Author Topic: The word 'Carnal'  (Read 3957 times)

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The word 'Carnal'
« on: April 21, 2010, 09:55:12 PM »
I have seen this word pop up more and more in threads referring to carnality of man and I am wondering the thoughts behind the use of it.

Webster's defines Carnal as:
1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>
2 : bodily, corporeal <seen with carnal eyes>
3 a : temporal <carnal weapons> b : worldly <a carnal mind>

From what I am seeing lately this word is being used to mean 'sinful'.  Though the acts described behind the definition of carnal are seen as sinful by mainstream Christians, I believe that God did NOT create a sinful man.  The bible tells us in Genesis that we have been created in His image.  Seeing as God is not sinful, we were not created to be sinful people.  Sin (and hence death) is the result of the lies of humans believing the serpent in the garden instead of believing the truth of God, not because God created 'Carnal Man'... He created 'Man in HIS image'... pure, righteous and holy... not decietful, evil and selfish (the results of sin).  Do we as humans have sexual urges?  Of course, it's how procreation happens, and we were created to reproduce!  It's when we give in to those desires to elevate us in our own minds to a point to make us feel better about ourselves over and over again instead of realizing the truth of who we were created by and for, that's when it becomes carnal.  But just because we sin doesn't mean that we are carnal beings.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2010, 10:12:37 PM »
Yes, God did create us in his image.  Did he create carnality "in" us?  I don't see that he did.  I see that he created us out of the dust of this earth, but then transported us to the garden where spirit was predominant over natural.  But when Adam fell, he returned back to "this" realm which is where carnality is the prince and power of the air . .it is the governing force and because we were originally created from the elements this realm consists of, our flesh is very much influenced by carnality.

Sin, to me is the evidence that carnality is at work in us.  Righteousness is the gift that releases us from the power of the carnality of this world that ushers us into the world of light, love and liberty in truth.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 10:14:55 PM »
G4559
σαρκικός
sarkikos
sar-kee-kos'
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2010, 10:18:47 PM »
enmity against God . . .evidence carnality is in play . . .

Not sure where you're intending to go with just posting a definition.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2010, 11:07:25 PM »
I only stated the definition of Strongs because the first post seemed to be stalled on mans understanding, and that being sexual.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2010, 11:08:22 PM »
Sin, to me is the evidence that carnality is at work in us.  Righteousness is the gift that releases us from the power of the carnality of this world that ushers us into the world of light, love and liberty in truth.

Here's a little thought about that...

If there's a starving woman in the street who needs to eat something, and she finds and steals something to feed that hunger within her, she is feeding her carnal (bodily) urge to eat... the same as a lion or a tiger hunts down prey when it gets hungry.  Is she really sinning out of being sinful?  Is she sinning by stealing because she has a carnal urge to eat?  Didn't God create us with the need to eat?

I honestly doubt that her receiving the gift of righteousness will release her from that carnal urge and put food in her belly, or release her from hunger pains altogether.  She can have all the life, love and liberty she wants, but when it comes down to it she will still have hunger pains if she doesn't eat.

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 11:11:48 PM »
I only stated the definition of Strongs because the first post seemed to be stalled on mans understanding, and that being sexual.

I focused on the sexual because it was the prominent theme in the dictionary... 'crude bodily pleasures ', 'marked by sexuality', 'bodily/fleshly'...

There's many more 'carnal' urges and desires man has... to eat, to sleep, have shelter, etc.

Offline Dallas

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 01:44:40 AM »
Quote
I believe that God did NOT create a sinful man
:thumbsup:

Quote
But when Adam fell, he returned back to "this" realm

Hey Nathan, you are aware that Eden was on this planet, it's on a mountain, surrounded on three sides by mountain with only one way in and one way out....right now possesed by the Muslims?

Quote
I honestly doubt that her receiving the gift of righteousness will release her from that carnal urge and put food in her belly, or release her from hunger pains altogether.  She can have all the life, love and liberty she wants, but when it comes down to it she will still have hunger pains if she doesn't eat.

That's the whole point, God didn't send Jesus to save us from life, but in order that we may have it more abunduntley.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 01:56:18 AM »

Eden is possessed by Muslims?

Offline Dallas

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 01:57:39 AM »
Ya, the last time I looked they had armed men and electric fences posted all around it....also around Mount Ararat...that's what they believe to be the mountain of God.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 01:58:20 AM »

But where is Eden?

Offline Dallas

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2010, 02:03:11 AM »
It's a physical Garden, not sure exactally where, check google, I saw a show on it, a reporter was driven in to a military area of it, he wasn't allowed in, they even blind folded him....

They found it using the bible's mention of when Cain left the base of the mountain of Eden, he went to Nod wich is east of Eden. Genesis 4:16

Offline Dallas

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2010, 02:04:52 AM »
Ya, check it out, Eden's location is well known...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 03:58:20 AM »
This carnal stuff took us to the real location of the garden of eden, which is surrounded by muslims?

And because the dictionarys of men  lable the identification of carnal as to do with sex is the very reason I posted the Strongs defintion. Carnality is the flesh.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline chuckt

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 01:55:25 PM »
dont forget that the ""flesh"' also loves all kinds of religous rituals and rules and regulations.

Col 2:20   Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,  


 Col 2:21   (Touch not; taste not; handle not;  


 Col 2:22   Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?  


 Col 2:23   Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.  



carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.
2

Offline claypot

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2010, 03:27:32 PM »
It seems kind of simple to me. The carnal mind is enmity against God. I take this to mean that when we put our physical, fleshly pleasures above our spiritual needs then we are sinning or missing the mark, which is life more abundantly.

God made man (Adam) with a measure of faith (inner strength) romans 12.3. This faith was overcome by carnality and this was done in perfect accord with Gods plan and desire.

Eve (us) had the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life in full operation within before eating of the tree but it was not sin (enmity against God) until these were given in to.

My  :2c:

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »
Amen to the last two posts.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Dallas

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2010, 04:40:37 PM »
Flesh and Carnality have been blown completley out of porportion. They aren't powerful biblical themes in the sense they are used today.

The flesh can't hold back anything and carnality is just another tool of people to be told why they haven't recieved fullness.

The flesh was removed and carnality is something we live with, the flesh doesn't control us and carnality doesn't rule us...

Offline claypot

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2010, 06:00:54 PM »
But there is a war of sorts on within my being at least.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.gal5.17

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2010, 06:11:07 PM »
Flesh and Carnality have been blown completley out of porportion. They aren't powerful biblical themes in the sense they are used today.

The flesh can't hold back anything and carnality is just another tool of people to be told why they haven't recieved fullness.

The flesh was removed and carnality is something we live with, the flesh doesn't control us and carnality doesn't rule us...

Sorry Dallas, I see things much differently.  I'll agree that there can be different perspectives on what carnality is.  I don't believe eating food because my body is hungry is what we're talking about at all here so in that sense, I don't see that as giving in to carnal pleasures.  I "do" believe there is a carnal pull that's there constantly and when we walk in the flesh, we're feeding into the carnality.  For me, living in carnality is the opposition of living spiritually.  Living according to my own logic and reasoning is living carnally.  There's no intent to pass condemnation here, but it does explain why depression sets in most when my mind is focussed on "this" realm of life rather than the realm we're all called to walk in, which is the spirit.

As far as Eden goes . . .I've never argued that there isn't an Eden on the earth . . my point was pertaining to the garden "east" of Eden being a spiritual place, not Eden itself.

And lastly, from what I've gathered on the subject of Ararat, it's not a specific mountain, but it's a mountain range which is why no one is really for certain where the ark actually landed.

All of these issues are focusing on natural proofs.  Whether or not we know exactly where Eden is or where Ararat is takes nothing away from the symbolism that they represent in spiritual terms.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2010, 06:21:52 PM »
I have seen this word pop up more and more in threads referring to carnality of man and I am wondering the thoughts behind the use of it.

Webster's defines Carnal as:
1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>
2 : bodily, corporeal <seen with carnal eyes>
3 a : temporal <carnal weapons> b : worldly <a carnal mind>

From what I am seeing lately this word is being used to mean 'sinful'.  Though the acts described behind the definition of carnal are seen as sinful by mainstream Christians, I believe that God did NOT create a sinful man.  The bible tells us in Genesis that we have been created in His image.  Seeing as God is not sinful, we were not created to be sinful people.  Sin (and hence death) is the result of the lies of humans believing the serpent in the garden instead of believing the truth of God, not because God created 'Carnal Man'... He created 'Man in HIS image'... pure, righteous and holy... not decietful, evil and selfish (the results of sin).  Do we as humans have sexual urges?  Of course, it's how procreation happens, and we were created to reproduce!  It's when we give in to those desires to elevate us in our own minds to a point to make us feel better about ourselves over and over again instead of realizing the truth of who we were created by and for, that's when it becomes carnal.  But just because we sin doesn't mean that we are carnal beings.


Carnal really has little to do with "bad" or "guilt" it is simply the discriptor for things that are not spiritual.

As Nathan pointed out, it is a carnal thing to need to eat food to sustain the flesh but that is not in and of itself bad. Obesity is a problem because people substitute the pleasure of eating for spiritual gratification.

Spiritual gratification means you know you need to eat and you are content with having to wait for supper and content to only eat what is necessary, even if it's really good.



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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2010, 07:36:52 PM »
But there is a war of sorts on within my being at least.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.gal5.17

cp

You failed to include the whole context about that passage...


Gal 5:16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

   17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

   18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

   19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

   20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

   21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

   22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

   23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

   24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

   25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

   26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


In verse 24, it's not talking about human urges (carnality) to eat and sleep and have sex, it's talking about what was spoken of in verses 19-21, which names the deeds of the flesh... letting sin and selfishness taking over.  It's not carnality being named in those verses.  Aminals are considered carnal so wouldn't that then mean that they would have to deal with those things as well too then?  Or did God give humans a special brand of carnality?

When you say that there's a battle going in in your being, you're talking about spiritual warfare there... it's your spirit having a battle between its own selfishness and pride (flesh, not carnality) and the truth of Jesus Christ speaking AGAINST that selfishness and pride.

Offline claypot

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2010, 09:08:01 PM »
But there is a war of sorts on within my being at least.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.gal5.17

cp

You failed to include the whole context about that passage...


Gal 5:16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

   17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

   18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

   19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

   20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

   21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

   22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

   23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

   24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

   25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

   26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


In verse 24, it's not talking about human urges (carnality) to eat and sleep and have sex, it's talking about what was spoken of in verses 19-21, which names the deeds of the flesh... letting sin and selfishness taking over.  It's not carnality being named in those verses.  Aminals are considered carnal so wouldn't that then mean that they would have to deal with those things as well too then?  Or did God give humans a special brand of carnality?

When you say that there's a battle going in in your being, you're talking about spiritual warfare there... it's your spirit having a battle between its own selfishness and pride (flesh, not carnality) and the truth of Jesus Christ speaking AGAINST that selfishness and pride.

I wrote this earlier but maybe you failed to see it.

It seems kind of simple to me. The carnal mind is enmity against God. I take this to mean that when we put our physical, fleshly pleasures above our spiritual needs then we are sinning or missing the mark, the mark being life more abundantly.


I'm saying what you are saying partially anyway. I'm saying that carnal things are not bad in and of themselves, but they become bad when they overshadow our spiritual needs.

I do see where we differ and I wonder if it is really a differing or just using different words to say the same thing. You say flesh and carnality are speaking of different things, I see them pointing to the same thing but I could be wrong.

How are these two things different according to you?

I just looked up carnal in Websters and it said……….Main Entry: car•nal
1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2010, 10:01:10 PM »
According to Webster (which I had already posted in the oiriginal post, maybe you failed to see that) the #1 explanation is to be focused on bodily pleasures and appeties, which in the society we live in today reads it as... you guessed it, SEX.  Seeing as Webster added 'CRUDE' before the 'bodily pleasures', I decided to look up 'Crude' there as well, see what it had to say...

Quote
Main Entry: 1crude
Pronunciation: \ˈkrüd\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): crud·er; crud·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin crudus raw, crude, undigested — more at raw
Date: 14th century
1 : existing in a natural state and unaltered by cooking or processing <crude oil>
2 archaic : unripe, immature
3 : marked by the primitive, gross, or elemental or by uncultivated simplicity or vulgarity <a crude stereotype>
4 : rough or inexpert in plan or execution <a crude shelter>
5 : lacking a covering, glossing, or concealing element : obvious <crude facts>
6 : tabulated without being broken down into classes <the crude death rate>

synonyms see rude

— crude·ly adverb

— crude·ness noun

#3 says 'marked by the primitive'.  Primitive people most likely weren't worried about sinning.  They were worried about food, shelter, sleeping and mating.  They were mentally (#2) immature.  It's when we make the word 'crude' into it's synonym of 'RUDE' does it change the meaning entirely.


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I do see where we differ and I wonder if it is really a differing or just using different words to say the same thing. You say flesh and carnality are speaking of different things, I see them pointing to the same thing but I could be wrong.

How are these two things different according to you?

Flesh according to the bible is behavior related, not instinctual or primitive.  This is even stated in the verses I posted from Galatians...

Quote
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


These are all behaviors in sinful men... all will stop when there is no longer a need to fulfill ones self for emotional comfort once finding the peace and freedom through Christ.  As #5 states in the definition of 'Crude', it is lacking a concealing element, which is opposite of what these bahaviors of the flesh do in us through sin...  they conceal what it is that we don't want to be seen within ourselves.  Take away the deeds of the flesh as described in the bible, and you have no need to hide from anything, only to live open and free in the truth, without shame.  However, a man will not stop eating for sustanance, having the need for sleep, shelter and urges for sex after those behaviors stop.

Flesh equals sin.  Sin does not equal carnal.... therefore flesh cannot equal carnal.

Offline claypot

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Re: The word 'Carnal'
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2010, 10:43:05 PM »
All I know for sure is that it is God who is working in me to do AND to will of His good pleasure. Carnal, fleshly, spiritual, crude, vulgar, polite, cheerful, joyful, nasty and so on are ultimately caused by His working in me. Not saying God is any of these nasty things, just saying because everything that has gone into making me, me, are all out of God.

Some of these threads get so complicated or maybe I should say they get maybe too much into the fine details of things that they possibly become useless. I say 'possibly' because what one (me) may find tedious another may find liberating and of the most use possible so I am not judging, I'm just spouting off.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.