The Pharisee, Publican and Apostle James

[Seth]

I opened this topic to talk about this following parable and how it relates to some words James says about how to be justified:

Luke 18:10-14
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

In Orthodox Christianity this parable is upheld as an example of an unbeliever being justified by faith without works, as opposed to the Pharisee who did works of the law. But, is it really? Notice that both men begin with a belief in God, for they both went up to the temple with the intent to pray, to speak to him. Yet, for all this belief, only one walks away from the temple justified.

It's interesting that Jesus says "those who exalteth himself shall be abased and he that humbleth himself shall be exaulted." That's the point of the parable, yet those are works. Exalting yourself is as much of a work as humbling yourself, both being possible life-apporaches in a believer.

The Pharisee boasted about all his works of the Law, without realizing that boasting is also a work, one that exposed his internal attitude, unrepentant pride. This, and not lack of belief is what kept the Pharisee from being justified. Again, both men believed in God, but let's compare their works:

Pharisee: boasted, accused the publican
Publican: lowered his eyes, pounded his chest, admitted his sin, asked for mercy

So the publican went home justified not because he believed in God only, but because he believed in God and he was humble, and he demonstrated his humility through what he did in his actions. In other words, for the publican, his ATTITUDE resulted in WORKS which followed his BELIEF and all these combined resulted in justification.

So if we switch over to James 2, notice that when James talks about works, he does not mention "tithing" or "fasting twice in the week." James seems to view works the same way as the above parable:

James 2:14-21
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

—————

The works that James mentions here regarding Abraham have nothing to do with the Law. Moses did not tell Abraham to offer Isaac on the altar. The Law wasn't even written down on parchments and stone tablets yet, and even when it was, it didn't tell Abraham to offer Isaac. They were both long dead by then.

James is talking about obedience through faith working through love, as much as Christ was in the above parable. Everyone who believes in Christ is justified by faith but not by faith ALONE. Justification is the result of obedience created by walking in faith.

The whole point of the Gospel is salvation from sin. James is asking us, if you have faith but still boast and accuse others (like the Pharisee) then how is it that faith has saved you from those things? It seems to me, his point is that faith alone cannot save anyone from sin. Only obedience can.

Faith resulting in a changed attitude = salvation from sin.

[joyfilledforgivensinner]

Hi Seth:  I've been challenged to look again at the whole issue of faith without works... some Scriptures that I am again pondering re:  work, faith, sin, obedience, salvation--  (from Amplified version)

John 3:16
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever BELIEVES in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have ETERNAL LIFE.


John 1:29
...John saw Jesus coming to him and said, Look! There is the Lamb of God, Who takes away the SIN of the world.


John 16:8-9
And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about SIN and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:

About SIN, because they do NOT BELIEVE in Me (trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me);



John 6:27-29

Stop toiling and doing and producing for the food that perishes and decomposes [in the using], but strive and WORK and produce rather for the [lasting] food which endures [continually] unto life eternal; ...

They then said, "What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be WORKing the WORKS of God?  [What are we to do to carry out what God requires?]

Jesus replied, This is the WORK (service) that God asks of you: that you BELIEVE in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have FAITH in His Messenger].


====
Abraham believed God and was counted righteous


===================

In the King James Version:

In Eph 2:2; Eph 5:6; and Col 3:6 the Greek word: apeitheis  Strongs 543
is translated "DISOBEDIENCE"

In Heb 4:6, 11; Rom 11:30, 32 the same Greek word is translated "unbelief"

[Seth]

It can be difficult to understand, seeing as how this single subject is responsible for the division of the Catholic Church and the Protestant, and has been haggled over endlessly in theology for over a thousand years. So, yeah. This is definitely heady stuff. Just to address a scripture you mentioned.

John 3:16
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever BELIEVES in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have ETERNAL LIFE.

This actually gets to the definition of LIFE in the first place. I would submit to you that life is to be free from the carnal mind (which naturally results in spiritual life). Consider these two scriptures:

Romans
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 John 3
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life (aionios zoe) abiding in him.

Jesus Christ said "I am the way the truth and the LIFE." So the Gospel is not just about BELIEVING. It's also about RECEIVING. When we believe, we receive Jesus Christ, the LIFE, the deliverance from hating our brothers, the deliverance from our old mind, into the mind of Christ. This is the aionios zoe (the life of the age).

This is what the publican symbolizes in Christ's parable, a changed heart as as a result of - not just believing - but receiving the Life of Christ unto salvation from sin. James is saying that if works do not follow as a result of your faith, if we turn away a brother who is hungry and cold and say be filled and warm, then how can we say that BELIEF has resulted in LIFE? And if it hasn't resulted in life, then what's the point of faith. Faith then becomes useless and dead.

That is why James says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. He's not talking about circumcision, or tithing, or paying indulgences or all that other stuff. He is talking about the fruit of love. A man is not justified who has belief but hates his brother. And if he loves his brother, he will show it.

[Seth]

Here is a discussion on this forum that I opened about the Hebrew meaning of faith which has to do with how the Jewish understanding of faith was not simply a matter of the mental exercise of belief. They viewed faith as a matter of faithfulness. When we read that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, the Jewish people naturally equated that faith with the fact that Abraham offered his son to Isaac. They were inseparable. Apostle Paul's point with Abraham was that Abraham was not following the letter to obey God, he was following faith.

In Romans 4, Paul calls it "walking in the steps of faith of our father Abraham." That actually implies works inclusive. WALKING is a work.

[joyfilledforgivensinner]

Abraham believed God ... so he obeyed Him by getting ready to offer up Isaac...
looks like "faith plus work (obedience in action)"  ...

[Seth]

Yes, that is what "enumah" is all about. Obedience because of faith, not obedience to letters on parchments and tablets.

[Graph1159]

Hi Seth,
I'm wondering what you think about something. If faith really means obedience, how much obedience is required to have assurance of salvation? I think that if somebody mentally acknowledges Christ as their Savior, they will naturally have some degree of obedience in their life. But apparently there are many Christians for whom that degree of obedience seems rather small, raising the question of whether that degree of obedience counts.

But it seems that as soon as we start talking about degrees and required levels, grace could be nullified because we reached a certain level of obedience, and it seems we could boast about that. I think that everyone who really understands what Christ did to save them will try to be kind in their interactions (at least when they're thinking straight and not in an irrational rage) . But obviously there are some who put more effort into good deeds than others. Although at first it seems easy to draw a sharp contrast between works of law (animal sacrifices, circumcision etc.) and deeds of love, the line seems to get a lot fuzzier if a certain degree of good deeds is needed.

What I find very significant is that James's example of a dead faith says nothing about what Christ did to save us. All it says is, "I believe in one God." That includes Islam. There are a lot of people who claim to believe in a single god of some sort, but really don't seem to care anything about Biblical obedience. On the other hand, I think that firm belief in what Christ has done for us does cause something in our attitudes to change, although for some that change doesn't appear very strong, leading to the questions mentioned earlier.

[Seth]

Hi Seth,
I'm wondering what you think about something. If faith really means obedience, how much obedience is required to have assurance of salvation?

It depends on what you think about salvation. Let me put James 2 in context with James 1

James 1
21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

James is talking about the "word implanted" which is able to save your souls....from all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness. So the assurance of salvation from those things is to look at our lives and ask whether or not one has "put aside all filthiness." You aren't saved from filthiness unless you have obeyed Christ and put it aside.

So in chapter 2, James is continuing this thought. Does faith alone save you from the wickedness of sending a brother off without food or clothing when he is hungry and cold? No, and so faith becomes useless in its purpose to save you from wickedness if you do wicked things. The purpose of faith is in the knowledge of Christ, and the knowledge of Christ is in the receiving of the Spirit and walking in accordance.

I think that if somebody mentally acknowledges Christ as their Savior, they will naturally have some degree of obedience in their life. But apparently there are many Christians for whom that degree of obedience seems rather small, raising the question of whether that degree of obedience counts.

That reminds me of this scripture:

Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ye that "work iniquity." Yet they had belief, obviously, since they said "Lord, Lord" and pointed to their works. Yet the Pharisee did the same thing. "I tithe" and "fast twice a week." Great, but he also BOASTED and ACCUSED the publican. He still had pride. "Away from me, ye who work iniquity."

But it seems that as soon as we start talking about degrees and required levels, grace could be nullified because we reached a certain level of obedience, and it seems we could boast about that.

We can't nullify grace because grace is what causes us to reach that level of obedience. Here is what I mean:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us (paiduo - chastening us)  that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Grace chastens us to be obedient. Despise thou not the chastening of the Lord. The Law does not chasten us to good works. That's why it was weak through the flesh. GOD chastens us himself through his grace accessed by faith to good works.

What I find very significant is that James's example of a dead faith says nothing about what Christ did to save us. All it says is, "I believe in one God." That includes Islam.

In James 1, I see that he absolutely does talk about what Christ does to save us. Christ is the "word implanted" in us which is "able to save us" from all that "remains of wickedness" in our lives. He was speaking directly to the church, Christians. He was speaking to people who say "Lord, Lord" and he is telling them not to "work iniquity" or their faith is dead.

[joyfilledforgivensinner]

As I was rereading the most recent posts, I was really blessed by how lastpost prayed in the "Faith in prayer?" thread...

looks like "faith plus work (prayer=obedience to Christ's 'watch and pray' command)

from lastpost's prayer

"May we always remember Your words Lord, and that this is an immovable truth:  As our faith, so shall it be with us; and when we are in our right Home we will find there, stored as treasures, our acts of faith, which indeed show love for You, O Christ."

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[Graph1159]

Ye that "work iniquity." Yet they had belief, obviously, since they said "Lord, Lord" and pointed to their works. Yet the Pharisee did the same thing. "I tithe" and "fast twice a week." Great, but he also BOASTED and ACCUSED the publican. He still had pride. "Away from me, ye who work iniquity."

But it seems that as soon as we start talking about degrees and required levels, grace could be nullified because we reached a certain level of obedience, and it seems we could boast about that.

We can't nullify grace because grace is what causes us to reach that level of obedience. Here is what I mean:

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us (paiduo - chastening us)  that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Thank you for your reply. Do you think that pride is what actually keeps people from experiencing the grace that leads to obedience? In other words, if people claim to be saved because they have faith and think that their faith alone (or any particular works they've done) make them worthy of salvation, is that why grace does not produce a living, obedient faith in them?

On the other hand, if people realize that their mental faith is not enough, and that they can't follow God on their own, is that the point where they can trust Christ to save them from their sins so that grace comes in and starts bringing true faith and obedience into their life?

[Seth]

I'm not sure about the term "worthy for salvation" as it reminds me of the doctrine of hell, as in Christ's work on the cross makes us worthy to be saved from hell. I'm not saying you believe that way, but the terminology suggest that the purpose of salvation is to be made worthy h be saved from some sort of future punishment.

We've always been living in the first punishment mentioned in the Bible. Adam brought death into the world and death by sin. To be carnally minded is death. That's the real judgment we need salvation from, the wrath of God resulting in expulsion, and death by sin resulted for everyone.

"For we were alienated from God in our minds through wicked works." The solution is to be rid of the wicked works and return from that alienation, return to the garden. If we remain stubborn he will return us to our judgment as with the Prodigal Son to be humbled in the destruction of our pride. That is why I believe he will say "away from me ye who work iniquity."

I focus more on "needing salvation." If we need salvation it shows that we are not worthy, but God saves us from the carnal mind through grace. If we say we are saved but reveal slavery to the carnal mind through continued iniquity, then what was the point of faith? I think as long as we have this flesh, we are in need of salvation from its temptations. That's why I believe Paul said that those who endure to the end shall be saved. Salvation is the process of continually being cleansed of the carnal mind up until the point that the flesh is gone forever.

[sheila]

  I see the promised 'seed' as the mind f Christ/spiritual man from above[sown in corruption[carnal man's mind]

   free gift[to you a son is given]  good news for all people.  surely the promised seed is a Blessing of the womb of the dawn

  for those dwelling in great darkness[carnality]  the gates of hell shall not prevail against it..if I make my bed in hell,thou art there.

  and if I be lifted up,I shall draw all men

[Graph1159]

I'm not sure about the term "worthy for salvation" as it reminds me of the doctrine of hell, as in Christ's work on the cross makes us worthy to be saved from hell. I'm not saying you believe that way, but the terminology suggest that the purpose of salvation is to be made worthy h be saved from some sort of future punishment.

No, I didn't mean that we could actually be worthy of salvation. I was referring to people who think they are worthy on some basis (whether it's faith alone or certain acts).
I was wondering if the problem with the "faith alone" doctrine is that it leads people to think that a mental assertion is something (and the only thing) that they contribute to their salvation. But in reality, even that faith in the Gospel is something that God had to give them. But if people could humble themselves and realize that even their faith is a working of God then grace would go beyond just enabling them to accept some facts; they could experience God bringing them into actual obedience.

Does this describe what you believe?

[Seth]

But if people could humble themselves and realize that even their faith is a working of God then grace would go beyond just enabling them to accept some facts; they could experience God bringing them into actual obedience.

Does this describe what you believe?

It does describe part of what I believe. I do believe the scriptures say that even the faith in God is given to man, so that everything is a matter of God's sovereign choice. It's like the Romans 8:29-30 passage says: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

So, it's all of God. Who he predestined he will protect from wickedness and will not allow them to be sifted by the Devil. I think God's wisdom is revealed in that he has not given us perfect foreknowledge of those he predestined. Is it you? Is it me? We don't know. And that mystery is what causes the Body to work together in edification and encouragement to finish the race.

But I will say that without "bringing them into actual obedience" salvation from sin is not possible. Faith alone cannot save anyone from slavery to sin. The slave must WALK out of Egypt, not simply believe in God and stay in Egypt. We must WALK to the promised land.

I was wondering if the problem with the "faith alone" doctrine is that it leads people to think that a mental assertion is something (and the only thing) that they contribute to their salvation.

I think there are several problems with the "faith alone" doctrine but I think you hit on one of them. I think the "faith alone" doctrine was a way for Martin Luther and John Calvin interpreted into Protestant theology to get away from all the various Catholic pressures regarding.....HELL. Selling indulgences, Hail Mary's, infant baptism, these were all works designed to keep people from going to Hell, and so Luther and Calvin came along to say, "faith alone" to keep it simple and deal with the fear of incorporating works salvation with that mythical Hell.

I believe that when they misunderstood salvation as being from Hell, it messes everything up with regard to works, faith and salvation. When the matter becomes about salvation from SIN, and "putting aside filthiness" and "what remains of wickedness," well then I believe that clears everything up with regard to salvation and works.

Tithing won't save you from all that remains of wickedness. But love will. When Paul said that we are justified by faith, he didn't say, faith alone. It's like if I tell you that a house is built with hammer and nails, doesn't mean hammer and nails ALONE. It means that hammer and nails are functional in the process. So when James says a man is justified by works and NOT faith alone, we can harmonize those scriptures by understanding that James was not talking about "works of the Law." He was talking about works according to walking in the Spirit, not in the Letter.

[Seth]

Can you imagine if the Israelites had ignored God's call to leave Egypt and stayed there, continuing to be whipped and forced to labor, and then said "God saved us from the Egyptians by faith alone?" This is what I equate to that doctrine. It doesn't make much sense to me.

[josh]

yes faith did it
but god would not allow faith to work
until  i think some 400 prophesied years was completed

[Seth]

Yes, faith did it, but not faith alone. That's why faith had to work.

[josh]

seth did you get the point
that no amount of faith would have freed them
before the prophesied time  of i think 400 some years...

in patience one possesses one's soul

[Seth]

Yes, I understand your point. My only point is that, regardless of the prophesied time, faith ALONE never saved the Israelites. What saved them is belief in God and WALKING out of Egypt.