Thoughts regarding heaven

[IceMan84]

Hello,
I have been thinking about heaven recently and am curious to get some people's opinions. It seems that almost everyone has very clear images in their minds of what hell would be like...burning in a lake of fire, tormented by demons, etc. However, I know in the past that I have spend so much time worrying about hell that I haven't spent as much time thinking about what heaven would be like. Sorry if this question seems rather elementary or child-like, but I was just wondering what everyone's vision of heaven is. I know that no one knows for sure, but what do you picture in your mind? What do you actually spend your time doing in heaven? After all, eternity is a long time! Thanks in advance for any responses!

[CHB]

Will we be in Heaven for ages and ages? I doubt it. The universe is a mighty big area. I have always imagined that since we are images of our Father and he is a creator, that we might be creators also. I could just imagine myself being on a distant planet and making it into a beautiful place to live. I always dreamed of living by the ocean, lake, creek. Water is so peaceful. Just think of the possibilities.   

CHB

[WhiteWings]

CHB,

I don't mind CHB if you don't start fishing in my creek 
The ocean you can keep. I go for a forrest.

For IceMan we create a very cold planet so he can ice skate millions of years 

It seems that almost everyone has very clear images in their minds of what hell would be like...burning in a lake of fire, tormented by demons, etc.

The image of fire I can understand. But tormenting demons.... Where did that come from? The devil and his angels are cast in the LoF as punishment not to be ruler over mankind...

Not much about heaven is decribed.
Floating on clouds can't be found in the Bible.
The only heavenly description is a city with streets of gold and all kind of gems. I hope it isn't like that because then I rather keep earth in its present state! 

[IceMan84]

CHB,

I don't mind CHB if you don't start fishing in my creek 
The ocean you can keep. I go for a forrest.

For IceMan we create a very cold planet so he can ice skate millions of years 

It seems that almost everyone has very clear images in their minds of what hell would be like...burning in a lake of fire, tormented by demons, etc.

The image of fire I can understand. But tormenting demons.... Where did that come from? The devil and his angels are cast in the LoF as punishment not to be ruler over mankind...

Not much about heaven is decribed.
Floating on clouds can't be found in the Bible.
The only heavenly description is a city with streets of gold and all kind of gems. I hope it isn't like that because then I rather keep earth in its present state! 

I was probably thinking about some excerpts from that "23 minutes in hell" book when I referred to being tormented by demons. I read a little bit of it online and the guy talks about demons grabbing at him and trying to tear him apart.

[WhiteWings]

He was in the prison cell with steel bars. Right?
One of the demons had fish like claws with razor sharp nails?

You know what even if hell is real I can't believe the demon part.
Demons are the adversaries of God. According to ET the same for 95% of humanity.
I bet the demons love being in hell if they have their sadistic control over the humans.
Basicly the demons would have gotten their own heaven because they oppossed God...

Doesn't make much sense to me.

[sven]

i dont believe in "heaven", in my opinion the bible never says the believer will live in a realm called heaven as most christians imagine, the new earth seems not to be an abstract heaven for me, but i have no imagination how things will be, when God is all in all.

It might be an amazing world or universe, the bible says nothing about in my view, but i think the bible teaches resurrection of the body, not a spiritual afterlive.

[WhiteWings]

i dont believe in "heaven", in my opinion the bible never says the believer will live in a realm called heaven as most christians imagine, the new earth seems not to be an abstract heaven for me, but i have no imagination how things will be, when God is all in all.

Indirectly it's in the Bible.
God is in the Heavens (the sky is also the heavens BTW)
After we die the spirit returns to God => who is in heaven.
Revelation also pictures a heaven when you read the part about the bowls and trumpets.

It might be an amazing world or universe, the bible says nothing about in my view, but i think the bible teaches resurrection of the body, not a spiritual afterlive.

Resurrection I certainly agree on.
But, and I'm not 100% sure about this part, the resurrection takes place at the start of the 1000 year reign of Jesus; after that reign is another and final step that might be spiritual
 

[sven]

After we die the spirit returns to God => who is in heaven.

but the spirit doesnt live, Salomo say the dead know nothing, he wouldnt say this, if he meant, the spirit returns to God living there

Ecclesiastes 3,19
For, as regardeth the destiny of the sons of men and the destiny of beasts, one fate, have they, as dieth the one, so, dieth the other, and, one spirit, have they all, - and, the pre-eminence of man over beast, is nothing, for, all, were vanity

[martincisneros]

And you believe that the spiritual conditions that existed in Solomon's day, [if those were the conditions of existence,] that those still exist after the Cross??

[WhiteWings]

After we die the spirit returns to God => who is in heaven.

but the spirit doesnt live, Salomo say the dead know nothing, he wouldnt say this, if he meant, the spirit returns to God living there

I wonder if that is relevant....?
Say the spirit is in coma until resurrection; then it doesn't know anything either.
Anyway after resurrection the spirits 'knows again'
When we get our glorified bodies the spirit return again to the body. (my guess I can prove with a verse)
And then the question is where the body/spirit combo is.

[WhiteWings]

And you believe that the spiritual conditions that existed in Solomon's day, [if those were the conditions of existence,] that those still exist after the Cross??

God doesn't change.
In the eyes of God all men are equal.

Doesn't that mean that God treats all spirits equally?

[sven]

And you believe that the spiritual conditions that existed in Solomon's day, [if those were the conditions of existence,] that those still exist after the Cross??

in general yes, but in fact it changes nothing for the single person, wether you sleep hundreds or thousands of years and then awake or if you continue to live in the moment you die, it would have the same effect because you´re not aware of sleeping, so it doesnt matter how long you have slept when you awake, 1000 years might have passed in a second. if you believe in universalism it doesnt matter that much, its only important when discussing with ET people to reject the idea of immortal soul and people beeing in hell right know.

but in my opinion the bible (also the New Testament) states pretty clear, both future resurection and future punishment. but sometimes i also tend to the idea of living right after death.

Doesn't that mean that God treats all spirits equally?

dont mix up spirit and soul, its not the same - i think spirit can also be translated with breath

[martincisneros]

God doesn't change.
In the eyes of God all men are equal.

Doesn't that mean that God treats all spirits equally?

I'm not sure that God does regard all men equally because He makes a distinction between the righteous and the wicked, there are different levels or orders in the resurrection according to 1Corinthians 15, and St. Paul uses the illustration of the physical body where each part is very important, but each part has a different function, a different level of exposure to the general public, a different level of defense by the rest of the body from injury, etc.  If God treats all spirits equally, then are we likewise going to fall like lightning from heaven as Satan did?  Does God speak to all men equally when some disbelieve that there is a God, while others, to hear them talk, seem to have a never ending two way conversation with God.  Not all of us have the same giftings and functions in the Kingdom of God.  Christ Jesus didn't appoint all men to be Apostles, or all men to be Prophets, or all men to be Evangelists, or all men to be Pastors or Teachers.  Romans 12, 1Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4, 1st and 2nd Timothy, and Titus makes a distinction between various ministries, giftings, purposes, levels of grace, etc.  Romans 13 says that people in political power don't bare the sword in vain, while the rest of us are instructed to live peaceably with all men as much and as best as we're able to. 

Not all actions are the same, since some are to be restrained even with the death penalty if necessary according to Scripture.  Peter's writings say that the younger ought to respect their elders, although St. Paul seems to throw a monkey wrench in things by qualifying what constitutes an elder in giftings, wisdom, and most particularly in behaviour and attitude.  In the book of Revelation God isn't treating the Beast and the False Prophet in the same way as He's treating anyone else because they go into the Lake of Fire a thousand years earlier than anyone and they were no closer to getting out at the end of the thousand years when the devil was thrown in there with them.  Scripture is very careful to distinguish between types of men based upon behaviour, station in life, gifting from God, and the end intended by the Lord as when the New Testament praises the patience of Job.  Not everyone who loses everything receives double all that they'd lost within a year of having lost it, like Job did.  Some people die broke and some people die rich.  All of these things depend upon the seeds that were sown and the type of conditions that were maintained for the seeds sown, and whether or not God chooses to command His blessing upon the seeds that have been sown so that no sowing and reaping will be required for two or three year increments because of how much He causes to come in.  Otherwise, it winds up being the natural course of events with the seeds that have been sown if people aren't Jubilee'd into a whole higher plane of existence through Father's commanded blessing.

[WhiteWings]

God doesn't change.
In the eyes of God all men are equal.

Doesn't that mean that God treats all spirits equally?

I'm not sure that God does regard all men equally because He makes a distinction between the righteous and the wicked,.....

Some verses I based my claim on.
Possibly pulled out of context. What's new 
And possibly meaning "same crime=same time" type of equallity 


Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works
Acts 10:34  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 10:12  or there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Galatians 2:6  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:)....
Ephesians 6:9  .... knowing that your Master  also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Colossians 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
James 3:17   But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, .... without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
1 Peter 1:17  And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Equality by our standards, no, equal in promise by grace faith and love, yes.

[Taffy]

 God ,Not a Respector of Persons?

 Just could it be  the Flesh within Man, the Heart and Mind , irrespective what Nationality.

[martincisneros]

Some verses I based my claim on.
Possibly pulled out of context. What's new 
And possibly meaning "same crime=same time" type of equallity 
Psalm 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works

Yes, His mercies are over all His works.  An excellent argument against ET, but doesn't change the meaning of the passage of Scripture I mentioned about different giftings, appointments, purposes, judgments based upon actions, etc.

Acts 10:34  Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

The next part says but in every nation He that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him.  Not all currently do or have over the last couple thousand years.

Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

This passage is qualified by the 6th through the 10th verses where each is judged based upon his works with different outcomes based upon the findings when judged by the standard of God's previously established Word.  He says that each will get according to His deeds irrespective of His taking any special liking to anyone.  It'll all be fair.

Romans 10:12  or there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rich unto all that call upon Him rather than rich unto all in the present age.  In future ages as more call upon Him, then He'll be rich to them as well because there is no respect of persons with God as you've already noted.

Galatians 2:6  But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:)....

Likely speaking of the Gospel being applicable to all, and there being no difference or exemptions between his ministry and anyone else's from the standpoint that he's doing what he's called to do in, for, and through the body, just as every other minister/ministry is doing where God has placed them in, for, and through the body to the world.

Ephesians 6:9  .... knowing that your Master  also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

This is regarding slave masters and slaves being treated according to their works so that the owner of the slave didn't have any special privelege with God and would get the same blessings/penalties for the same actions as the slave.

Colossians 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Each don't commit the same wrong, therefore each don't receive for the same wrong.

James 3:17   But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, .... without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

The first chapter says that He'll give you His wisdom if you ask by faith and He won't upbraid you for your lack of wisdom.  The lack of partiality to God's wisdom is that the same principles will work for whoever will apply them.  An airplane would have worked when James was writing that as it'll work in the 21st Century, but they didn't understand the laws that governed flight back then and didn't have the materials developed that go into the science of flying.  But all of our technology today would have worked back then if they'd had it.

1 Peter 1:17  And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

There's no such thing as being so close with God that He won't still judge you for wickedness.  In other words, the Popes and Bishops of the dark ages were never close enough to God for the Crusades to have been either blessed or overlooked by God.  They're receiving the same penalty for their works as Adolf Hitler and all of his men will receive, irrespective of levels of spirituality or whatever.

All excellent Scriptures for proving that God is always going to be Who He is and will treat each the same in judgment when all of the evidence is in and it's time for judgment, particularly after death as Hebrews 9:27 would say, but they don't change what St. Peter said about our being stewards of manifold grace, and of each person being a different member of the body, according to St. Paul, and having different gifts proportioned to their faithfulness, their place in the body, the urgency of the times, and everything else that would have any baring on God intervening and endowing certain ones with what He has for them because of what He needs from them in the earth for the direction of each segment of the Body and each segment of the Nations that He would want directed towards a certain end.  In the ages to come, He'd show the exceeding riches of His grace, according to Ephesians 2, which indicates just an ever-expanding display of His great love with greater and greater intensity that as sin has abounded grace is much more abounding.  Mark 4, Isaiah 9, Isaiah 30:26 and other passages illustrate the ever-increasing nature of what God is doing so that it's not the same manifestations as in previous eons.  Everything that God is doing additionally is about more, according to 2Corinthians 9.

[WhiteWings]

Possibly pulled out of context. What's new 

Should be:

And possibly meaning "same crime=same time" type of equallity 

Clear.

[martincisneros]

Hi WhiteWings,

They were all important verses for me to recheck everything that I've been saying to see if their context required a modification of what I've been saying.  Each of us can have a very, very, very deep relationship with God -- much deeper than we'd ever imagine in this life.  But like the chapters of a book, if the book were the world and each chapter were each life -- each chapter's going to be completely different even if it all got the same loving attention to detail from Father.  Certain stages of the story of all of human history and certain individuals within that are going to create more excitement in Him and response from Him than other pages, but where each revision must be made in each life it'll be done without hypocrisy and without partiality. 

Each page serves a different purpose in a book and all don't tell either the same story or the same part of the same story.  But without each part, without each letter, you couldn't get from here to there and too much wouldn't make sense of even the more exciting parts without the seemingly bland parts that tie absolutely everything together.  Where really bad typos exist, He's the editor that we can all count on to get our lives completely right.  But no page is going to fail to have His attention to detail whether it creates less or greater excitement for Him than some of the other pages or chapters.  Each page is incredibly important, but each page doesn't have the same page number.  The story isn't complete without each page and without each page having a different page number, there could be nothing but horrible confusion about where everything fits.

[reFORMer]

(I don't right now know if I put the whole thing on tentmaker somewhere, but here's the first part of something I called:  "Heaven and Our True Near at Hand Hope")


We think Jesus on the cross promised entry to it that day to the malefactor beside him. (Lk 23:43)  Yet Paradise is the term used, not Heaven.  Maybe it seems an eccentric quibble to point it out.  The phrase "go to heaven" never actually occurs in the Bible in relation to anything.  Some similar wording is attached to Paul's described experience (2 Co 12) though he didn't die, there are three heavens involved and Paradise comes up again.  Heaven is not ever used in Scripture for a location in death, though that is it's popular meaning in contemporary English.  While something at least like that place is referred to by Jesus (Lk 23:43) as "Paradise," it isn't anywhere expressly stated that death is a prerequisite for entrance (Rv 2:7) to it.  Indeed, it seems there are testimonies like Paul's (2 Co 12) from some among us concerning this place where all saints go.

While never presented as our destination, "heaven" is our place of origin (Rev 21:9-10) and present habitation (Eph 2:6.)  The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture. The commentaries like to explain it with a Latin term to sound like they know what they're talking about. They say the plural "heavens" is majestis pluralis, meaning plural only to communicate the exceeding glory of heaven. In reality there are three (3) heavens, (2 Co 12:2) corresponding to the dimensions of spirit (where peculiarly God's presence is), soul (psychic realm,) and body (the heaven of earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.) Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.) While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.

The realm of Paradise is the higher, closer side, that more directly seen through God's eyes, of this same creation of our outer lowered flesh man, though it is much more than that too. The vast and supernal expression, "...out of Him and through Him and into Him is the All..." (Romans 11:36) is translated by The New English Bible as, "He is the Source and the Guide and the Goal of everything..." Whatever is has it's Source side. The immanent presentation of the cosmos is to not decide our disposition in reality. "Judge not by appearances; but, judge righteous judgment." (Isaiah) Through the realignment or manipulation of the Holy Spirit I have been granted to glimpse the glory that is right now just around the corner, if we could but enter into the Presence of Our Father.

The common misconception is that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven. Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not. When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.) The apostle Paul (in Phillipians 3) described his aim: "If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead..." (v.3) "I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus..." (v.14) "For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself." (v.19-21) Resurrection followed by ascension is actually at the finish of the race we are in.


your brother, James M Rohde