Author Topic: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation  (Read 7102 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9086
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« on: October 17, 2009, 05:41:58 AM »
There used to be an old song I knew when I was a kid, "If Jesus Came to Your House".  It talked about would there be any evidence of being saved/a Christian.  I've been thinking lately - if someone came to TM that didn't know Jesus, would there be the things here that would be obvious enough to introduce them to Him?  Would they see Jesus, would they actually be able to readily find and hear the message of how they can come into relationship with Him, i.e., "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved";  "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"?  And again, "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved. How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?"

With so many people going the way of New Age, Gnosticism, and just plain old error away from the scripture, I am very happy to have found this post from Martin, which is quoting Gary Amirault, owner of TM.  I've included the following excerpt for all our consideration, and hopefully, edification.

"[The aforementioned forms of Universalism] is NOT the universalism of Tentmaker Ministries, or true Christian universalism. We have nothing to do with the various forms of the New Age Movement. There is only one Name under heaven by which one must be saved as far as Gary Amirault and Tentmaker Ministries goes -- that name is Jesus the Christ (English), Yeshua Ha Machiach (Hebrew), Iesus Christos (Greek). There are no "ascended masters" as far as we are concerned. Everything we believe centers around the Father of Creation, His Son Whom the Father sent to redeem the world and His Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus sent to "lead us into all truth."

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently "saved."[/b] At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are "saved" at this time. Salvation, which is much more than life after death, comes only through Jesus. Salvation, in the Hebrew sense (not in the traditional Evangelical sense) means to make whole, to heal, to restore, to deliver. Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

May we always share the truth in love.  God IS love.  James.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 06:00:09 AM by jabcat »

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3453
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 02:59:54 AM »
There used to be an old song I knew when I was a kid, "If Jesus Came to Your House".  It talked about would there be any evidence of being saved/a Christian.  I've been thinking lately - if someone came to TM that didn't know Jesus, would there be the things here that would be obvious enough to introduce them to Him?  Would they see Jesus, would they actually be able to readily find and hear the message of how they can come into relationship with Him, i.e., "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved";  "believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"?  And again, "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved. How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?"

With so many people going the way of New Age, Gnosticism, and just plain old error away from the scripture, I am very happy to have found this post from Martin, which is quoting Gary Amirault, owner of TM.  I've included the following excerpt for all our consideration, and hopefully, edification.

"[The aforementioned forms of Universalism] is NOT the universalism of Tentmaker Ministries, or true Christian universalism. We have nothing to do with the various forms of the New Age Movement. There is only one Name under heaven by which one must be saved as far as Gary Amirault and Tentmaker Ministries goes -- that name is Jesus the Christ (English), Yeshua Ha Machiach (Hebrew), Iesus Christos (Greek). There are no "ascended masters" as far as we are concerned. Everything we believe centers around the Father of Creation, His Son Whom the Father sent to redeem the world and His Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus sent to "lead us into all truth."

While we, at Tentmaker Ministries are glad Carlton Pearson has abandoned the traditional belief that most people are going to endlessly burn in Hell, we do not hold to some key positions which seem to come from Carlton Pearson's teachings. We do NOT believe all mankind is presently "saved."[/b] At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop He who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)

We do not believe members of other religions are "saved" at this time. Salvation, which is much more than life after death, comes only through Jesus. Salvation, in the Hebrew sense (not in the traditional Evangelical sense) means to make whole, to heal, to restore, to deliver. Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us. We should be the salt of the earth, we should be its light. If God wanted to save the entire planet today, He easily could. But He has a plan. In that plan, salvation is extended to people in an order, that order extends beyond our present age. We also believe in evangelism. People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake. We also believe that as one sows, so shall they reap. There is a liberality among those who teach the Doctrine of Inclusion which violates a whole host of Scriptures dealing with restraining the body with its lusts. Some teach there is no more such thing as sin. We believe in Holiness, not necessarily the Holiness Pentecostal form of heavy legalism, but we believe God holds us accountable to living a moral and orderly life." - Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries

May we always share the truth in love.  God IS love.  James.

Fantastic. Thank you for posting that.  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Already reconciled by his death while enemies, but SAVED by his LIFE when believing.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 02:51:42 PM »
Hi LD2,

I think works still count.....

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

=> works are of no use then there is no need to test them...

Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 03:01:01 PM »
Matthew 25:32-43  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:  36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:  43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

I read nothing spiritual there. I only read about helping the misfortuned in society.
Note that I'm not saying believing in Jesus is not needed. I'm saying that works are also judged.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Hischosen

  • Guest
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 03:08:00 PM »
Yes works is judged. No question.
I want you to know that all books in the new testament I place in order of who they where designed for when written. I use them all but there not all for me as a Gentile. Like Matt. Mark. Luke. John ,,,I am a follower of Paul and his good news.

Lee Damboise II

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 03:18:42 PM »
LD2,

Yes I know that according to many Revelation taken place at in 70AD (Jerusalem destoyed)
But I really doubt that means Revelation is just for Jews. And Revelation is an OT thing for works.
I think not. For example it's still not ok to worship the devil. So the 10 commandments still stand.
What we call New Testament actually means New Convenant.
When exactly that Convenant started?
a] In 70AD?
b] When Jesus said "It's done"?
c] Or perhaps at resurrection?
For me it starts b or c (which one is not important now)

So that would mean Revelation took place during New Convenant times.
And that automaticly means it's a new Convenant thing.
I simply assume God stopped "doing Old Convenant thing" after the great sacrifice of His own Son.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 07:43:57 PM »
"A word not coupled with action will never be greater than a thought."

peacemaker

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3453
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 10:50:12 PM »
Yes works is judged. No question.
I want you to know that all books in the new testament I place in order of who they where designed for when written. I use them all but there not all for me as a Gentile. Like Matt. Mark. Luke. John ,,,I am a follower of Paul and his good news.

Lee Damboise II

Paul's good news reads like this (and I can show you very many scriptures from his own writing to verify this): We are delivered from the letter of the Law, but not delivered from the righteousness OF the Law which is love. In fact, we are delivered FROM evil works by being enabled to do the things which are in the law by nature, not by letter, due to the recieving of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is indeed for both Jew and Gentile, and it is by that Spirit that we become "a law unto ourselves" showing that God's law is written in our hearts by circumcision of the heart by the Spirit (Romans 2), not by the letter.

This all revolves around salvation FROM sin, not salvation IN sin.



Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3453
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 10:54:42 PM »
OK, I am one of those that lean toward the thought that there is no more sin, because I truly believe that breaking the law is sin and I am under no form of Jewish Law.

The law is not sin. The power of the law is sin. Paul said that the Law is good and holy, but that the power of the Law is sin, because the Law is not Spirit, and therefore the it is unable to deliver one from sin. The function of the law therefore is to reveal sin, not to save from it. Being delivered from sin means that the Law has done it's purpose, and Christ's purpose is to guide us in all righteousness by getting rid of sin.

Quote
So, If I am not under law of any of the 640 Jewish rules, How do I sin.

You seem to be under the impression that the Law of Moses is the ONLY law. Where do you get that?

Galatians 6
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5for each one should carry his own load.


Sin is lawlessness, so without the law of Moses, you can sin the same way that the Gentiles were able to sin even though they were not under those 640 Jewish rules: by not abiding by the Righteousness OF the Law which is Love, by not abiding by the "law of liberty" (from sin) which is in Christ.



« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 11:00:59 PM by Seth »

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9086
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 01:47:30 AM »
I believe the knowledge of Jesus as the Son of God and the sacrifice for our sins (at least, some fundamental understanding of Him as being the Savior - not a highly developed belief system - but at least knowing Who to call on); when coupled with the faith given by God that leads to belief and repentance, that it's then that love is provided and nurtured, by the Holy Spirit, in our hearts.  By grace we are saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves.  I believe that can incorporate and reconcile the whole of the scriptures that speak of salvation.

I wanted to post a follow-up note to my original post.  No one at TM is told what to believe, and dissent, to a reasonable point is allowed - as long as it fits within the parameters of the Forum Guidelines.  One of the expectations is - and there are obviously some judgment calls by the mods involved - that no [extended] bodies of teaching can directly contradict Gary's.   Opinions/understandings, expressed as such, are generally allowed and can be good for discussion and learning.    I did want to get Gary's beliefs and stance right out in the open, and I personally very much agree with him.   Again personally, my comments (and occasionally my moderation) will often take that into account.

"Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"


James.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 02:18:14 AM by jabcat »

Gab

  • Guest
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 02:39:09 AM »
I wanted to post a follow-up note to my original post.  No one at TM is told what to believe, and dissent, to a reasonable point is allowed - as long as it fits within the parameters of the Forum Guidelines.  One of the expectations is - and there are obviously some judgment calls by the mods involved - that no [extended] bodies of teaching can directly contradict Gary's.   Opinions/understandings, expressed as such, are generally allowed and can be good for discussion and learning.    I did want to get Gary's beliefs and stance right out in the open, and I personally very much agree with him.   Again personally, my comments (and occasionally my moderation) will often take that into account.

Just wanted to confirm whether or not this is telling me in a nice manner to cut it out - I recognize that a good portion of what I believe does tend to be contrary to what Gary believes and preaches, and it's neither my intention nor my desire to rock the boat, so to speak.

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 05:49:02 AM »
I wanted to post a follow-up note to my original post.  No one at TM is told what to believe, and dissent, to a reasonable point is allowed - as long as it fits within the parameters of the Forum Guidelines.  One of the expectations is - and there are obviously some judgment calls by the mods involved - that no [extended] bodies of teaching can directly contradict Gary's.   Opinions/understandings, expressed as such, are generally allowed and can be good for discussion and learning.    I did want to get Gary's beliefs and stance right out in the open, and I personally very much agree with him.   Again personally, my comments (and occasionally my moderation) will often take that into account.

Just wanted to confirm whether or not this is telling me in a nice manner to cut it out - I recognize that a good portion of what I believe does tend to be contrary to what Gary believes and preaches, and it's neither my intention nor my desire to rock the boat, so to speak.

I doubt this is intended towards you, Gab. You and I seem to have a lot of similar thoughts, and I've never been told to shut up, so I don't think you will be either.  :happy3:

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9086
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 06:24:15 AM »
Gab, you've always presented in the manner of opinion, as you see it/understand it, etc.  That's important.  You're also not posting page after page of "teaching" from an "expert, know-it-all, cram it down your throat" POV.

I do personally feel this is a crucial topic within the body, and it grieves me that we're often not presenting unbelievers with an understanding of a need to actively believe and call upon the Lord for salvation (as He draws and gives the faith).

But again, folks aren't told here what they have to believe.  There's much variety of opinion, on many things, and most of it I personally just sort of leave it alone and let folks work it out, as long as it's within guidelines.  I've just felt this is one too important to leave alone, as well as, Gary has some pretty clear opinions on it.

And no, TimB, I don't think you've ever "crossed any lines" as far as forum guidelines are concerned.  :bigGrin:

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 08:16:50 AM »
Quote from: Gab
To me, whether one believes that Jesus is the Son of God, born from a virgin, and so forth, is one thing; whether one believes that love is all, and that without love one is nothing, is another.  The former, as I see it, is a factual matter which may be cleared up simply through the adequate transmission of knowledge.  On the other hand, the latter is a fundamental matter of one's very being, which requires a fundamental transformation in one's life itself if one does not believe it to be true.

It's interesting to note that unconditional love is very rarely seen.  When we do see it we take note, a mother for her child, a man for his wife.  If we see such a thing between strangers, we call the one offering it a hero.  But, most love of the human variety is conditional.  We tend to love for better, for richer, in health.  Outside of some well grounded biological imperatives, only God can make such love happen.  And, another interesting thing is you will never know how well you love until it is put to the test.  It's easy to speak of love but living it is another thing altogether.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9086
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 08:34:50 AM »
I was looking at the love that is used as showing one knows God.  It's agape, as you note, Mol, rather than the other kinds of love in the Greek - friendship, affection, passion, etc. - which God has provided as part of the human condition.  But I agree, there is that deeper, truly supernatural love, which I believe occurs as God fills believers with His Spirit and enables one to follow Him. 

For whatever it means, when Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him, 3 times Jesus asked if Peter "agape" loved Him, and 3 times Peter answered that he "philo" (was fond) of Him.  Peter was yet to be converted.  It would be interesting to know if any later references indicated Peter had agape love.  If I have any, I need more of it every day.  Step by step....
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 08:40:02 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13057
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 08:39:36 AM »
Gab, you've always presented in the manner of opinion, as you see it/understand it, etc.  That's important.  You're also not posting page after page of "teaching" from an "expert, know-it-all, cram it down your throat" POV.
.......
And no, TimB, I don't think you've ever "crossed any lines" as far as forum guidelines are concerned.  :bigGrin:

I'm a follower of the Gab-theory and always am looking for falling TimBerrrrrr!  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9086
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 08:42:40 AM »
Yes, even though I SOMETIMES understand SOME things differently than Gab, the attitude and presentation is very good.  Hey, none of us know it all - yet.  :bigGrin:

TimBerrrr, eh?  :laughing7:

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8431
  • Gender: Female
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 05:33:34 PM »
Gab, you've always presented in the manner of opinion, as you see it/understand it, etc.  That's important.  You're also not posting page after page of "teaching" from an "expert, know-it-all, cram it down your throat" POV.
.......
And no, TimB, I don't think you've ever "crossed any lines" as far as forum guidelines are concerned.  :bigGrin:

I'm a follower of the Gab-theory and always am looking for falling TimBerrrrrr!  :laughing7:

 :cloud9:  :grin: :laughing7:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3453
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 07:37:19 PM »
Here is the Concordant Literal Version in case you are more interested, as I know it is the only translation some accept:

Galatians 6
1 Brethren, if a man should be precipitated, also, in some offense, you, who are spiritual, be attuning such a one, in a spirit of meekness, noting yourself, that you, also, may not be tried.
2 Bear one another's burdens, and thus fill up the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone is supposing himself to be anything, being nothing, he is imposing on himself.
4 Now let each one be testing his own work, and then he shall be having his boast for himself alone, and not for another,
5 for each one shall be bearing his own load.

Gab

  • Guest
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 06:14:34 AM »
Gab, you've always presented in the manner of opinion, as you see it/understand it, etc.  That's important.  You're also not posting page after page of "teaching" from an "expert, know-it-all, cram it down your throat" POV.

OK, thanks - at first glance your post seemed vaguely directed at me given my previous post in this thread, so I just wanted to make sure. :smile:

Offline reFORMer

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1943
  • Gender: Male
  • Psalm 133
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 08:36:15 AM »
Very good to see this clarified.  It is very agreeable to me.  Sometimes it gets very lonely.  Just ask Elijah.

The Ten Commandments or Ten Words are different than the rest of the Torah in that they were spoken by God in the hearing of all the people.  It is interesting to consider about 2 million persons at the base of the mountain falling back about, what, 500 feet when they hear the trumpets, thunder and Voice of God, coming back to another Word, falling back again, and so on.  Add it up: 10 times multiplied by 2 million (= 110) times 500 feet (= 512) divided by 5,280 feet (the amount in a mile) = 946,969,697 miles times 2 (because they they returned 500 feet each time) = 1,893,939,394 miles was how far they traveled, shaken like reeds in the wind and waves.  Yet elsewhere God speaks of, "...the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb...And ye came near and stood[/b] under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness (vs.11)...And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire..." (Deuteronomy 4:9-12) "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone." (vs.13) (Something like this I learned from a woman who lives in Israel, though I don't remember her name. Very comforting to know what it means to stand, specially when I remember...what it meant to be me back then.)

I believe in all of Scripture for all of life.  It just needs to be properly understood.  You can burn a Bible; but, you cannot destroy God.  There is Life and there is letter.  We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Among other things, I believe the words of Scripture to be a sort of software for my consciousness that when sufficiently impressed into the hardware of my brain I become a conduit of the Divine nature, both experiencing God and by the means of God, as well as becoming a demonstrator of God.  But this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and sometimes He uses Scripture and sometimes He works however He will to bring us into the image and likeness of God and that is:  "...the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 09:44:25 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8431
  • Gender: Female
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 03:54:09 PM »
 :cloud9: Amen, ReFORMer.......... :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline marie glen

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1334
  • Gender: Female
  • HiS perfect intent? Besides paradise & perfection?
    • Inner Monastery on Blogspot
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2010, 02:13:11 AM »
James basically wrote, "you can see my faith by my works" (good deeds, good changes in the life and self).

Jesus made it clear that "the law" great as it is, isn't good enough.. it's not enough to not murder, but don't hate.. not enough to not commit adultery, don't look at one not married to, as tho you were.. etc.

Which goes a long way to explaining what Paul meant (in Galatians) when he wrote that "the law" was a tutor (babysittter) until one comes of age/believes in Jesus. #One (the law) is outward observance and reminding one'self "I will not murder" etc.

But #Two, is the Living God living BiG within us, and Love, which is God, works no evil, does no harm, and is faithful to God. I've long figured we have one commandment (within which all the others are summed up) and that commandment is to love God with all my being, mind, life, etc.. and if I do that, I will be FiLLed with Him and will most assuredly love my fellow person and love does no wrong, does not defraud, murder, cheat.. and is faithful to God.

#Two has PoWeR to both save, and transform. Many become stalled, by mixing #One with #Two (law with Grace-which is grace within) - a little leaven leavens the whole lump, robs the gospel of its PoWeR. If we mix law with grace in our message to the not yet saved, they cannot hear us. It is not the gospel. So lacks power. Jesus said, "there is none good, not one, but only the Father." There is only one source of goodness. It is through drawing close to the Father that one believes, is saved and continues to be transformed. Observing any outward rules other than closeness with God implies there is some source of goodness originating within our selves, and is why in Hebrews Paul called those not believing the simple gospel were being disobedient. (And prideful?) "The fruit of the Spirit" close union with God "is love, joy, patience, temperance,"etc "against such there is no law." Or, for such there is not law as necessary (to remind one'self "I will not cheat, rob, kill".

Does this mean we run around cheating, robbing, killing? or willfully breaking one of the ten commandments? of course not. I can't help thinking that much of the law vs grace debate is a case of simply not hearing one another.. :Sparkletooth: 
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9086
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2010, 02:57:57 AM »
Good word!   :thumbsup:

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4443
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: TM's Beliefs Regarding Universal Salvation
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 06:41:30 AM »
Back to the original post in this thread..... I really don't see where what TM believes is posted in any cohesive, succinct way. That may be because I havent stumbled across it yet, but, I read all these posts because the lead in to the thread was about what TM believes and I saw Jabcats post about what Gary teaches. I would like that, or maybe a "we believe" thing- nothing to panoramic or specific- maybe just hitting the high points. If it exists maybe someone could steer me to it. There are some good posts in this thread about law and grace and works and faith etc., but it looks to me like the original thread has been high-jacked :hijacked:

I say all this within the distinct(in my mind)paradigm of my own opinion, as well as I am able, at this stage of my spiritual development  :Peace:

This is my "we believe" :o) Of course, there is no obligation to read it , but anyone who wants to know where I am coming from, the basics of where I currently stand are below. Its not meant to be a teaching, it is meant to reveal what I believe. I wonder if TM has something like this, or if it would be considered not worthwhile.


We believe that the Scriptures, as collected in the Bible are the inspired Logos of God, "All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction and edification", containing the broad strokes of the whole plan of God.

We believe that the Holy Spirit teaches the revelation of God through the Scriptures, "Comparing spiritual words with spiritual thoughts"(1 Corinthians chapter two) in order to open up "mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world". Mysteries hidden from the wise and revealed unto babes, meaning those who can admit they don't know everything and are excited to find more truth.

We believe that faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God is the key that opens the door to all of God's plan for mankind and the universe from the beginning, through the administration of the ages -and into eternity.

We believe that God judges men according to the secrets of their hearts, their conscience either accusing them or accusing them on the Day(which is already dawned, and will be at full noon when we awaken before the judgment seat) and that no man may judge another regarding eternal destiny.(Romans chapters one and two; Matthew 7:21;22;)

  We believe that the ages are expressions of a wisdom "hidden from the foundation of the world" and still "seen through a glass darkly". We have not been given all the details but the scriptures clearly state that there will be a "summing up of all things in Christ"(Ephesians 1:9-10), a "period of the restitution of all things" that will occur after the second coming (Acts 3:19 ); and a reconciliation of all things to the Father(Col 1:16-21) wherein "God will become all in all"(1 Cor 15:23-28; Romans 11:32-36). This is His plan, according to His "kind intention"(eudokia), who works "all things according to the counsel of His will". It is the "mystery of the gospel(euaggelion-kind proclamation, good news)", and a plan foreordained before the foundation of the world to our glory, who believe now. Disciples/believers/children of God will participate in the period of the restoration of all things in the ages to come.(Ephesians 1:9-10; Eph.2:8; Eph 4; Romans 8; Acts 3)

We believe the Word of God discerns the works of men and that speaking the truth in love we may reprove the works of darkness and encourage all to walk in the light and to do good deeds, out of a broken and a contrite heart(humility and pure motivation). "I AM HE that tries the reigns and the hearts".

We believe that the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, is sufficient for the reconciliation of all things in heaven and on earth, and that this isthe good news and the plan of God as it progresses thru the ages. It is the "good news" of "an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the gathering together into one(apokastasis) of all things in Christ".(Ephesian 1:9-11; Colossians 1:16-2; Romans 11:32-36; Revelation 5:13)

We believe in the judgment of God, the punishment of the wicked and the testing of the righteous as manifestations of the fire of God, consuming every adversary until every enemy has become a footstool for Christ's feet, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father(Romans chapter 10, Ephesians 2:8; Phillipians 2:10; 1 Cor chapter 15:28; Rev 5:13), for "from Him and through Him and to Him are all things".

We believe that at the end of the aions/ages/times "all things" meaning every being ever created will have bowed the knee to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and His reign of sacrificial love(No greater love has a man than this.....) and God will be "all in all"; pas en pas(Grk); everything in everyone(Romans11:32-36; Ephesians 1:9-11; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 8:17-30; 1Corinthians 15:23-28)

We believe that a repentant heart and faith in Jesus Christ alone is sufficient for salvation, without the addition of the doctrines of men, including ours, and that "God knows those who are His"- seeing through to the secret motivations and attitudes of our hearts. We also believe that when evry knee has bowed and every tongue has confessed, every soul will have repented from the heart and believed in the love of God and the Lordship of Jesus. We believe that Phil. 2:10 speaks of the sincere repentance and faith towards God of every being.

We believe that salvation is a progressive experience of revelation, restoration and transformation through which the babe becomes a child and then grows into the mature image of the Son of God, who is the express image of the Father(Ephesians 4:10-16; Romans 8:28-30, Heb 1:1-3). Because 'Mercy triumphs over judgment", we believe the punishments of God are corrective, measured in degree to the offenses of the transgressor and that after every adversary has been made subject to Jesus Christ, He(Jesus) will return all things to the Father and God will be all in all(1Cor. 15 23-28), as was His plan from the beginning (Romans 8:17-30). God revealed Himself preeminently at the cross where cataracts of love where poured out upon all mankind through the broken body of Jesus Christ.

We do not believe we understand all of the will of God. we do believe we understand enough of the will of God to proclaim good news and to rejoice in the truth and to defend the faith that was ONCE and FOR ALL delivered to the saints through the Holy Spirit acting through Jesus, the prophets and the apostles.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 16:25-27)
"But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
(Act 3:18-22)

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com