Author Topic: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism  (Read 11569 times)

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True Believer

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The theme of this post is that mutability of the past is the very mechanism of salvation, and that if people do not find salvation in one version of history they can and will eventually find it in another.  This post will give a superficial introduction to the logic of time-symmetric causation and its overall relation to the Bible.  After that, it will show that mutability of the past is solidly rooted in the Bible, and resolve several Biblical paradoxes.

A host of Biblical passages tell us that the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world, and the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God, and nowhere is this more true than in the understanding of divine causation.  Indeed, there are  few areas where the carnal mind is more tenacious than its tendency to view "time" from a mundane perspective, i.e. to view it as a simple unidirectional process in which "cause" always precedes "effect."  This perspective leads to the view of hard scientific materialism in which the past is fixed and "natural" forward-in-time causation is all that exists.  It is a point of view that denies the power of God over time, and constrains the influence of God to the Deist belief that God sets the universe in motion and lets it run without further interaction, a set of beliefs that are utterly incompatible with the message and logic of scripture.  Taken to the utmost extreme, this view of time leads to the "block-time" of Einsteinian relativity where time assumes qualities akin to that of a spatial dimension, within which every single event in the cosmos is totally predestined, a belief that has the same core defect as Calvinist theology.

The central axiom of Judeo-Christian belief is that prophecy and miracles are both real, and that via these phenomena a transcendent God is intimately involved with the unfoldment of history.  If we were to explore this logically and assume that the interaction of God and physical reality is totally self-consistent (i.e. lawful), we would be forced to conclude that a system of time-symmetric causation exists in which "effect" can sometimes precede "cause."  This is foolishness to the world, yet for the Holy Spirit it is always thus, for what is prophecy but the backward-in-time flow of information, and what is a miracle but an event in which God momentarily frees us from the bondage of mundane causation?  People enslaved to the carnal mind will argue that the concept of time-symmetric causation is mere circular logic and would lead to paradoxes if it really existed (e.g. a person altering the past to kill his/her great grandfather as a youth).  For certain, feedback loops between past and future exist, and indeed they are the very means by which the soul of a person can exist as a trans-temporal entity with a life and will of its own.  But there is no paradox, for the changes to the past that can occur via the time-reverse aspect of causation are logically valid.

The reason that changes to the past are logically valid is because they lead not to the infinite regress of simple circular logic in which the very structure of reality would dissolve into chaos, but to an infinite regress into higher- dimensional spaces that has the capacity to hold and order an infinity of parallel timelines.  Indeed, this infinite regress has every characteristic that we traditionally attribute to "God" including: a) eternalness, b) the power of creation, c) ontological supremacy, d) omnipresence, e) omniscience, f) omnipotence, and g) utter benignity.  The scientific logic behind this can be explored in a future thread if desired.  For now, note that the above overview of divine causation affirms the key Biblical themes of prophecy, miracles, free-will, and the utter transcendence of God.

Since multiple timelines are inherent to the mutability of the past, some might object that this conflicts with the message of Hebrews 9:27 that men die (and live) once.  But this confuses the changing details of our one life and death with the essential nature of our life, an essential nature transcendent to time as per our creation in the image of God.  In this regard, the "fall" (i.e. the spiritual death that brings physical death) is an unnatural fixedness to the past in which mistakes and entropic damage accumulate faster than they can be repaired via changes to the past.

In regard to scriptural support for mutability of the past, the first things to note are the passages of Ecclesiastes 12:14, I Corinthians 4:5, and Hebrews 4:13 which affirm the omniscience of God by telling us that nothing is hidden from God, and that He will bring every deed into judgement.  None the less, Isaiah 65:16 tells us point blank that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  Sure, I'm taking a verse literally that most take poetically.  But this just begs the question of whether God can change the past so that a person's troubles (and sins) are so thoroughly expunged from the fabric of reality that they "never happened in the first place."  In direct support of this, the very next verse tells us, "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind," an affirmation of a change so deep that even our memory of the past is affected.  Job 11:6 further affirms this when Zophar tells Job that God has forgotten some of his sins.

An equally great but slightly more obscure affirmation of the mutability of the past is inherent to the prophecy of Nineveh's destruction in the book of Jonah, a situation in which a prophecy that failed to come true was canonized in scripture.  The key issue is that an unconditional prophecy was canceled because the people repented.  A proper interpretation that honors the transcendence of God would be that God saw the destruction He wrought on one timeline and spun off a new timeline when the people repented.  With a conditional prophecy we could assume a single version of history with two prophesied outcomes, something that would satisfy the carnal mind.  But with an unconditional prophecy, the only alternative to parallel timelines is to assume that God lied or that Jonah was a false prophet.

Parallel timelines are also the perfect explanation for the narrative discrepancies between the various books of the New Testament.  Because the mundane mind assumes that there is only one version of history, skeptics are forever putting Christians on the defensive by highlighting the near-impossibility of integrating these divergent narratives into a single sequence of events.  On the other hand, if we remember that the Crucifixion/resurrection is the very focal point through which all versions of history must flow if universal redemption is true, we can jettison the apologetic contortions.  Indeed nothing could more honor the reality of God made flesh, than a scenario in which Jesus so thoroughly welded and sorted the myriad alternative timelines of humanity, that the New Testament could bring together the wisdom of numerous timelines due to the transcendent presence of Jesus at the very heart of it.

Likewise, we have conflicting prophecies from the entire Bible between "end-time" scenarios of total destruction, small remnants surviving, and multitudes praising the glory of God, with the book of Revelation being a perfect microcosm of these divergent scenarios.  From the perspective of the carnal mind, these prophecies are hopelessly contradictory.  From the perspective of the carnal mind wrestling with the Truth of Spirit, we have faith that the Bible is true but then falsify it by with contorted eschatologies that attempt to string these prophecies together in a way that was never intended.  From the perspective of the Spirit, we honor a God who transcends not just a single version of history, but the entirety of all versions of history that could ever exist.  A God so transcendent, He can afford to let humans have free-will, and so loving as to create as many timelines as needed for all to be saved.

Viewed from this perspective, the conflict between salvation by grace and by faith dissolves once we realize that an omnipotent God can by grace spin off as many versions of history as necessary until a person finds faith in God.  Likewise, the nominally eternal damnation that might exist from a mundane perspective is trumped by the creation of parallel timelines transcendent to mundane time.  In this regard, the lake of fire is nothing but the innumerable timelines a person could go through for "the ages of the ages" until they turn to God.  Indeed, even Adolph Hitler and Genghis Khan can be trivially forgiven if on some alternate version of history they surrender their heart to God and choose a different life.  With this, consider the demand by a skeptic of UR for scriptural affirmation of the following:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

For certain, each of these can be affirmed by quoting the appropriate verses of the Bible, but it can be like a heated battle if each camp feels that the other is systematically misinterpreting the Bible.  By contrast, if we can show that the Bible systematically affirms an omnipotent God actively creating parallel timelines, this entire set of issues dissolve into nothingness.  A future thread will show how the Bible systematically affirms the transcendent cosmic destiny that must exist if time-symmetric causation is for real.  For now, I invite scriptural discussion both pro and con for the concept of trans-temporal salvation just presented.

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« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 07:12:24 PM by True Believer »

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 12:03:23 PM »
Hi TB

I have had folk saying to me Huh?  :mshock: in the past but this is a totally new concept hence the lack of responses.  Makes interesting reading but I guess we are going to see a bit more of where you go with this - nothing is implausible.

Possibly use smaller words to get the message across and cut it into smaller bytes  :laughing7:

I am pretty fluent in English but the grammar you use does seem a little over the top even for me.

Not to insult you in any way but I guess I am saying we folk here are relatively simple and probably much of what you share is going over our heads.  If some folk do not understand me I guess you are going to have a harder time teaching this.

I never considered parallel time lines and that is an interesting perspective yet the concept still ends off with a common goal.  I am guessing here but in a nutshell are you saying the ET folk will have the heaven they espouse and the UR folk the heaven they espous or IOW what we conceive in our minds becomes our personal relative reality?

I can relate to that as I have always seen the relationship to the Father to be a one-One and what we share here has commonality only in certain areas.

As for remembering our past, I think it is all there still, we just do not know how to access those memories.  Hypnotism shows that this can be achieved.  Possibly at conversion/enlightenment, a lock is placed on those non critical issues yet there is the matter of inner healing - a process of dealing with traumatic past events in that the brain blocks out these memories.  The process of inner healing brings these out via divine revelation and then one is helped to forgive the offender and "replace" that memory with say a scripture.  Having been through that process, it possibly can work as there we blocked things in my mind that were unblocked and dealt with, the memory is there but the pain associated is gone.

So in the case of suggesting the past can be altered, yes in a way but in reality is more just a present mechanism in dealing with a bad past experience, if I can still remember that which traumatised me but now no longer has any bearing on my present psyche then the past did happen and only the memories are changed.

Well in the sense that memories being completely obliterated, that would give credence to the ET perspective where they believe that together with tears being wiped away, memories will go too.  Now if that is true, I sure would not like that scenario but if it was eradicated, I would not be aware of my memories in the first place so it would not matter.  Pretty much like the movie MIB with that magic pen of theirs.

I believe our memories remain intact.  Now for Hitler and serial killers that alone would drive them nutz and would be hell in itself.  However the bible does say "behold I create all things anew"  If we then stay on the recall/remanufacture scenario then what purpose does this life then serve?  If we are to learn exponentially and then just get zapped with no recall then any POV of religion/faith is OK as it matters not.

I think this could be a dangerous line of thinking as that really portrays a message of no matter what you do, it does not matter and I do not think that is the message of UR.

I think that which you are suggesting is a way of covering all bases whereas the message of UR does it similar only that the channel or doorWAY in is via Jesus Christ where every knee (believers and unbelievers) shall bow.

This hypothesis also nullifies the reincarnation model as why come back if each time you return zapped with a clean sheet?  Surely if reincarnation is true, we should have memories of what we did wrong.  The reincarnation aspect IMO leaves too much to chance and is no better a theology of the ET folk that say you need to geddit right in this lifetime also based on chance.  Furthermore, the population growth is such that the recycling of souls seems implausible otherwise we would have a consistent population count meaning every death is followed by a birth 1:1  Now we all know that the population has increased and in fact in other areas like in Europe decreased.  Most families trend is replacement only yet there are still many that have more than 2 children.  So how then does your hypothesis deal with birth control?  That is an unnatural causation hence if I and my wife used not BC we could well have had 21 children by now.  Also they say some BC methods are mini abortions meaning that there was a fertilization that took place but the body is forced to reject the embryo, and I am not talking about the abortion pill.

So I guess you are saying in a parallel timeline I may be the father of 21 kids or more considering my messing around before I got married, hence I could end up with multiple wives and they too will have multiple husbands :eek: :mshock:  Maybe that is why it states we are not male nor female and are NOT given in marriage.

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Trans-Temporal Redemption Simplification and Clarification
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 10:11:32 PM »
Hi SeekerSA,

Thank you for reading my post and giving your feedback. :angel5: I take your message to heart about simplifying what I have to offer.  I suffer from a background in hard-science and would really like to write an article for PhD physicists (thus my over the top style), but feel guided to offer the message in Biblical terms at first.  Clearly, I need to submit my mind more deeply to the Lord and let a message of simplicity emerge that can be spoken from the mouth of a child.  I hope this post is better.

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I never considered parallel time lines and that is an interesting perspective yet the concept still ends off with a common goal.  I am guessing here but in a nutshell are you saying the ET folk will have the heaven they espouse and the UR folk the heaven they espous or IOW what we conceive in our minds becomes our personal relative reality?

I can relate to that as I have always seen the relationship to the Father to be a one-One and what we share here has commonality only in certain areas.

The logic of divine causation supports UR 100%, I guess I could have written it more clearly.  On the one hand I do affirm a one-one relationship with God, and hence a personal relative reality of sorts in that people can choose to reject God's Grace and Will on many different versions of history, and as a punishment fail to be born in a great many versions of history, an experience that could be truly hellish.  But since we are created in the image of God, there eventually comes a point where everyone will heed the call.  In this regard, UR comes via a relentless movement sideways in time into versions of history in which all people eventually turn to God and do His Will, even if from the perspective of mundane time they may have died the most unrepentant of sinners.  From a strict linear-time perspective there is the illusion of non-redemption for unrepentant sinners, but it is just that, an illusion.  From the perspective of a higher, sideways dimension of time in which God overcomes all sin, UR is an obvious reality.

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As for remembering our past, I think it is all there still, we just do not know how to access those memories.  Hypnotism shows that this can be achieved.  Possibly at conversion/enlightenment, a lock is placed on those non critical issues yet there is the matter of inner healing - a process of dealing with traumatic past events in that the brain blocks out these memories.  The process of inner healing brings these out via divine revelation and then one is helped to forgive the offender and "replace" that memory with say a scripture.  Having been through that process, it possibly can work as there we blocked things in my mind that were unblocked and dealt with, the memory is there but the pain associated is gone.

So in the case of suggesting the past can be altered, yes in a way but in reality is more just a present mechanism in dealing with a bad past experience, if I can still remember that which traumatised me but now no longer has any bearing on my present psyche then the past did happen and only the memories are changed.

I am not in any way referring to forms of healing in which the trauma of a bad event has been expunged from one's psyche, but the memories of the event remain.   I honor these lesser forms of healing, but in this thread I'm talking about a process in which Jesus Christ brings the forgiveness of the victims and repentance of the offenders together under His Power to excise bad events from the flow of history such that from a mundane perspective they "never happened in the first place."  Indeed, Jesus is continually tweaking the whole of history with the greatest of artistry.  Moreover, the deepest form of surrender possible is the forgiveness, repentance, and humility by which our own personal history can be changed, a depth of surrender in which we offer ourself to Jesus the same way a bride offers herself to her husband, and by which we become "pregnant" with the great blossoming of life that awaits.  It is this surrender that leads to the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit by which we can move simultaneously forward and sideways in time, and thereby "change timelines" without physically dying.

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Well in the sense that memories being completely obliterated, that would give credence to the ET perspective where they believe that together with tears being wiped away, memories will go too.  Now if that is true, I sure would not like that scenario but if it was eradicated, I would not be aware of my memories in the first place so it would not matter.  Pretty much like the movie MIB with that magic pen of theirs.

I believe our memories remain intact.  Now for Hitler and serial killers that alone would drive them nutz and would be hell in itself.  However the bible does say "behold I create all things anew"  If we then stay on the recall/remanufacture scenario then what purpose does this life then serve?  If we are to learn exponentially and then just get zapped with no recall then any POV of religion/faith is OK as it matters not.

I think this could be a dangerous line of thinking as that really portrays a message of no matter what you do, it does not matter and I do not think that is the message of UR.

As I understand it, memories remain intact on a spiritual level until an alternate timeline unfolds, and yes Hitler's soul is in a temporary hell of sorts, and given the description of near-death experiences it can be quite hellish.  In regard to the purpose of life, the choices we make really do matter, for the events in our life inspired by love, truth, righteousness, brotherhood, humility, charity, etc. are harvested by Jesus and tend to persist over even the most radical of changes to the flow of history, even if the details of our life are radically shuffled.  And even if some worthy events disappear on some versions of history, they "will" tend to reappear over and over on other versions of history.  The bad events; however, tend to disappear forever, and with continued sideways-in-time movement even the mediocre events will disappear, for such is the Power and Grace of God in the working of our salvation.

Notwithstanding the continual tweaking of history by Jesus, big changes can occur when versions of history get zapped by the Father because the entire planet has gone badly off course, with the classic example being a "previous" version of history in which Nazi Germany won WWII and conquered the entire planet.  Philip K. Dick wrote a couple of books of pulp science fiction with this as the setting.  In his memoirs, he wrote that God showed him that his setting was nonfiction and that it really did happen, and as a result he was too nauseated at the horror of what happened to finish the third book of the series.  Likewise, an all out nuclear war may have already happened on many previous versions of history, I have no definite knowledge of such, but if so the "big zap" is definitely the most merciful thing that could have happened.

PK Dick went on to say that God showed him that history not only unfolds forward-in-time as seen from the view of man, but also it unfolds sideways-in-time due to the ever present grace of God to save a fallen humanity from itself, and that this sideways-in-time change brings a continuous qualitative improvement to the nature of life via the grace of God as described above.  It's easy to dismiss his ideas as the ravings of a madman who took too much LSD, but three things convinced me to accept his idea of continuous sideways-in-time improvement as truth:

1.  His idea of sideways-in-time evolution correlates perfectly with the logic of time-symmetric thermodynamics which I read just prior to his memoirs, a system of hard scientific logic based on the application of quantum wave/particle duality to the definition of entropy and the reality of "vital energy" as a flow of backward-in-time energy.

2.  He was adamant that the entire process of sideways-in-time movement was anchored in the cross and that the events of the early Christian era are still playing out despite the appearance of being 2000 years in the past, and after 14 years of research I have found a very detailed correlation between the above logic and the message of the Bible.

3.  He said that God flipped the outcome of WWII by altering the outcome of several key events, something that dovetails perfectly with the historical record in that Hitler would have won were it not for a string of miraculous events wherein a single decision by Hitler or single small event could have completely flipped the war's outcome.

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I think that which you are suggesting is a way of covering all bases whereas the message of UR does it similar only that the channel or door WAY in is via Jesus Christ where every knee (believers and unbelievers) shall bow.

Salvation is certainly via Jesus Christ, all I'm talking about is the "mechanism."  Sorry for not making this clear.  The key issue is that the salvation we receive by grace must reflect itself outwardly in good works either on this version of history or some other so that the whole world may eventually know the grace of God both inwardly and outwardly, and receive the destiny that the Father has decreed for the whole of humanity.  Please consider the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in this:

1.  The Father decrees a reality that: a) is 100% lawful/self-consistent as an reflection of His Truth, b) has sideways-in-time potential as a reflection of His Mercy, and c) has stupendous potential for life as a reflection of His Life.  Pursuant to this, the Father decrees a transcendent cosmic destiny with a population in or beyond the sextillions where love, truth, humility, charity, righteousness, and brotherhood prevail on those versions of history in which humans freely embrace His Will.

2.  The Son harvests the events of each person's life that are consistent with the Father's Will and weaves them into "future" versions of history as mentioned earlier.  It is solely via Jesus that the memories and goodness of our lives are not only saved in the sideways movement from one version of history to the next, but saved so thoroughly that we have but one internally coherent life, albeit sideways in time with mundane memories and destinies that vary along the way.
 
3.  The Holy Spirit inspires to the love, truth, righteousness, brotherhood, humility, and good works that will eventually lead humanity to the destiny decreed by the Father.  To the extent that a Christian or even a non-Christian receives the Holy Spirit, the events of one's life will be like the threads of a beautiful tapestry.  If one refuses/blasphemes the Holy Spirit there will be very little for Jesus to save from one version of history to the next.

To use a metaphor, I see time as a two-dimensional tapestry in which mundane time goes forward from left to right, and different versions of history build from bottom to top.  The two dimensional structure is hinted at in the curious phrase in Revelation, "the ages of the ages" (i.e. ages sideways in time of ages of mundane time), one of the many places where the exact literal translation of the Bible hints at something of great significance.  The left hand-edge of the tapestry glows with preternatural brilliance in representing the original creation prior to the sin of Adam.  The bottom part of the tapestry is browns, greys, and other dark colors mixed with areas of pure black when we refuse Spirit entirely.  This portion represent the versions of history most deeply entangled with the fall, and includes versions of history such as those in which Hitler won WWII.  As we follow the tapestry upwards, the colors get lighter as versions of history come into existence in which our lives are more righteous, and when we find salvation in Christ, some of the events of our lives begin to glow with the brilliance of the original creation.  This portion includes more "recent" versions of history in which Hitler lost WWII, and going a bit higher will include versions of history in which Hitler was removed from power in a coup.  Going still higher, the events of our lives will form an increasingly beautiful artwork, and will include more enlightened versions of history in which WWI ended on much less vindictive terms, Hitler was a successful artist, and WWII never even happened, and so on.

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This hypothesis also nullifies the reincarnation model as why come back if each time you return zapped with a clean sheet?  Surely if reincarnation is true, we should have memories of what we did wrong.  The reincarnation aspect IMO leaves too much to chance and is no better a theology of the ET folk that say you need to geddit right in this lifetime also based on chance.  Furthermore, the population growth is such that the recycling of souls seems implausible otherwise we would have a consistent population count meaning every death is followed by a birth 1:1  Now we all know that the population has increased and in fact in other areas like in Europe decreased.  Most families trend is replacement only yet there are still many that have more than 2 children.  So how then does your hypothesis deal with birth control?  That is an unnatural causation hence if I and my wife used not BC we could well have had 21 children by now.  Also they say some BC methods are mini abortions meaning that there was a fertilization that took place but the body is forced to reject the embryo, and I am not talking about the abortion pill.

The logic of divine causation affirms the creation of a new soul each time a person is conceived as per mainstream Christian theology, a soul that will never die and will eventually find its place on numerous timelines that partake of the cosmic destiny in perfect harmony with universalist theology.  Reincarnation requires a separate thread, but suffice to say that a tremendous amount of confusion arises from the failure of both Christians and non-Christians to properly distinguish between souls which do not "reincarnate" but instead seek resurrection in parallel timelines whereby they can expunge memories of evil, and spirits of power which "reincarnate" in the way Elijah "reincarnated" as John the Baptist, and will again "reincarnate" in the "end-times" as per Malachi 4:5-6 and Matthew 17:11.  Far more important, is the fact that soul represents the entanglement of time-reverse "vital energy" with the matter and energy of the mundane realm, an energy needed for the self-organization of that person's body and maintenance of health at all stages of growth and development.  And because this vital energy is of an inherently time-reverse nature, its entanglement with the mundane realm via a conception can never be reversed, even if a person's body dies or is aborted.

As far as BC and abortion go, there is no human action that more entangles humanity with its fallenness than abortion as a means of birth control, especially in the context of promiscuous sexuality, for it is God's Will that every soul receive His/Her full measure of life. As such, a host of aborted fetuses with even one partner is bad, and with an array of partners its creates a royal mess that Jesus will have to eventually straighten out in alternate timelines via the shuffling of partners.  And since the hidden abortions inherent to hormonal contraceptives and other forms of BC occur at 6-10 times the rate of reported abortions, the situation is much worse than most are aware of, thus instead of having 50 million cumulative abortions in the US since 1973, there have really been 300-500 million abortions.  Even worse are the myriad embryos that could be created and destroyed if the procedures for producing medical stem cells do not safeguard the life of embryos but instead treat them as an industrial resource.  This could easily result in myriads of embryos being created from people who have never even met each other, yet in alternate timelines would have to meet each other and at the very least conceive and birth these "industrial embryos."

Jesus will save every one of these aborted souls and assure that they receive the fullness of life via the creation of alternate timelines, and will do so without violating the self-consistency of reality that has been decreed by the Father.  The caveat is that the number of fetuses now being aborted is so huge that humanity is rapidly approaching the limit of what can be repaired within of constraint of universal self-consistency, at which point the Father will intervene and mandate apocalyptic destruction.  In short, the unintegrated vital energy of aborted and murdered people can only be repaired via sideways movement in time by which these people can be restored to life.  We may not be aware of this repair process because our memories change with the changing of the past, but it is very real.  And if the unintegrated vital energy of murdered and aborted people builds up faster than it is being repaired, God will let this version of history self-destruct to prevent temporal paradox. 

It is not preordained that a destructive scenario must occur, for people can always turn their hearts to God.  But it is preordained that if abortions, murder, and war continue on a large scale, then Islamic and ecological fanaticism will build to monumental levels of mass-insanity at the exact same moment the global economic system is collapsing due to trade imbalances and runaway debts, at which point this version of history will be toast.  And given the gross misdirection of global society that now exists, the only real hope is a major "end-time" Pentecost that turns the hearts of people to God while at the same time radically increasing our movement sideways in time.  The key to this "end-time" Pentecost is the Bible, and if we don't unlock the full meaning of God's Word ASAP, we'll be begging God's forgiveness in failing the great commission, and begging Jesus for the big "memory zap" by which we could forget the horror of apocalyptic destruction via the creation of an alternate timeline.

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So I guess you are saying in a parallel timeline I may be the father of 21 kids or more considering my messing around before I got married, hence I could end up with multiple wives and they too will have multiple husbands    Maybe that is why it states we are not male nor female and are NOT given in marriage.

Yes, you may indeed be the father of 21 kids given the spontaneous abortions inherent to most forms of BC, and regardless of the exact number, rest assured you will love them and be there as a father on a great many "future" versions of history.  And yes, it is for this reason that Jesus said we will not marry nor be given in marriage in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Someday as humanity moves sideways in time high up in the tapestry of time, you, many of your partners, and many of their partners may live in a communal marriage, but this will happen in God's Time on unfallen versions of history in which scripture itself will affirm this. (Indeed, the one way the Bible itself can legitimately change is in our movement sideways in time, for God is in no way constrained to the exact same message from timeline to timeline.)  For now, our challenge is to humbly accept the Bible we now have, unlock its many secrets, and by this means prevent apocalyptic destruction.

 :dsunny:  :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 07:04:38 AM by True Believer »

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 01:01:01 AM »
Surprise, it isn't a new approach to biblical universalism. This is how I interpreted Origen viewed reality just without the scientific terms we know today. I actually expanded on this view a lot here in Tentmaker.

I have always believed that God gives us an answer to prayer when done out of sincere motives, and all my life as a child I had very strong faith in the power of God to show me things that I may not understand at the time, but it would come back to remembrance. Many years ago when I was 13, my cousin and I taught Scripture and other biblical concepts. One day as we were in intense prayer, one of the questions we asked God was concerning the concept of infinity. All of a sudden both Blayne (my cousin) and myself felt light headed and then we saw something like reality just rip before us and we saw layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of reality bundled before us. We had no idea what we were looking at but the information we saw things which even to this day I have a hard time explaining. Then we both had headaches for the rest of the day as our mind was processing all the information we were seeing. At the time, I had no idea of quantum, or folded membranes, except what we were told in Star Trek. Even to this day when I talk to my cousin, we both agree whatever happened to us in my room praying to God is still unexplainable but I knew that what I saw was more than this reality.

I have hidden in a folder online in which I have my private writings. This is an essay I wrote at age 23 concerning this vision.

Let me find it....
Here it is...

REMEMBER EVERYONE WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ WAS WRITTEN PRIOR TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION. IT WAS MY THOUGHTS ON WHAT I SAW WHEN I WAS 13.
-------------------


I have studied the concept of God being in the realm of Eternity since I was 13 years old. The Lord gave me this following revelation at a very young age and never have I been able to word it in this manner without giving myself a headache. Reading it now, it seems to flow perfectly to what I have been trying to explain for the last 10 years. You can imagine, the first time I tried to tackle this subject of Predestination the combination of a soverign God and the ability for an individual to free make up their mind and choose their destiny. Now this may not be your view, which is absolutely acceptable

-------------------

If you have any interest in science and quantum physics. This revelation was one of the many theories that has actually risen to conclusion of probability  when it comes to time travel. If a person is able to travel outside the realm of time and space. They are able to be in all places at one time and are able to change circumstance without the need of cause and effect (since time is not an issue). Literally, scientists, who do not believe in God, came up with this theory: if you were to somehow achieve the infinite power needed to advance yourself outside the realm of space and time, you can literally yourself be like God. Now before you throw stones, realize it is impossible to have ever and ever obtain infinite power to do this. God however is Infinite in all His ways and the following example will explain how this affects His own creation.

To give my interpretation of Predestination in the most simplified manner will take some logic to understand. God is not constrained to the linear space and time as we are. In fact He exists in a third dimension of time which knows every outcome but can change every outcome at the same time. Our minds cannot fathom the infinite possiblities and infinite space that God has created and maintains. He is God and as such He is the only who One who has this compasity.

So to give it an illustration:

There are two types of space we can see being that we are three dimenisonal beings. We can create and see the Width, Length, and Height (X,Y,Z). and we can also create and see the world of the two dimensional such as paintings and basic geometric shapes on flat surface etchings. Although the shading may make it appear three-dimensional when you draw a cube, it is just a bunch of linear points connected, unlike if you were to sculpt a cube or fill an ice tray with water, freezing it and producing a cube of ice.

If we were two dimensional beings we could only see width and length (X,Y) and since it is impossible for us to see (Z) we can only give the logic that X and Y are the only variables that we have availible and we must follow the points to witness them. Example: A -------------------------- B. We would imagine a third dimensional being could actually raise himself above the points of A and B (X,Y) and always know the ending without needing to walk the linear passage to see it.

Now being three dimensional beings, we have the ability to erase sagments of A -------------------------- B and make them A -- B or change the letters to  A -------------------------- C. Since we are three dimensional beings we have the power to do so.

Now that is an example of space, but let us remove the space and replace it with time. We live in a two dimensional time grid. We can only see from point A to B because we had to start at A and wait until B arrives. However, along the way a three dimensional time Being, gave us a chance to actually remove various sagments, allowing us through His Name the ability to move mountains and have the ability to converse with this three dimensional time being. He could literally see the path you are on and the path you have taken but he can easily intercede by your request and take out segments that naturally should have been there. So you start out as A -------------------------- B and B=Hell. However somewhere between A -------------------------- B the Word of this Being was presented to you and you recieve this and become a child of this three dimensional being. He would have changed the result from A -------------------------- C and C=Heaven! Perhaps you made mistakes in your past and you in between A -------------------------- C you have made an error that cannot be naturally reverse by your own two dimensional properties. The three-dimensional being can easily change the circumstance and result without you actually even realizing it, so now instead of A -------------------------- C you have A ------ C. However, since you are a two dimensional being, you actually have not memory of A -------------------------- C nor of A -------------------------- B you have only the knowledge that the life you live is now A ------ C. This all because a three dimensional being came along in your life and had the authority and power and gave it to you in His Name.

That is as simple as I can put it without complicating it further and losing the concept. God is that Three Dimensional Being, we are only two dimensional beings. We cannot comprehend or even fathom the power of God to know all things including the things that were, but never came to pass.

Does God want us to ask for guidence?

Jeremiah 33:3: "Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know"

John 16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

The crux of the problem is that the Word of God also states none actually seek God by their nature. (Romans 3:9-18) So we are in need of a messenger or message of God to intervene in our lives to actually earnestly seek him. (Romans 10:14-15; Hebrews 11:6)

Does God know the future?

He does! According to: (Isaiah 46:9-10; Psalms 139:16; Jeremiah 29:11)

Proverbs 5:21 "For a man's ways are in full view of the Lord and he axamines all his paths."

The Lord does know our heart and our ways, seeing the pathes we are on. (Psalm 139:1-6 a beautiful passage.)

Does God Actively Intervene?

The book of Job in many peoples opinion that God did not intervene for his servant Job. However, He did prevent satan from doing certain things to Job. Although Job did not see the intervention, it does not mean it was not so.

There is however times when God's intervention changed the course of mankind. At the time of the great flood, God had seen the wickedness of the people and their wickedness had caused a chain reaction which would bring forth their complete destruction.

Genesis 6:6-7 "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."

The Lord would have done so if it were not for one man who found favor in the eyes of the Lord, He would have done it. However one man found favor and it was Noah who appealed to the Grace of God and through that, it was adverted.

Another time, God saw the wickedness of Nineveh and devinely intervined by calling forth Jonah to preach. Jonah ran away, but God devinely intervened and changed Jonah's coarse and in Jonah 3:10 "When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened."

Perhaps the most wonderful intervention is the event of Christ Jesus being sent to the Cross to die in propitation for our sin (Galations 2:20; Romans 8:31-29; Ephesans 2:1-3) For if this event did not occur, we would die in our sin and get our just reward. The Lord brought messengers of angels and of men to the world to save it through His Word, another divine intervention. Those who should be sick are healed of their illness through supernatural gifts of God, another point of devine intervention. Despite the most laid out plans of man, God intervenes!

Conclusion

Perhaps a great verse that summerized my revelation of God's position is Daniel 2:21.

Daniel 2:21 "He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning

----------------------

REMEMBER THAT I SEE THINGS A BIT DIFFERENTLY NOW THAN THEN. THIS IS JUST FOR READING SAKE, THIS IS NOT WHAT I CURRENTLY BELIEVE, THOUGH THERE ARE ASPECTS WHICH ARE WRITTEN HERE WHICH I BELIEVE.


« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 01:16:49 AM by SOtW »

joyful1

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 01:06:39 AM »
pouring coffee and checking the time....can I make it to Wal-Mart and get 5 refills for my printer before they close?  :laughing7:
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 01:19:27 AM by joyful1 »

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 01:21:20 AM »
I also saw the Story in the same way you did True Believer. That Nineveh was destroyed in an alternate reality which God had seen, and God intervened and the people repented.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 01:23:10 AM by SOtW »

Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 03:24:51 AM »
willieH:  Hi True Believer... :hithere:

I REALLY... REALLY, do not mean to offend you new brother... but   :blahgreen: :lazy:  ...Just kidn!   :icon_jokercolor:

If you take offense at this response, ...then you do,  and there is nothing I can do other than to note that I mean NONE of this response as offensive to YOU... but to your WORDS... well, ...they speak (or dont speak) for themselves...

The theme of this post is that mutability of the past is the very mechanism of salvation, and that if people do not find salvation in one version of history they can and will eventually find it in another.  This post will give a superficial introduction to the logic of time-symmetric causation and its overall relation to the Bible.  After that, it will show that mutability of the past is solidly rooted in the Bible, and resolve several Biblical paradoxes.

A host of Biblical passages tell us that the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world, and the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God, and nowhere is this more true than in the understanding of divine causation.  Indeed, there are  few areas where the carnal mind is more tenacious than its tendency to view "time" from a mundane perspective, i.e. to view it as a simple unidirectional process in which "cause" always precedes "effect."  This perspective leads to the view of hard scientific materialism in which the past is fixed and "natural" forward-in-time causation is all that exists.  It is a point of view that denies the power of God over time, and constrains the influence of God to the Deist belief that God sets the universe in motion and lets it run without further interaction, a set of beliefs that are utterly incompatible with the message and logic of scripture.  Taken to the utmost extreme, this view of time leads to the "block-time" of Einsteinian relativity where time assumes qualities akin to that of a spatial dimension, within which every single event in the cosmos is totally predestined, a belief that has the same core defect as Calvinist theology.

The central axiom of Judeo-Christian belief is that prophecy and miracles are both real, and that via these phenomena a transcendent God is intimately involved with the unfoldment of history.  If we were to explore this logically and assume that the interaction of God and physical reality is totally self-consistent (i.e. lawful), we would be forced to conclude that a system of time-symmetric causation exists in which "effect" can sometimes precede "cause."  This is foolishness to the world, yet for the Holy Spirit it is always thus, for what is prophecy but the backward-in-time flow of information, and what is a miracle but an event in which God momentarily frees us from the bondage of mundane causation?  People enslaved to the carnal mind will argue that the concept of time-symmetric causation is mere circular logic and would lead to paradoxes if it really existed (e.g. a person altering the past to kill his/her great grandfather as a youth).  For certain, feedback loops between past and future exist, and indeed they are the very means by which the soul of a person can exist as a trans-temporal entity with a life and will of its own.  But there is no paradox, for the changes to the past that can occur via the time-reverse aspect of causation are logically valid.

The reason that changes to the past are logically valid is because they lead not to the infinite regress of simple circular logic in which the very structure of reality would dissolve into chaos, but to an infinite regress into higher- dimensional spaces that has the capacity to hold and order an infinity of parallel timelines.  Indeed, this infinite regress has every characteristic that we traditionally attribute to "God" including: a) eternalness, b) the power of creation, c) ontological supremacy, d) omnipresence, e) omniscience, f) omnipotence, and g) utter benignity.  The scientific logic behind this can be explored in a future thread if desired.  For now, note that the above overview of divine causation affirms the key Biblical themes of prophecy, miracles, free-will, and the utter transcendence of God.

Since multiple timelines are inherent to the mutability of the past, some might object that this conflicts with the message of Hebrews 9:27 that men die (and live) once.  But this confuses the changing details of our one life and death with the essential nature of our life, an essential nature transcendent to time as per our creation in the image of God.  In this regard, the "fall" (i.e. the spiritual death that brings physical death) is an unnatural fixedness to the past in which mistakes and entropic damage accumulate faster than they can be repaired via changes to the past.

In regard to scriptural support for mutability of the past, the first things to note are the passages of Ecclesiastes 12:14, I Corinthians 4:5, and Hebrews 4:13 which affirm the omniscience of God by telling us that nothing is hidden from God, and that He will bring every deed into judgement.  None the less, Isaiah 25:16 tells us point blank that our past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from the eyes of God.  Sure, I'm taking a verse literally that most take poetically.  But this just begs the question of whether God can change the past so that a person's troubles (and sins) are so thoroughly expunged from the fabric of reality that they "never happened in the first place."  In direct support of this, the very next verse tells us, "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind," an affirmation of a change so deep that even our memory of the past is affected.  Job 11:6 further affirms this when Zophar tells Job that God has forgotten some of his sins.

An equally great but slightly more obscure affirmation of the mutability of the past is inherent to the prophecy of Nineveh's destruction in the book of Jonah, a situation in which a prophecy that failed to come true was canonized in scripture.  The key issue is that an unconditional prophecy was canceled because the people repented.  A proper interpretation that honors the transcendence of God would be that God saw the destruction He wrought on one timeline and spun off a new timeline when the people repented.  With a conditional prophecy we could assume a single version of history with two prophesied outcomes, something that would satisfy the carnal mind.  But with an unconditional prophecy, the only alternative to parallel timelines is to assume that God lied or that Jonah was a false prophet.

Parallel timelines are also the perfect explanation for the narrative discrepancies between the various books of the New Testament.  Because the mundane mind assumes that there is only one version of history, skeptics are forever putting Christians on the defensive by highlighting the near-impossibility of integrating these divergent narratives into a single sequence of events.  On the other hand, if we remember that the Crucifixion/resurrection is the very focal point through which all versions of history must flow if universal redemption is true, we can jettison the apologetic contortions.  Indeed nothing could more honor the reality of God made flesh, than a scenario in which Jesus so thoroughly welded and sorted the myriad alternative timelines of humanity, that the New Testament could bring together the wisdom of numerous timelines due to the transcendent presence of Jesus at the very heart of it.

Likewise, we have conflicting prophecies from the entire Bible between "end-time" scenarios of total destruction, small remnants surviving, and multitudes praising the glory of God, with the book of Revelation being a perfect microcosm of these divergent scenarios.  From the perspective of the carnal mind, these prophecies are hopelessly contradictory.  From the perspective of the carnal mind wrestling with the Truth of Spirit, we have faith that the Bible is true but then falsify it by with contorted eschatologies that attempt to string these prophecies together in a way that was never intended.  From the perspective of the Spirit, we honor a God who transcends not just a single version of history, but the entirety of all versions of history that could ever exist.  A God so transcendent, He can afford to let humans have free-will, and so loving as to create as many timelines as needed for all to be saved.

Viewed from this perspective, the conflict between salvation by grace and by faith dissolves once we realize that an omnipotent God can by grace spin off as many versions of history as necessary until a person finds faith in God.  Likewise, the nominally eternal damnation that might exist from a mundane perspective is trumped by the creation of parallel timelines transcendent to mundane time.  In this regard, the lake of fire is nothing but the innumerable timelines a person could go through for "the ages of the ages" until they turn to God.  Indeed, even Adolph Hitler and Genghis Khan can be trivially forgiven if on some alternate version of history they surrender their heart to God and choose a different life.  With this, consider the demand by a skeptic of UR for scriptural affirmation of the following:

1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

For certain, each of these can be affirmed by quoting the appropriate verses of the Bible, but it can be like a heated battle if each camp feels that the other is systematically misinterpreting the Bible.  By contrast, if we can show that the Bible systematically affirms an omnipotent God actively creating parallel timelines, this entire set of issues dissolve into nothingness.  A future thread will show how the Bible systematically affirms the transcendent cosmic destiny that must exist if time-symmetric causation is for real.  For now, I invite scriptural discussion both pro and con for the concept of trans-temporal salvation just presented.

 :icon_flower:

I vote CON!   :eek:

Trans-temporal salvation... is that what I just (sort of) ...read?  :help:

 :omg:  WOW! ...let me rephrase that, ...WHEW! :heat:  What a mouthful!   :mshock:

When I was a young man (40+years ago -- old fart now!)... my sister had a boyfriend (maybe it was YOU in another "time line" :dunno:)... who figured to impress others extensively with his knowledge, but as it turned out, ...most of the people he spoke to, didn't pay much attention to him, ...for he lacked one thing in all he "knew"...

HOW to COMMUNICATE!  :sigh:

I am a pro-musician, and have continuously made my livelihood as one for over 40yrs... (still do!)

This post reminds me of the "hot" JAZZ musicians who THINK they are better players than I,  ...but who sit and watch ME make MONEY, as they criticize and mock what I do... :rolleye:  (while they spend THEIR money, which pays MY paycheck) :pointlaugh: 

Your wordings are to say the least, ...confusing... and "word-wise" go from New York to Los Angeles and back, just to "cross the street"!

To begin with you mention several things which Biblically speaking, are IMAGINARY (possibly due to "multiple STARGATE episode syndrome")... and in an attempt as a FINITE to gain INFINITE DIVINE perspective, which is (finitely impossible), your words, often trip and stumble over themselves... 

Forgive me bro, ...I'm just your run of the mill, uneducated (I did get to and thru, the 12th grade) DING-DONG musician... but ...sometimes I ain't speak right...

However... continuing on...

Trans-temporal Salvation... is an UNBIBLICAL topic... a coulda-woulda-shoulda kind of thing...  :sigh:

You are welcome to envision the History of Mankind to have been a scenario which encompassed mulitple possibilities and "timelines" but regardless,

The fact remains that the Scriptures DO promote PREDESTINATION (Rom 9:11 / Eph 2:10), and the DO promote a "that's the way it is" teaching, as GOD has noted (and He is ETERNALLY TRUTHFUL)... that He DECLARED the END, from the BEGINNING (Is 46:10-11)... which means there are NO... "coulda's... NO "woulda's... NO "shoulda's... and NO "Transa-temporala Salvationa's"   :mnah: 

Which if TRUE, ...would mean that HE within HIS WORK, also CHANGES or fluxuates (Mal 3:6) which HE does NOT... 

And your proposal further theorizes that WORD bears false witness in that it also floats upon that same sea of fluxuation... (if there are in fact MULTIPLE possibilities or timelines) as SCRIPTURE states JESUS CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday today and for ever (Heb 13:8)

You endeavor to replace the statements made by the Almighty with contrived theories which have no basis in reality... nor can be proven to be so... and are found rubbing shoulders, in the company of EVOLUTION, and its "POSSIBILITIES"...

The proposal that something (anything) COULD HAVE happened as opposed to what ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ...is IMAGINARY, ...not REALITY...

Saying in essence, that what IS WRITTEN, in fact... fluxuates and is NOT TRUTHFUL, rather is just one of MYRIADS of possible outcomes which GOD chose to be so in this "timeline"...  :thumbdown:

YOU propose in THEORY:  Adam "could've" obeyed... but,
SCRIPTURE SAYS:   HE DID NOT... (Gen 3:6)

The proposal that "he could've obeyed" is FICTIONAL and CONTRARY to that which is stated in GOD's WORD... which DOES NOT CHANGE!

The TRUTH ...IS...  He DID NOT OBEY... the LIE ...IS... that He "could've"...

REALITY IS... what actually TOOK PLACE!   :dontknow:  NOT what "could've" taken place...

To propose alternatives as do you in this lengthy unfounded THEORY, is FICTIONAL... and IRRELEVANT...  :msealed:

Because it would be an extensive and exhaustive work which would involve massive amounts of my time to note all IMAGINARY portions within it... I'll leave the INTELLECTUAL crowd to entertain themselves with your post...

Concluding this response with this thought... SIMPLIFY... then you shall have the best chance to communicate to the most people...  :mwink:

I do SINCERELY  :giveheart: wish you UNDERSTANDING, ...and suggest that maybe a hiatus from sci-fi would be helpful in gaining it...

peACe...
...willieH  :king:

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 08:54:48 AM »
It's not unbiblical WillieH, I actually believed in Trans-Temperal Salvation prior to Universal Salvation based on biblical principles. Before you say it is unbiblical, you need to demonstrate how it isn't and refute the position properly.

True Believer

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 06:51:34 PM »
Hi Steward of the Word,

Quote
Surprise, it isn't a new approach to biblical universalism. This is how I interpreted Origen viewed reality just without the scientific terms we know today. I actually expanded on this view a lot here in Tentmaker.

:Oops: 

I was not aware of your own writings in this area, and vaguely remember Origen's viewpoint but had forgotten it years ago.  I should have been more cautious with the title.   I'd like to see the threads where you discussed this, can you post some links.  Based on your response in the Hitler thread, and the response from willieH in this thread, I'm guessing that it had little overall impact on the discussion of UR.  Is this true?  I hope it will be different this time, for the logic of trans-temporal redemption is second only to the power of Love to bring mainstream Christianity to the truth of UR, and given what is happening in the areas of war, murder, and abortion, we will need every advantage.  Perhaps we can work together and approach this idea from angles that will have broader appeal.

Quote
I have always believed that God gives us an answer to prayer when done out of sincere motives, and all my life as a child I had very strong faith in the power of God to show me things that I may not understand at the time, but it would come back to remembrance. Many years ago when I was 13, my cousin and I taught Scripture and other biblical concepts. One day as we were in intense prayer, one of the questions we asked God was concerning the concept of infinity. All of a sudden both Blayne (my cousin) and myself felt light headed and then we saw something like reality just rip before us and we saw layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of layers of reality bundled before us. We had no idea what we were looking at but the information we saw things which even to this day I have a hard time explaining. Then we both had headaches for the rest of the day as our mind was processing all the information we were seeing. At the time, I had no idea of quantum, or folded membranes, except what we were told in Star Trek. Even to this day when I talk to my cousin, we both agree whatever happened to us in my room praying to God is still unexplainable but I knew that what I saw was more than this reality.


You had a direct prophetic revelation, and like always the prophet is not heeded. :sigh: And thank you for sharing what you wrote when you were 13, wisdom from the young. I'm happy to see that you appear to have come through relatively unscathed.  Philip K Dick had a similar revelation that was so intense he wound up spending some time in the nuthouse.  Going back further, Thomas Aquinas had a monumental revelation near the end of his life.  He stopped working on his magnum opus, said that everything he ever wrote was trash, went home to settle up his affairs, and died a few weeks later.  Perhaps now that we are getting closer to the Day of the Lord there is more capacity to receive and integrate direct revelation.  I was lucky in having more of an indirect revelation in which the Holy Spirit was able to guide me deeper into logic of quantum reality, but still it has been a rough journey for the power of God can grip the deepest part of our soul when we really invite Him in.  :bigGrin:

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 01:53:06 AM »
well, I'm game.  And those that know me know that I'm not game for much--for instance, I do not believe in evolution, nor that there will ever be any proof of it.  But I'm willing to entertain this theory--at least until I can understand it, rofl.

Like many, I've noticed that the beginning seems to start in the middle.


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


--Gen 1



Now the God I know would never create anything formless and empty and covered with darkness.  So I always find myself asking--what happened to bring this about?

And, we see more evidence that something happened--



28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

--Gen 1


So, does this fit in somehow to your theory?

martincisneros

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 02:29:09 AM »
I vote CON!   :eek:

Trans-temporal salvation... is that what I just (sort of) ...read?  :help:

 :omg:  WOW! ...let me rephrase that, ...WHEW! :heat:  What a mouthful!   :mshock:

When I was a young man (40+years ago -- old fart now!)... my sister had a boyfriend (maybe it was YOU in another "time line" :dunno:)... who figured to impress others extensively with his knowledge, but as it turned out, ...most of the people he spoke to, didn't pay much attention to him, ...for he lacked one thing in all he "knew"...

HOW to COMMUNICATE!  :sigh:

I am a pro-musician, and have continuously made my livelihood as one for over 40yrs... (still do!)

This post reminds me of the "hot" JAZZ musicians who THINK they are better players than I,  ...but who sit and watch ME make MONEY, as they criticize and mock what I do... :rolleye:  (while they spend THEIR money, which pays MY paycheck) :pointlaugh: 

Your wordings are to say the least, ...confusing... and "word-wise" go from New York to Los Angeles and back, just to "cross the street"!

To begin with you mention several things which Biblically speaking, are IMAGINARY (possibly due to "multiple STARGATE episode syndrome")... and in an attempt as a FINITE to gain INFINITE DIVINE perspective, which is (finitely impossible), your words, often trip and stumble over themselves... 

Forgive me bro, ...I'm just your run of the mill, uneducated (I did get to and thru, the 12th grade) DING-DONG musician... but ...sometimes I ain't speak right...

However... continuing on...

Trans-temporal Salvation... is an UNBIBLICAL topic... a coulda-woulda-shoulda kind of thing...  :sigh:

You are welcome to envision the History of Mankind to have been a scenario which encompassed mulitple possibilities and "timelines" but regardless,

The fact remains that the Scriptures DO promote PREDESTINATION (Rom 9:11 / Eph 2:10), and the DO promote a "that's the way it is" teaching, as GOD has noted (and He is ETERNALLY TRUTHFUL)... that He DECLARED the END, from the BEGINNING (Is 46:10-11)... which means there are NO... "coulda's... NO "woulda's... NO "shoulda's... and NO "Transa-temporala Salvationa's"   :mnah: 

Which if TRUE, ...would mean that HE within HIS WORK, also CHANGES or fluxuates (Mal 3:6) which HE does NOT... 

And your proposal further theorizes that WORD bears false witness in that it also floats upon that same sea of fluxuation... (if there are in fact MULTIPLE possibilities or timelines) as SCRIPTURE states JESUS CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday today and for ever (Heb 13:8)

You endeavor to replace the statements made by the Almighty with contrived theories which have no basis in reality... nor can be proven to be so... and are found rubbing shoulders, in the company of EVOLUTION, and its "POSSIBILITIES"...

The proposal that something (anything) COULD HAVE happened as opposed to what ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ...is IMAGINARY, ...not REALITY...

Saying in essence, that what IS WRITTEN, in fact... fluxuates and is NOT TRUTHFUL, rather is just one of MYRIADS of possible outcomes which GOD chose to be so in this "timeline"...  :thumbdown:

YOU propose in THEORY:  Adam "could've" obeyed... but,
SCRIPTURE SAYS:   HE DID NOT... (Gen 3:6)

The proposal that "he could've obeyed" is FICTIONAL and CONTRARY to that which is stated in GOD's WORD... which DOES NOT CHANGE!

The TRUTH ...IS...  He DID NOT OBEY... the LIE ...IS... that He "could've"...

REALITY IS... what actually TOOK PLACE!   :dontknow:  NOT what "could've" taken place...

To propose alternatives as do you in this lengthy unfounded THEORY, is FICTIONAL... and IRRELEVANT...  :msealed:

Because it would be an extensive and exhaustive work which would involve massive amounts of my time to note all IMAGINARY portions within it... I'll leave the INTELLECTUAL crowd to entertain themselves with your post...

Concluding this response with this thought... SIMPLIFY... then you shall have the best chance to communicate to the most people...  :mwink:

I do SINCERELY  :giveheart: wish you UNDERSTANDING, ...and suggest that maybe a hiatus from sci-fi would be helpful in gaining it...

peACe...
...willieH  :king:

Geez, WillieH,

 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Making me glad that I've always kept it simple around here :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

ROFLOL!!

Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 04:15:04 AM »
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

It's not unbiblical WillieH, I actually believed in Trans-Temperal Salvation prior to Universal Salvation based on biblical principles. Before you say it is unbiblical, you need to demonstrate how it isn't and refute the position properly.

The BURDEN of this fantasy is not on me Craig!  I dont NEED to do anything! 

I have already stated that it is ANTI-SCRIPTURAL in proposal, for it notes FLUXUATION in the ALMIGHTY, which the WORD says does NOT CHANGE...

As multiple TIMELINES are proposed to be available... which means that the WORD is put on the defensive by it in so many places, I shudder to note them... defeating such notations as Rom 9:11... for other "timelines" if they are indeed real and accessible... they could have made the outcome of this verse DIFFERENT than is noted...

It also defeats the DECLARATION of GOD ...being the END from the BEGINNING... for if the outcomes are subject to CHANGE, then the DECLARATION becomes subject to those "changes"...

Reducing Him to a mere "forcaster" because of FOREKNOWLEDGE... rather than ALMIGHTY because it comes down like it does, because HE SAID it would...

It is upon either TB or yourself (if you believe it to be so)... to ESTABLISH it... then there is something to REFUTE other than an OPINION...  :dontknow:

Until it is Biblically established, as far as I am concerned (I only speak for myself), it is NOT ESTABLISHED, and isn't worthy to be addressed... something like "refuting" GHOSTS...  It doesn't exist until an existence (not theory) is actually established.

Until then, ...It is no more than, ...more of the same nonsense as EVOLUTION...

If you believe these proposals to be so, then state your case bro... I'll address it if you can establish something other than an UNSCRIPTURAL opinionated theory... which is all it amounts to at present...

And whichever of you decide to do this, please if you would, ...leave out the 25cent words, or it will be ignored, at least by me...  :grin:

You know me by now, but TB does not... I am not impressed with OBESE and inflated NON-COMMUNICATIVE  vocabulary's, ...nor am I prone to continuously look up words in a dictionary, just to have a discussion...  :dontknow:

Show Scripture upon which it is based... and use common/simple terminology in doing so...  :dontknow:

If you or TB, cannot... then it is no more than Stargate-like or Sci-Fi --- imaginations of the mind, and as far as I am concerned,  a purposed DECEPTION and DISTRACTION from the TRUTH which actually, IS in the WORD...

TB earlier, noted that "Parallel Timelines" are part of the ARMOR of GOD!  Please!  :laughing7:  If he can't do any better than that... well...  :grave:

Such imaginary foolishness is NOT in the WORD, and is not therefore, worthy of any further discussion...

peACe...
...willieH  :king:

Offline willieH

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 04:21:46 AM »

willieH: Hi M! :hithere:


Geez, WillieH,

 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Making me glad that I've always kept it simple around here :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

ROFLOL!!

Don't fret none bro!  :laughing7: Here's a "one-liner":  1 - _________   :laughhand:

peACe...
...willieH  :king:

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 05:57:16 AM »
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The BURDEN of this fantasy is not on me Craig!  I dont NEED to do anything! 

Then you did not refute it, and therefore you cannot say it is unbiblical. I could say the whole pre-existance thing is fantasy, I don't need to do anything, but I don't. I prove it is not practical or biblical to make the conclusion. Anything else is just your opinion backed up by your belief that you think you know what is fantasy and what is not.

I hold reservations on Trans-Temporal Redemption as True Believer presented it, but it doesn't mean it is unbiblical. I have studied this since my vision at age 13, God is outside Time & Space, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and that means there does not need to be multiple universes of time-space, He can simply change anything from the beginning to end, repeatedly, if that is indeed what God provisioned to do. That is the reality of a CREATED universe of time/space, and a CREATOR who created it can mold it in anyway. We are Linear, He is an Omni. He IS the Beginning and the End, therefore all things Start and End with Him, which means time/space also is within this sphere of influence. God does not ontologically and intrinsically change, but He has changed His mind, intervened, guides steps, etc.

Without demonstrating your disagreement, and making off-cuff comments, you disrespect the person you disagree with who is also your brother in the Lord. Not only do you disrespect them, you do not show them the error of their way so that they may return to all truth. There is a lot wrong with that attitude. It is God's Patience, Kindness and Tolerance which brings repentance, and we are to have these qualities in abundance in order to be effective and productive in the Knowledge of the Truth.

Thanks for understanding and not reacting, but responding.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 06:05:27 AM by SOtW »

martincisneros

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2008, 06:28:36 AM »

willieH: Hi M! :hithere:

Don't fret none bro!  :laughing7: Here's a "one-liner":  1 - _________   :laughhand:


Hi WillieH,

I think it's something lost in the semantics.  If I've understood things, they're envisioning more of a chess game, while I think you're envisioning [in what's been said thus far] much more chaos and God running around behind the devil putting out all of his fires one by one in a futile, reactionary way than they're meaning to propose.  I've said similar stuff before, though in the way that I put it I was talking more along the lines of the multi-universe version of Quantum Mechanics rather than viewing our time line as an equator on a globe and God being at the North Pole being able to drop down an infinite number of meridians to intervene as He pleased on our time-line. 

I do see the gray areas that are making you apprehensive of this model, WillieH, but I'm not sure that I've seen a presentation style yet of the Larger Hope that a sufficiently brilliant philosopher somewhere couldn't find fault with, with either finding God too controling or too flippant until the train's about to hit the brick wall, or in some other way finding problems with it.  I'm currently inching towards Ultra-Universalism and for some that type of Universalism raises too many unresolved justice and/or disciplinary and/or humbling issues, while for me, either John 12:31-33 is true or it's not;  either He finished it, or it's to be continued. 

And yet, as someone who taught the Winchesterian form of Universalism for years, I know the arguments that are raised against a "death and glory" type of UR.  That type of reasoning from the Scriptures just isn't solid enough under my feet any more.  Perhaps a year or two down the line further and I'll see things entirely differently than I do right now.  It's still in the back of my mind that all of this is easily explained with Mark chapter 4, but trying to go there right now isn't fruitful enough to my understanding.  All of us are at different stages of growth, and perhaps given another 10 to 20 years we'll all be aghast at what we believed to be the method by which God was acheiving His promises right now.  He's a Journey.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2008, 06:35:59 AM »
Until it is Biblically established, as far as I am concerned (I only speak for myself), it is NOT ESTABLISHED, and isn't worthy to be addressed... something like "refuting" GHOSTS...  It doesn't exist until an existence (not theory) is actually established.

Hi willie,

I do disagree with your line of reasoning because it cannot be established that God exists just because the bible is around.

What the word says is rather ambiguous since ET believers take their perspective from the same scriptures, we dispute that way of thinking because we do not believe the scriptures mean what is said they say through the manner of intepretation used.

We have faith that the Bible is the word of God and therefore contemplate what it says.  From my point of view I could of remained in the mindset of ET by saying that I do not need to demonstrate a refutation of Universalism,  yet, I did just those things and that actually led me to greater truth.

Just think of all the ET believers that will not even contemplate universalism because they have been taught a way that must be held to at all costs and another way cannot be entertained for fear of losing their soul.

So to just say that something is unbiblical does not determine whether it is or isn't.

take care

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2008, 07:40:34 AM »
I've been trying to move sideways all night.

I want out of this timeline. :happy3:

True Believer

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2008, 09:05:26 AM »
Hi willieH,

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I REALLY... REALLY, do not mean to offend you new brother... but   :blahgreen: :lazy:  ...Just kidn!   :icon_jokercolor:  If you take offense at this response, ...then you do,  and there is nothing I can do other than to note that I mean NONE of this response as offensive to YOU... but to your WORDS... well, ...they speak (or dont speak) for themselves...

Willie, I'll be the first to admit that your heart-centered embrace of UR is spot on.  When it comes to mental doctrines, however, I ask that you beware of handed-down thinking dressed up as Christian theology and have more respect for those who are working on the intellectual aspects of Christian theology, for its says in Jeremiah that God will write his law on both our hearts and our minds.  In particular, I feel that you are regurgitating mundane axioms and handed down beliefs, and to slightly misquote your own words: "I do SINCERELY  :giveheart: wish you UNDERSTANDING," ...and suggest that maybe a hiatus from sci-fi mundane thinking would be helpful in gaining it..."

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When I was a young man (40+years ago -- old fart now!)... my sister had a boyfriend (maybe it was YOU in another "time line" :dunno:)... who figured to impress others extensively with his knowledge, but as it turned out,

...most of the people he spoke to, didn't pay much attention to him, ...for he lacked one thing in all he...
HOW to COMMUNICATE!  :sigh:

Forgive me bro, ...I'm just your run of the mill, uneducated (I did get to and thru, the 12th grade) DING-DONG musician... but ...sometimes I ain't speak right...

Concluding this response with this thought... SIMPLIFY... then you shall have the best chance to communicate to the most people...  :mwink:

You really don't know me well enough to make the kind of comparison implied here.  I am not here to impress people, I am here to share what I have learned and inspire people if they are so inclined.  The fact of the matter is that I have a passion for knowledge to begin with, and on top of that have been so inspired by the majesty of what God has planned for mankind that I have willingly devoted years of my life to a scientific/rational understanding of how salvation occurs.  None the less, I am here and ask your help simplifying my message, for the "run of the mill" people like yourself are the salt of the Earth and the strength of God's right arm in the establishment of His dominion. 

This is a critical issue, for there are hordes of PhDs and ThDs respectively in science and theology who receive full-time salaries and institutional support to perpetuate the destructive handed-down traditions of mankind, and there will be no way for people with intellectual gifts like myself to challenge these institutional forces unless there is an entire army of people has been raised up in the Spirit of Jesus Christ to say enough with these destructive traditions.

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However... continuing on...

To begin with you mention several things which Biblically speaking, are IMAGINARY (possibly due to "multiple STARGATE episode syndrome")... and in an attempt as a FINITE to gain INFINITE DIVINE perspective, which is (finitely impossible), your words, often trip and stumble over themselves...

If you will note in the post you quoted, I said that time-symmetric causation leads to an infinite regress into higher-dimensional spaces.  This is the exact opposite of the finite trying to gain an infinite perspective, for it is an explicit admission that a self-consistent system of logic scales from the finite to the infinite.  Because we are created in the image of God, we can understand this logic, but it is formally an admission of the transcendence of God, and as such, a formal surrender of the rational mind to the existence of a transcendent God.

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Trans-temporal Salvation[/color]... is an UNBIBLICAL topic... a coulda-woulda-shoulda kind of thing...  :sigh:

You are welcome to envision the History of Mankind to have been a scenario which encompassed mulitple possibilities and "timelines" but regardless,

The fact remains that the Scriptures DO promote PREDESTINATION (Rom 9:11 / Eph 2:10), and the DO promote a "that's the way it is" teaching, as GOD has noted (and He is ETERNALLY TRUTHFUL)... that He DECLARED the END, from the BEGINNING (Is 46:10-11)... which means there are NO... "coulda's... NO "woulda's... NO "shoulda's... and NO "Transa-temporala Salvationa's"   :mnah:

This is where we get to some really serious issues for the quoting of these passages in refutation of multiple timelines is both logically flawed and one of the worst ever cases of selectively quoting scripture to prove a belief of the mundane mind.  In regard to the second issue, I reference Joel 2:1-11 versus 12-32, Malachi 4:5-6, Revelation chapters 2 and 3, and Jeremiah 4:1-4 versus 5-31.  All of these prophecies are of an unambiguous if/else logic in which the Lord warns of an explicit bifurcation of destiny between scenarios in which people correct the error of their ways and/or turn their hearts to God, and scenarios in which they don't.  Moreover, the warnings of Joel and Malachi refer explicitly to the "Day of the Lord," and the warnings of Revelation to Laodicea arguably so.  And unless the Bible is deceiving humanity into believing they have a choice when they really don't, your idea of simple linear predestination makes a mockery of the most critical warnings of the entire Bible.  In regard to the logical error, I quote Steward of the Word, a person who has had direct prophetic revelation of this deeper reality:

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I notice a problem that people have, they think in limited understanding by leaning on their own understanding of how things should go. It makes sense right, God is in control, He knows every choice we are going to make therefore it was the only choice we were going to make. That is linear thinking that only an finite mind can understand. People think that we have no choice, that the path we took is only an illusion of choice because that was what we were going to do anyway.

Does it boggle people's mind to think that God thinks in quantum and God knows EVERY choice to EVERY situation He has presented regardless if that choice and situation ever came up? In otherwords, God has provision for left and right, up and down, inward, outward, and beyond choice we possibly could have made or will make and that it is not set in stone until we actually have made the choice? Does it boggle people's mind that with all those organic choices that have EVERY path possible, that God knows all things in order to guide our steps?

In short, the references to God's foreknowledge and the predestination implicit therein have no bearing at all on whether or not multiple timelines are valid or not for the simple reason God can have foreknowledge of the entire array of alternate destinies, and can preordain the possible outcomes for every possible set of choices that the whole of humanity might make.  The distinction between the two forms of predestination is, however, very significant.  In either case, God would be transcendent to time as you claim, but with simple linear predestination, there is no logic whatsoever for this transcendence to be anything more than Newtonian clockwork universe one dimension higher than the Newtonian clockwork at the core of scientific materialism.  By contrast, the holistic predestination of a densely populated array of alternate timelines is a level of transcendence so great that God can preordain whatever He wants while at the same time allowing humanity a great deal of free-will, a freedom by which the Bride made in His image could willingly heed God's call, and Glorify Him by willingly birthing the full Beauty and Majesty of what He preordaines.

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Which if TRUE, ...would mean that HE within HIS WORK, also CHANGES or fluxuates (Mal 3:6) which HE does NOT... 

This is your imagination.  To start, the changelessness of God does not in any way preclude God unchangeably committing to a mundane if/else scenario; to think that this is precluded is a very narrow way of thinking.  And given the explicit if/else prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord, it should be clear that an apocalypse of the heart can substitute for an apocalypse of the flesh with regard to the interpretation of Revelation and other "end-time" prophecies.  In addition, a God that partakes of an infinite number of space-time dimensions can not possibly change.  What changes is the speed with which we individually and collectively come into the fullness of what God ordained for us by our free-will choice to heed the call of God or fight against it.  Note also an infinitely transcendent God can embrace the changeable within the unchangeable, and in direct reflection of this Exodus 3:14 is equally translated "I am who I am" and "I am becoming who I am becoming."  By contrast, a god of simple linear predestination is a God of finite dimensionality.  Specifically, it is a false god of five spacetime dimensions that could be changed by forces of five or more dimensions.

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And your proposal further theorizes that WORD bears false witness in that it also floats upon that same sea of fluxuation... (if there are in fact MULTIPLE possibilities or timelines) as SCRIPTURE states

Willie, Jonah 3:4 says "On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."  This quote is from Young's literal translation.  It is an unconditional prophecy that did not come true from a mundane perspective.  Deuteronomy is clear that a prophecy that does not come true is the mark of false prophet.  You can not quote a general scriptural principle of a destructive unconditional prophecy being canceled by repentance because there is no direct scriptural support for any such principle, only the indirect support for such from the explicitly conditional prophecies, and from the canonization of the prophecy at hand.  What I propose honors the message of spontaneous grace being generated by an act of repentance, and it does so in a way that affirms the truthfulness of this prophecy via the logic of multiple timelines.  By contrast, the simple linear predestination that you affirm misses this crucial message and cannot in any way explain the failed prophecy.  And then you have the nerve of accusing me of theorizing that the Word bears false witness when in fact this is your sin not mine.

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JESUS CHRIST[/b][/i][/color] is the SAME, yesterday today and for ever (Heb 13:8)

Saying in essence, that what IS WRITTEN, in fact... fluxuates and is NOT TRUTHFUL, rather is just one of MYRIADS of possible outcomes which GOD chose to be so in this "timeline"...  :thumbdown:

YOU propose in THEORY:  Adam "could've" obeyed... but,
SCRIPTURE SAYS:   HE DID NOT... (Gen 3:6)

The proposal that "he could've obeyed" is FICTIONAL and CONTRARY to that which is stated in GOD's WORD... which DOES NOT CHANGE!

The TRUTH ...IS...  He DID NOT OBEY... the LIE ...IS... that He "could've"...

First, the literal translation is "Jesus Christ yesterday and to-day the same, and to the ages," and since "ages" does not mean forever, you are misquoting the Bible.  Second, since this verse says ages, not ages of the ages, we have no particular reason to apply it to anything except mundane time in which case the quote is totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.  Third, please notice in my second post that I said that one of the reasons I accepted the logic of alternate timelines was because of Philip K Dick's perception that the entire process of sideways-in-time movement was anchored in the cross, something that honors the Lordship of Jesus in the deepest of ways.

For certain, the infinite transcendence of the Father precludes any form of change, but to believe that Jesus (the Son) or the Bible (the Word) must be exactly the same on an entirely different version of history is extremely presumptuous.  Indeed, what you are trying to do is make the words of the Bible be a constraint on the sovereignty of the Father to manage each timeline in the way He sees fit.  This is totally backwards, for the purpose of the Bible is to be a testimony to the sovereignty of God, not a constraint thereon.

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You endeavor to replace the statements made by the Almighty with contrived theories which have no basis in reality... nor can be proven to be so... and are found rubbing shoulders, in the company of EVOLUTION, and its "POSSIBILITIES"...

This is again your imagination.  In actuality, the logic of time-symmetric causation affirms intelligent-design within the context of old-Earth creationism, and affirms young-Earth creationism as a deeper reality outside the context of linear-time.  In regard to Darwinian evolution, it is the ideological equivalent of a hydrogen bomb.

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The proposal that something (anything) COULD HAVE happened as opposed to what ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ...is IMAGINARY, ...not REALITY...

REALITY IS... what actually TOOK PLACE!   :dontknow:  NOT what "could've" taken place...

Your focus on concrete REALITY is the foolishness of the mundane mind pretending to be wisdom.  Are you going to go so far as to deny the spirit realm?  Or in modern scientific terms, deny the reality of "complex- numbered reality?"  Wake up, you are trying to deny the wisdom of the ages.

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GOD has PURPOSED that REVELATION be withheld... and that is to let MAN, in his PRIDE, show himSELF... that he... IN THAT PRIDE... will conjure up IMAGINARY and FALSE EXPLANATIONS for that which he (as a veiled finite) has NO VALID EXPLANATION... IMAGINATION, ...in action...

And before you start on about the finiteness of man as an excuse for the logic of God being veiled, please note that John 14:26 and 16:12-15 are explicit about the Holy Spirit unveiling the secrets of God and revealing all things.  I might not have all the details right, but Origen, Philip K Dick, Steward of the Word, Joyful1, Martin, and myself have all received inspiration of some sort or another along these lines.  Please be open to it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 06:37:37 PM by True Believer »

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2008, 09:15:31 AM »
Origen believes that man is a rational being. He believed that man has a freedom of will, that is, the freedom to make choices in life  choosing between good and evil, right and wrong, whether knowledgable of the decisions consequence or not. He believed that this is essential in order to have a real relationship with God which is not forced but organic in nature. He saw the wicked abundant who died in their wickedness, and at the same time he believed in Universal Salvation, and Universal Reconciliation. His conclusion of the matter is aionios kolasis for the wicked is that they live the same life over and over and over until we have taken the path of humility and repentance, essentially being presented repeatedly the choice between path of destruction and the path of Life until they had chosen the path of Life. He made it clear not to confuse it with Eastern Reincarnation and Greek Soul migration (Greek version of reincarnation) which he absolutely rejected.  Origen said concerning this, "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1:4653 [24])."

The philosophy: To understand the ontological nature of why Trans-Temporal Redemption (as coined by True Believer) is possible, you actually need to address an abundance of issues which include the ontological nature of God (love, justice, integrity, honor, holiness, omni-everything, Creator, etc.), the soteriology of a Universal Salvation (all mankind saved), the ontological nature of man (the rational mind, the freedom of will, capability intellect, encompassing emotion, the instinct etc.),  the problem of evil, etc.

Essentially, Origen's, True Beliver's, and myself propose a dynamic theory of creation which believes in the Absolute Sovereignty of God, Universal Salvation of all mankind, and at the same time retaining the integrity of a rational/emotional man able to make decisions (free-will). This dynamic view is spherical (Origen and my view), multi-layered (True Believer's view) or both, concerning creation. It is like a three-dimensional object not limited to points but still beginning and ending with God (this is in comparison to the static linear view in which life is symmetrically myopic pre-scripted and pre-planned from point a to point b). The dynamic idea creation is fashioned in such a way that it remains organic, causal, and free, and at the same time result in the one conclusion God had pre-destined for all mankind. An impossibility for man to conceive or comprehend to make work, but possible for God. 

Essentially, if one believes that man is rational and emotional creature, then they have the ability to make rational and emotional choices in life. If a man has choice, then those choices have consequences. If choices have consequences, then how do you solve the dilemma of negative consequence without destroying the integrity of creation and having a sincere and wholesome choice resulting in a positive consequence.

The science: Origen did not have scientific theories of how time and space worked, he had the dilemma and philosophy to solve the dilemma while staying within the confines of Biblical Christianity. The philosophy had no scientific support until the observations of Isaac Newton, Niels Bohr, Max Plank, Albert Einstein and the like. Quantum Mechanics and various other theories based on observations, hypothesis, and math, can prove a space/time continuum and the possibility of an immunity to cause and effect outside space/time  especially if there are more than 4 dimensions to the universe, which mathematically there are at least 10 to infinite dimensions.

The idea of re-living the same life over and over faced with the same dilemma's but choosing differently becomes possible. The idea of multiple time-lines in which the same life finally achieves a pre-destined goal end becomes possible. Scientific support to a philosophical answer to a dilemma while maintaining biblical and scriptural accuracy, becomes possible.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:18:34 AM by SOtW »

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2008, 09:38:41 AM »
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You really don't know me well enough to make the kind of comparison implied here.  I am not here to impress people, I am here to share what I have learned and inspire people if they are so inclined.  The fact of the matter is that I have a passion for knowledge to begin with, and on top of that have been so inspired by the majesty of what God has planned for mankind that I have willingly devoted years of my life to a scientific/rational understanding of how salvation occurs.  None the less, I am here and ask your help simplifying my message, for the "run of the mill" people like yourself are the salt of the Earth and the strength of God's right arm in the establishment of His dominion.

This is a critical issue, for there are hordes of PhDs and ThDs respectively in science and theology who receive full-time salaries and institutional support to perpetuate the destructive handed-down traditions of mankind, and there will be no way for people with intellectual gifts like myself to challenge these institutional forces unless there is an entire army of people has been raised up in the Spirit of Jesus Christ to say enough with these destructive traditions.

Amen!  :cloud9: I have been saying this for years and finally the pendulum has swung. Until recently, there has not been many intellectual personalities here in Tentmaker Forums and as a result there has been a constant battle to establish that the Gift of Knowledge, Gift of Wisdom, and the Ministry Giftings are actual Spiritual giftings of God; that there are those who are rational and intellectual and abiding by the Spirit who are just as essential in the Body of Christ as those who are not.  From what I observed, SeekerSA, Paul Hazelwood, martincisneros, Nathan (a new comer), and you bring a balance to what sometimes can be an overly emotional forum.

The amazing part I find, is that the rational ones have the easiest time to agree to disagree, discuss, debate and argue doctrine without become snared by personal differences and making judgments against one another. It is refreshing.

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I'm guessing that it had little overall impact on the discussion of UR.  Is this true? 

Yes, and No. There are people here like Davo, Sarah, Joyful, and others who know I talked about this a lot in the past. Most of all my posts concerning this are now deleted or put into a folder that will never see light of day.

Over the last few years, there were a few members (some self-declared mystics) who made it their mandate to make the perception of 'knowledge' the source of evil, asking for proof meant you had little faith, questioning the logic and reasonings of someone's belief meant you were unloving and cold, and that emotionalism is somehow in fact a synonym for Godly spiritualism. As a result, I built up many walls to protect myself and developing (redeveloping in some cases) some insecurities and short-tempered responses to those who would reject me because I knew what I was talking about philosophically, scripturally, rationally and theologically. I do not believe in mysticism, I believe the mystery of God is revealed to any who ask for wisdom and knowledge concerning it and those who have the knowledge are called to teach it.

Be forewarned most of these people did not leave the forum, so you will be battling a negative stigma which should never have been there in the first place, but it is here none the less. I also admit due to my defenses my reactions to some of those members did not help the situation. You will be battling a familiar spirit as a result if these outbursts. That is, people will assume you are me and react to you as if you were me, thinking they will get the same result in which they can accuse you of wrong doing should you react as I did in some of these cases. Already, you have already had to suffer through an assumption of your motivation, just because you are learned.

In any case, unlike the past, there are now some very rational individuals here who can support or discuss with a civil attitude, intellectual discussions without resorting to character defamation and ad hominem attacks and other fallacy win their 'argument' for the sake of keeping their opinions.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 11:04:02 AM by SOtW »

True Believer

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2008, 09:59:23 AM »
Steward, Martin,

I do not believe there is any substantial difference between multiple timelines and multiple universes.  In either case we are dealing with the multiplicity of "complex-numbered reality."  I sort of affirm the sphericity of reality at each finite level of dimensionality as seen by Origen and Steward, albeit of a Mobius nature with God not at the "North Pole," but transcendent to the "Mobius sphere."

What I add that is new is the idea of a regress into infinite dimensional spaces (i.e. ontological layering), such that the Father is infinitely transcendent.  Mainstream science thinks that reality can be modeled with 10 or 11 dimensions, but this is not true.  When one applies quantum wave/particle duality to the definition of "entropy," it becomes obvious that there is an infinite number of dimensions.

I am really grateful to be here,  :cloud9: thank you both (and joyful1) for your support, and am glad to hear the pendulum is swinging in regard to intellectual work.  I'm open to deep scriptural discussion to make sure that we stay on track, and feel that our combined expertise will be much greater than the sum of the parts.  My next major post will be an indirect proof of time-symmetric causation via the message of a transcendent cosmic destiny hidden in the Bible.

P.S.

SeekerSA, Don't feel too bad about your 21 kids on all the other timelines.  My wife and both relied on hormonal contraceptives before we met during our age of ignorance.  It is a widespread deception that the pill is not properly labeled a contraceptive/abortifacient.  Thank God, God is sufficiently transcendent to straighten this mess out.

Offline studier

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2008, 10:53:47 AM »
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To be clear, I hold that "trans-temporal redemption" has aspects which make it a valid possibility concerning aionios kolasis. I hold my reservations because of the complex nature of quantum reality.

I first learned about time-symmetric causation when studying quantum reality and only later saw the degree to which it is supported by the Bible.  So I'm really interested in hearing the nature of your reservations to see if there is some way we can deepen or clarify the multilayered reality that we both see in our own way.  Also, when you say "complex" do you mean complicated or complex numbered?  Maybe you can comment about this in the other thread.

Let me rephrase.

My reservations are due to the some very unnecessary complicated solutions which can be solved by simple solution such as the Resurrection of the dead, both the righteous (in Christ) and the wicked as a direct result of the life, death and resurrection of the Son of God. It is like the Gap theory is an unnecessary doctrinal theory to explain the age of the earth being billions of years old, but at the same time created only 6000 years ago and at the same time justify the Lucifer mythos.

The biggest reason for my reservation is the pivotal role that Jesus Christ holds in TTR, it almost nullifies the purpose of His incarnation if perfection is achieved by free-will choice over the span of multiple manifestations of the same lifetime through multiple universe/timelines. Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.

In a nutshell however, I hold it as a possible option for the wicked in their resurrection to experience a Trans-Temporal Redemption, while the righteous are reign infinitely transcendent with the Father and the Son.

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I sort of affirm the sphericity of reality at each finite level of dimensionality as seen by Origen and Steward, albeit of a Mobius nature with God not at the "North Pole," but transcendent to the "Mobius sphere."

That is what I actually believe also. I believe in a form of typology. That Scripture isn't actually a history book, but something a large parable concerning present reality. In otherwords, everything is 'NOW' to a transcendent God concerning all of creation and it's complexity. Therefore everything in Scripture is actually talking about a 'NOW' which a transcendent God would describe.

Genesis 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of
the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.

Many theologians say this happened in the past, I have always said this is a present actualization all creation. Spiritually the earth is still presently without form and void, and darkness is upon the face of the deep. A transcendent God still moves over the face of the waters.

Apply this to Trans-Temporal Redemption. The reason it is without form and is still void, is because men face choices constantly that alter everything in a constant cause and effect, God is constantly interceding and guiding men trans-temporally to face these choices again and again altering everything through constant cause and effect. Like a Potter and His clay, he spins and spins the wheel until the clay has been molded to the right shape, size and proportion and then it is put through the Fire... ...let there be Light.

Genesis 1:3-4
And God said, "Let there be light" and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

There is so much that could be said...

On a side note. If everything is "Now" to God, there is no past or future, only present since He is transcendent. A trick question... ...How many days did it actually take God to create everything? It actually took only one day (a day/night) and that same day is described seven times. Perhaps this is the ultimate realization of Trans-Temporal Redemption.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 11:02:34 AM by SOtW »

Offline Molly

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2008, 12:24:06 PM »
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Now I understand that the answer is perfection could not be attained if it had not been for the pivotal placement of Jesus Christ which reconciled mankind to God allowing the Father's infinite grace to give us the opportunity and the ability to make these undetermined amount of choices through an undetermined amount of realities to finally make the right choice and recognize God through our own volition.


Could somebody please explain to me how this works, practically speaking?  Do you mean that while I make choice A, my doppelgangers are simultaneously making choice B, C, D, and E in multiple universes?

And, then what?  The best choice wins?  Do we (I and my doppelgangers) all die at the same time?  Are we all resurrected at the same time?  Or just the best one resurrected?  Or what?

I need practical info here.


And, if this were true, with all these chances, why is Paul begging people to be reconciled to God?



2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


joyful1

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2008, 01:21:19 PM »
No one here wants to be deceived.

No one wants to stumble spiritually because of the potential idol of intelligence or education.

No one wants to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine" that comes around.

A few want to explore the subject further because of the hope that it offers.

If the true doctrine of Christ can be more fully explained by this, specifically the way in which God will save all men, then I'd like to try to understand this.

A simpler explanation framed by scripture is essential. Is that possible?  :icon_flower:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Trans-Temporal Redemption a New Approach to Biblical Universalism
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2008, 01:52:37 PM »
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Do we (I and my doppelgangers) all die at the same time?
Most likely not. The Molly of our reality was safely typing a message at home while another Molly got killed by a truck while crossing the street. And thereby forcing the truckdriver overthinking the fragility of life. The atheist trucker now reads the Bible at the truckstops instead of hiring some entertainment.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...