Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism

[Paul Hazelwood]

I will respond to your reply TB at a later time regaurdless of your answer to two questions. 

But I would like to ask at this time.

1. Do you believe that the bible has to be true as written to the best of human ability to translate goes. I mean this for instance: In Isaiah where it states "God creates evil"  Regardless of what evil really is, will the words "God created evil" ever be changed by what this line of reasoning indicates what might be true about God?


2. Do you believe that this line of reasoning suggests different "bibles" in other time lines?

[joyful1]

Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Some versions of the bible and the Greek do not contain that phrase?
CLV "Ac 9:5 Yet he said,  "Who art Thou, Lord?"  Yet *He said,  "I'  am Jesus Whom you'  are persecuting.
Greek literal " He said yet any (who?) you are master (Lord)  the yet  I am Jesus  whom you are Chasing  (persecuting)

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Paul. I'm glad that you are checking these things out. Please feel free to correct me at any time as I want to reiterate that I am a student of the Word and not a teacher! again, thanks! :)
Acts 9:5   is, however included in both of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209, according to Tischendorf. See: http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious_text.htm

[True Believer]

Joyful1,

Re: "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Despite not being in most Greek manuscripts, it is almost assuredly supposed to be there.  Check out http://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/holland_ac9_5-6.html


Molly,

Ok, I'll await your instructions on how to move sideways in time. lol  But, so far, what I'm seeing is God raising up his sons to bind the strong man.  I think that is what has to happen 'fast enough.'

21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Actually, the Bible is an extremely good source of instruction for the Holy Spirit is what moves us, and the deeper we understand the Bible, the faster we will move.  And yes the Lord is raising an army, but that action is happening sideways in time as we speak.  For certain, the raising of the army reflects itself into the mundane realm, but the true causal factor is sideways in time.  Indeed, the descent of the Holy Spirit is inseparable from a sideways movement in time for the simple fact that the Power of God is not a mundane power, but a Power transcendent to time.  God Speaks and the whole of mundane reality from Alpha to Omega responds, with our wholehearted willingness to surrender our souls at this depth (i.e. surrender our mundane past) being the mark of a Bride who is ready for the wedding of the Lamb.  My cosmic destiny post will put this in a much deeper Biblical context.  For now, call on the Holy Spirit to guide you. 


Pneuma,

Hi TB this is where we separate in what we see, I do not believe that in another time line I made a choice or will make a choice that is responsible for changing my past or erasing my memory of events along this time line. That type of scenario would do away with my mans need for Christ in this time line.

Actually, it is an assumption that our need for Christ operates in this way.  Mundane time is that aspect of time that relates to people in a fallen state who are resisting, denying, blaming, blaspheming, etc. the Power of God.  That aspect of time/reality is headed toward total apocalyptic destruction as can be readily seen by both the increasing instability of the global economy and the increasing fanaticism of Islam and modern Eco-Paganism.  When we receive the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are by definition moving sideways to time for the reason I outlined just above in my response to Molly.  All I'm doing is calling attention to it.

Therefore in this time line I do not need God, do not need Jesus, do not need the Holy Spirit and can live like the devil, why? Because in another time line I have already overcome and this time line will be taken from my memory and changed by the time line in which I did need God did need Jesus did need the Holy Spirit and walked in a holy life.

I am not advocating this attitude at all.  In fact, if you live like the devil you will burn in Hell.  But as per the entire concept of universal salvation, Jesus will eventually heed your request for a chance to correct your mistakes.  None the less, it is much better to cultivate mutability of the past by walking the holy life now than it is to wait until after we are dead.

My past will never change, and as Paul says "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

Like I said to Molly, the Bible is an extremely good source of instruction, and aside from repentance, forgiveness and humility, there is no better piece of advice for helping facilitate a true change to the past than to forget those things that are behind us and focus on the calling of Jesus Christ.


Willie,

I too agree that you are a brother in Christ, but as you say: "when it comes to your WORDS, that is an entirely different matter..." In particular, I ask that you not misquote scripture, or make inconsistent or strawman arguments in your haste to rebut me.

The WORD states that there is NO VARIANCE in the WORD... (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) so it is YOU which challenge the statements of the Bible, not me...

If the WORD says that It does NOT VARY (James 1:17)... and that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (Mal 3:6), and that GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1:2)...

First, an absolutely unchanging God could preside over octillions of versions of history with octillions of different but otherwise invariant versions of the Bible.  This possibility has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not God changes.  As such, your reference to the variance of God is a pure strawman argument.  The real issue is whether you are willing to accept the quantum logic that God uses in the design and operation of reality, or whether you are going to reject quantum logic and remain ensnared in linear/worldly logic.  Again, I ask you to consider the possibility that the transcendence of God is so great that this multiplicity might be possible.

Second, Heb 13:8 / James 1:17 talk about the invariance of God, not about the invariance of the printed word, and as such you have misquoted scripture in a fundamental way.  Please note that I am not advocating variance of the scripture in any mundane sense, but I am making a careful distinction between the transcendent WORD that is Jesus, and printed word that we read from.  And since you are obviously confusing these in your thinking, I rightfully accuse you of bibliolatry, something that I see closely related to your rejection of quantum logic.

Third, I have never ever accused God of lying.  In fact, I have used the truthfulness of God as a premise for what I consider to be a reasonable interpretation of scripture.  In this regard, I believe the implication of free-will is so strong within the Bible that I use the premise of God not telling a lie to assert that it is a scriptural concept.  More on this below.

This is already beginning to weary me... but because God shall propose an "if/else" prophecy... does NOT conclude there are multiple pathways... It only states that one pathway can lead here, ...and the other -- there.

Fourth, this statement is totally inconsistent in that first you say that we can not conclude that there are multiple pathways, and then you state that one pathway leads here, and the other there.  Yes from a mundane perspective they are hypothetical pathways.  But unless you are going to say that man has no freedom whatsoever to choose between one hypothetical path and another, the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of every hypothetical pathway that humans might choose, something which necessarily implies the existence of multiple timelines even if they are only "hypothetical" from a mundane perspective.  From a quantum perspective, however, they are not hypothetical.

And before you jump out of the frying pan and into the fire by totally denying the human freedom to make choices, please note that there are dozens if not hundreds of references in the Bible to words like "will," "willingly," "voluntary," and "choose."   Indeed the very word "freewill" is itself in the Bible.   Go check it out at the Crosswalk Hebrew Lexicon: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/  Granted not every use of these words is a reference to the human ability to choose, and further granted that the Spirit of God sometimes influences the will of a person, but this does not negate the fact that the Bible systematically affirms the ability of humans to make choices.

Lastly, in regard to your claim that "free will" is unscriptural  (i.e. the freedom however limited to make choices), please check out the following link: http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm   It is not only a universalist link, but the longest most thorough exposition of the relation between man's will and God's will that I have ever seen.  It explores both the issue of free-will and its relation to salvation in great detail, and quotes hundreds of passages.  He makes a critical distinction between God ruling man's will directly, and God ruling man's will indirectly via what to the mundane mind are very obscure means.  I agree 100% with what Mr. McKay is saying, and am trying to describe the underlying mechanism.  If you agree with what he says, we have no disagreement about free-will.  If you feel I am saying something different than what Mr. McKay says, I will endeavor to better explain the fundamental agreement between what he says and what I say.  If you disagree with what he says, please come back with a very well thought out rebuttal.  But please, no more tirades.

[studier]

TB, WillieH doesn't believe in free-will. As I said earlier, the understanding of free-will is what is needed to understand TTR. If a person doesn't believe we have free-will and that everything is pre-scripted, then of course they don't believe in TTR. This will go around and around and around because there are people here who strictly deny we had a choice in anything.

[Molly]

wow I stumbled on

"The Divine Matrix: Greg Braden"

on Youtube.com.

It's in at least 11 parts maybe more, I haven't finished listening yet.

This contains all sorts of scientific experiments that are being done these days in this field which are amazing.

Take a look TB--or do you already know this guy?

My finding him can't be a coincidence lol.

This stuff is wild.

[martincisneros]

(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)

Yeah, that was me.  I've got an even bigger one in mind that I'm still working out the algorithms of

Nearly crashed my ship on that one though.  That's all we'd need, huh?  Another Roswell

[Molly]

Google the phantom dna effect.  This article is from newmediaexplorer.org.


"You will be happy to get the news from Gregg Braden, author of The Isaiah Effect and Awakening to the Zero Point. At one of his all-day intensives on Sunday, October 14, 2001, here is only a SMALL portion of the information he covered.

The title of this program was Healing Hearts~Healing Nations: The Science of Peace and the Power of Prayer.

Braden started off discussing how in the past we lost huge amounts of information from ancient spiritual traditions (when the library at Alexandria burned we lost at least 532,000 documents), and that there may be information in those traditions which could help us understand some of the mysteries of science. To this end he reported on three very interesting experiments.

Braden started off as a scientist and engineer, before he began pursuing these larger questions.

 

EXPERIMENT #1

The first experiment he reported was done by Dr. Vladimir Poponin, a quantum biologist. In this experiment, first a container was emptied (i.e., a vacuum was within it), and then the only thing left in it were photons (particles of light).

They measured the distribution (i.e., the location) of the photons and found they were completely random inside the container. This was the expected result. Then some DNA was placed inside the container and the distribution (location) of the photons was remeasured. This time the photons were LINED UP in an ORDERED way and aligned with the DNA. In other words the physical DNA had an effect on the non-physical photons.

After that, the DNA was removed from the container, and the distribution of the photons was remeasured again. The photons REMAINED ORDERED and lined up where the DNA had been. What are the light particles connected to?

Gregg Braden says we are forced to accept the possibility that some NEW field of energy, a web of energy, is there and the DNA is communicating with the photons through this energy.

 

EXPERIMENT #2

These were experiments done by the military. Leukocytes (white blood cells) were collected for DNA from donors and placed into chambers so they could be measure electrical changes. In this experiment, the donor was placed in one room and subjected to "emotional stimulation" consisting of video clips, which generated different emotions in the donor.

The DNA was placed in a different room in the same building. Both the donor and his DNA were monitored and as the donor exhibited emotional peaks or valleys (measured by electrical responses), the DNA exhibited the IDENTICAL RESPONSES AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. There was no lag time, no transmission time. The DNA peaks and valleys EXACTLY MATCHED the peaks and valleys of the donor in time.

The military wanted to see how far away they could separate the donor from his DNA and still get this effect. They stopped testing after they separated the DNA and the donor by 50 miles and STILL had the SAME result. No lag time; no transmission time.

The DNA and the donor had the same identical responses in time. What can this mean?

Gregg Braden says it means that living cells communicate through a previously unrecognized form of energy. This energy is not affected by time and distance. This is a non-local form of energy, an energy that already exists everywhere, all the time.

 

EXPERIMENT #3

The third experiment was done by the Institute of Heart Math and the paper that was about this was titled: Local and Non local Effects of Coherent Heart Frequencies on Conformational Changes of DNA. (Disregard the title! The info is incredible.)

This is the experiment that relates directly to the anthrax situation.

In this experiment, some human placenta DNA (the most pristine form of DNA) was placed in a container from which they could measure changes in the DNA. Twenty-eight vials of DNA were given (one each) to 28 trained researchers. Each researcher had been trained how to generate and FEEL feelings, and they each had strong emotions.

What was discovered was that the DNA CHANGED ITS SHAPE according to the feelings of the researchers:

When the researchers FELT gratitude, love and appreciation, the DNA responded by RELAXING and the strands unwound. The length of the DNA became longer.

When the researchers FELT anger, fear, frustration, or stress, the DNA responded by TIGHTENING UP. It became shorter and SWITCHED OFF many of our DNA codes! If you've ever felt "shut down" by negative emotions, now you know why your body was equally shut down too. The shut down of the DNA codes was reversed and the codes were switched back on again when feelings of love, joy, gratitude and appreciation were felt by the researchers.

This experiment was later followed up by testing HIV positive patients. They discovered that feelings of love, gratitude and appreciation created 300,000 TIMES the RESISTANCE they had without those feelings. So here's the answer to what can help you stay well, no matter what dreadful virus or bacteria may be floating around. Stay in feelings of joy, love, gratitude and appreciation!

These emotional changes went beyond the effects of electromagnetics. Individuals trained in deep love were able to change the shape of their DNA. Braden says this illustrates a new recognized form of energy that connects all of creation.

This energy appears to be a TIGHTLY WOVEN WEB that connects all matter. Essentially we're able to influence this web of creation through our VIBRATION."



Psalm 96:1

O SING to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord, all the earth!

 

[martincisneros]

Google the phantom dna effect.

"You will be happy to get the news from Gregg Braden, author of The Isaiah Effect and Awakening to the Zero Point. At one of his all-day intensives on Sunday, October 14, 2001, here is only a SMALL portion of the information he covered.

The title of this program was Healing Hearts~Healing Nations: The Science of Peace and the Power of Prayer.

Braden started off discussing how in the past we lost huge amounts of information from ancient spiritual traditions (when the library at Alexandria burned we lost at least 532,000 documents), and that there may be information in those traditions which could help us understand some of the mysteries of science. To this end he reported on three very interesting experiments.

Braden started off as a scientist and engineer, before he began pursuing these larger questions.

EXPERIMENT #1

The first experiment he reported was done by Dr. Vladimir Poponin, a quantum biologist. In this experiment, first a container was emptied (i.e., a vacuum was within it), and then the only thing left in it were photons (particles of light).

They measured the distribution (i.e., the location) of the photons and found they were completely random inside the container. This was the expected result. Then some DNA was placed inside the container and the distribution (location) of the photons was remeasured. This time the photons were LINED UP in an ORDERED way and aligned with the DNA. In other words the physical DNA had an effect on the non-physical photons.

After that, the DNA was removed from the container, and the distribution of the photons was remeasured again. The photons REMAINED ORDERED and lined up where the DNA had been. What are the light particles connected to?

Gregg Braden says we are forced to accept the possibility that some NEW field of energy, a web of energy, is there and the DNA is communicating with the photons through this energy.

EXPERIMENT #2

These were experiments done by the military. Leukocytes (white blood cells) were collected for DNA from donors and placed into chambers so they could be measure electrical changes. In this experiment, the donor was placed in one room and subjected to "emotional stimulation" consisting of video clips, which generated different emotions in the donor.

The DNA was placed in a different room in the same building. Both the donor and his DNA were monitored and as the donor exhibited emotional peaks or valleys (measured by electrical responses), the DNA exhibited the IDENTICAL RESPONSES AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. There was no lag time, no transmission time. The DNA peaks and valleys EXACTLY MATCHED the peaks and valleys of the donor in time.

The military wanted to see how far away they could separate the donor from his DNA and still get this effect. They stopped testing after they separated the DNA and the donor by 50 miles and STILL had the SAME result. No lag time; no transmission time.

The DNA and the donor had the same identical responses in time. What can this mean?

Gregg Braden says it means that living cells communicate through a previously unrecognized form of energy. This energy is not affected by time and distance. This is a non-local form of energy, an energy that already exists everywhere, all the time.

EXPERIMENT #3

The third experiment was done by the Institute of Heart Math and the paper that was about this was titled: Local and Non local Effects of Coherent Heart Frequencies on Conformational Changes of DNA. (Disregard the title! The info is incredible.)

This is the experiment that relates directly to the anthrax situation.

In this experiment, some human placenta DNA (the most pristine form of DNA) was placed in a container from which they could measure changes in the DNA. Twenty-eight vials of DNA were given (one each) to 28 trained researchers. Each researcher had been trained how to generate and FEEL feelings, and they each had strong emotions.

What was discovered was that the DNA CHANGED ITS SHAPE according to the feelings of the researchers:

When the researchers FELT gratitude, love and appreciation, the DNA responded by RELAXING and the strands unwound. The length of the DNA became longer.

When the researchers FELT anger, fear, frustration, or stress, the DNA responded by TIGHTENING UP. It became shorter and SWITCHED OFF many of our DNA codes! If you've ever felt "shut down" by negative emotions, now you know why your body was equally shut down too. The shut down of the DNA codes was reversed and the codes were switched back on again when feelings of love, joy, gratitude and appreciation were felt by the researchers.

This experiment was later followed up by testing HIV positive patients. They discovered that feelings of love, gratitude and appreciation created 300,000 TIMES the RESISTANCE they had without those feelings. So here's the answer to what can help you stay well, no matter what dreadful virus or bacteria may be floating around. Stay in feelings of joy, love, gratitude and appreciation!

These emotional changes went beyond the effects of electromagnetics. Individuals trained in deep love were able to change the shape of their DNA. Braden says this illustrates a new recognized form of energy that connects all of creation.

This energy appears to be a TIGHTLY WOVEN WEB that connects all matter. Essentially we're able to influence this web of creation through our VIBRATION."

Psalm 96:1

O SING to the Lord a new song, sing to the Lord, all the earth!

Best UR message I've heard in a while

He upholds all things by the Word of His power, and Colossians 1 says that all things were created in Christ.

[pneuma]

Pneuma
Therefore in this time line I do not need God, do not need Jesus, do not need the Holy Spirit and can live like the devil, why? Because in another time line I have already overcome and this time line will be taken from my memory and changed by the time line in which I did need God did need Jesus did need the Holy Spirit and walked in a holy life.

TB
I am not advocating this attitude at all. In fact, if you live like the devil you will burn in Hell. But as per the entire concept of universal salvation, Jesus will eventually heed your request for a chance to correct your mistakes. None the less, it is much better to cultivate mutability of the past by walking the holy life now than it is to wait until after we are dead.

Hi TB, you might not be advocating what I said above but that's what the scenario of multiple time lines lead to. According to this multiple time line theory one does not need Christ in this time line because in another time line he has already accepted Christ, which changed ones past and erased ones memory of the time line we understand and walk in right now.

In your post to Willie you also mention free will, and say you beleive in man having a free will, I agree man does have a free will.

But according to your scenario of multiple time lines there is no such thing as free will.
For if I make a choice to sin in this time line and in another time line make the choice not to sin and the choice not to sin CHANGES my past in the first time line I never really made the choice to sin in the first place. Thus my will in the first line was no will at all.

Thus if I have to burn in hell, as you put it, if I reject Christ in this time line yet in another time line I walked into the heavenly realm, and that walking into the heavenly realm, CHANGED the first time line, in the first time line I never burned in hell anyway.

If one past is CHANGED in one time line, because of different choice in another time line, how can you say we have free will in this time line?

Sorry TB but this theory is just circular, for if I do not choose Christ in this time line and in another time line I do choose Christ, who picks which time line erases the past of which time line. How can you say the time line in which I did choose Christ changes the past of the time line where I did not choose Christ and not the other way around?

And if you say God determines which time line CHANGES which then free will is an illusion just as some believe. 

So instead of this theory preaching the salvation of all, it actually comes full circle and can be used to preach eternal torment.

[Paul Hazelwood]

am not advocating this attitude at all.  In fact, if you live like the devil you will burn in Hell.  But as per the entire concept of universal salvation, Jesus will eventually heed your request for a chance to correct your mistakes.

If this is what the theory advocates, then it contradicts Jesus Choosing us.   You can advocate free will all you want, but this goes beyond freedom within a set of boundries.  It also contradicts the scriptures that tell us the carnal mind is unable to want to correct ourselves to the path of Gods law.

Of course if the theory demands that there will be different versions of the bible then a biblical refutation is irrevalent.  And making the bible irrevalent is indeed what this theory appears to be doing and what mysticism does.

If a person cannot refute a theory without being accused of holding too dearly to the bible then it is a stacked deck intended to slight a devotion to Gods written word with the thought  that Gods word is not "really" needed.

If you want to say I have rejected it without enough thought that is fine, there are certain things that I have to stand on in my life and telling me that I am in bondage because I do not embrace this theory doesn't mean anything because you have not demonstrated exactly what that bondage actually is.

To claim that someone has misrepresented scripture is no different than at ET believer who throws out the context card.  If the bible in indeed Gods word manifest in the physical form then the idea that God draws us and Jesus chooses us cannot be changed to the freedom of our will being solid and God sits out there ready to "heed" our request.   

There are contradictions out there that are resolved by someone stating that "oh they do not believe in free will the way I do" so they will never agree.   But I think the problem is that if you stick whole heartedly to scripture then the theory breaks down.  It's saving grace is the concept that there will be alterations to the bible in different timelines. At that point the theory reveals its purpose.  To disintegrate the written word.


Think what you want of me, I have heard enough for now.

[joyful1]

Google the phantom dna effect.  This article is from newmediaexplorer.org.

 In this experiment, first a container was emptied (i.e., a vacuum was within it), and then the only thing left in it were photons (particles of light).....

 Twenty-eight vials of DNA were given (one each) to 28 trained researchers. Each researcher had been trained how to generate and FEEL feelings, and they each had strong emotions.

What was discovered was that the DNA CHANGED ITS SHAPE according to the feelings of the researchers:

When the researchers FELT gratitude, love and appreciation, the DNA responded by RELAXING ...

yeah, I was hooked up to a washing machine once...also an electric stove and a vacuum cleaner .....I had really STRONG feelings about that phase in my life....funny you should mention the results of those experiments, Molly, because MY DNA CHANGED IT'S shape too according to my feelings as well! I think the chocolate had a little something to do with it though....Then one day, I trained myself in about 28 mins. how to disconnect from the vacuum cleaner and the washing mach, but NOT the electric stove. And lo and behold! my DNA changed shape even further! Amazing! I was just wondering, Molly, if you'd done any experiments of your own along these lines? I'm feeling much more love and gratitude for myself these days...and also very relaxed!
Joyce :)

[Molly]

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear-headed
science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research
about the atoms this much: There is no matter as such! All matter
originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of
an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom
together . . . We must assume behind this force the existence of a
conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."

- Nobel Prize-winning physicist Max Planck, from a speech he delivered in
Florence, Italy in 1944, entitled "Das Wesen der Materie" (The Character
of Matter)



1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.


--Hebrews 1

 

[studier]

Pneuma and Paul,

TB answered some of those questions already when I said the reservation I hold, and why I do not completely believe in TTR, is the importance of Jesus Christ. At the same time, I can see what you are saying, and I see the misunderstanding of what TB says and what you are thinking he is saying.  So I believe you are going to need to slow down because you are already refuting something that TB has already said he doesn't believe. This discussion is going to require a lot of patience on both sides.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Gregg Braden says we are forced to accept the possibility that some NEW field of energy, a web of energy, is there and the DNA is communicating with the photons through this energy.

This is very interesting Molly.

I had a discussion a while back with a devout Atheist,  that is my term, Atheists really deny that they are devoted to Atheism, lol.   But anyway,  my speculation was that even though we can believe that the energy is something that is created as believers.  Science cannot demonstrate that energy was created.  

I then considered the possibility that God is energy or something like energy and we just do not necessarily have the capability to recognize it as "God".  This person then stood on a foundation that contradicts what science should be known to stand for and that is to detect error rather than promote "truth".   This person stood on the foundation that science has discovered all the forms of energy that there ever could be.  The method of science may not be the end all of what we each can individually know, but, it indeed is misrepresented if anyone tries to use it for the sake of a stone foundation of immovable truth.

This discussion was talking about Jesus miracles, and in reality this man was offended that I saw a road map in science that coincides with the bible.    As far as this thread goes, I can entertain all kinds of things until these things begin to break down the fabric of Gods word.  Whether we can surmise that God only gives us the written word because of our state of being or not,  there  is a reality that we still have the written word "because" this state we are in is necessary and "must" happen because it is happening.    

Now, this person I was discussing this with maintained that conversion of energy it would take to make water into wine was so ridiculous that if it did happen the resulting thermodynamic explosion would wipe out all existance.

The point he was making is that a belief in God is fine as long as you do not start saying that science can be used to validate Gods existance.   However, he uses science to maintain his belief by only saying something that is peer reviewed and ends up in a school text book is the only real and valid science.

All of this ignores the theories that some dramatic energy conversion can take place on a low energy level.  The DNA experiment you spoke of above is a good example of a concept (not this specific experiment) that was once theorized to violate the laws of thermodynamics (such as water to wine).  Yet it gives evidence that the presence of the "right combination" of energy can change something very dramatically.

None of these things can contradict scripture and it aligns very well.  It also is a more viable indication of Gods correcting properties in our life according to the lack of control that can be interpreted biblically.


When it comes down to it, I really do want truth,  some truths, yes, are difficult to swallow and that goes to both sides.   Those that embrace an intrique because it makes their faith less mundane and repetetive should be cautious as well.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Pneuma and Paul,

TB answered some of those questions already when I said the reservation I hold, and why I do not completely believe in TTR, is the importance of Jesus Christ. At the same time, I can see what you are saying, and I see the misunderstanding of what TB says and what you are thinking he is saying.  So I believe you are going to need to slow down because you are already refuting something that TB has already said he doesn't believe. This discussion is going to require a lot of patience on both sides.

I apologize if I have not read closely enough.  I only make the point that I can only go so far with my thinking when the suggestion looks like I cannot trust the written word because time lines can change it.   At that point, the score card is against anyone wanting to biblically refute something which has been asked.

I am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

[Molly]

More Greg Braden.

It's looking like our DNA is some kind of living superconductor.  We are able to communicate remotely with others world wide.  A small group of people can effectively change the emotional climate of all.  Greg says the size of this group is found to be the square root of 1 percent of the total.  So for 6 billion people, only 8000 praying for peace and feeling joy and peace and love in their hearts for the world  can change the world!  As soon as they stop, the effect ceases.  So they have to keep doing it without cease to effect a continuous change.

There is an intelligent field (matrix) which connects everything.  Also, the emotions that we feel in our hearts is the language that speaks to this field.



16Rejoice evermore.

 17Pray without ceasing.

 18In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

--1 Thes 5



1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

--Rom 12


Is this the fruit for the healing of the nations?

[Molly]

The God code.  Greg Braden.


The genetic code in our DNA can literally be translated into ancient biblical Hebrew and Arabic (and working on Sanskrit).  The Hebrew language is the language that links over 1/2 of the world's spiritual traditions. 

How does this mathematic link work?  The bottom line is that the DNA in our body appears to be a library that exists in layers, and every layer has a different key to translate it.  We have translated the first layer, which is the introduction to the book of DNA.

The first message translated from DNA:

"God eternal within the body."


 


Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig...

Because of our past lack of successful interaction, ...I carefully enter into convo with you brother...  however, ...you directly address me, which prompts the necessity of a reply... 

WilliH,

This is a constant problem when something 'new' (new to the person recieving it, not new idea at all) is presented. The person will rejected right away on the basis that it is different from what they knew.  I have to make this note, everything including TRADITIONAL interpretation of God's Will is CONJECTURE. The more you deny the possibility based on your opinions on what is conjecture and sci-fi and other imaginative qualities, the more you must apply this to your belief and realize that it is also conjecture.

Your belief might be CONJECTURE, and are welcome to note it to be so, as it is YOUR BELIEF... but you have not the ability nor the right to note MY BELIEF as such, for you cannot KNOW any such thing...      For YOU do not determine MY BELIEFS and YOU do not even KNOW their extent... 

I do not know the extent of TB's actual beliefs, so as is the case, I am "zeroed in" on THIS particular aspect of his "beliefs", as compared to the WORD we have to compare them to...

TB's belief in Trans-TR is in direct OPPOSITION to the WORD which we have to compare it to, and I have duly noted that OPPOSITION... for what he proposes in that OTHER (theorized) version of the WORD, is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the one we have in THIS life...

It astounds me that a scholar of your level is so easily mislead...

Like has been previously stated... this is the "gospel" according to Roddenberry...

That is why, instead of condemning a view because you feel or think or believe it is not true, you should be demonstrating why your view is true and compare those two views and point out the rational error in the view that disagrees with you. Everything you presented does not address what TB wrote, it is just your opinion of what you think TB wrote and your hasty generalization that what he presents is sci-fi.

First... Obviously you are not reading my responses to TB and are therefore HASTILY remarking accordingly! 

In answering to the portion of your commentary in red above, ...I have already done so brother (*pointed out his error rationally, with the WORD) and unfortunately, ...somehow you have missed it Craig... so just drop down a few lines and see "Third" below...

Second... The above noted in blue is foolish.  You endeavor to apply this to me, but if it is so... it is also applied to everyone commenting, including you.  All of our individual viewpoints must by necessity be our "opinions" as well... 

Third... If you have read my responses to TB... then you KNOW that I have already RATIONALLY addressed his proposal, to which he AVOIDS answering... (as do you) ...that being:

In ONE "timeline" the WORD of TRUTH says:  IN ADAM ALL DIE... and CHRIST is necessary for DELIVERANCE from DEATH... (THEN it is PROPOSED by TB),

In "a subsequent timeline"   An alternate outcome is proposed, that being:  IN ADAM ALL LIVE ...in this, TB has noted --- Adam finally "getting it right", as GOD places the fruit before him and FINALLY he DOES NOT EAT)...

This proposal thereby, ...ELIMINATES CHRIST, ...ELIMINATES DEATH, ...ELIMINATES DELIVERANCE, ...and finally OPPOSES the WORD noted in THIS timeline to be FALSE (noting that In ADAM ALL LIVE)... 

Within its process, it is indicated that there is BOTH... VARIANCE in GOD and His "WORD", ...and denoting that the WORD in THIS LIFE (In Adam ALL DIE - 1 Cor 15:22) is in fact a LIE... for in TB's proposed "coming timeline"  IN ADAM ALL LIVE...

Fourth...  In the TIMELINE in which TB proposes that IN ADAM ALL LIVE (which eliminates our Savior -- for NO SAVIOR is needed in this one)... and ALL memory is erased of THIS "TIMELINE" and ALL others in which EVIL existed... then GOD has put us HIS SON and ALL the rest of us through terrible ANGUISH, SUFFERING and SORROW for NOTHING...

You are welcome to buy, this cr*p Craig... I do not... 

I spoke with my family concerning this, pastors of 25 years. Though my mother did not accept it for her own reasons, she was honest enough to realize that it is possible. My father, though did not accept it for his own reasons, has a very simular view of how it works in which both TTR and his view have agreeable tenants which could make it true. There was no condemnation of the view, htere was no down right rejection of the view, every person had their opinion and stated what they believed and by the facts, arguments and conclusions, one could make up their own mind what is true and what is not true.

You wish to remove this right from ME dood (mind/opinion/conclusion)!  ...I have made up my mind (via comparison of TB's proposal to the WORD) what is TRUE... that you do not accept it,  ...matters NOT to me brother...

I could give many more instances where the WORD (which I believe to contain TRUTH), and which is given to us in THIS LIFETIME... as COMPLETELY CONTRARY to TB's "Trans-TR"...

Matter of fact the entire BIBLE is CONTRARY to it... you are welcome to accept the LEVEN presented here, have your fill of it, if you will... but I will display that it is an endangerment even to consider... for a "little leven, leveneth the WHOLE LUMP"... believe what you will Craig...

Everything else, casts doubt on your own belief as being conjecture and a figment of your imagination... and that is a road you do not want to go down.

Craig

   There isn't much YOU can say to sway me, and vice-versa... You are welcome to DOUBT what I believe... it does not matter to me in the least. You should know this by now bro...   

But you are left with the burden of proving that in one "timeline" the "TRUTH" is that IN ADAM ALL DIE... and CHRIST is SAVIOR... and in the other suggested by TB... the "TRUTH" is that IN ADAM ALL LIVE, and thereby deletes CHRIST... along with ALL MEMORY of THIS LIFETIME... 

If you can...

RECONCILE the FOLLOWING:

RATIONALLY Prove to me:

(1)  How GOD's WORD, is found to be  TRUTH in BOTH "timeline" scenarios (Adam eating/not eating) ...and,

(2)  How GOD and HIS WORD, ...does NOT CHANGE or VARY within TB's proposal of multiple "timelines".  And,

(3) How the "eventual obedience of Adam" affects JESUS CHRIST as a SAVIOR without a job...   

For if "ADAM (in a "timeline" to come) doesn't EAT"... then NO SAVIOR is necessary, for NO DEATH is ever seen or KNOWN, ...And because TB successfully removes ALL MEMORY of THIS "timeline" (Is 65:17)... 

Which action, removes the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, and places us back to the beginning of this VAIN, SUFFERING and UNREASONABLE existence...

Thanks... 

peacE...
...willieH 

[True Believer]

Martin,

I'd like to go for a spin in your saucer.  You up to it?  Also, what are your thoughts on my idea that the many worlds of quantum mechanics and parallel timelines are two ways of looking at the same thing?


Molly,

Thanks for sharing the experiments, and I'm sure there are many more.  I have heard of Greg Braden before but since he's open to many aspects of New Age belief, many Christians would find him a bit unorthodox.  He has a lot of interesting information and some useful insights, and has assembled some of the best evidence for "paranormal" phenomena that exists.  The more we look at this kind of evidence from a scientific perspective, the more it becomes clear that the only really good explanation is an ordered, time-symmetric system of what could best be called parallel timelines or many worlds.  Since the focus of this board is Biblical, I've refrained from going into the science, but I find it ironic if not tragic that so many Christians fail to see the deeper logic that is at the very heart of the Bible despite it being the one thing that would overturn scientific materialism once and for all.   But I have faith the Lord will clear the way for this deeper truth.

Pneuma, Paul,

Thank you for your feedback and for trying to follow what I am saying.  Before discussing the paradox of free will and predestination, please note I am not in any way: a) devaluing the Bible, nor b) saying that we can not trust the Bible, nor c) saying that the Bible can change via the flow of mundane time.  In this regard, the physical manifestation of the Bible in alternate timelines (and/or on alien planets) is not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand.  I bring it up solely to emphasize what I feel God could do if God wanted to without any conflict whatsoever with the principle of God not changing, for it would be a projection (or viewpoint) of God that is changing not God.  Nor is there any reason to be concerned if our movement sideways in time resulted in a change to the Bible — for the simple reason that a change of this sort happens without any knowledge on our part whatsoever because our memories and printed records have changed too, in which case we rightfully trust the changed Bible without even being aware of the change.  And as the Church matures in the higher dimension of time, I see no reason why God could not shift the message accordingly, much as the students of a school get a slightly different message at each grade level.

In regard to the seeming paradox between freewill and predestination, Pneuma came very close to hitting the nail on the head when he said:

In your post to Willie you also mention free will, and say you believe in man having a free will, I agree man does have a free will.

And if you say God determines which time line CHANGES which then free will is an illusion just as some believe.

In short, there is a paradox to the mundane mind that can be overcome via the Grace of Sprit if we sufficiently deepen our study of the Bible.  In this regard, I do claim that our own will can to a degree further or retard the Grace of the Lord within a host of scripturally affirmed constraints and that our effort to explore the deeper logic of the Bible is a worthwhile use of our mundane will.  In regard to scriptural backing, I defer to both http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm, a file with hundreds of scriptural references that deal with the relation of man's will and God's Will, and the file http://sigler.org/shofar/1997no5.htm that further emphasizes the point that in some circumstances, man can resist God for a time. 

Please let me clarify the exact Biblical message, by deepening the metaphor of the Wind that I used in my earlier discussion with Molly and WhiteWings to describe the action of the Holy Spirit.  This will be presented in detail in my next post, but for now, please note that the first sign of the Holy Spirit on the day of the Pentecost was "a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting."  Acts 2:2 NIV  I will use this metaphor and try to describe the "mechanism" of how man's will and God's Will interact in a way that is 100% compatible with the two detailed scriptural expositions listed above. 

P.S.

Paul,

In regard to this issue,

If a person cannot refute a theory without being accused of holding too dearly to the bible then it is a stacked deck intended to slight a devotion to Gods written word with the thought  that Gods word is not "really" needed.

Please note that Willie misquoted the Bible in a blatant way in so doing very obviously mistook the Bible for God.  This is the very definition of bibliolatry.  Please look carefully at the part of his message that I quoted.

[studier]

I am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

That is because WillieH put his foot down almost right off the bat without biblical support for his disagreeent and then demanded TB to repent and the proceeded to use Scripture in a fashion which had nothing to do with what TB presented and TB was only pointing this out. If I did what WillieH does, I would be getting a phone call from Gary.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

That is because WillieH put his foot down almost right off the bat without biblical support for his disagreeent and then demanded TB to repent and the proceeded to use Scripture in a fashion which had nothing to do with what TB presented and TB was only pointing this out.

I stand corrected on that

[Paul Hazelwood]

And as the Church matures in the higher dimension of time, I see no reason why God could not shift the message accordingly, much as the students of a school get a slightly different message at each grade level.

I am not going to disregaurd the theory completely, I've had a chance to take a breath and get off my initial defense mechanism that I work daily on.

I find there is truth in about everything, but something in particular does not contain the "whole truth".   For instance, I do believe everything in the bible is true,  but doubtfully everything I believe it "means" is true.   I see some things that make sense within the theory and others cause me a great deal of concern.  No bother, none of that validates or invalidates it.   But in regaurds to your analogy in relationship to a message shift, from kindergarten to high school 2+2=4, there is more,  but I do not believe there is "different".   The LAW of Gravity remains  undisputed, but we have found that there is more, the theoretical "more" has not invalidated the LAW.

I believe there is more to God than what is contained in the bible, I just do not see the "more"  changing what we have. 

If this is more along the lines of the reality of this message shift then lets build upon that.  If not then possibly shift your analogy to something more suitable to help me understand.

Take care

Paul

[willieH]

willieH: Hi TB... 

Willie,

I too agree that you are a brother in Christ, but as you say: "when it comes to your WORDS, that is an entirely different matter..." In particular, I ask that you not misquote scripture, or make inconsistent or strawman arguments in your haste to rebut me.

This statement/request is irrelevant unless you note that which you consider as "strawman"...

The WORD states that there is NO VARIANCE in the WORD... (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) so it is YOU which challenge the statements of the Bible, not me...

If the WORD says that It does NOT VARY (James 1:17)... and that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (Mal 3:6), and that GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1:2)...

First, an absolutely unchanging God could preside over octillions of versions of history with octillions of different but otherwise invariant versions of the Bible.  This possibility has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the question of whether or not God changes.  As such, your reference to the variance of God is a pure strawman argument.

I beg to differ... in order to prove TRUTH, you must come INTO THE LIGHT... the LIGHT we have is found in the WORD...

There is so much in OPPOSITION of the BIBLE to your proposal, I could name Scripture all day, as the list is literally endless, ...but for the sake of brevity here are just a FEW:

The WORD we do have... states:

1.  that IN ADAM ALL DIE (1 Cor 15:22) ...

2.  that it is APPOINTED to MAN ...ONCE to DIE (Heb 9:27) ...

3.  that JESUS CHRIST is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN (1 Tim 4:10)... 

4.  that CHRIST died for REDEMPTION from SIN:  but we see JESUS who was made a little lower than the angels for the SUFFERING of DEATH... (Heb 2:9)...

5.  that SIN was something that necessitated a SAVIOR: Behold the Lamb of GOD which TAKETH AWAY, ...the SIN of the WORLD (John 1:29)

these and many other Biblical statements are rendered as FALSE reports by your proposal... as you propose that somewhere in myriads of phantom "timelines" that ADAM "gets it right", and thereby notes all the above verses as FALSE... and that they NEVER occured, which is a LIE for we ARE living in this life, and we ARE experiencing these verses...

(1)  In another "timeline" you propose that Adam does NOT EAT... which means SIN never occurs... which negates (1 Cor 15:22), and also means that

(2)  That the BIBLICAL statement that:  it is APPOINTED to MAN ...ONCE... to die (Heb 9:27) is also NEGATED... and further means that...

(3)  Men never SIN, so there is no need for CHRIST to SAVE them, from something that NEVER occured... negating the Biblical statement (1 Tim 4:10).... we trust in the LIVING GOD, who ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN...

(4)  That ADAM does not EAT, negates that CHRIST must DIE, removing HIM and THE GLORY of His deed (Heb 2:9)

(5)  That is was NOT necessary for the Lamb to TAKE AWAY, that which NEVER occured... (John 1:29)

You continue to avoid the question... that the WORD we have (which is the Bible), proposes as TRUTH... that:  IN ADAM ALL DIE... (1 Cor 15:22)  ...yet, YOU PROPOSE in another "timeline" that this is NOT SO... and remove the need for a SAVIOR, which irreverently reverts CHRIST to the unemployment line...

The real issue is whether you are willing to accept the quantum logic that God uses in the design and operation of reality, or whether you are going to reject quantum logic and remain ensnared in linear/worldly logic.  Again, I ask you to consider the possibility that the transcendence of God is so great that this multiplicity might be possible.

Ya-know... You are so immersed in your "contrived" knowledge, that you have convinced yourself it is FACT... and that GOD is operating according to YOU and YOUR vision of "quantum logic" (unbiblical - unproven)...

Mulitplicity is UNNECESSARY dude... GOD is able to conclude ONE PLAN even though He is capable of COMPLICATING it beyone ANY COMPREHENSION (even yours!)...

This is getting to be a waste of my time... You base yourself upon your OWN WORDS... I have presented many Scriptural questions which you avoid because you have no answers...

I reject that GOD double talks (or, according to you "octillion" talks)... which is exactly what you propose... It is getting to the point where your continuous avoidance of my questions of you, only verifies the FALSEHOOD of your proposal...

Second, Heb 13:8 / James 1:17 talk about the invariance of God, not about the invariance of the printed word, and as such you have misquoted scripture in a fundamental way.  Please note that I am not advocating variance of the scripture in any mundane sense, but I am making a careful distinction between the transcendent WORD that is Jesus, and printed word that we read from.  And since you are obviously confusing these in your thinking, I rightfully accuse you of bibliolatry, something that I see closely related to your rejection of quantum logic.

Ah... I knew it was coming... the ACCUSER in you has finally shown up and is IN PRINT, openly admitted and stated, ...by YOU... 

(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His CHRIST, for the ...ACCUSER... of our brethren is CAST DOWN, which ACCUSED them before our God, day and night

That I hold the ONLY information that we have (the Bible) of the WILL and PURPOSE of the Creator is not "bibliolatry" ( )  Please!

Bibliolatry is one STANDING upon the LETTER of the Bible...

If anyone is doing this it is YOU... 

I see the Bible as a SPIRITUAL writing, which is SPIRITUALLY understood.  And have given you SPIRITUAL insight already in this conversation which opposed your LITERAL view (letter of the word)...  In my explanation of the NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH... which you LITERALLY expect to come in one YOUR "timelines"... 

Third, I have never ever accused God of lying.  In fact, I have used the truthfulness of God as a premise for what I consider to be a reasonable interpretation of scripture.  In this regard, I believe the implication of free-will is so strong within the Bible that I use the premise of God not telling a lie to assert that it is a scriptural concept.  More on this below.

IMPLICATION?  Choice is not FREE WILL... FREE WILL is a WILL which is FREE of ANY confinement!  The Word which you ACCUSE me of holding to the LETTER, is FREE of your IMPLICATION!  For there is NO notation of the WILL of man to be FREE... on the contrary... It is FROM the BONDAGE of "our WILL" that the TRUTH makes us FREE... (John 8:32)

Paul teaches that we be TRANSFORMED by the RENEWING of our MIND (Rom 12:1-2)... and that "renewing" is done by DIEING DAILY to OURSELVES (will), ABANDONING "our [imprisoned] will, and submitting to the WILL of GOD...

This is already beginning to weary me... but because God shall propose an "if/else" prophecy... does NOT conclude there are multiple pathways... It only states that one pathway can lead here, ...and the other -- there.

Fourth, this statement is totally inconsistent in that first you say that we can not conclude that there are multiple pathways, and then you state that one pathway leads here, and the other there.

You lift out the contextual element in my quote... I plainly explained that 2 potential DESTINYS are not set before one, just because 2 things are placed before one.

For the slow of mind, I said, that because a scientific warning is made that ARSENIC will kill you IF ingested... does not mean that you will either INGEST or ABSTAIN... thereby 2 destinys set before you!  Please...

That is the same breed of nonsense as:  You better not eat CARROTS, because everyone that ever ATE CARROTS... eventually DIED... naming CARROTS a KILLER... 

Yes from a mundane perspective they are hypothetical pathways.  But unless you are going to say that man has no freedom whatsoever to choose between one hypothetical path and another, the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of every hypothetical pathway that humans might choose, something which necessarily implies the existence of multiple timelines even if they are only "hypothetical" from a mundane perspective.  From a quantum perspective, however, they are not hypothetical.

It is you that have become MUNDANE dear TB... so INTELLECTUAL that you are unable to grasp the simple truth that GOD is SOVEREIGN, for if He IS, than it destroys your "FREE WILL" and demotes your PROPOSAL to carnal nonsense created in your own imagination...

Hypothetical cr*p is just that...FANTASY, ...NOT REALITY... You glorify yourself with your "hypothesis" of multiple timelines, but find yourself ALIVE in only ONE... 

Never KNOWING in the end, whether or not any of those "timelines" ever existed because you believe that GOD shall ERASE from your memory, everything...  --  

And thereby ALL this (this reality) and ALL THAT (unfounded, unproven multiple "timelines"), are just found floating in the FUTILITY of the ..."to be completely ERASED" ...mists of CONFUSION...   

Get over yourself dude... you cannot defeat simplicity with complexity... you only wrap yourself up within its web, and only GOD can release you from its bonds...

And before you jump out of the frying pan and into the fire by totally denying the human freedom to make choices, please note that there are dozens if not hundreds of references in the Bible to words like "will," "willingly," "voluntary," and "choose."   Indeed the very word "freewill" is itself in the Bible.   Go check it out at the Crosswalk Hebrew Lexicon: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/  Granted not every use of these words is a reference to the human ability to choose, and further granted that the Spirit of God sometimes influences the will of a person, but this does not negate the fact that the Bible systematically affirms the ability of humans to make choices.

Hold on to yourself TB... for you, and many others which shall LOSE what you fight to hold on to...

Dogs choose... computers choose... do they have FREE WILL? 

We "choose" according to that which YHVH DECLARED that we CHOOSE... (Is 46:10-11)

Whilst you cling to YOU,  ...I shall submit unto HIM, knowing my pathway has PURPOSE according to HIM, and knowing that pathway is outlined by HIM, not me... as Scripture notes in several places (Rom 9:16 / Prov 20:24 / Jer 10:23)

Lastly, in regard to your claim that "free will" is unscriptural  (i.e. the freedom however limited to make choices), please check out the following link: http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/FWHRWILL.htm   It is not only a universalist link, but the longest most thorough exposition of the relation between man's will and God's will that I have ever seen.  It explores both the issue of free-will and its relation to salvation in great detail, and quotes hundreds of passages.  He makes a critical distinction between God ruling man's will directly, and God ruling man's will indirectly via what to the mundane mind are very obscure means.  I agree 100% with what Mr. McKay is saying, and am trying to describe the underlying mechanism.  If you agree with what he says, we have no disagreement about free-will.  If you feel I am saying something different than what Mr. McKay says, I will endeavor to better explain the fundamental agreement between what he says and what I say.  If you disagree with what he says, please come back with a very well thought out rebuttal.  But please, no more tirades.

It is quite an assumption on your part that I would find any interest in some "man's" view of "FREE WILL"... I am not the least bit interested in this...

I have already found an answer from GOD's WORD concerning this issue, and  the imprisoned viewpoints of men (including yours), fall far short of that truth...

You are quite welcome to invest your faith in Mr. McKay... as for me, I shall continue to search the Scripture (not man's opinions) for TRUTH...

As far as "TIRADES"... Please!  ...unfounded exaggeration... 

You herein you erect your "Strawman" my friend, unable to respond to my questions of you... and finding that I have answers to yours... ACCUSING me along the way... Like I said my new friend, get over yourself...

JESUS doesn't accuse... MEN do... (John 8:10)

That I disagree with you and your foolishness, is hardly a TIRADE... 

peacE...
...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig... 

I am already seeing an accusation towards willie for holding to the written word too closely.  If indeed I have misunderstood this, then I will stand corrected and I do apologize if I am hindering this discussion in a premature manner.

That is because WillieH put his foot down almost right off the bat without biblical support for his disagreeent and then demanded TB to repent and the proceeded to use Scripture in a fashion which had nothing to do with what TB presented and TB was only pointing this out. If I did what WillieH does, I would be getting a phone call from Gary.

Craig... you are here seen, as a bull in a china shop bro... I never demanded any such repentence from TB... It is HE which demanded it of ME... HERE:

[quote author=True Believer link=topic=3121.msg32117#msg32117
Even if we switch to another timeline by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible and all our memories and printed copies of the Bible change in synch, who are we to complain.  If God wants to keep it the same or change it He can, because He is in charge.  Your idea that the transcendent Truth of the transcendent Word must show up in the exact same printed form in each version of history is a naked attempt to constrain the Power and Sovereignty of God.  Please repent.[/quote]

In my response to him, I recommended it back to him... but also noted that repentence is a LEADING of GOD, (Rom 2:4) ...not a recommendation of any man... (myself to him, ...or him to me, ...or even YOU to me for that matter!)

Secondly... You continue to avoid my questions just as does TB... birds of a feather - eh?

Quit whining about Gary, and answer my questions brother... then you shall show what you either do... or don't know... 

Reconcile TB's 2 proposed "timelines" ...as BOTH being ...truth...

Do ALL DIE or LIVE in ADAM? 

Is CHRIST a SAVIOR or not? 

Did ADAM eat or not?

Did CHRIST take away SIN or not?

Well? 

My Bible says ALL DIE in ADAM... it says CHRIST IS the Savior of all, and ADAM, ...DID EAT!  CHRIST DID DIE to redeem from SIN!  ...What does YOURS say?

The Bible according to TB is that GOD speaks with a forked tongue... and that TRUTH is not a FIRM CONSTANT, rather is established upon whatever GOD says it is in different VARYING "timelines"...

Furthermore, that in the end, ALL timelines" are buried in the sand of an AMNESIAC plan that concludes that ALL shall be FORGOTTEN... what a load of BS... You are welcome to it... 

peacE...
...willieH 

[studier]

You are still thinking linearly WillieH. All the 'objections' you have, are true objections found in TB's TTR theology. The problem is the continuation of applying a linear timeline to a God that transcends all time and creation.