that. Humans will be ressurected to be changed from mortal to immortality. They will be changed, that change will involve them being absolutely purged from sin and Forgiven, if you believe and accept universal Salvation.

But if you do not accept the forgiveness of all, then the ressurection of the dead takes on a different meaning. In that case, humans can be raised from the dead, to then be judged by God, or to be put on " Trial".  Given some sort of life in the flesh, given a space of time to learn and grow, and then, at some much later date, God will convert them, and then they will be changed to Spirit beings. This still could be a way to accept the salvation of all, but only after they go through this learning period, taught by Spiritual beings, and then annointed later. I am uneasy with that belief.

For example, Rev.20:12;" And I saw the dead, the great and small, standing before the throne, and bookS were opened; and ANOTHER Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were Judged from the Things written in the BookS, according to their deeds." Now, IF you accept Universal Salvation, then you are believing that the Judgement that these " Books" are giving to humanity, is eternal Life Freely Given to all created humans. We believe the Judgement that the Books reveal, is the Freely inherited Salvation of all. The dead humans who are in " Death cyber Space", who you might have thought were not yet Judged, are actually Judged already. They already have inherited eternal Life, so their ressurection is only a formality of Giving it to them, NOT Teaching it to them. The teaching is not that important at this stage, the GIVING of eternal Life superseeds any learning that you are curious to pin down.

The " Dead were Judged from the things written in the Books". The things written in the Book reveal the Forgiveness of All. They are Judged " According to their deeds", not their individual deeds, but the " Deeds in the Books", which could reference the very deeds of Christ himself. Our Judgement is based on Jesus, the Sineater, as is our Salvation.

There will be no soul saving in Gods Kingdom, because all the souls are saved already. That is if you accept universal Salvation. Even if we must allow this " Teaching Time" in the Kingdom, teaching, or training, or Learning, is NOT considered Saving someone. Those things can be done to " Saved People."

Peace.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 07:06:03 PM by SeekerSA »

Offline CHB

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I possibly only see one flaw in your approach and forgive me if I misconstrue what you were trying to say.  I do not think any scripture can be boxed into a answer 1 = question 1.  I believe as we grow and mature we should be flexible to allow for new revelation.  However, new revelation should be progressive.  Dismissing the fundie traditional approach and seing a new level 1 that makes sense for now I would say is safe, thereafter, revelations should be progressively deeper and should not necessarily contradict.  I hope I am making sense.

Seeker,

I do believe in progressive revelation. I have believed in the salvation of all for a long time but there are things that I am still learning on these subjects, especially things in Revelation.

Thanks for the article.

CHB

Offline CHB

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Quote from: Mickiel
Firstly, In John 6:45, being taught of God, as I have mentioned, is already occuring, why Does God have to be held to restrictions in his power to teach? He is not restricted by time, by human committment to learning, not by life or death, not by the condition of the being he is teaching, not by scripture, God can teach, and Does teach, by his own power. Because his power is unlimited, then his ability to teach is unlimited, weather we see that or not. The souls you are wondering as to " When " they will be saved, they are ALREADY saved! They are Already Judged.

Mickiel, I agree that God can teach us and is teaching some of us now but some don't even know there is a God.  I also know that everyone is already saved but most do not know it and most haven't repented, not that they have to repent to be saved. It just seems to say they will repent. I do think that everyone will eventually at some point in time acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I am not sure when this will be, but the whole world is not and has never been filled with the  knowledge of God as it says it will be in... (Hab. 2:14) "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".

This can get confusing I guess. Sorry for any inconvenience.

God bless.

CHB

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Quote from: Mickiel
Mickiel, I agree that God can teach us and is teaching some of us now but some don't even know there is a God.  I also know that everyone is already saved but most do not know it and most haven't repented, not that they have to repent to be saved. It just seems to say they will repent. I do think that everyone will eventually at some point in time acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I am not sure when this will be, but the whole world is not and has never been filled with the  knowledge of God as it says it will be in... (Hab. 2:14) "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".

This can get confusing I guess. Sorry for any inconvenience.

God bless.

CHB

Greetings, there is no inconvenience with me, if you can suffer myself, I can suffer yours. If I had to nail down a scriptural time that God begins to ignite, inform, refresh, renew, instill, and increase on resurrected unknowing humanity, it would be Rev. 22:1-5. Here God deals with the " Healing of the Peoples", which covers much ground. Teaching and education, spiritual infusion of all kinds, opening of minds, filling in of empty spaces, just about any kind of experience one could imagine, can take place during this " Healing Time." In vs. 5, God shall " Illumine Them", oh this can cover a whole lot of spiritual ground.

But it is here, it is here that all unimformed, will be informed. All ignorant, will be educated. All things needed, will be provided, but only after the healing. And most of the Healing will be a giant infusion of Galations 5:22, the Fruits of the Spirit will be flushed into humanity, like the rays of the Sun flush the entire earth.

So I would say that this is the time of worldwide" Bringing into awareness", where God heals the consciousness of Humanity and begins their New Birth at a point that they can comprehend what is going on.

Peace.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 09:21:01 PM by SeekerSA »

Offline CHB

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Hi Mickiel,

You might just be on to something here. Thanks for this information, I never thought of this verse in this way before.

The next question is, when is this taking place? Already done, now, or in the future?

CHB

Mickiel

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Hi Mickiel,

You might just be on to something here. Thanks for this information, I never thought of this verse in this way before.

The next question is, when is this taking place? Already done, now, or in the future?

CHB


This event is future. Its the last recorded chapter in the bible, the last recorded events we are given insight into for our future. Man has moved into eternity here, we begin our destiny with God. And are said to ever be with him forevermore. In Rev.20, the throne of God himself is now on earth, the earth then is now the center of the Spiritual World. We begin our time with God with a mass healing, the physical seasons that exist in the physical relm are removed. The sun itself is removed from reality, Gods own glory will be the Light in the Kingdom. This means " Time" is removed and eliminated. Time is interelated to the material world, as is pain, misery and curses. All these are eliminated perminately in Rev.20:3-5, which is another reason we do not accept the eternal hell punishing doctrine.

In this final recorded event, God ends the physical relm, and embodies himself as omega, or the end.

Peace.

Offline 97531

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Quote from: Mickiel
So I would say that this is the time of worldwide" Bringing into awareness", where God heals the consciousness of Humanity and begins their New Birth at a point that they can comprehend what is going on.

I think I am seeing now where your POV of the born again comes from, makes sense.  I still believe however, we can have this experience now, a beginning of sorts and hereafter fulfilled completely.

Blessings
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Mickiel

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Quote from: Mickiel
So I would say that this is the time of worldwide" Bringing into awareness", where God heals the consciousness of Humanity and begins their New Birth at a point that they can comprehend what is going on.

I think I am seeing now where your POV of the born again comes from, makes sense.  I still believe however, we can have this experience now, a beginning of sorts and hereafter fulfilled completely.

Blessings


Well I quess its known by some here how I view the Born Again subject, so I won't go into that, I certainly differ on that with many, not only here, but just about everywhere I go. Consciousness is tricky, in my view, just because we are aware of something, does not mean we " Own It", right then and there. Conversely, just because we are not aware of it, does not always mean we are excluded from it. And this is how I view Universal Salvation. Many are not aware of it, but none are excluded from it. Because Universal Salvation is a " Prophecy", and many are not always keyed into Prophecy.

The " Truth" is the Spirit of Prophecy, NOT awareness. The " Spirit of Prophecy", is not based on who is aware of the Prophecy. Now there is a definte blessing in being aware of Prophecy, look at Rev. 22:7;" And behold, I am comming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the Prophecy of this Book." There is a blessing in awareness, or Consciousness. But Prophecy is not based on Consciousness, its based on Truth. Not all Consciousness are aware of Truth. The Truth is Constant and really never ending. God will put and end to many, many things, but he willnot place an end on Truth.

Many believers are aware of the Biblical interpitations on being " Born Again", and their consciousness is seared on it, unrelenting and unchanging. They have identified the subject, which is " Name it", they have taken it by the force of their belief, which is " Claim It". And this is how I view the " Searing of the Consciousness", the belief is so deeply rooted, it is impossible for it to be reversed. The belief in eternal hell punishment, is a searing of the Consciousness, it is implanted so deeply, not even clear scripture against it can penertrate its root system. Thats because the person " Desires it to be true", which no hell believer will readily admit.

The Born Again experience is something people strongly desire to be now theirs, now accomplished, now complette. And I understand that. I understand strong Spiritual Desire, and I consider it to be stronger than any human emotion that I know of, up there next to addiction. Once a Spiritual Mind believes that it has been " Enlightened", it is a very hard thing to back it down from that, because there are areas that it shouldnot back down from, but our wisdom to know the difference is often weak.

Peace.

Mickiel

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If you examine what Consciousness is, then one can see a little more of its importance.  To be conscious is to be aware. Aware of your existence, mentally alert and knowing what you are doing. Now look at the definition of Counscience: The guiding recognition of right and wrong as regards ones actions and motives. Look at that, now we are adding moral qualities with only a slight variation in the term. I think thats interesting, and very relevant.

In Matthews 22:37, Jesus asserts " You shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart , and with all your Soul and with all your Mind." This is the Consciousness, this is the ultimate awareness, this is the very future of human thinking. So really God is the focus of all who are Conscious.

You need to think about that sometimes, all life, before we were alive, all conscious beings are totally fixated on God. And let me share some of the reasons WHY they are fixated on God. God is not forcing them to focus on him, like some ego maniac, but they are doing it for firstly these two reasons; God created them and they are grateful for life, two, its what they " See in God" that fascinates them!

They are looking into total Goodness and Mercy, unlimited Love and Peace, overwhelming Kindness and Patience, outstanding Gentleness and Longsuffering. And they are seeing these things at their highest, and they are impressed, they are overwhelmed by it, they are humbled by it, they are AFFECTED by it! And it causes them to fall down, or humble themselves, and Worship this great awesome being. And this is the control that God has on his subjects. THIS is why God is a Conscious overpowering influence. He IS the Power, but he DISPLAYS the FRUITS of the Spirit in HIS Consciousness. Because of Gods Consciousness, Goodness and Mercy RULES reality! And this is going to affect us. This is the true power behind Consciousness.

Peace.

Offline Pierac

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Hi CHB

Quote
Pierac,

What is your opinion on this?
How do you picture the 1000 year reign?  Is it a thousand years?  Will there be people that will be saved during this 1000 years?
Will there be humans on earth when Christ sets up his kingdom?

Here is another article that explains what I am talking about.

I don't have a clue.  :dontknow:  I have read so many really good articles on this, that I just don't know. I think He is returning to set up some kind of an earthly Kingdom, I just don't know how it will play out? 

Jesus spent 40 days discussing the Gospel of the Kingdom after his resurrection. Yet they still asked...
Act 1:6  So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

What did Jesus say?
Act 1:7  He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

In the Lord's prayer, Jesus teaches us to pray "Thy Kingdom come. " It should be noted, you do not pray for something to come if it is already here.  :dontknow:



Paul
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 03:29:52 AM by Pierac »

Mickiel

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Jesus spent 40 days discussing the Gospel of the Kingdom after his resurrection. Yet they still asked...
Act 1:6  So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

What did Jesus say?
Act 1:7  He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

In the Lord's prayer, Jesus teaches us to pray "Thy Kingdom come. " It should be noted, you do not pray for something to come if it is already here.  :dontknow:



Paul


Well I think these are good points. I know how it is to be consciously convivced about things, verses the humility to admit you really are not sure about things. Why indeed would Jesus teach others to pray for Gods Kingdom to come, if he was the living Kingdom living within them. Of all the truths I have assembled to help me to understand that the Kingdom is not now within, I never consider that verse. And that is a sign of the truth, when the evidence continues to build, like something growing.

And let me say this, a Prophecy grows or builds, as does a promise. There are differing ways to handle a promise, espically a promise comming from someone like God. I understand the urgency to take Gods promises for later, as if they are for now. In Luke 24:49, " And behold, I am sending forth the promise of my Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." Now you know good and well that some of the disciples didnot want to wait in that city, they were hyped up enough to go at it with their own power. But God promised them to be filled with the Power.

Imagine that, to be able to say to yourself; " I have the Power", and I have it now. I am Born Again, and Born Again right now. I have the Kingdom within, and I have it right now. But do you have the Power? Has it been given? In physcology, one is trained in physcosis. Often a way to convince yourself, is repitition, you just keep telling yourself that you are something. Oh the Father promised that we will be Born Again, that we will have the Kingdom, but has it been given, or are we to be waiting on it? Again I won't go far into this, because I respect how many here have laid out their claims.

But there are certain ways to interpit Scripture. In Luke 23:43, Jesus tells the thief next to him on the Cross, " Truly I say to you, today, you shall be with me in Paradise." When that theif is ressurected, it still will be that day to him, even if it is 2000 years later. But the theif will still have to wait for the promise, until he is ressurected, even though the promise was made with literally no room avialible for waiting for it to be fulfilled. Whenever he is ressurected, no days will have passed in Paradise, he still will be with Jesus that day. 8,000 human years may pass, but no day in Paradise will elaspe until the theif is there with Christ, and no day will pass after he is there. And this is not trick terminology, these are biblical facts. And this same meaning applies to the 1000 year period called the millinueim.

Peace.

Offline reFORMer

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I so love the early posts concerning the title of this thread!  I've put them in a folder to re-read because of the stimulating revelation given.  Ah Mikiel, Mikiel!  You cause me to sing!  I hear music!  Let's dance!

But I must speak of the present reality of what Daniel reveals of the dream of the head of gold (who himself after humbling perceived, "Gods Kingdom rules over all"), "The Stone cut out without hands," that is becoming, "a great mountain that fills all the earth."  The mountains are kingdoms.  This was brought forth a couple of millennia ago with the Revelation of Jesus Christ smashing the Roman Kingdom and replacing it with Christendom, a carnal first move that will be surpassed, perhaps in our years, with a more spiritual version.

One of the more glorious things I've experienced is that the Holy Spirit the Father sends in the name of Jesus is both The Realm and The Ruler of The Kingdom of God.  That is why it is so called.  The Kingdom of God is just God!  Jesus suffered and died so that we could be brought into a direct experience of God, nothing between us and Him, unmediated by any other being.  That is why the professional religious elite with titles of honor from other men claiming they are themselves the "headship" ministry is another kingdom blasphemously supplanting the Only LORD who bought them.  The true Head of the body is present and directly quickening each member of His body.  That is why they're called "His body."

"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..." (Romans 14:17, ASV)  Some think only when the dimension of the physical (the same in which is food and drink for our body) is inescapably subjugated planet-wide to the manifest presence of God, then His kingdom has come.  (Regardless of doctrinaire denials by the inexperienced) not only is that realm sometimes entered into already by saints, the fact that, "the kingdom of God is inside you..." (Lk 17.21) is a clue to how it is accomplished.  In 2 Pet 1.3-11 "...the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..." is more fully explained, particulars built one upon another that this entrance NOW may, "...be richly supplied unto you."  This kingdom is described as our becoming, "...participants of the divine nature." (v.4)  The ladder rungs of this entrance, climbed with "all diligence," are ennumerated in this passage as "faith ...virtue ...knowledge ...self-control ...endurance ...devoutness ...brotherly-fondness ...love." (vs. 5-7)

If we are to be taught by anyone about the kingdom, surely first would be Jesus.  "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world:  if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:  but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" (John 18:36 ASV)  Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation" was a right equivalence:  "'Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!  It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God'.  And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, 'Then who can be saved?'  Jesus looking upon them saith, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God:  for all things are possible with God'." (Mark 10:24-27, ASV)  If it is true for you, whoever you may be, that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit.  The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people.  You may have this work of God in you too.  He, "Rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the forgiveness of sins..." (Col 1:13-14, CLV)

---James Rohde
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 09:54:21 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Mickiel

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Quote from: reFORMer
If we are to be taught by anyone about the kingdom, surely first would be Jesus.  "Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world:  if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:  but now is my kingdom not from hence.'" (John 18:36 ASV)  Now consider the following three phrases where Jesus acknowledged that entering the kingdom, understood by his disciples as "salvation" was a right equivalence:  "'Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!  It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God'.  And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, 'Then who can be saved?'  Jesus looking upon them saith, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God:  for all things are possible with God'." (Mark 10:24-27, ASV)  If it is true for you, whoever you may be, that you are not in the kingdom of God, be confident God's will is for you to be quickened to live by His Spirit.  The experience of regeneration, or being "born again" is the testimony of so many people.  You may have this work of God in you too.  He, "Rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the forgiveness of sins..." (Col 1:13-14, CLV)

---James Rohde


You know I really didnot want to go into the Kingdom being within thing, because I already know how it is planted very deeply here at Tentmaker, and I have no intention of trying to pull it out. But just to go over what was already mentioned, and to bear witness that we all do not believe alike, Jesus states that his Kingdom is not of this world, which means his Kingdom will not be in this world, or established in this world. The Kingdom of God is Love , Joy, Peace, and all the fruits of the Spirit, but it is not human Love, human Joy, earthly Peace or earthly duplicated shadows or imitations of the Spirit. It is the Heavenly example of these. But again I am making a conscious effort not to go into this, I am in no mood to take candy from an adult.

People are free to believe as they wish, I don't vist Tentmaker that much, I don't stay long, and I try not to bother people while I am here, I don't want my vists to always be serious debates that do nothing but anger people, I get enough hate mail as it is. Its no great thing that we will see things differing, Peter and Paul did, and if the Prophets lived at the same time, they would have been the same. It really does not matter, we can do nothing against whats really true anyway. It does not matter what we believe, the truth is constant. Look at 2 Corinth. 13:8;" For we can do nothing against the Truth, only for the truth." Whatever any of us are believing, that is really not true, so what, your belief can do nothing against the truth. You can take it to the grave with you, die in the deception, and it still will not go against you, or against Gods Kingdom. You will just be an example of how one can be misled, and still be saved, because knowledge does not bring conscious conversion.

Peace.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2008, 09:57:48 AM by SeekerSA »

Offline reFORMer

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This is from another thread.  It at least mentions not the elimination of the physical, but having a permanent embodiment which is the result of the resurrection.  It also points out some thing about "The ThousandS" of years Reign which is probably a learning period for the young immortals before the opening out into the grand concluding age (for this present cosmos.)  There is beyond, but that is what it is, "Beyond."

THE FAR FUTURE

As it is a function of spirit, God's Spirit seeks the deep things of God.  So we seek, a yearning out of the depths, to also glimpse those things in the more distant future.   We inquire whether Adamic humanity, homo sapiens, would advance and improve.  What is it's future?

I understand that the promise to bless to Abraham's offspring, even also to those obedient in love to God, is for a thousand generations.  "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations..." (Deut 7:9)  Calculating a generation as 40 years, we have at least 36,000 years left.  Much change indeed can be expected in that one revolution of the mammal's aptly named "Milky Way."  We haven't even emerged from the womb yet.

The Firstborn immortal head of the Royal Priesthood body, Jesus, is preparing a Marriage Feast, of mans animalistic lamb's flesh and God, the two made one.  God will have permanent expression not only as spirit, but physically in the Sonship realm where the material universe is.  When that many-membered body of Glory, the Shekinah Consort of the God-head is manifested, trained and reigning upon the great white Mercy Throne, that New Man, homo novae,  will have finally begun.  The Adamic form for others will continue reproducing flesh individuals living at least a restored thousand years, ("...for the child shall die an hundred years old..." Is 65:20) though expected to normally partake of the Tabernacle feast so defeating death long before reaching a natural end.  ("...but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Is 65:20)  Under the discipline of the incorruptible members of the first resurrection mankind will not only enter full redemption, but will disperse into the reaches of "the land" promised them to inherit, all that is within the realm called space/time.  It is that "all things are yours," "...let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." (1 Cor 3:21-23)

But ah, the thousand generations is a "calculation" of years!  What 40 is to 120 (the present economy,) could the coming generations be by comparison 333 years?  This would mean more than 2 1/2 million years are remaining for flesh man, though under different dispensations.  The Biblical "Millennium" is plural in the original, so times are not clear for what seems the training period for the young immortals.

What not only of light, but also of the darkness?  In Jude's letter it is mentioned of the fall of glorious beings, their forbidden intermingling with the seed of Eve and subsequent chains of darkness.  Such great and high cultures, prior to the appearance of man, with their engineering marvels grasping to imitate the abilities of the Divine nature, can have fallen and be held in the darkness of a forgetting mind, even denying it's glorious past in dim myths sung at ceremonial occasions.  Even as man is fallen and makes no move to the vast unmined horde of stars like diamonds, glittering in God's cold dark vault.  But mankind's future is brightest of all that ever may be, no superior sequel is possible.  The ultimate has occurred.  God's own manifestation as one of us leads forth into undying dawn, continuing onward and upward ever, even beyond all matter being collapsed into a keepsake, another "primal atom."  "And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." (Heb 1:12)  Yes, space can be folded and dark matter and energy now hide his out raying from consuming us.  "He made darkness His secret place." (Ps 18:11)  "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end..." (Is 9:7)

Psalm 102:25-28:
"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth:
and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment;
as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
The children of thy servants shall continue,
and their seed shall be established before thee.

---James Rohde
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 07:33:11 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

whyiloveitaly.com

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Mickiel:
Are you saying that people cannot be born again (I prefer 'regenerated') in this life and that the Kingdom of God is not within man, because you see so much imperfection still in man?

Just wanting to clarify..

Brian

Mickiel

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Mickiel:
Are you saying that people cannot be born again (I prefer 'regenerated') in this life and that the Kingdom of God is not within man, because you see so much imperfection still in man?

Just wanting to clarify..

Brian


Well Yes, that is what I believe.

I believe the New Birth, is just that, a totally New Birth. And I believe the Kingdom of God is a " Place", not some kind of " Spirit" that is within man.

I have been around the block on this topic here, so I don't bring it up myself, but I will respond to querys made of me. These two are " Sensitive Subjects", and they run deeply, so I try to respect my disagreement with others on it.

To be Born again, in my view, literally means what it says, to be actually Born Again. Not just some qusai Spiritual Birth in your mind, but to be taken out of the flesh, and totally transformed into a whole different being than you were before. You will have a whole new body, a whole new mind, a whole new  being, nothing will be the same. That is how I understand being Born Again.

I understand the Kingdom of God, to mean Gods Throne and the place that surrounds it. And when the bible speaks of the comming Kingdom of God, it speaks of a Kingdom that is not already here, inside of people, it is speaking of a geographic place that is directly associated with Gods literal Pressence.

I believe the " Process " that leads to being Born Again, can begin while one is still human, but the actual New Birth, is simply that, your former self is dead, complettely dead. And your New Self, is something even you have not seen or experienced.

Peace.

whyiloveitaly.com

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Mickiel:
Okay, just checking.
I kind of agree with your idea of a "total overhaul" of the person. I personally see that as happening as a baptism of fire, which even Jesus went through (I believe).
It's a subject which, were I to speak on, I suppose I should use the conditional grammatical form since I haven't passed through such a thing as of this moment.

Personally (not to try to convince you, only to express myself a little), I believe in a presence of the Lord within man. Not when we want, but when He wants. The problem as I see it today, is that we don't have the "abiding" presence. The Spirit descends, and it lifts. It's not abiding nor is it without measure as Jesus had it.
I believe I have been regenerated because there was a specific experience I had in 1990 which changed me. It doesn't mean I am perfect. No! We are in Pentecost, a period of mixture. But someday we will see Tabernacles, with that abiding presence without measure as Jesus had, but in a company of people. Still, that experience back in 1990 marked me. And even though I'm still in the flesh, I'm not the same. I would be lying if I said that I was the same person that I was before that experience. My heart if different today. I feel it.

I apologize if I offended you in any way. I just wanted to share what I've experienced, if it could be of any benefit to you or to anyone else reading.. Otherwise just ignore it!

Blessings!
Bri