Author Topic: The word 'Carnal'  (Read 3525 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2010, 12:11:55 AM »
Amen and Amen
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2010, 12:21:32 AM »
I think it also goes back to what "one" person deems a word to mean may not necessarily be what another person sees that word to mean.  Which takes me back to the idea where emphasizing written word over spiritual truth will always bring different results. 

In the King James, surprisingly, it's only used eleven times.  See if there's any pattern that emerges as you go down the list of passages.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cr 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Hbr 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

I'm not really seeing where "sexual" is coming into play in the context of where this word is being used.  Perhaps the translators have again chosen a poor word in place of the original rendition?

Or maybe it's because Websters isn't taking context under consideration in it's rendering of the word?

Strongs puts it this way . . .
1) fleshly, carnal

a) having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites

1) governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God

2) having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature

3) human: with the included idea of depravity

b) pertaining to the flesh

1) to the body: related to birth, linage, etc

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2010, 01:14:18 AM »


Some translations do not even translate "sarkinos" to the word Carnal in the first place but seem to use the KJV use of the word "sarx".





Offline Dallas

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2010, 02:14:36 AM »
Quote
I think it also goes back to what "one" person deems a word to mean may not necessarily be what another person sees that word to mean.

That's the problem, people invent their own word meaning. There is one meaning based on word usage and context. If I think running means to fight the good fight and someone else thinks it means to slowly think, discussion won't mean anything.... because running doesn't mean either of those, it means to run.

The bible is no different, the words need to remain the words....usless mystisim and ideologies have invaded, distorted and has caused much error.

The origonal words must remain with thier origonal meaning.

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2010, 06:39:54 AM »
I often wonder about Carnal wisdom vs. Spiritual wisdom. 
For example, most people today can see very well that the idea of unending unbearable tortures is cruel and completely nonsense without ever having to pick up a bible.  But someone who actually studies the whole bible and does not just thump a bunch of scriptures out of context will know that is not what the bible teaches. 

We also understand that people respond better to love than fear.  In fact, moreso today people dont really respect the one who uses fear.  Bible teaches perfect love casts out all fear.  Most Fundamentalist Churches teach this fear based theology.

The bible also tells us to avoid such things as dishonesty, thievery, adultery, and murder.  But someone could figure that out on reason alone. 

In the Gospels, Jesus really came down hard on the Institutionalized Church, and really let the holier than thou pharisees have it for their legalistic attitudes.  Yet throughout history, people have always fought against institutional religion, Buddha from the belief in the Caste System, Some Greek Philosopher from the beliefs of Pagan Mythology, Martin Luther, Clement of Alexandria(I think), and not to mention all the people today who are leaving the Institutionalized Churches due to their strict Dogmas and rules. 

On reason alone, we have shown that the bible and human reasoning can coincide.  But it looks like carnal refer to inclinations that are weaknesses to us, but if we thought about them, and live through them, we could see them as bad.
-Love For money
-Desire to please a political, religious or corporate leader.
-Having sex with as many people as possible
-Need to have authority over others
-Desire to get revenge on others
-Racism, sexism, denominationalism, agism.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2010, 03:52:11 PM »
Everything requires a balance.  Wine is great for the heart.  To much you get drunk and one can't operate responsibly.  Go overboard and it could kill you.  But so can water.  It all has to do with discerning the right balance which really applies to everything.

I see Scripture is no different.  If I merely focus on the natural, I miss the spiritual growth that comes from it.  If I embrace the moral, I can become rigid and unmovable as well.  But if I realize there is a literal manifestation, a moral application, and a spiritual revelation and keep all three in their proper perspectives, the balance of them translates into me experiencing the very promises and decrees the Spirit originally intended.

I don't want to embrace just the literal definition of the word.  The Pharisees did that and look how that turned out.  I don't want to embrace just the moral end of it either because the current church has already been-there-done-that only to have to let go of everything they've embraced, which right now, most are not.  But it's the spiritual that I "do" want to pursue because of many reasons.

One, I believe once I enter into the proper alignment originally established by God where spirit is dominant over moral and natural, then the secondary levels will fall into place without any effort on my part.  Two, I believe that is where we are all called to walk in.  And three, it's the one place where the carnal mind can not pervert because it can't comprehend it.

And since I "have" pursued the spiritual message by way of patterns, types and shadows, and symbolisms, I've yet to find pieces that don't fit.  It all seems to just come together in one fantastic and mystical even, tapestry of love, life and freedom.

Offline claypot

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2010, 04:38:40 PM »
Nathan, that is a great way to see things. Man, that's good. Thanks.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2010, 05:24:37 PM »
carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

 :cloud9: Hey chuck.......those 2 are not carnal although men will mimic what is real from time to time. If you've never experienced either by the hand of the Spirit, I know it's hard to grasp that He can and does do that, but He does. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline chuckt

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2010, 05:47:31 PM »
carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

 :cloud9: Hey chuck.......those 2 are not carnal although men will mimic what is real from time to time. If you've never experienced either by the hand of the Spirit, I know it's hard to grasp that He can and does do that, but He does. Blessings....

ok
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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2010, 06:06:12 PM »
carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

 :cloud9: Hey chuck.......those 2 are not carnal although men will mimic what is real from time to time. If you've never experienced either by the hand of the Spirit, I know it's hard to grasp that He can and does do that, but He does. Blessings....

Perhaps, but I have yet to meet anyone that can demonstrate the difference.



Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2010, 06:30:29 PM »
 :cloud9: Again, when it happens to you, or thru you, there is NO DOUBT it was the Spirit of God.

In actuality, you can sometimes physically feel the Spirit coming when He does it, and He comes at your forehead. No enemy can stand in His presence, and the carnal mind is His enemy.

You become light as a feather, and usually fall straight back. In your normal state, if you were to try to fall straight back, your instinct is put your behind out and sort of sit down. When you're "slain", you can't do that; you are not in control. And then the peace hits and you don't want to move even if you could.......

This is why when the guards came and asked Him if He was Jesus of Nazareth and He said, "I AM", they fell. The "I AM" aspect of God is the one that brought them out of Egypt (a type of the flesh) with POWER. It is God demonstrating with signs and wonders that His Spirit rules over the flesh at HIS will.

As for the laughter, it's the joy of the Lord in manifestation. When my mother lay in a coma in the hospital dying from cancer, I was broken. A friend that morning knew I was going to see her (the hospital was almost 2 hours away) and the Lord gave  her a dream that as I was praying for my mother, when I touched her feet the joy of the Lord hit me.

It happened exactly as she had seen it in her dream. As soon as I touched her feet, it hit and I laughed with tears coming down my face for 20 minutes. It had hit me before with her, the day we found out she had terminal cancer. I had to pull over, I couldn't even drive and I laughed for a half hour, praying for her. The joy of the Lord IS our strength. Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2010, 06:36:47 PM »
 :cloud9: Also wanted to add, in reference to the definition of carnal.......it has to do with ORIGIN. What spirit is the origin of what is being done or said?

This is one reason why discernment of spirits is given as a gift; to teach us to discern thru His Spirit what the origin of something is.

It's like the nose, telling us what is good to eat, and what is spoiled and not good to eat. Blessings.....

 
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2010, 06:47:40 PM »
Forgive me cardinal, I do this sometimes in areas where I have a lot of religious persuasion.   I really should be more open to certain terms when it comes to an individuals experiences. 

When I heard the terms I had a lot of images of public spectacles of such things in churches where there is an expectation of how one must appear to have those things happen.  I believe the vast majority of public spectacles in churches are shams and people wanting to fit in and be a part of the moment rather than any real spiritual manifestations.

I believe I have been slain in the spirit based on what I sometimes hear, I just know it had nothing to do with the paralyzing of my physical body.

I have had joyous moments and it had nothing to do with physical laughter, both moments are deeply engrained into my emotions, never needing to be repeated, they are permanent and I am not lacking if I they are never repeated.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2010, 07:16:58 PM »
Forgive me cardinal, I do this sometimes in areas where I have a lot of religious persuasion.   I really should be more open to certain terms when it comes to an individuals experiences. 

When I heard the terms I had a lot of images of public spectacles of such things in churches where there is an expectation of how one must appear to have those things happen.  I believe the vast majority of public spectacles in churches are shams and people wanting to fit in and be a part of the moment rather than any real spiritual manifestations.

I believe I have been slain in the spirit based on what I sometimes hear, I just know it had nothing to do with the paralyzing of my physical body.

I have had joyous moments and it had nothing to do with physical laughter, both moments are deeply engrained into my emotions, never needing to be repeated, they are permanent and I am not lacking if I they are never repeated.



 :cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe. At the moment of "impact" you have no awareness whatsoever of anything. The first time it happened to me, about 3 months after my initial salvation experience, I had been led of Him to go to speak to a particular person. It happened that the church (a converted barn) was having a gathering that weekend.

I was in the bathroom changing to be baptized in water, when I heard over the speaker in there, a word of knowledge come for me, from a pastor I had never met. I was taken down to the front where people were lined up being prayed for my this pastor. I saw them fall after he touched them, and I was TERRIFIED. I started crying asking Him in my mind to not let that man touch me, promising I would never return to this la la land, LOL.

When he came to me, he not only didn't touch me, he backed up about 8 feet away from me and told me the Lord said He wants to give you more power if you'll trust Him for it. I was ignoring him until the 4th time he said this, and then to get it over with, I asked the Lord not to let any spirit but His be over me.

Once I agreed, the Lord opened my spiritual eyes and I saw what looked like a comet coming thru the roof from the stars and it "hit" me in the forehead and I was "slain". It was 4 months before it me that I probably seen the "tongues" of fire that fell on the day of Pentecost. A comet's tail is like a "tongue".

I do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference. It is as them "fornicating under every green tree" mentioned in the OT. When the soul sees where the life (green) was, it will be tempted to mimic it. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2010, 08:00:02 PM »

 :cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe.

It is impossible for you to describe to me the workings of the spirit in you and vice versa.

I cannot judge that such things have never happen to you, I can judge that if you make a public spactacle of yourself that I do not have to believe it's real.


Quote
I do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference.



No, this is what church leadership claims in order to judge members sincerity.  You have a public display of such things and the leadership declares God was there, so what, that claim means nothing.   I believe that your experiences are yours and yours alone, the second you try to display them and convince me of what I should do for it to be real, you have proven yours is not.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2010, 08:19:13 PM »

 :cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe.

It is impossible for you to describe to me the workings of the spirit in you and vice versa.

I cannot judge that such things have never happen to you, I can judge that if you make a public spactacle of yourself that I do not have to believe it's real.


Quote
I do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference.



No, this is what church leadership claims in order to judge members sincerity.  You have a public display of such things and the leadership declares God was there, so what, that claim means nothing.   I believe that your experiences are yours and yours alone, the second you try to display them and convince me of what I should do for it to be real, you have proven yours is not.

 :cloud9: Yes it is impossible to describe to someone else.

I guess then "I" made a "public spectacle" of myself because He saw fit to do it in a church? It's ALL God and HIS timing, we have no control over it.

These things happen for the unbelief IN US to fall, to make us aware that the Spirit is real and can be experienced in a multitude of ways. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2010, 08:45:19 PM »

 :cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe.

It is impossible for you to describe to me the workings of the spirit in you and vice versa.

I cannot judge that such things have never happen to you, I can judge that if you make a public spactacle of yourself that I do not have to believe it's real.


Quote
I do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference.



No, this is what church leadership claims in order to judge members sincerity.  You have a public display of such things and the leadership declares God was there, so what, that claim means nothing.   I believe that your experiences are yours and yours alone, the second you try to display them and convince me of what I should do for it to be real, you have proven yours is not.

 :cloud9: Yes it is impossible to describe to someone else.

I guess then "I" made a "public spectacle" of myself because He saw fit to do it in a church? It's ALL God and HIS timing, we have no control over it.

These things happen for the unbelief IN US to fall, to make us aware that the Spirit is real and can be experienced in a multitude of ways. Blessings....



Where it happens for your personal walk is between you and God.  To assert that I have to believe your display in public because it is declared real is another matter.   




Offline chuckt

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2010, 09:03:06 PM »
last time i walked into a church and i saw folks rolling around on the ground and speaking gibberish i thought they were mad....

but hey thats  just me....
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2010, 09:06:27 PM »
 :cloud9: So did I until I EXPERIENCED it, as I related above. He uses the foolish things to confound the wise and there is little else as foolish looking as that.  :winkgrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline chuckt

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2010, 09:42:46 PM »
:cloud9: So did I until I EXPERIENCED it, as I related above. He uses the foolish things to confound the wise and there is little else as foolish looking as that.  :winkgrin:

nothing personal CARD.

and i have indeed experienced the Holy spirit, its awsome....

just because something looks foolish dont make it of God...just saying.

God is not for confusion IN THE CHURCHES.

but i do agree for everything thats real there is counterfit.

God bless
chuckt
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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2010, 09:59:37 PM »
:cloud9: So did I until I EXPERIENCED it, as I related above. He uses the foolish things to confound the wise and there is little else as foolish looking as that.  :winkgrin:

nothing personal CARD.

and i have indeed experienced the Holy spirit, its awsome....

just because something looks foolish dont make it of God...just saying.

God is not for confusion IN THE CHURCHES.

but i do agree for everything thats real there is counterfit.

God bless
chuckt

I agree, trying not to make this personal at all.   I have seen much spiritual abuse from the hands of people who act a certain way, then critique others through that idea of what it "should" look like.   Even though it was a blessing in disguise, I left a church after I heard the leadership deny that a person was saved because they could recognize someone who was "really" speaking in tongues.  In reality they did nothing more than babble themselves. 

The individuals experience is as unique as there are people.   The group mentality in churches causes so much confusion that sincerity cannot be actually recognized in the first place.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2010, 11:02:20 PM »
 :cloud9: Hi guys.....not offended in the least but thanks for considering.......I'm not being a "cheerleader" for the churches or what goes on in them that is flesh, far from it. Just want to point out that the real thing does exist so that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline peacemaker

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2010, 01:53:00 AM »
"Wake up and smell the coffee."

Human frailties   :coffee2:

Offline chuckt

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2010, 02:29:35 PM »
wake up a drink the coffee :happy3: :happy3: :bgdance:
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Syndicated

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2010, 06:53:42 PM »
Quote
wake up a drink the coffee

On my second cup of the morning   :bigGrin:


I believe that if God wants to 'slay' someone, it shouldn't matter to that person whether or not he/she looks foolish or silly or rediculous in public.  If God wanted to come upon me and slay me with His spirit in the middle of the mall, He can do just that.  Yes I believe people would judge me for it, but if it's something God wants to pour out on me, it doesn't matter where I am.

I have never had a 'slaying' experience, but last year I had a laughter experience... in the middle of a coffee shop durring a bible study.  I laughed hard for about 20 minutes straight, tears falling, and there was no way I could keep it under control, even though I tried so we could continue with the study.  I didn't feel foolish or silly, I was just overcome with joy, peace and love.  The person I was with was not in the least bit surprised and said that it happened quite often when he taught truth to people and God revealed something to someone.

At the same time, I don't believe that all 'slayings' or fits of laughter or crying is God pouring out His spirit upon people.  I believe some of it can be that that person just wants to believe God would touch them in a spiritual way, almost forcing it to happen.  Some of it can be as simple as someone doesn't want to feel 'left out' of God's pouring out on people, so to show everyone else around them that God would bless them they would put on a show.

Some of it could also be emotional hype...

In the summer of '94 I was doing some inner city work in LA with my youth group as a special missions trip.  One night we were in a small church in Watts (one of the most notorious neighborhoods in LA for violent crime) listening to a couple of ex-cons give their testimonies.  After they were finished, we were sitting around in a circle (about 20-25 of us all together) and we started praying.  Gun shots started going off in the area so we prayed for His hand to keep us safe from any harm.  We started singing after prayer and as if on cue everyone started crying, even the ex-cons... not crying because we were afraid or anything, we all knew that we were safe that night.  I don't know if it was because of the emotions running high in the room or if it was actually God pouring His Spirit upon us.  I would think that if it WAS God it would have been something to change my life entirely from that point instead of going through most of my 20's not wanting anything to do with Him.

I believe that God can't touch a person and NOT leave an everlasting change in their life.