Author Topic: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism  (Read 13531 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2008, 02:11:05 PM »
No one here wants to be deceived.

No one wants to stumble spiritually because of the potential idol of intelligence or education.

No one wants to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine" that comes around.

I think that isn't the goal of none of teh writer in this thread.
I was aware of multi timelines but never thought about it in connection to religion.
But a 2 months ago I never heard about UR either.....

What we can high-end science is for God boringly simple.


I'm not choosing sides but if I understood Willie's reply correctly I have a question along that line.
Let's keep it simple and just look at the genealogy. If things are totally scrambled then for example David possibly never have been born because his pregnant mother fell of a cliff.
Does God guard/control (sorry Willie....) all timelines in such a way they are forced into one Bible concept?
If not there are many different Bibles too?

Secondly, while I'm not trying to judge God, I find a a bit odd way of handling things.
An example explains this best.
Say in our timeline someone has lived that came very very close to Jesus. God hardly couldn't wait to get him into Heaven.
Unfortunately, because there are so many timelines that person also is thief in timeline 2, rapist in 3 and a murderer in 3.
Doesn't this timeline stuff cause more sin than just one timeline?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 02:58:46 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2008, 02:48:06 PM »
 :laughing7:   wabbit! you never cease to amaze me!

True Believer states at the very beginning of his posts:


The theme of this post is that mutability of the past is the very mechanism of salvation, and that if people do not find salvation in one version of history they can and will eventually find it in another.

I happen to believe that all men are saved in the Lake of Fire which consists of God Himself/ His Word.

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire
Isaiah 30:27
...his tongue is a consuming fire.

Without launching into the many scriptures that come to mind in support of TB's theory, I'd like to see this "mechanism" described by TB framed in Scripture.

He states further that:


This post will give a superficial introduction to the logic of time-symmetric causation and its overall relation to the Bible.  After that, it will show that mutability of the past is solidly rooted in the Bible, and resolve several Biblical paradoxes.

In dealing with such an all inclusive subject, I don't want to further complicate things without first establishing the framework. That's all.  :)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 02:50:49 PM by joyful1 »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2008, 02:56:27 PM »
:laughing7:   wabbit! you never cease to amaze me!

I heard that before.
And I still have no clue it's positive or negative   :icon_joker:
I don't see my post as off-topic. It's directly related to the parts quoted by you.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2008, 03:22:22 PM »
Wabbit, You said: Doesn't this timeline stuff cause more sin than just one timeline?

Where sin abounded, grace much more abounded. Does that mean that we should go and sin some more? God forbid! We resist Satan, we repent, we try again. But the amount of sins or the severity of sins cannot champion the amount of God's love or the severity of His judgement. Here is a poem that just came to me to explain:

The Creator is greater
than what He makes.
His ways and means are higher.

He clearly does
whatever it takes,
to make the tears expire.

how's that? :)

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2008, 04:52:54 PM »
Ok I understand.
But if someone got it right in timeline#1 why also subject that person to timeline#2 where he sins (more)
Ok there will be more grace. But also more sin.
That sounds like God wants you to sin so he can show His grace.
That's diffrent from: He shows grace despite of sin.
Grace is his nature not his goal.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2008, 05:04:53 PM »

The nature of grace is that it chastens. And chastening always has a purpose: to correct and find peace between you and God. That's what makes ET so crazy to believe in any longer for me. What possible PURPOSE would there be to torment someone "forever and ever" ? Just think about it. If they have no hope of ever getting out of it...why not just anhialate them and put them out of their misery? Their misery wouldn't be making God any happier and it especially wouldn't be making them any wiser...sooo....Why not?

Because God wills that every man be saved and God will accomplish all of His pleasure. That's why not.

He loves all of His children and will do whatever it takes and however long it takes to train us up in the way we should go! While else would He admonish us to do that with our own children?
Okay...I think I'm preaching here. Or teaching, or something like that and its not allowed, nor am I qualified to do it...so...I'll just end this with: "Just my thoughts!"
Joyce :)


« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 05:12:11 PM by joyful1 »

laren

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2008, 05:14:28 PM »

The nature of grace is that it chastens. And chastening always has a purpose: to correct and find peace between you and God. Joyce :)




so one day, will there be no more grace??  So God is not grace, but it's something he uses only while there is a need??

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12951
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2008, 05:25:18 PM »
Joyce,

I think this is going off-topic so I'll won't mention it after this  post in this thread (unless the thread owner wants so)

If someone is saved in timeline#1 there is no need to show grace in timeline#2...timeline#10^99999
That only creates a chance to 'unsave' someone.

More on-topic now.
Besides of that.
Assume the Joyce in this timeline goes to heaven. => assume in bold = bold assumption  :laughing7:
What happens to the other Joyces not worthy of heaven.
a] Annihilation?
b] Infinite number of Joyces in heaven?
c] All Joyces repent and go to the heaven that belongs in that timeline?
d] Or some combination?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2008, 06:09:17 PM »
Quote
But if someone got it right in timeline#1 why also subject that person to timeline#2 where he sins (more)

Maybe that's why so many people go missing.   :mshock:

Actually, I'm waiting for all the wicked to go missing rather than the rapture.

Maybe they could be all herded into one timeline--or would that be hell?


Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2008, 06:17:01 PM »
:laughing7: oh MY!! good ones!  :laughing7: actually, Molly...
I keep waiting for True Believer or Martin or someone with a bit of authority around here to march in and see what a MESS I've now made of this thread...

THAT'll be Hell!  :laughing7:
Okay the...the devil/i.e.wabbit,  made me do it!!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 06:21:42 PM by joyful1 »

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2008, 06:26:44 PM »
Maybe that's why so many people go missing.   :mshock:

Actually, I'm waiting for all the wicked to go missing rather than the rapture.

Maybe they could be all herded into one timeline--or would that be hell?


Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

You know, I came here (to TentMaker) to discuss what aliens are...
and thanks to you Molly...I now know what the purpose is for aliens !!  :laughing7: THEY abduct all the "evil-doers!!"
Thank youuuu!!

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11265
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2008, 06:43:38 PM »
Quote
You know, I came here (to TentMaker) to discuss what aliens are...
and thanks to you Molly...I now know what the purpose is for aliens !!   THEY abduct all the "evil-doers!!"
Thank youuuu!!

I hate to say it, but I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe the timeline which overcomes has to go into all the other timelines and clean up the mess they're making.  That would explain why all these people come to me out of the blue, clean things up, and disappear.  I always thought they were angels. :mblush:

For instance, all those brave people that kept trying to kill Hitler could just be Hitler from another timeline.

(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)

Offline studier

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 1805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2008, 08:15:57 PM »
No one here wants to be deceived.

No one wants to stumble spiritually because of the potential idol of intelligence or education.

No one wants to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine" that comes around.

A few want to explore the subject further because of the hope that it offers.

If the true doctrine of Christ can be more fully explained by this, specifically the way in which God will save all men, then I'd like to try to understand this.

A simpler explanation framed by scripture is essential. Is that possible?  :icon_flower:


Hello Joyful,

I agree. I also believe if people live by the spirit, then nobody will be stumbling regardless of the intelligence, education, or even emotional argument because in order not to be blown about by every wind of doctrine, a person needs to realize that by the Spirit God gave some to be teachers, but at the same time it is also the responsibility of every individual to present themselves to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.  Ephesians 4:11-16 2 Timothy 2:15 Right now, there is conversation being made by those who don't know the details of what is being presented clearly and when this happens there is no continuity of discussion and people begin to discuss their presumptions of what they are hearing rather than paying attention to what was presented. I know that many of you want to discuss it, but you also need to be patient so True Believer can simplify it.

I know from experience, the first thing that needs to be done is to just lay down the idea no matter it's form. This is the essential 'point', so at least people understand where this is going. It doesn't need to be supported even though it is because people need to understand the reasoning that will be supported later otherwise it still won't make sense even if it is with support. Next is the support.

From reading this little bit of discussion after my last post, it appears that some people don't realize they are sabotaging their ability to understand by going on tangents of things that were never discussed or even believed by True Believer or myself.

Offline studier

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 1805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2008, 08:28:28 PM »
Could somebody please explain to me how this works, practically speaking?  Do you mean that while I make choice A, my doppelgangers are simultaneously making choice B, C, D, and E in multiple universes?

Well there is two thoughts. From my position, since I believe in a transcendent God and only one time line (Though I say one, I do mean many it just results in one time line) you have no doppelgangers, they are and have always been you. Therefore though all choices are simultaneous, in the view of a transcendent God, the whole thing is already completed and He is resting from His work. Everything to God is simultaneous even in this nonmulti-timeline life, your birth, your death, everything about you is already complete but you are a linear being and so you don't know this until the linear process is over.

I am not sure how True Believer understands this, but I believe he sees it a bit differently.

Offline Taffy

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4167
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2008, 08:31:56 PM »
Craig

I can only speak for mine, or maybe a few others..but when one talks over my head by not using common day language ,I dont even understand what people are talking about...just like willie..sometime "I dont spoke ok" ya know

You talk of teachers....teachers communicate...thats the ART of teaching..or else ones knowledge is purely a puff of wind Bro...

If you desire TO TEACH then LEARN to REACH where PEOPLE ARE AT( or continue to discuss with those to where your at)...I found it helped our four children when they were young....Tis easier to COME DOWN , than for the young to REACH up BRO.

Id love to know whats being presented...and its not from reading the thread a few times...

just my veiw Craig...each to their own bro
 :icon_flower:

« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 08:59:16 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2008, 09:13:16 PM »

I do not reject the concept right away, I honestly need to think about it a lot more.  But right now I have my reservations so I do have some comments and I reserve the right to think differently at some point in the future ....  or not.    :icon_jokercolor:


My son has contempleted some things along those lines. He as well ponders the perception of our own will, choices and  rejects that God controls us down to the last sip of coffee taken.

However, in some ways, we can also overcomplicate things to a point where the complexity masks over just thinking the same way.

For instance,  ET believers position hinges more on free will than it does on scripture.  You can quote them all the data and all the literal hebrew and greek.  You could bring a truck load of theologins,  and  a warehouse full of documentation and it would not matter.    The thought of having a free will choice would take precident over it all.

Why is this?   It is because we as humans worship ourselves higher than we worship a God that "works all" which is directly in scripture and not as easily just an "interpretation".   

We can make all the comparisons we want but all of them concerning our choices lack one factor.  And that is The belief that scripture tells us that we cannot make a choice that is a determining factor for our eternal destiny.

Sure we are free people in america and we make choices and suffer the consequenses,  but I believe the analogy side steps the fact that america is not a sovereign God intent on getting us to where he needs us to be.


What is our destiny?   Are we really as free as it appears from any perspective?

Ponder this for a moment.  Purely hypothetical....

I have a box and I cut a hole in it,  Then I cover the hole back up,  knowing that the slightest touch will uncover the hole.  I place a mouse in the box and my wish, my desire is for the mouse to find the covered up hole.  The mouse runs around the box and I keep hoping it will find the hole,  once in a while I prod the mouse over close to the hole.  I put food by the hole, I put food on the other side of the hole, but the mouse just doesn't seem to ever go to the hole, finally I uncover the hole,  but thats nothing to the mouse it still does not go outside the hole.  I have been feeding and watering the mouse and it seems perfectly content to never go outside the box.  So the mouse is free to roam around the box and obviously the mouse is contrained by the boundries I have put in place. Finally it is time for what I wish to happen,  so I drag the mouse through the hole and Walla,   the mouses destiny is complete.


This appears to me to be what the idea of a free will of our world and the inability to determine our destiny is.


The reason I am skeptical is that I do not see scripture detailing our destiny that way.  I read in eccesiastes that everything happens for a reason.  I see in scripture where we are to learn.   God guides our steps.   Each step we take is a process of learning and if we are to learn what God intends, then each step is indeed determined because each step we take builds up to the finality of reconciliation with God and our individual purpose.

Proverbs 5:21 seems to be talking about mankind,  there is not one of us who has an identical path and God is capable of seeing them all.  I believe that this life is so well designed that everyone is part of a singular,  all of us many parts of one thing, each part equally as important as the next part and God has designed it so that the machine works completely as intended and in order for that to be true then each step had to be planned and each step we take must happen because it did happen.


Anyway, I will contemplate this without just rejecting it out of hand, but right now I am not convinced based upon what scripture seems to tell me.


Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2008, 10:26:27 PM »
willieH: Hi brother C...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH
The BURDEN of this fantasy is not on me Craig!  I dont NEED to do anything! 

Then you did not refute it, and therefore you cannot say it is unbiblical. I could say the whole pre-existance thing is fantasy, I don't need to do anything, but I don't. I prove it is not practical or biblical to make the conclusion. Anything else is just your opinion backed up by your belief that you think you know what is fantasy and what is not.

I hold reservations on Trans-Temporal Redemption as True Believer presented it, but it doesn't mean it is unbiblical. I have studied this since my vision at age 13, God is outside Time & Space, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and that means there does not need to be multiple universes of time-space, He can simply change anything from the beginning to end, repeatedly, if that is indeed what God provisioned to do. That is the reality of a CREATED universe of time/space, and a CREATOR who created it can mold it in anyway. We are Linear, He is an Omni. He IS the Beginning and the End, therefore all things Start and End with Him, which means time/space also is within this sphere of influence. God does not ontologically and intrinsically change, but He has changed His mind, intervened, guides steps, etc.

Without demonstrating your disagreement, and making off-cuff comments, you disrespect the person you disagree with who is also your brother in the Lord. Not only do you disrespect them, you do not show them the error of their way so that they may return to all truth. There is a lot wrong with that attitude. It is God's Patience, Kindness and Tolerance which brings repentance, and we are to have these qualities in abundance in order to be effective and productive in the Knowledge of the Truth.

Thanks for understanding and not reacting, but responding.


I have already prefaced that my comments were not intended to be offensive to True Believer.   :dontknow:  ...If he, or someone else, then takes offense (as you often say in your postings brother),  I cannot help them... 

If I PLAINLY state that I address ones words and not one personally, meaning no offense to that one, ...and then that one proceeds to take it PERSONALLY... then that one has purposely ignored or disregarded that preface... and are left to deal with it as they will...  And I shall not feel or made to be felt (blue above), that I have disrespected anyone...  :happygrin:

Let me put it this way my dear old friend...  :wink2:

I do not believe this UNSCRIPTURALLY TITLED proposal ("Trans-temporal salvation/causation") to be BIBLE based ...it might be,  ...but that remains to be seen, and the "onus" to show it to be so is NOT on me, for I DID not PROPOSE it!

If you theorize something and propose it to be Biblical, it is not up to me to prove it UnBiblical.  It is my right to note it has not been Biblically presented, therefore I also have the right to consider it unBiblical until such time that you show that it IS Biblical -- eh?  :grin:

To this point it has NOT been presented Biblically...  :dontknow:

Until a BIBLE BASED presentation of this proposal is made, ...I see it to be of no more SPIRITUAL value than last nights baseball scores... or the latest "EUREKA" episode...  :laughing7:

And shall be no more deserving of my attention then those baseball scores... OR that "EUREKA" episode!   :dontknow:

peACe...
...willieH  :king:

Offline willieH

  • Read Only
  • *
  • Posts: 2260
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2008, 11:06:57 PM »
willieH: Hi Martin... :hithere:

Hi WillieH,

I think it's something lost in the semantics.  If I've understood things, they're envisioning more of a chess game, while I think you're envisioning [in what's been said thus far] much more chaos and God running around behind the devil putting out all of his fires one by one in a futile, reactionary way than they're meaning to propose. 

On the contrary bro... I believe in COMPLETE DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY over ALL THINGS whether they are Good or Evil... HE is orchestrating HIS CREATION, the Creation is not orchestrating ITSELF...

By noting this, I am not trying to engage anyone in a debate as to the positional degree of SOVEREIGNTY, which has been argued over and again here on TM...  I am just trying to inform you of where I stand on that issue...

I've said similar stuff before, though in the way that I put it I was talking more along the lines of the multi-universe version of Quantum Mechanics rather than viewing our time line as an equator on a globe and God being at the North Pole being able to drop down an infinite number of meridians to intervene as He pleased on our time-line. 

I do see the gray areas that are making you apprehensive of this model, WillieH, but I'm not sure that I've seen a presentation style yet of the Larger Hope that a sufficiently brilliant philosopher somewhere couldn't find fault with, with either finding God too controling or too flippant until the train's about to hit the brick wall, or in some other way finding problems with it.  I'm currently inching towards Ultra-Universalism and for some that type of Universalism raises too many unresolved justice and/or disciplinary and/or humbling issues, while for me, either John 12:31-33 is true or it's not;  either He finished it, or it's to be continued.

Not sure what you mean by "Ultra-Universalism" could you define it for me?

All of us are at different stages of growth, and perhaps given another 10 to 20 years we'll all be aghast at what we believed to be the method by which God was acheiving His promises right now.  He's a Journey.

Is HE ever! :omg:

peACe...
...willieH  :king:

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2008, 12:50:33 AM »
(speaking of aliens, I assume you've seen the new crop circle on milk hill, England, drawn on 8/8/08 in the shape of a 1000 foot figure 8?)
:mshock: only 8 people will be abducted?
whew! my chances are getting better!  :laughing7:

joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2008, 01:14:17 AM »
SOTW--
the key word in my statement was: potential...
"...because of the potential idol of intelligence or education."
We are on the same page here, SOTW.....I understand that you have a gift and that you use it thoughtfully. I used the above as a preface to my main comment, which was....I want to try to understand this. Carefully treading the universe of ideas that are out there today is, in my opinion, and I believe yours as well, good advice for anyone!
Joyce :)

True Believer

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — Clarifications and Errata
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2008, 02:03:20 AM »
1.  I corrected a typo in my very first post in which I said Isaiah 25:16 when I meant to say Isaiah 65:16 in quoting a verse that tells us that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  I surprised that nobody complained about Isaiah 25:16 being a nonexistent verse.

2.  I used the word "versus" in my reply to willieH rather than the word "verses" when talking about the prophecies of Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31 and Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32.  This was intentional because I was trying to draw attention to the first group of verses in comparison to (versus) the second group of verses.  The point was to highlight the explicit if/else nature of these prophecies.  I didn't highlight the if/else prophecies of Malachi and Revelation to this level of detail because they were implicit or contained in a single verse.

3.  I corrected the misspelling of Revelations to Revelation in my post to willieH.

4.  Hi WillieH, in regard to the concern of yourself and others for scriptural support for "alternate" timelines:  To start, if/else prophecies are an unambiguous affirmation of human free-will, and it is totally unreasonable to deny this obvious truth with half-baked theories of divine predestination, especially given the centrality of these if/else prophecies to Biblical eschatology.  When we combine if/else prophecies with God's foreknowledge of the end from the beginning (the very idea that you yourself mention so often), the only reasonable conclusion is that God has absolute foreknowledge of both branches of an if/else prophecy, something that leads straight to the concept of "multiple timelines," "quantum many worlds," etc.  In short, the simultaneous truth of these two scriptural concepts leads directly to the multiplicity of "reality" being spoken of here, and is utterly incompatible with the simple linear predestination that you have proposed.  The Gospel of John says the Holy Spirit will reveal all things, and WillieH, if you or anyone has an alternate interpretation of how if/else prophecies and absolute foreknowledge can coexist, please share it, but don't deny the Biblically affirmed free-will inherent to an if/else prophecy, reduce God to a higher-dimensional clockwork, and/or hide behind an argument that we can not understand the logic of God.

This multiplicity of timelines that I propose is directly supported by the prophecy of Isaiah 65:16-17 which tells of a new heavens and earth in which the former events will not be remembered.  A very strong but indirect form of support comes from the way the application of the message of Jonah chapter three to Biblical eschatology completely resolves the morass of seemingly contradictory prophecy via a multiplicity of mundane outcomes based on the choice of people in mundane time to repent or not.  Another very strong but indirect form of support comes from the Bible's unambiguous affirmation of a transcendent cosmic destiny (my next big post), something that supports the core logic of time-symmetric causation.  I propose that the issues discussed in this item and the upcoming article constitute systematic Biblical support, and that the more important issues are to: a) compare and reconcile the variations of this theme presented by Origen, Philip K Dick, Steward, Martin, and myself, b) receive relevant input from joyful1 and others, and c) sort out the many details.

5.  In regard to the questions of Molly about doppelgδngers:  We have none, and I agree with what Steward of the Word already said about this.  In my own words, we have one life in the image of God in which we are transcendent to the mundane dimension of time in the same way that Jesus is transcendent the higher sideways dimensions of time, and the Father transcendent to an infinite number of temporal dimensions — but because of the sin of Adam we are having to relearn the transcendence being spoken of here.  In regard to alternate timelines, the past, present, and future events of our life are mere data subject to both change and "quantum superpositions" between alternate realities.  But we are not living multiple lives simultaneously, just one transcendent life in which the flexibility of reality and presence of counterfactuals (i.e. the "many worlds" of quantum theory) is vastly greater than what the mundane traditions of humanity admit to.

6.  In regard to the questions of Molly and WhiteWings about the multiplicity of sin and the making of choices:  Yes, a person could sink deeper into sin in alternate timelines, but this is strictly temporary.  A good metaphor is the molecules of air in the wind.  The linear direction of the wind (the Holy Spirit) is toward the total overcoming of sin whereby the grace of God can become a fully a manifest reality, and this destiny is where we will all eventually arrive.  But in the same way that the individual motion of an atom can be contrary to the overall motion of the wind, especially in the presence of macroscopic eddies, so too can individual souls move temporarily against the direction of God and deepen their sin, especially in the presence of macroscopic social forces that seek to deny the Will of God via the endemic swirls of faulty logic, handed-down tradition, and/or vengence and other forms of bad behavior.

7.  In regard to Steward's comment: "The biggest reason for my reservation is the pivotal role that Jesus Christ holds in TTR, it almost nullifies the purpose of His incarnation if perfection is achieved by free-will choice over the span of multiple manifestations of the same lifetime through multiple universe/timelines. Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.    Another way to describe the purpose of His incarnation is that via the crucifixion/resurrection, His role as the Alpha and Omega of this cosmos again became a manifest reality for us, so that the Wind (Holy Spirit) which naturally flows from Alpha to Omega could again be a manifest part of our life, a crucial purpose that heals the sin of Adam.  It is by His sacrifice on the cross that our trans-temporal movement is no longer random, but relentlessly guided toward salvation.  And being both Alpha and Omega, He is also at One with the Holy Spirit, and is thus omnipresent across the entire array of alternate timelines in His working of Salvation.

8.  In regard to the question of WhiteWings about the multiplicity of timelines and the Bible: I'm not choosing sides but if I understood Willie's reply correctly I have a question along that line.  Let's keep it simple and just look at the genealogy. If things are totally scrambled then for example David possibly never have been born because his pregnant mother fell of a cliff.  Does God guard/control (sorry Willie....) all timelines in such a way they are forced into one Bible concept?  If not there are many different Bibles too?[/i]  Along with salvation in Jesus, I see the message of the Bible and the divine themes therein to be a factor common to all timelines, for the Bible itself is anchored in this deeper reality, and thus the best testament that exists to the existence and structure of this reality.  But given the transcendence of Jesus to both the mundane and higher sideways dimensions of time, I see no reason that Jesus could not tweak the Bible's message for each and every timeline.  In short, I feel that the Bible is not a constraint on the sovereignty of Jesus, but a testament thereto.  If the genealogies are different, the Bible will be different in a corresponding way, and if we shift timelines via the Power of the Holy Spirit our memories of the Bible will shift accordingly.  In short, God is in control, and it is not our place to questions the actions of God, especially a timeline different than our own.

9.  In regard to Steward's reservations and his reference to the resurrection of the dead.  I'm not quite sure what he is referring to with this, but I see the resurrection of the dead best explained via a two step metaphor.  In the same way that we see the tip of the iceberg while the bulk of the iceberg resides out of sight under the water, so too do we see the tip of quantum reality in the known science of quantum-mechanics, while out of sight under the "waters of time" is the much deeper reality of quantum-thermodynamics.  In this deeper reality, I see the resurrection of the dead happening one of two ways, with the tip of the iceberg being those miraculously raised from the dead in the mundane realm like Jesus and those raised from the dead by the prayers of the Saints (or by the intervention of God in a "near-death experience"). Out of sight under the "waters of time" is the much greater number of people raised from the dead by their appearance on alternate timelines in which the cause of death was in some way delayed or averted, a process that will recover those who were aborted, and will eventually regenerate the multi-century lifespan of the patriarchs for the whole of humanity, as per Isaiah 65:20.  The final resurrection body of I Corinthians 15 is beyond even this.

10.  In regard to Molly's question about the desolation or emptiness of Genesis 1:2, her later comment about the herding of sinners onto their own timeline, and Steward's comment about the meaning of Genesis 1:2.  I agree with Steward about the spiritual meaning of this passage, but like so many places in scripture, I see a literal physical meaning too.  In short, those who fail to overcome the spiritual desolation of their own heart will tend to have very little sideways in time movement during their life, and will tend be stuck and/or congregate on timelines headed toward total apocalyptic destruction as explicitly warned in Isaiah 34, Joel 2:1-11, Malachi 4:6 (and implicitly warned via a relatively literal interpretation of Revelation).  Those timelines will experience hell on earth and end up physically in the state of Genesis 1:2 which is the root for the spawning of a new version of history (and the souls therein will suffer mightily).  This dovetails perfectly with the "cyclic time" of the Pagans, with the caveat that this cycling of mundane history is not an inexorable reality, but something we specifically want to escape via the grace of God.

For those who overcome the desolation of the heart (and mind) via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we gain a freedom to migrate sideways in time during the course of our life, and even though we are not normally aware of this sideways movement, we can end up on an entirely different timeline in which destructive prophecies are all metaphors for an apocalypse of the heart.  I distinguish the fate of the wicked and righteous a bit differently than Steward, and to slightly misquote one of his lines, I hold it as a possible option for the wicked in their resurrection to experience a Trans-Temporal Redemption, while the righteous are reign infinitely transcendent in manifest transcendence with the Father and the Son.  I do not believe that we will be infinitely transcendent in any finite length of mundane or sideways in time movement, but will become manifestly transcendent in having: a) the final deathless body of I Corinthians 15, b) manifest dominion over a physical universe transformed into a Garden of Eden, or at least the portion thereof assigned to humanity, and c) a past that is vastly more mutable than is currently the case.  We will receive this destiny while the wicked suffer in Hell (i.e. the Fire of God), but via the increased mutability of the past, we will pass through timeline after timeline until eventually every single person (e.g. Hitler) that now suffers in Hell is spliced into a timeline where they receive the fullness of God's Grace.

 :bgdance:

P.S. Willie, about your complaint re the "Armor of God:" I waxed poetic by referring to the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind as the "Full Armor of God" in a different thread.  Since the Bible defines the Armor of God explicitly, it was a poor choice of metaphor.  None the less, the writing of God's laws on both heart and mind are crucial if we are going to deepen out understanding of the Bible and UR, and if we are to avoid foaming at the mouth and crying "wolf" with every new perspective that comes along. :sigh:

P.P.S. Thanks Steward for the heads up about the history of ideas along these lines, and opposition thereto.

P.P.P.S   Martin, I too am interested in your definition of Ultra-Universalism.  I could easily use that term to describe my belief, but I'm not sure I would be using it in the exact same way that you do.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 02:18:44 AM by True Believer »

Offline studier

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 1805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2008, 02:09:31 AM »
Taffy, I can name individuals who will say exactly what you said concerning teachers and sorry brother, I know it is your opinion but it is a two way street. A person needs the desire to learn and go through the work of learning.  I have known who here has a desire to learn versus those who do not. Unfortunately, most of the time it is those who do not want to learn, who continue complaining about how a teacher teaches and not looking to themselves and asking if they are wanting to learn.  :thumbdown: If someone doesn't understand something, have them ask clarifying questions, don't expect a teacher to read your mind and know what you do not understand and what you do.  :sigh:

I know you were trying to help, and I appreciate it.  :boyheart:
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 02:51:11 AM by SOtW »

Offline studier

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 1805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2008, 02:13:06 AM »
SOTW--
the key word in my statement was: potential...
"...because of the potential idol of intelligence or education."
We are on the same page here, SOTW.....I understand that you have a gift and that you use it thoughtfully. I used the above as a preface to my main comment, which was....I want to try to understand this. Carefully treading the universe of ideas that are out there today is, in my opinion, and I believe yours as well, good advice for anyone!
Joyce :)


I understood Joyful1. Thanks.

I just find many people like are impatient and when they don't understand are quick to make complaints or disagreements based on nothing other than their inability to be patient, tolerant and kind. Let us hope that people abide by both our advice. If people truly want to learn, they will listen and ask questions, they will not be quick to condemn which you have not done, but has been a problem of many in this forum.

In any case, True Believer is now made aware of the potential hazards he will face by remaining learned, knowledgable and educated. It just means that he will need to also be patient and re-explain over and over in different ways so it can be somewhat understood. :D
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 02:19:49 AM by SOtW »

Offline studier

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 1805
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2008, 03:11:34 AM »
Quote
7.  In regard to Steward's comment: "The biggest reason for my reservation is the pivotal role that Jesus Christ holds in TTR, it almost nullifies the purpose of His incarnation if perfection is achieved by free-will choice over the span of multiple manifestations of the same lifetime through multiple universe/timelines. Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.    Another way to describe the purpose of His incarnation is that via the crucifixion/resurrection, His role as the Alpha and Omega of this cosmos again became a manifest reality for us, so that the Wind (Holy Spirit) which naturally flows from Alpha to Omega could again be a manifest part of our life, a crucial purpose that heals the sin of Adam.  It is by His sacrifice on the cross that our trans-temporal movement is no longer random, but relentlessly guided toward salvation.  And being both Alpha and Omega, He is also at One with the Holy Spirit, and is thus omnipresent across the entire array of alternate timelines in His working of Salvation.

Clarify what I understand what you are saying here. This where I was pointing out earlier of a force/action/being with immunity to cause and effect and is in fact the cause and effect from where everything ripples both forward and backward in a linear time line. The appearance of the Son of God, a God (eternal) made manifest in the temporal is constant in every time line, in fact it is this action which flows everything else both forward and backward. :cloud9:

Quote
In regard to alternate timelines, the past, present, and future events of our life are mere data subject to both change and "quantum superpositions" between alternate realities. But we are not living multiple lives simultaneously, just one transcendent life in which the flexibility of reality and presence of counterfactuals (i.e. the "many worlds" of quantum theory) is vastly greater than what the mundane traditions of humanity admit to.

I got carried away when I said 'simultaneously' because it is difficult to explain this concept because we are temporal creatures. I apologize if I caused confusion. I agree we are not living multiple lives simultaneously, however since what is happening is caused by what is not within the time lines in the first place, all multiple time lines exist but don't exist until the outcome has concluded.  I believe this what is called quantum superposition: the cat is dead or alive, but until one opens the box to see... ...it amazingly exists both in the state of dead and alive? Correct me if I am wrong.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 03:23:13 AM by SOtW »

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption — a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2008, 03:25:59 AM »
TB when you talk about more then one time line are you saying that God has one plan but along that plan he has made provisions for every choice man makes?

If so then I would be in agreement, but if you mean that I make one choice in one time line and another choice in another time line I would be in disagreement, sounds to much like the gospel according to Rodenberry.