Author Topic: The Power of Love  (Read 5926 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Casstranquility

  • Guest
The Power of Love
« on: August 07, 2007, 10:17:11 PM »
I heard a sermon the other day on love. The Pastor said that love was fierce and relentless and passionate. He compared God's love for us to a mother's love for their child. This love would do anything to protect its child from harm. Now, there's a love I could believe in, if it wasn't a failure. You see, they still believe in hell, even with this perception of love. I don't see how it is possible. Isn't hell a threat to God's children?
Will Jesus save all should be such a simple question with a simple answer-of course! Jesus is love, and love does not fail. Love is powerful! Love would never stand by passively while their child was being destroyed. I couldn't even imagine such a thing. I could imagine Love running into a burning fire and grabbing everyone and dragging them out forcefully whether they wanted to come or not! Love saves everyone! There are no choices involved in such a passionate strength! That's like standing in front of a tidal wave and saying "I choose not to be swept away." Doesn't that sound silly? Everyone knows what is going to happen to that person. Jesus is the savior of all, no ifs, ands or buts. The power of Love proves it.

crlnray

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2007, 02:02:56 AM »
I have a question,How can they say God is love and at the same time tell you that you are going to Hell?And even if they teach God is love,and teach you are going to hell are they teaching the truth?I have a friend that says they are teaching what they believe,so it is OK. I have trouble with this.Is he right?He says they don't know better,I say then they should not be teaching.Any thoughts?crlnray :msealed:

Offline AbbasChild

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Father Judges No One
    • Abba's Child
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2007, 11:07:45 AM »
I think one way a lot of believers in hell justify this contradiciton is the heresy that only christians are our Heavenly Father's children through some legal contract established by them by believing the right doctrines.
This is called the 'doctrine of adoption' which is really interesting when properly looked into.
The word adoption didn't mean back then what it means today. Back then they would take their own child at a certain age and confirm it as theirs. It was not about anothers child being adopted. So the word adoption is properbly better translated as 'sonship' or 'childship'. When we see that Creator is also the Father of Creation, then we will also understand that He is responsible for all of it and not just for thos who belong to the right religion. But wasn't this also the trap into which the jews fell until Jesus came and messed up their theoloy?
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

arcticmonster2003

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2007, 12:52:49 PM »
sometimes I think ET confuses God training and correcting his children so they will be full grown with God torturing his children in the basement forever for not doing their chores. I've seen a lot of arguments saying "Well, he gave them plenty of chances to repent", but come on, in the scheme of forever our lifetime on earth wouldn't even amount to a second when compared to forever, thats not much time really when you throw in all of the obstacles here into the equation.

crlnray

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2007, 10:03:28 PM »
sometimes I think ET confuses God training and correcting his children so they will be full grown with God torturing his children in the basement forever for not doing their chores. I've seen a lot of arguments saying "Well, he gave them plenty of chances to repent", but come on, in the scheme of forever our lifetime on earth wouldn't even amount to a second when compared to forever, thats not much time really when you throw in all of the obstacles here into the equation.
Good post :thumbsup:crlnray

crlnray

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2007, 10:07:11 PM »
I think one way a lot of believers in hell justify this contradiciton is the heresy that only christians are our Heavenly Father's children through some legal contract established by them by believing the right doctrines.
This is called the 'doctrine of adoption' which is really interesting when properly looked into.
The word adoption didn't mean back then what it means today. Back then they would take their own child at a certain age and confirm it as theirs. It was not about anothers child being adopted. So the word adoption is properbly better translated as 'sonship' or 'childship'. When we see that Creator is also the Father of Creation, then we will also understand that He is responsible for all of it and not just for thos who belong to the right religion. But wasn't this also the trap into which the jews fell until Jesus came and messed up their theoloy?
Thanks Floyd,I didn't know that was what they meant by adoption.I learned some thing new.Crlnray

Pleroo

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2007, 10:43:56 PM »
Back then they would take their own child at a certain age and confirm it as theirs. It was not about anothers child being adopted. So the word adoption is properbly better translated as 'sonship' or 'childship'.

Floyd, would you happen to have any sources you could cite for this information about adoption in Biblical times?  That would be most useful to have!  Thanks ~ Pleroo

Kept

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2007, 07:17:46 AM »
Hey Floyd

Ive heard sermons on adoption and if I recall correctly, I think the custom was so that noone could dispute geneology and try and get a childs inheritance. It was a safeguard against that.

I could be wrong though and I have no idea where they got their information

arctic I loved your post  :thumbsup:

kept

Offline AbbasChild

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Father Judges No One
    • Abba's Child
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2007, 10:53:37 AM »
Hi Pleroo, I can't remember where I got this information from. If I remember correctly it was more than one place.  When I was more in contact with the 'Fatherheart Movement' I collected a lot of informantion on these things, but I don't know where you would find it on the internet. There are some good books though. I think George Mac Donald talks about it in his book "Discovering The Character Of God" and talks about this 'doctrine of adoption' that was very common in the calvinistic teachings of his time. Interesting is that Martin Luther did not translate it as the 'Spirit of adoption' either, but the 'Spirit of childship or sonship'. In the roman as well as the hebrew culture the term adoption meant something like 'sonplacing'. Intersting is also that one could never be de-adopted after this had taken place. If I can remember some good sources to back this up I will come back again and post you the links.

Kept, I think you are right, but I would also first need to do some research to find out where this information comes from. I think one needs to study the cultures of this time to get a proof for this.

Another book just came to my mind which might discuss this subject. Its called 'From Orphans To Heirs' by a guy called Mark Stibe of something like this. Well, also if you search for "Fatherheart Ministries" and "Shiloh Place Ministries" you might find some information on this, but I can't guarantee it.
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline AbbasChild

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Father Judges No One
    • Abba's Child
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2007, 11:00:54 AM »
I am looking for more information as soon as I've got more time. But I found this article of John Gavazzonie touched the subject I was talking about so I posted it here:




My Dad, God

John R Gavazzoni

November, 1999

Whatever he may or may not have been, Luigi Gavazzoni was certainly my Dad. He died suddenly of a massive heart attack thirteen years ago, as of this writing, and his spirit has gone to be with the One who is Father to both of us; the greater Father "from whom every family in heaven and earth is named" (Eph. 3:15). Yet still, the memory of him can moisten my eyes with a mixture of joy and sorrow. Joy, because the thought of him still nurtures me, and sorrow, because I can no longer reach for the phone and hear the words, "Hi son, how are you?" There was always in the simple greeting the note of spontaneous delight. As he grew older and especially after he surrendered to Christ, the treasure of his heart, after Christ Himself and my mother, was his children. As the oldest of the children, I had the privilege of being taken into his confidence at times when something moved him deeply.

One such time had to do with my younger brother who was going through a period of youthful rebellion. As Dad shared with me his concern and consternation, he suddenly stopped short and with a great surge of emotion that seemed to sweep aside all other considerations, he spoke exactly six words. I remember them as if it were yesterday, though it was over forty years ago: "God, how I love that boy!" Rebellious boy, stubborn boy, disrespectful boy, but a boy loved with a father's love. I wouldn't suggest that you ever speak a disparaging word about Dad in the presence of my brother Ron today, because you might get your clock cleaned. Love conquered and remains the sweet scent of memory. One thing Ron and I know and agree upon: we had a Dad.

I remember the day before Dad's funeral when my youngest brother, overcome with grief, but revealing the fruit of Dad's love in his heart, spoke almost identical words with tears coursing down his cheeks, "God how he loved me." I could go on about the relationship he had with our "baby" sister, the apple of his eye, but that would take a book in itself. I know I may not have avoided coming across as maudlin in this very personal introduction, for that is what I have written thus far; an introduction to a teaching on the fatherhood of God. One thing stands out clearly to me when I compare my father's relationship with his children to the way our Heavenly Father is presented in conventional orthodox theology. It is simply this: Lou Gavazzoni's relationship with me was paternal, not legal. Whatever factors came into play, all was built on a familial, not a forensic foundation. There may at times have been a friendship element, associate-in-business element, fellow-musician element, boss-employee element, even lord-servant element and yes, the element of judgment came up as well. But, I never stood before one who was essentially a judge, who might, after legal matters were settled, then allow himself to be fatherly.

I stood before my father who might, as necessary, act in a firm, unyielding and corrective judgment as part of his love for me. Yet, it seems clear to me, that most of Christianity assumes that a relationship with God is only possible after legal matters are settled. Our minds are so entangled with what we perceive to be legal, judicial and forensic necessities that we miss the Father-heart of God.

If we fully understand the implications of what is thought to be the soundest theology we will see that our religious teachers have led us to believe that God relates to us as in the courtroom rather than the family room. The great words in our English Bibles that have to do with the very foundation and structure of our relationship with God are made to convey cold, legal austerity and then a noble attempt is made to wring some warmth of kinship from them. Some of the words are; "advocate," "atonement," "justification," "redemption," "propitiation," "righteousness," etc. I hope, by the Spirit, to pull aside the veil over our minds, at least a little, concerning the first word in our list: "advocate." It is the Greek word, "parakletos," which conveys this range of meaning: "intercessor, consoler, comforter, counselor, helper, advocate, strengthener, standby." It is used at least in the following scriptures verses: Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7, I Jn. 2:1.

In the King James Version, "parakletos" is translated "advocate," only once, in I Jn. 2:1. In all of the other verses listed above, it is translated "comforter." Any Bible teacher worth his salt knows that the word "parakletos" in the Gospel of John passages, deals with Jesus Christ ministering His riches in glory to His disciples through the Holy Spirit (the intercessor, consoler, helper, strengthener, advocate, standby). But most fundamentalists, evangelicals, Pentecostals, Charismatics and orthodox teachers change the whole meaning and direction of the word in explaining its use in the 1st Epistle of John (I Jn. 2:1). Here, it is taught to mean that Jesus Christ, our "parakletos," instead of ministering in concert with the Holy Spirit to the heart of the believer, is said to be acting as an advocate in the sense of a divine attorney pleading the case of the believer before the bar of God so that the Father, upon hearing Christ's defense of the believer, and the ultimate evidence of the shed blood of Christ on his behalf, will find the sinner/saint not guilty. Even as I must confess that I once believed and taught this perversion, now, I wonder how did we ever get this scenario so turned around and upside down? It goes back to certain church fathers, such as Augustine and Tertullian, who had an obsession with Romish law, and who lacked a full revelation of God's grace.

It does not make sense that John would suddenly take the Greek word which indicates an action of God toward and in the heart of man, (i.e., from heaven toward earth), where in effect, there is a pleading of God's case toward men, and change it to mean a pleading of man's case before God.

How can it be that John in one instance is said to use this word "parakletos" to convey the idea of the Son having to convince the Father to be merciful, when in every other instance, the word clearly means that God is commending His love to us in His Son by the Spirit (II Cor. 5:19). This kind of reasoning is stupid, perverse, nonsensical, idiotic and yes, demonic! I John 2:1 does not reveal Christ advocating before a recalcitrant Deity,but rather demonstrates that He is our advocate with the Father. That is to say, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all acting as one in the advocacy of us and for us. They are, together, helping us, consoling us, counseling us, strengthening us, in order to get us to receive and understand the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. The only sense in which Jesus makes a presentation before the Father is in the sense of presenting His redeeming work for the Father's approval. This, He has done once for all (Heb. 10:12). Then the Father, in effect, says to Jesus, "Yes, your blood is what they need. It was shed just as I commanded you for them. I am for them; you are for them; the Holy Spirit is for them."

We must become clear on this.
Jesus is NOT acting on our behalf in the legal sense of an advocate, but in the sense that He comes to us because He is for us and He is advocating God's cause in our lives. Several times, the blood is presented in scripture as that which our hearts need, not what an angry God needs in order to forgive. Heb. 9:14 speaks of the blood cleansing our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. According to I Pet. 1:2, we are the ones that need to be sprinkled with the blood of Christ. Again in Hebrews 10:22, it is our hearts that need the blood to sprinkle us clean from an evil conscience. In Luke 22, 19,20, Jesus tells the disciples, "This is my body, which is given for you, this cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." This verse and the other ones just mentioned, indicate that the blood is for man rather than for God.

Since the Holy Spirit is the "parakletos" and Jesus is the "parakletos" with the Father, that means they are together, the triune God in perfect harmony coming to us to advocate, strengthen, console, comfort and help by transmitting to us by the Spirit the Father's love freely given in the grace of Christ. There is no courtroom scene here with one member of the trinity convicing another member not to be angry. There is only togetherness and singleness of purpose with Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, insuring that the work which He began, He will finish. "For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). The believer may rest comfortably in the knowledge that "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). And finally, we take our stand in the sure knowledge that "If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31).

Stay tuned for future serious, seminal samplings.

John Gavazzoni

Here's the link to his website: http://greater-emmanuel.org./jg/jgindex.html

It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline 97531

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 2280
  • Gender: Male
  • Truth is Freedom
    • Father's Love Forum
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2007, 07:23:11 PM »
Good Post Floyd

All Ok up to the part of

Quote
Since the Holy Spirit is the "parakletos" and Jesus is the "parakletos" with the Father, that means they are together, the triune God in perfect harmony coming to us to advocate, strengthen, console, comfort and help by transmitting to us by the Spirit the Father's love freely given in the grace of Christ. There is no courtroom scene here with one member of the trinity convincing another member not to be angry.

Apart from that, a good article.  But I suppose it does no harm as 99% of Christendom believe in the trinity.

Blessings

As far as "Father's heart", I was exposed to this and was the first time I heard any sensible teaching in the church.  So true that the whole purpose of Jesus is the Father reaching down to us as opposed to us reaching out to Him. 

Reconciliation is God's plan not man's plan.

Just curious, how do they having gone the direction of Father's love view hell?
My Blog       Father's Love Forum - New
IHWLAMAHOB
Christian Milkshake: Pressed down, shaken together and more than we can hope for

Offline AbbasChild

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Father Judges No One
    • Abba's Child
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2007, 07:51:39 PM »
Those Fatherheart Ministries I am aware of don't ever mention hell. So it could be that they either just want to focus on Father's Love or they are indeed believers in Universal Salvation. In the last case the most keep it properbly secret. However, the more one meditates on His Love, I think one will question the concept of an everlasting hell. When one Fatherheart minister prayed for me some time ago I experienced Father's Love for all creation in a real way. After that I loved everybody for about two or three days until I got back to my human lovelevel. That was about 5 years ago and shortly after that I found out about Universal Salvation. Before I finish this, let me say that John Gavazzonie doesn't have a traditional view on the Nature of Deity, even though he used the word trinitarian. When you follow the link above and search for the article "The Mystery Of Deity" you'll find out what I mean, even though it doesn't really matter because no one has got everything right isn't it?
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline studier

  • Restricted
  • *
  • Posts: 1805
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2007, 09:06:47 PM »
sometimes I think ET confuses God training and correcting his children so they will be full grown with God torturing his children in the basement forever for not doing their chores. I've seen a lot of arguments saying "Well, he gave them plenty of chances to repent", but come on, in the scheme of forever our lifetime on earth wouldn't even amount to a second when compared to forever, thats not much time really when you throw in all of the obstacles here into the equation.

I agree.

Repent is change your mind. If you confess your repentance, you are saying you at one time believed one thing, but now believe another. That is what REPENTANCE means. So if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, hoping for different results, when you notice no change, there will be repentance; some people are just more stubborn than others to accept that they were wrong. Does that change the fact the situation remains constant regardless of our thoughts towards it? Do I think, therefore I am?

There is a door in the hallway, and this door leads to a room full of treasure. You walk by this door all the time. You were always taught that it was a sewage pipe, and told never to walk through that door but ignore it as a child. As you grew up, the treasure behind the door still remained, so did the door, but you now don't even realize there is a door in the hallway.

Any time someone talks about that door, you say, "What door? Oh, yea, it leads to a sewage pipe, no need to go in there."

Ant time someone says, "Hey I was told there was treasure behind this door."

You have a choice to repent, change your mind and believe there is a treasure behind that door or remain believing it leads to a sewage pipe.

If you don't repent, you stop them and warn them, "No! That is a sewage pipe, if you open that door, it will be very stinky in this house!" And you make sure not to open that door.

Does subjectivity of perception change the objectivity of reality? No. There was still a door that led to treasure.

Not until one day that door is opened, will that you finally come to repentance, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, "What! That door led to treasure! What was I believing all this time?"

So you can repent now, blessed are those who believe and not seen. Or you can repent later, you see and now believe.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 09:10:49 PM by Craig »

laren

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2007, 09:46:32 PM »

So you can repent now, blessed are those who believe and not seen. Or you can repent later, you see and now believe.

For both, the door needs to be opened. 

For those who believe and have not seen, it is reward, a reward confirming they built upon the ROCK.  Confirmation of the belief.

For the non believing, it is their death, that leads to life. 

Both works of the cross. 

Thanks Craig, I like that example.

Offline AbbasChild

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Father Judges No One
    • Abba's Child
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2007, 08:19:01 PM »
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

julzabro2

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2007, 12:01:07 AM »
the problem with the church mentioned in the OP is one that was touched upon in another disc. board I was on. We were discussing Faith without Love.

There can be faith without love but will it stand?

THIS, imho, is where so many churches have missed the mark. They preach and profess faith and sometimes try to do a sermon or two on love but they don't truly HAVE love. Now, I'm not saying that everyone who goes to church is incapable of love but what I mean is the love for ALL people that Jesus preaches of. Most, mistakenly, think they have to love only their fellow brethren and many fundy, conservative Christian types have actually seperated from their own familes because they don't go to church as they do....deciding that even their own families are heathens!

And, truly, those who go to church...many times...go out of guilt/shame/self loathing or for show thus demonstrating a lack of understanding on God's IMpartiality and grace!

samsue1230

  • Guest
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2007, 07:23:27 AM »
Hello Floyd,
               Just like to thank you for the brilliant post on the Power of Love site by John R Gavazzon  & the e -mail address you placed at the bottom [ http://greater-emmanuel.org.]
Sorry I did not get back to you earlier as I have been busy reading Hope for all Generations & Nations by Gary Amirault [95 pages] in the Spiritual Insight section. Absolute amazing reading.   
                     Yours In Christ.
                            Sue.
 

Offline AbbasChild

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 395
  • Gender: Male
  • Father Judges No One
    • Abba's Child
Re: The Power of Love
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2007, 11:22:57 AM »
Hi Sue,
glad you liked the link. I've read Gary's book about a year ago and also loved it.
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth