Author Topic: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism  (Read 15624 times)

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pneuma

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2008, 03:31:54 AM »
Craig

I can only speak for mine, or maybe a few others..but when one talks over my head by not using common day language ,I dont even understand what people are talking about...just like willie..sometime "I dont spoke ok" ya know

You talk of teachers....teachers communicate...thats the ART of teaching..or else ones knowledge is purely a puff of wind Bro...

If you desire TO TEACH then LEARN to REACH where PEOPLE ARE AT( or continue to discuss with those to where your at)...I found it helped our four children when they were young....Tis easier to COME DOWN , than for the young to REACH up BRO.

Id love to know whats being presented...and its not from reading the thread a few times...

just my veiw Craig...each to their own bro
 :icon_flower:



Hi bro I agree with you, but Craig also has a good point.

The only thing I would suggest is once the teacher has spoken and others have said thats to confusing it then become the teachers duty to meet the other where they live, becoming all things to all men as it were.


joyful1

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2008, 05:41:20 AM »
True Believer--
Your metaphor of the molecules of air in the wind seems to allude to the premise that men can resist in various time lines the overall motion of the wind/Holy Spirit for a time, but will eventually be "persuaded" by the direction in which the Creator is taking the entire mass of air. Jesus does, of course, always agree with the Father and does His will at all times. But men can, for a period, resist the will of the Father.

If this is so; then the following verse completely agrees with your premise:

Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Pricks being a goad, a shepherd's staff or rod used for "directing" the sheep or cattle.

God was directing Saul's destiny, but Saul was "kicking against the pricks" by persecuting the believers, and resisting the Truth of who Jesus was. A direct devine intervention completely swept Saul into the flow of the direction that Paul was to go. I'd often questioned why it was "hard" for him to kick against the pricks versus "impossible" to kick against the pricks. Do you see what I am trying to say? There was a "resistance" available to Saul/Paul.
Joyce :)

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2008, 06:54:51 AM »
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I do not believe that we will be infinitely transcendent in any finite length of mundane or sideways in time movement, but will become manifestly transcendent in having: a) the final deathless body of I Corinthians 15, b) manifest dominion over a physical universe transformed into a Garden of Eden, or at least the portion thereof assigned to humanity, and c) a past that is vastly more mutable than is currently the case.  We will receive this destiny while the wicked suffer in Hell (i.e. the Fire of God), but via the increased mutability of the past, we will pass through timeline after timeline until eventually every single person (e.g. Hitler) that now suffers in Hell is spliced into a timeline where they receive the fullness of God's Grace.

I don't really understand what you are saying here.  But, it made me think of this:


15And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

 16That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

 17And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.


--Joshua 3


You talked about 'the waters of time' in an earlier paragraph.  Here we see the result of the Spirit of God dealing with the waters--they are heaped up on one side and cut off on the other--so that the people can stand on dry ground.   Thus, they are protected from any of the destructive elements of water as symbolic of time, chaos, or agitation against peace, and are able to stand and walk safely 'in the midst of evil' on a sure foundation--solid ground.   I could see this as a type of symbolic dealing with time, past and future.



Zephaniah 3:15
The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.


« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 07:06:23 AM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2008, 07:04:28 AM »
Quote
God was directing Saul's destiny, but Saul was "kicking against the pricks" by persecuting the believers, and resisting the Truth of who Jesus was. A direct devine intervention completely swept Saul into the flow of the direction that Paul was to go. I'd often questioned why it was "hard" for him to kick against the pricks versus "impossible" to kick against the pricks. Do you see what I am trying to say? There was a "resistance" available to Saul/Paul.


Yes, that's nice. 


John 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Those who are no longer wearing themselves out kicking against the pricks, fighting the Spirit of God,  are soaring on the wings of eagles.

True Believer

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2008, 08:06:02 AM »
Hi Pneuma,               (Good Name),

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Hi bro I agree with you, but Craig also has a good point. The only thing I would suggest is once the teacher has spoken and others have said thats to confusing it then become the teachers duty to meet the other where they live, becoming all things to all men as it were.

Thank you for being the voice of balance, I will try to simplify things as much as possible to meet the student.  I caution that the Holy Spirit is the only force that can bring true understanding of trans-temporal logic, and that all I can do is gives clues to help a person's rational mind align to the Wisdom of Spirit.  For some it is slow, for other's it is an instant outpouring of Spirit in which tears flow and the words of scripture leap right off the page. Something else than can help is to Google around and find a good layperson's exposition of quantum-mechanics.  The ideas Steward, Martin, and myself are all extensions of quantum logic.  The basic quantum logic of known science won't unveil the secrets of God as exemplified by the number of atheistic scientists, but it is a foundation the Holy Spirit can build upon in a useful way.

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TB when you talk about more then one time line are you saying that God has one plan but along that plan he has made provisions for every choice man makes?

If so then I would be in agreement, but if you mean that I make one choice in one time line and another choice in another time line I would be in disagreement, sounds to much like the gospel according to Rodenberry

The reality that Steward and I are speaking about is neither of these options, but instead about the mutability of the past.  The idea of multiple timelines is a useful heuristic for seeing the logic of how the past can be changed, and the relation of mundane reality to the higher dimensional realms.  For a Christian seeking the life of Spirit, however, the core issue is not parallel timelines, but the mutability of the past, for that is inherent to our surrender to Spirit.

To avoid the Rodenberry gospel, I defer to the direct revelations of Philip K Dick and Steward of the Word, both of which had a similar insight.  According to PK Dick, we make a wrong choice, and at some point when God sees that our soul has learned its lesson, He gives us a chance to change the past and make the right choice.  To add to the words of Steward (with my own words in angle brackets) to make things clearer: God is constantly interceding and guiding <the souls of> men trans-temporally to face these <failed> past choices again and again altering everything through constant <high-dimensional>cause and effect.  Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire... As Steward and I both noted albeit in different ways, we can not set our mundane choices in stone, only the Potter operating in the higher dimension of time can set our past actions in stone.

Hi Joyful1,

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Your metaphor of the molecules of air in the wind seems to allude to the premise that men can resist in various time lines the overall motion of the wind/Holy Spirit for a time, but will eventually be "persuaded" by the direction in which the Creator is taking the entire mass of air. Jesus does, of course, always agree with the Father and does His will at all times. But men can, for a period, resist the will of the Father.

This is exactly what I mean, and thank you for the quote from Acts, it is the perfect example of resisting God.  Beyond that, I note that like the atoms in the wind, the resistance of an individual is much easier in a chaotic/turbulent flow with numerous macroscopic eddies where large currents in society are fighting God, than in a smooth laminar flow where society as a whole is surrendering to God.  And indeed, with Saul being an enforcer for "the establishment," there were very large chaotic currents.


Hi Molly,

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I don't really understand what you are saying here.  But, it made me think of this:

I believe what I'm trying to say will become clearer with my cosmic destiny post, but for now, can you tell me why the quote of mine that you posted made you think of the Biblical verses that you mentioned?  I'm curious.  Also, please feel free to zoom in or out on what I'm saying and ask pointed questions.


Offline Taffy

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2008, 11:58:53 AM »
Taffy, I can name individuals who will say exactly what you said concerning teachers and sorry brother, I know it is your opinion but it is a two way street. A person needs the desire to learn and go through the work of learning.  I have known who here has a desire to learn versus those who do not. Unfortunately, most of the time it is those who do not want to learn, who continue complaining about how a teacher teaches and not looking to themselves and asking if they are wanting to learn.  :thumbdown: If someone doesn't understand something, have them ask clarifying questions, don't expect a teacher to read your mind and know what you do not understand and what you do.  :sigh:

I know you were trying to help, and I appreciate it.  :boyheart:

Thanks for the response Craig :icon_flower:

I too agree, there are those, who desire to learn and dig deeper and there are those who are like you say.

I indeed was speaking from one who desires to know more, along with maybe a few others.. :dontknow:

That about covers it me thinks :icon_flower:

For now im sitting back trying to take in the essence

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2008, 12:23:44 PM »
Quote
.

To avoid the Rodenberry gospel, I defer to the direct revelations of Philip K Dick and Steward of the Word, both of which had a similar insight.  According to PK Dick, we make a wrong choice, and at some point when God sees that our soul has learned its lesson, He gives us a chance to change the past and make the right choice.  To add to the words of Steward (with my own words in angle brackets) to make things clearer: God is constantly interceding and guiding <the souls of> men trans-temporally to face these <failed> past choices again and again altering everything through constant <high-dimensional>cause and effect.  Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire... As Steward and I both noted albeit in different ways, we can not set our mundane choices in stone, only the Potter operating in the higher dimension of time can set our past actions in stone.

If this be the fundamental principle of what youve been saying?..then this isnt new...can ya keep your words this simple My learned friend :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 12:43:12 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2008, 04:08:04 PM »
Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.



Some versions of the bible and the Greek do not contain that phrase?

CLV "Ac 9:5 Yet he said,  "Who art Thou, Lord?"  Yet *He said,  "I'  am Jesus Whom you'  are persecuting.


Greek literal " He said yet any (who?) you are master (Lord)  the yet  I am Jesus  whom you are Chasing  (persecuting)


pneuma

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2008, 04:33:16 PM »
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God is constantly interceding and guiding <the souls of> men trans-temporally to face these <failed> past choices again and again altering everything through constant <high-dimensional>cause and effect. Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire...

Hi TB, I am going to give an example to what I am seeing in what you said above, let me know if this is what you are saying.

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

If this is what you are saying then I agree, and is what I call Gods provisions  within His plan for mankind. God has a plan for everyone, and in His sovereignty He made provisions  within that plan for when man fails to do His will. Basically that provision is to keep setting before man the same choice over and over again until man gets it right.

Thinking of Jonah as another example, Jonah ran from Gods command, and because he did so he spent 3 days in hell  (Gods provision), once Jonah repented, hell spit him back out so that he could fulfill that which God told him to do.

Is this anywhere near what you are sharing?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2008, 04:53:25 PM »

What prevents our mistakes from being necessary and we are corrected as we go along because the mistakes served a purpose.   I can see my past drug use as necessary and few people will agree with that, but I believe it was a necessary means to aid in  my destiny.

 Ro 8:26 Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for the sake of us with inarticulate groanings.

Mt 24:6 Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation.

If it must be occuring, we cannot say that it could not have occured because the premise is not about "possible"  it is about scriptural.







True Believer

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2008, 06:56:09 PM »
Hi Pneuma,

I believe you have the simplicity Taffy and others are asking for.

Quote
Hi TB, I am going to give an example to what I am seeing in what you said above, let me know if this is what you are saying.

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

If this is what you are saying then I agree, and is what I call Gods provisions  within His plan for mankind. God has a plan for everyone, and in His sovereignty He made provisions  within that plan for when man fails to do His will. Basically that provision is to keep setting before man the same choice over and over again until man gets it right.

Thinking of Jonah as another example, Jonah ran from Gods command, and because he did so he spent 3 days in hell  (Gods provision), once Jonah repented, hell spit him back out so that he could fulfill that which God told him to do.

Is this anywhere near what you are sharing?

The only clarification I would make is that God's setting the same choice before man over and over again is transcendent to mundane time and can result in an actual change to the past.  Of course, a similar process can happen in mundane time as with Jonah, but it is the deeper form of setting things right that can reverse the fall, overcome death, erase memory of traumatic events, and establish the openly manifest Kingdom of God on Earth.

Hi Paul,

I agree that your past mistakes may very well have served a purpose, and in overcoming whatever struggle you had with drugs, you may well gone through a period of great spiritual growth. 

None the less, it may not have been necessary in an alternate version of history.  To use a perfect case in point, Hitler, the most reviled man in history played a pivotal role in preventing Stalin from installing communism by force across the whole of Europe all the way to the rock of Gibraltar.  For certain, the sins (i.e. mistakes) of Hitler were monstrous, but given the dovish politics of England and France after WWI, his sins almost certainly prevented the ever greater sins that Stalin had planned.  In a more enlightened version of history there would not have been a need for these two forces of evil to negate each other.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 07:06:00 PM by True Believer »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2008, 07:26:48 PM »
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None the less, it may not have been necessary in an alternate version of history.  To use a perfect case in point, Hitler, the most reviled man in history played a pivotal role in preventing Stalin from installing communism by force across the whole of Europe all the way to the rock of Gibraltar.  For certain, the sins (i.e. mistakes) of Hitler were monstrous, but given the dovish politics of England and France after WWI, his sins almost certainly prevented the ever greater sins that Stalin had planned.  In a more enlightened version of history there would not have been a need for these two forces of evil to negate each other.



And I can agree with that to a point I believe.  I have never equated one sin worse than another when it came to the ultimate purpose God had it all planned out for.

But if we are going to theorize alternate time lines then it is still consistant with what I get out of scripture.   I have to go by what scripture tells me at any point and time.  What an alternate version of history is has no bearing on whether God changes or not.  And if the bible is a manifestation of God, his spirit in word form , would that word be different in an alternate time line?

Lets propose the word is explicitly true in that manner, that ecclesiastes 3:1 also exists as written in all other time lines whether there is a certain amount or an infinite amount.

It all equals the same.  Another time line does not change my drug use or the necessity of it. If I committed acts like hitler in another time line,  my life in this time line is not affected  when it comes down to scripture talking about what must happen.

Now, even if all times lines work together, it is still consistant with the word of God, because God works all things.  And the context for all in this case is indeed anything and everything that ever existed in this time line or another.


If God works IN US and THROUGH us for the sake of his delight then no matter what time line there is, each step was meant to be because it "must" be.

The bible does not say that he works in us and through us when we get it right.  He does it so we END UP right.   Because that is his delight.

Just because we think linear and we can theorize resonable nonlinear realms does not mean any one time line is not made to start and continue till completion.


Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2008, 07:32:55 PM »
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None the less, it may not have been necessary in an alternate version of history.  To use a perfect case in point, Hitler, the most reviled man in history played a pivotal role in preventing Stalin from installing communism by force across the whole of Europe all the way to the rock of Gibraltar.  For certain, the sins (i.e. mistakes) of Hitler were monstrous, but given the dovish politics of England and France after WWI, his sins almost certainly prevented the ever greater sins that Stalin had planned.  In a more enlightened version of history there would not have been a need for these two forces of evil to negate each other.

hmmm... as set up to do so by certain moneyed interests in Brit, Italy,  and Amer, those who both funded him and funded the communist revolution to begin with?  He can in no way be construed a hero, just a little man with a mustache who sold his soul to the devil.

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Of course, a similar process can happen in mundane time as with Jonah, but it is the deeper form of setting things right that can reverse the fall, overcome death, erase memory of traumatic events, and establish the openly manifest Kingdom of God on Earth.

It seems to me that chaining satan in the pit for 1000 years would have the same effect.  You don't need to rewrite the past, just get rid of evil.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 09:12:36 PM by Molly »

Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2008, 08:48:43 PM »
willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Be careful what you agree with bro...  :mshock:

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

Sorry, I disagree that THIS is actually happening... for if it IS...

Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

TTR proposes that though God's WORD says that GOD CANNOT LIE (Tit 1:2), EXCEPT... in crossing TIMELINES, His WORD says one thing in this "ALL DIE Timeline", while it proves to say the opposite in another... :rolleye:

Believe what you will, I say this whole proposal is deception...

Peace...
...willieH  :cloud9:


« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 08:50:32 PM by willieH »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2008, 08:59:29 PM »
willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Be careful what you agree with bro...  :mshock:

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

Sorry, I disagree that THIS is actually happening... for if it IS...

Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

TTR proposes that though God's WORD says that GOD CANNOT LIE (Tit 1:2), EXCEPT... in crossing TIMELINES, His WORD says one thing in this "ALL DIE Timeline", while it proves to say the opposite in another... :rolleye:

Believe what you will, I say this whole proposal is deception...

Peace...
...willieH  :cloud9:



Willie, I agree with you here as I said in another post about Gods word.   I do like contemplating these things as an excersize in mental gymnastics.  However I have the gut feeling  (not stating that means truth) and take the reservation that this is a way to work around the concept of free will to give man more power than he actually has. This has been the problem from the very beginning of scripture.

 I have always said that terminology has always been the problem in discussion of free will.   free will, freedom of will,  free with boundaries, limited free will, free peoplem,  free in christ etc, etc,  ad nauseum.

When I throw all the terminology out,  junk all the theories and stay with the word of God and what God has spoken to me through it.  I see two things, among many of course,
1. Everything has a reason , not everything has a reset button
2. Pray for what MUST happen, not to pray for what could happen or a Do Over


Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2008, 09:00:27 PM »
TB when you talk about more then one time line are you saying that God has one plan but along that plan he has made provisions for every choice man makes?

If so then I would be in agreement, but if you mean that I make one choice in one time line and another choice in another time line I would be in disagreement, sounds to much like the gospel according to Rodenberry.

AMEN... that is what this proposal, IS...

Peace...
...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2008, 09:07:02 PM »
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In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

What Jesus does is free Adam from the consequences of his actions, thereby changing the imperative of cause and effect for Adam, i.e. sin=death.

We are essentially being lifted out of linear time and its destructive and enslaving effects.



John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


True Believer

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2008, 09:44:56 PM »
Hi Paul,

Quote
If God works IN US and THROUGH us for the sake of his delight then no matter what time line there is, each step was meant to be because it "must" be.

The bible does not say that he works in us and through us when we get it right.  He does it so we END UP right.   Because that is his delight.

I agree totally that God works in and through us for the sake of his delight, that he continues to do so even when we are doing things wrong, and that eventually we end up right.  Trans-temporal salvation as I present it simply the internal logic of HOW God does all this.  The real importance of this logic is deepening our understanding of the Bible so we can more deeply align with God's plan.

Quote
Just because we think linear and we can theorize resonable nonlinear realms does not mean any one time line is not made to start and continue till completion.

This is true so far as it goes, but I caution that Joel 2:1-11 and Malachi 4:6 state unambiguously that on the Day of the Lord some versions of history will end in total destruction.  Don't be misled by the word curse at the end of Malachi 4:6, for the literal translation is utter destruction.  See my response to Molly below.

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It all equals the same.  Another time line does not change my drug use or the necessity of it.

This I disagree with.  You as a soul transcendent to mundane time != your past drug use.  On alternate timelines, you may or may not have had a similar pattern of drug use depending on how your life fits into the Lord's plan.  To believe that this pattern could not change can lead to many versions of history in which it does not change.  This is part of very bondage we want and need to overcome

Quote
But if we are going to theorize alternate time lines then it is still consistant with what I get out of scripture.   I have to go by what scripture tells me at any point and time.  What an alternate version of history is has no bearing on whether God changes or not.  And if the bible is a manifestation of God, his spirit in word form , would that word be different in an alternate time line?

Lets propose the word is explicitly true in that manner, that ecclesiastes 3:1 also exists as written in all other time lines whether there is a certain amount or an infinite amount.

No essential message of the Bible will change. To give Willie the benefit of the doubt, the sin of Adam, crucifixion of Jesus, and other Biblically recorded acts of evil might be unchangeable, but this has no relevance to the mutability of all other past acts, and the essential role of this mutability in the healing of creation.  But I find it more likely that the sin of Adam and crucifixion of Jesus will both be cancelled out at the Omega point of the higher sideways dimension of time.

More important, humanity itself changes as we collectively mature in the higher (sideways) dimension of time, and as such God could very reasonably adjust the Bible's message to accommodate different levels of human maturity in different versions of history.  If Jesus were not virgin born, I believe there would be no room for genealogies to change at all, but since He is, I see some degree of room for the genealogies to change (with the Bible changing accordingly), although mainly for those who lived wicked lives, and much less so for devoted servants such as David.  See also my response to Willie too.

Hi Molly,

Quote
hmmm... as set up to do so by certain moneyed interests in Brit, Italy,  and Amer, those who funded him and funded the communist revolution to begin with?  He can in no way be construed a hero, just a little man with a mustache who sold his soul to the devil.

I am aware of these moneyed interests, and in no way construe Hitler to be a hero.  I simply draw attention to the fact that God had two people who sold their souls to the devil more or less negate each other, and a result the situation turned out far far better than what would have happened if either one of them had won and/or been unopposed.  I.e. God used evil to accomplish something good as was Paul's point in the previous post. 

Also, don't worry about the moneyed interests.  The stupendous mortgage/credit bubbles that they've created across the industrial world and the resulting trade deficits with developing world will, by default, destroy the entire global economy/banking system in the next several years. Unless some higher force enters the picture, this collapse will precipitate the utter destruction prophesied in the Bible, but by Grace of God we can be spared, as summarized below.

Quote
It seems to me that chaining satan in the pit for 1000 years would have the same effect.  You don't need to rewrite the past, just get rid of evil.

The "Holy" Roman Empire tried chaining Satan in the pit using force of arms for almost exactly 1000 years.  It failed miserably.  What we need is the true Millennium of Peace that can only be brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I totally affirm your desire to chain Satan in the pit and set up the manifest Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.  But there are two ways to defeat the moneyed interests and related conspirators.  One is the way of Joel 2:1-11, total apocalyptic destruction.  The other way is the for those risen in Christ to call upon the Holy Spirit so we can more effectively move sideways in time.  If we do that the moneyed interests and other conspirators will be defeated by continual changes to the past. 

In short, if God can undermine any plan for evil by making changes to the past, and if by the Grace of Spirit we move fast enough sideways in time, He can so thoroughly undermine every plan of every evildoer that Satan will indeed be chained in the pit.  From a mundane perspective, it will look like we've suddenly gained the ability to cut win-win deals in which the moneyed interests submit to Biblical principles, but at a deeper level it is God separating the repentant and unrepentant onto mutually exclusive timelines via wholesale changes to the past.  The global economic system does not have to crash, but it does have to be changed, and we can live to see it.

Willie,

Quote
Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

This is nonsense.  You are confusing that aspect of the WORD that is transcendent to time (i.e. Jesus) with that aspect of the Word manifest in time as a printed book. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.   Take the genealogies for instance.  If in one timeline the genealogy equals X and the Bible says it equals X, then the Bible in that timeline is stating truth.  It doesn't matter if in some other timeline the genealogy might equal Y and the Bible says it equals Y, for that too is truth, and both are equally part of the WORD'S TRUTH.

Even if we switch to another timeline by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible and all our memories and printed copies of the Bible change in synch, who are we to complain.  If God wants to keep it the same or change it He can, because He is in charge.  Your idea that the transcendent Truth of the transcendent Word must show up in the exact same printed form in each version of history is a naked attempt to constrain the Power and Sovereignty of God.  Please repent.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 09:49:09 PM by True Believer »

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2008, 10:01:54 PM »
Quote
The "Holy" Roman Empire tried chaining Satan in the pit using force of arms for almost exactly 1000 years.  It failed miserably. 


 23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

--Mark 3



Quote
I totally affirm your desire to chain Satan in the pit and set up the manifest Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.  But there are two ways to defeat the moneyed interests and related conspirators.  One is the way of Joel 2:1-11, total apocalyptic destruction.  The other way is the for those risen in Christ to call upon the Holy Spirit so we can more effectively move sideways in time.  If we do that the moneyed interests and other conspirators will be defeated by continual changes to the past. 

In short, if God can undermine any plan for evil by making changes to the past, and if by the Grace of Spirit we move fast enough sideways in time, He can so thoroughly undermine every plan of every evildoer that Satan will indeed be chained in the pit.  From a mundane perspective, it will look like we've suddenly gained the ability to cut win-win deals in which the moneyed interests submit to Biblical principles, but at a deeper level it is God separating the repentant and unrepentant onto mutually exclusive timelines via wholesale changes to the past.  The global economic system does not have to crash, but it does have to be changed, and we can live to see it.


Ok, I'll await your instructions on how to move sideways in time. lol  But, so far, what I'm seeing is God raising up his sons to bind the strong man.  I think that is what has to happen 'fast enough.'


21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

--Ob 1
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 10:18:54 PM by Molly »

Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption Clarifications and Errata
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2008, 10:13:20 PM »
willieH: Hi TB... :hithere:

As it ruffled Craigs feathers a bit, I wish to remind you that I mean no PERSONAL OFFENSE to YOU... Craig is correct and I agree, you are a brother in CHRIST...  :friendstu:

But when it comes to your WORDS, that is an entirely different matter...  :dontknow:

Just as CHRIST who deeply LOVED Peter, and had earmarked him one of the foundational places in the work of the GOSPEL... addressed HIS WORDS as they were DUE, ...accordingly (Matt 16:23)

You, it appears... consider yourself a teacher... and thereby base it upon complexity... whereas I have been given this gift as well... and base it upon simplicity...

CHILDREN are addressed which are likened to SHEEP... both of these entities are SIMPLE in nature, and observe innocently... and are found gleaning the largest portion when it is delivered at their level... which you obviously INTEND to exceed... think about it...  :dontknow:

1.  I corrected a typo in my very first post in which I said Isaiah 25:16 when I meant to say Isaiah 65:16 in quoting a verse that tells us that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  I surprised that nobody complained about Isaiah 25:16 being a nonexistent verse.

For me, your "over-the-top" style wearies... but thanks for correcting yourself.  :thumbsup:

2.  I used the word "versus" in my reply to willieH rather than the word "verses" when talking about the prophecies of Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31 and Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32.  This was intentional because I was trying to draw attention to the first group of verses in comparison to (versus) the second group of verses.  The point was to highlight the explicit if/else nature of these prophecies.  I didn't highlight the if/else prophecies of Malachi and Revelation to this level of detail because they were implicit or contained in a single verse.

IF/ELSE is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL bro... we are able to learn the difference between OBEDIENCE (good) and DISOBEDIENCE (evil), by participating in BOTH...

3.  I corrected the misspelling of Revelations to Revelation in my post to willieH.

Thanks again for correcting yourself, but let's face it, ...Only the VERY ANAL shall hold you to such an error...  :dontknow:

4.  Hi WillieH, in regard to the concern of yourself and others for scriptural support for "alternate" timelines:  To start, if/else prophecies are an unambiguous affirmation of human free-will, and it is totally unreasonable to deny this obvious truth with half-baked theories of divine predestination, especially given the centrality of these if/else prophecies to Biblical eschatology.

If/else does NOT establish that other "timelines" exist... If I eat beans I increase the potential of farting, but abstaining from eating them, doesnt eliminate the possiblility...  :laughing7:

When we combine if/else prophecies with God's foreknowledge of the end from the beginning (the very idea that you yourself mention so often), the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of both branches of an if/else prophecy, something that leads straight to the concept of "multiple timelines," "quantum many worlds," etc.  In short, the simultaneous truth of these two scriptural concepts leads directly to the multiplicity of "reality" being spoken of here, and is utterly incompatible with the simple linear predestination that you have proposed.

This is already beginning to weary me... but because God shall propose an "if/else" prophecy... does NOT conclude there are multiple pathways... It only states that one pathway can lead here, ...and the other -- there.

If I say to you... Arsenic WILL KILL you if you ingest it... but WILL NOT if you dont... does not propose that you have 2 potential destinies placed before you... It is simply  stating SCIENTIFIC fact...

The Gospel of John says the Holy Spirit will reveal all things, and WillieH, if you or anyone has an alternate interpretation of how if/else prophecies and absolute foreknowledge can coexist, please share it, but don't deny the Biblically affirmed free-will inherent to an if/else prophecy, reduce God to a higher-dimensional clockwork, and/or hide behind an argument that we can not understand the logic of God.

First, along with your TOPIC title, "FREE WILL" is an UNBIBLICAL proposal... so to introduce it to verify yourself and your CURRENT proposal, is a fallacy.  For you are basing upon one UNBIBLICAL teaching, the verification of another.  :dontknow:

This multiplicity of timelines that I propose is directly supported by the prophecy of Isaiah 65:16-17 which tells of a new heavens and earth in which the former events will not be remembered.  A very strong but indirect form of support comes from the way the application of the message of Jonah chapter three to Biblical eschatology completely resolves the morass of seemingly contradictory prophecy via a multiplicity of mundane outcomes based on the choice of people in mundane time to repent or not.

You should watch your mouth... it speaks in the language YOU understand, and does not convey teaching, rather SERVES ITSELF.

If we cannot have ANY RECALL of what EVIL IS... then this whole process is found to have been COMPLETELY FUTILE and has served NO PURPOSE whatsoever...

It also means that PAIN, SORROW, SUFFERING, DEATH... have been experienced for NO REASON... and that even the SUFFERING and DEATH of GOD's ONLY BEGOTTEN, was IN VAIN... which is UNREASONABLE!

You are SPIRITUALLY unable to see, blinded by your own Creations... one of which is the TOPIC TITLE... 

Is 65:16-17 is SPIRITUAL in its proposal, which eludes you as you LITERALLY observe it...

Your PROPOSAL has created a LIE of what GOD's WORD says... for The WORD SAYS, that IN ADAM ALL DIE... But you contrarily assert that eventually... IN ADAM ALL eventually LIVE...

Thereby removing CHRIST, His Suffering, His DEATH,  and FALSELY replacing Him with meaningless 25cent words, which endeavor to OVERWHELM others that have not as yourself, ...USELESSLY spent their time reading dictionarys... by proposing that we participate in MULTIPLE "DO-OVERS" till we "get it right"... :rolleye:  I cannot even begin to roll my eyes enough at this ridiculous, and self-serving nonsense...

The SPIRITUAL meaning in this verse is that THIS scenario we find ourselves in, shall NOT be REPEATED... For IN THE MIND is REALITY beheld... In the MIND does EVIL find its BIRTHPLACE... (James 1:14)

There is an ORDER to ALL things... PAUL noted in...

1 Cor 15:46

Howbeit that NOT which is SPIRITUAL, but that which is NATURAL; and AFTERWARD that which is SPIRITUAL...

So we which EACH have endured the NATURAL... shall in the "NEW" HEAVEN (mind) and "NEW" EARTH (body) ...in ETERNITY, be found in the SPIRITUAL...

The "NEW" HEAVEN is the NEW MIND which is the MIND of CHRIST... EVIL does not appear in the MIND of CHRIST...

The "NEW" EARTH, is the SPIRITUAL BODY of CHRIST... EVIL is not PRACTICED in the SPIRITUAL BODY of CHRIST...

You my new friend, have spent far too much time in the self-glamorizing of YOUR own WORD perceptions ...instead of seeking to KNOW the perception of the WORD of GOD... I believe I shall exit for the moment, and continue later... but before I go, let me comment on this:

P.S. Willie, about your complaint re the "Armor of God:" I waxed poetic by referring to the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind as the "Full Armor of God" in a different thread.  Since the Bible defines the Armor of God explicitly, it was a poor choice of metaphor.  None the less, the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind are crucial if we are going to deepen out understanding of the Bible and UR, and if we are to avoid foaming at the mouth and crying "wolf" with every new perspective that comes along. :sigh:

First, ...you didn't "wax poetic"... you made a STATEMENT... and that statement was NOT metaphoric... As would anyone caught in ADVERSITY, your web entangles yourself...

Second, ...I am hardly "foaming at the mouth", please!  :thumbdown:  Because I am not impressed with YOU and your supposed INTELLECT, you find me "foaming"  :laughing7: 

Third, ...giving warning to the SHEEP is part of my calling bud... it is not "crying wolf", ...it is noting to those who have not noticed, that there is DANGER in the camp... you don't like it?   GOOD!  :happygrin: 

Beware of me... for I shall as a good sheep dog, bite at the heels of my brothers and sisters here in this grouping I have been a part approaching four years... because I LOVE them ALL... and am UNWILLING to let any of them perish at the WORDS of a potential predator... cautioning them to examine what you say... and not just accept it, because you, as do your EVOLUTIONARY brothers, propose OTHER than what is SAID in the WORD...  Subtily speaking AGAINST the WORD, ...craftily DECIEVING... with the WHISPERED proposals of Blasphemy...

Encouraging the DUMB ones (sheep) to have a BITE of your tainted and UNBIBLICAL FRUIT,  and that we should see GOD as DOUBLE SPEAKING, with TRUTH being ONE THING in one "timeline" and the OPPOSITE in another!   :thumbdown:

If that makes you uncomfortable... tough!   :heat:  ...IT SHOULD!   :talkangry:

Peace...
...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption Clarifications and Errata
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2008, 10:44:09 PM »
2.  I used the word "versus" in my reply to willieH rather than the word "verses" when talking about the prophecies of Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31 and Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32.  This was intentional because I was trying to draw attention to the first group of verses in comparison to (versus) the second group of verses.  The point was to highlight the explicit if/else nature of these prophecies.  I didn't highlight the if/else prophecies of Malachi and Revelation to this level of detail because they were implicit or contained in a single verse.

IF/ELSE is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL bro... we are able to learn the difference between OBEDIENCE (good) and DISOBEDIENCE (evil), by participating in BOTH...


Both are set before us, life and death.

But He will roll up the heavens like a scroll...rolling it all the way back from the end, bringing us back to the beginning, before he closes the book.



22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

--Gen 2



Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.



2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2008, 10:48:55 PM »
willieH: Hi TB... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH
Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

This is nonsense.  You are confusing that aspect of the WORD that is transcendent to time (i.e. Jesus) with that aspect of the Word manifest in time as a printed book. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.   Take the genealogies for instance.  If in one timeline the genealogy equals X and the Bible says it equals X, then the Bible in that timeline is stating truth.  It doesn't matter if in some other timeline the genealogy might equal Y and the Bible says it equals Y, for that too is truth, and both are equally part of the WORD'S TRUTH.

First, ...your proposal that there are multiple "timelines" is AT BEST, only CONJECTURE, and it is found CONTRARY to MOST of that which is STATED in the WORD which is all we have...

So we are to believe the WORD (which is all we have), or YOU... I choose the WORD, you are welcome to believe in yourself...

Second, ...You sidestep the issue TB with "geneologies"... address what I said... In one STATED example in the Bible, it SAYS:  IN ADAM ALL DIE... in your proposed alternative, that TRUTH is challenged as IN ADAM ALL LIVE... successfully removing CHRIST and any necessity of HIM as SAVIOR...

You are willing to accept "if/else" prophecies as ACCURATE, but shun the rest?  You are found caught in your own web...

Even if we switch to another timeline by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Bible and all our memories and printed copies of the Bible change in synch, who are we to complain.  If God wants to keep it the same or change it He can, because He is in charge.  Your idea that the transcendent Truth of the transcendent Word must show up in the exact same printed form in each version of history is a naked attempt to constrain the Power and Sovereignty of GodPlease repent.

I do NOT "constrain" the POWER and SOVEREIGNTY of GOD... YOU DO!  You challenge that His WORD varies from one "timeline" to another"...

The WORD states that there is NO VARIANCE in the WORD... (Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) so it is YOU which challenge the statements of the Bible, not me...

If the WORD says that It does NOT VARY (James 1:17)... and that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE (Mal 3:6), and that GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1:2)...

 :omg:  How can there be MULTIPLE versions in MULTIPLE "TIMELINES" ...of that "WORD" shown OPPOSING one another?  :mshock:

I believe that it is you which need repentence bud... but knowing what I know, that event shall only be produced in you by GOD, not by my suggestion...

You "INSTRUCT" me to repent,  because I am found challenging YOU, ...not GOD... :mnah:

If I were to be in need of repentence... then GOD shall prompt me to do so, not you...

And I seek daily in His WORD, for areas which find themselves, "dodging the light"... do you?  Or have you "arrived"?  And therefore delegate yourself as the "INSTRUCTOR" of REPENTENCE...

Get ahold of yourself TB...  :sigh:  Humility is of the greatest  :cloud9: events that can occur in us...  it would help you to find a little... :pitiful:

For with GOD ...ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE... which means that a "dumb musician" is able to teach a "professor of linguistics"... in THIS "TIMELINE"... the ONLY "TIMELINE" that we KNOW exists...  :dontknow:

I wonder if there is rehab for Sci-Fi addiction?  :sigh:  (btw, if there IS, let me know, for I am an AVID Sci-Fi fan! --- I esteem it as entertainment, and leave it aside when I seek my maker!)

Peace...
...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2008, 11:09:36 PM »
WilliH,

This is a constant problem when something 'new' (new to the person recieving it, not new idea at all) is presented. The person will rejected right away on the basis that it is different from what they knew.  I have to make this note, everything including TRADITIONAL interpretation of God's Will is CONJECTURE. The more you deny the possibility based on your opinions on what is conjecture and sci-fi and other imaginative qualities, the more you must apply this to your belief and realize that it is also conjecture.

That is why, instead of condemning a view because you feel or think or believe it is not true, you should be demonstrating why your view is true and compare those two views and point out the rational error in the view that disagrees with you. Everything you presented does not address what TB wrote, it is just your opinion of what you think TB wrote and your hasty generalization that what he presents is sci-fi.

I spoke with my family concerning this, pastors of 25 years. Though my mother did not accept it for her own reasons, she was honest enough to realize that it is possible. My father, though did not accept it for his own reasons, has a very simular view of how it works in which both TTR and his view have agreeable tenants which could make it true. There was no condemnation of the view, htere was no down right rejection of the view, every person had their opinion and stated what they believed and by the facts, arguments and conclusions, one could make up their own mind what is true and what is not true.

Everything else, casts doubt on your own belief as being conjecture and a figment of your imagination... and that is a road you do not want to go down.

Craig

Craig

pneuma

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2008, 11:14:18 PM »
willieH: Hi Scott...  :cloud9:

Be careful what you agree with bro...  :mshock:

Example:
Adam was given a choices to eat or not to eat, Adam ate thus making a wrong choice, so God keeps setting before Adam the same choice until he gets it right, thus changing his past error and moving him along the right path.

Sorry, I disagree that THIS is actually happening... for if it IS...

Then GOD's WORD is a LIE in one TIMELINE, while it claims to be TRUTH in another...

In other words, the WORD of GOD says that IN ADAM ALL DIE... in this TIMELINE, when in fact in another THEY DO NOT...

TTR proposes that though God's WORD says that GOD CANNOT LIE (Tit 1:2), EXCEPT... in crossing TIMELINES, His WORD says one thing in this "ALL DIE Timeline", while it proves to say the opposite in another... :rolleye:

Believe what you will, I say this whole proposal is deception...

Peace...
...willieH  :cloud9:




Hi Willie, I have yet to agree with anything TB has said bro, if you reread my posts I gave what I see and asked TB if this was what he is saying, and if it is I agree with him/her.

His/her scope of knowledge on trans-lineier movement or any other trans type of movement far Surpasses mine, that why I did not say I agree with TB but asked TB if he/she agreed with what I said in simple form.

The example I gave is from the way I see things myself and I wanted to know if TB was in agreement with me, not the other way around, for how can I agreee with someone when I don't know what they are saying.

TB seemed to agree with what I said, except he added a qualifier, so it maybe that we are in agreement to a point, but the qualifier of mundane time seems to be where I would draw the line.

I don't beleive that in another line of movement, or in an alternate life, this is the life we are given and this is the only life that must die to be resurrected.


pneuma

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2008, 11:39:09 PM »
Quote
The only clarification I would make is that God's setting the same choice before man over and over again is transcendent to mundane time and can result in an actual change to the past. Of course, a similar process can happen in mundane time as with Jonah, but it is the deeper form of setting things right that can reverse the fall, overcome death, erase memory of traumatic events, and establish the openly manifest Kingdom of God on Earth.

Hi TB this is where we separate in what we see, I do not believe that in another time line I made a choice or will make a choice that is responsible for changing my past or erasing my memory of events along this time line. That type of scenario would do away with my mans need for Christ in this time line.

My past will never change, and as Paul says "forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

It is not our past that needs changing it is our present state that needs the changing that we might press towards the prize. And if I am in another time line already pressing towards the prize, I don't need to in this time line.

Therefore in this time line I do not need God, do not need Jesus, do not need the Holy Spirit and can live like the devil, why? Because in another time line I have already overcome and this time line will be taken from my memory and changed by the time line in which I did need God did need Jesus did need the Holy Spirit and walked in a holy life.

I simply cannot agree with that scenario TB.