Author Topic: The LAW!  (Read 19331 times)

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Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #100 on: March 11, 2009, 06:59:16 AM »
I don't honestly know what to think.  I wonder a lot about who Adam really was.  Who is the one who subjected the creation to frustration/vanity?   Adam made that decision, didn't he?  He was not deceived.

Or was it the LORD God?  Or was it both?

hmmm.


Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2009, 07:01:51 AM »
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.

Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #102 on: March 11, 2009, 07:02:34 AM »
Quote
Rom 1:24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

These verses do not really apply to Adam, because even outside the garden, YHWH is there with them and they are performing sacrifice to the LORD.

Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #103 on: March 11, 2009, 07:03:34 AM »
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
No.  He is the image of the one who is to come--Yah's salvation--Y'shuah.

He is the son of God.


Adam....., who is the figure of him that was to come.

--Rom 5
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 07:07:34 AM by Molly »

Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2009, 07:34:17 AM »
hmmm, all interesting; so much i don't get re: this

here's some thots

John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar (?? not deceived) and the father of it.


Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It was Adam that brought death (through murder??) unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.


????

Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2009, 07:50:07 AM »
Ez 28

8 They will cause you to go down to the Pit, and you shall die the deaths of the slain in the heart of the seas.

9 Saying, do you say, I am of the gods before him who strikes you? But you are a man, and not God, in the hands of him who pierces you.

11 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,

12 Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord Jehovah: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You have been in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering; the ruby, the topaz, and the jasper, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes in you. In the day you were created, they were prepared.

14 You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy heights of God, where you were. You walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, until iniquity was found in you.

16 By the multitude of your trade, they filled your midst with violence, and you sinned. So I cast you defiled from the height of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from among the stones of fire.

17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground.



Is 14

12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, [And] consider you, [saying:] '[Is] this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,


John 8:44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and [does not] stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources,] for he is a liar and the father of it.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Adam the murderer??

Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2009, 08:05:13 AM »
Quote
It was Adam that brought death (through murder??) unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.


????

Adam didn't lie.  The serpent lied.  Thus, it was the serpent who lied in order to commit murder, not Adam.

Adam was the one murdered.

Offline Doc

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2009, 09:37:07 AM »
I'm also interested in that, too Paul.

I would also like to hear your thoughts from a post above as to why it would say in Romans 1:20 that we are without excuse, While Jesus said we know not what we do. I'm not challenging that position, just having trouble wrapping my head around it; maybe your explanation will help me see it clearly...

I'm sorry Doc, but I'm not going to be starting any new threads.  I'm going to comment more to existing threads instead of starting new ones at least for now. 

Paul



That's Ok, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the Romans passage.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2009, 03:05:54 PM »
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.

 :thumbsup:

DaughterofDavid

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2009, 04:32:40 PM »
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.
No.  He is the image of the one who is to come--Yah's salvation--Y'shuah.

He is the son of God.


Adam....., who is the figure of him that was to come.

--Rom 5

Quote
It was Adam that brought death (through murder??) unto all from the beginning when he ate the fruit.


????

Adam didn't lie.  The serpent lied.  Thus, it was the serpent who lied in order to commit murder, not Adam.

Adam was the one murdered.

Hi Molly,

I like what you have posted and I agree with you.

This topic is a very deep and interesting topic....and at the same time I feel that one needs to walk VERY SOFTLY when speaking of Adam for one does not want to be a participator of 'Lashon-Hara'...hebrew for 'evil tongue'....

" But I would remind you that even the archangel Michael when he was contending with the devil in the dispute over the body of Moses did not dare to condemn him with mockery. He simply said, the Lord rebuke you!" (Jude9)

Of course it is fine to ask questions and ponder on these things for I truly believe that the Lord is bringing His sons step by step into having ONE MIND on all things...I just also know that we are not to slander our brethren...

I have 2 thoughts that no one has brought up as to why Adam wasn't deceived ....Spirit/Soul were ONE...and the first time Eve was ever asked a question was by the Serpent....and instead of going to Spirit to get the answer she turned inward to her mind and brought forth the answer (the soulish mind) and as Adam watched HIS BELOVED BRIDE do this act it was then that He too went along with her...for he did not want to be seperated from her.

The dietary laws teach that we are only to eat the fruit of the earth that has the SEED within it...
"And God said—Lo! I have given to you—every herb yielding seed which is on the face of all the land, and every tree wherein is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,—to you, shall it be, for food;" (Gen. 1:29).

So, I share all of this to suggest that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a TREE WITHOUT SEED....and this was the VEHICLE (the Host so to speak) that the serpent used to BE THE SEED that would be eaten/ingested and in so doing would defile/contaminate the first Adam and all those that would come forth from Adam.

Be blessed,
DaughterofDavid






Offline Nathan

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2009, 05:01:47 PM »
I often wonder if the reason Adam wasn't deceived, was because he was the deceiver.

 :thumbsup:

Adam the deciever?  Then why was the serpent judged by God for decieving Eve???  Adam, for me, didn't decieve anyone . . . he wasn't decieved either . . .but he disobeyed.  What he did was a choice.  Spirit is not decieved by anyone.  Nor can a spirit decieve a spirit.  But the mind can be deceived by the spirit easily . . .when the mind is being led by it's own carnality.  Because a carnal mind just doesn't have the capacity to comprehend spiritual reality .. . until it's renewed by the Spirit.  And even then, we must be vigilant in growing and maturing in the spirit, by keeping our minds in submission to the spiritual truth. 

Offline sheila

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #111 on: March 11, 2009, 05:29:45 PM »

  DOD really liked your post. Would like to add my thoughts

  that even the LAW was given to condemn this same 'evil' seed

  that was sown in the 'earth'. And that from the very outset..

  this same 'evil' seed of the serpent is none other than the

   serpents seed sown in the man of sin/sinner man

which is a 'vehicle' or"  host" of such seed.

 And the promised seed the family of Adam

 longed and awaited for..is the 'seed' of God..even the

 annointed One who would crush the serpents head..destroying

 the mind and body manifest of this seed that is at enmity with

 God And that such 'promised' seed is the seed of eternal life

 and of the Family of God..and is the tree of life's seed

   And this same seed of life is full of grace and came to save

 life and deliver mankind from death,and to heal and restore

 the family of Adam from the effects of the death bringing seed

 of the serpent. And it will shortly crush such seed of the serpent

 under it's heel

  Matthew 25;32 All the nations will be gathered before Him and

  he will seperate the people one from another as a shepherd

 seperates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on

 his right and the goats on his left.-v46

  Matthew 13;24  The parable of the weeds....

  but while everyone was sleeping,his enemy came and sowed

 weeds among the wheat..When the wheat sprouted and formed

 heads,then the weeds also appeared......

  Both of these parables signify the ongoing enmity of the seed

of the Holy one and the seed of the serpent...and the outcome

 of the matter

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #112 on: March 11, 2009, 05:55:03 PM »


Here is a perspective I have of the law and why Jesus was so harsh on the pharasees.

We can make such a big deal out of the law to the point the LAW even, becomes our God and our refuge.

And perhaps love never fails because Gods grace is an inherant factor of who he is.

The verse no love is greater than to lay your life down for a friend.   

Why wouldn't it say, no greater love than to keep the law of God.  Or why doesn't it say no greater love than to lay down your life for christ or for God.


Adam didn't care about the letter of the law, he laid his life down for a friend.

Could it be that one path that one must take to perfection is to disobey the law out of love.  Is the law in place so God can punish is, or is the law in place to force us to make a hard choice?


Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #113 on: March 11, 2009, 06:10:19 PM »
Quote
Adam didn't care about the letter of the law, he laid his life down for a friend.

Could it be that one path that one must take to perfection is to disobey the law out of love.

wow.  This is one example of how Adam was the figure of the one who is to come.  He laid down his life for a friend.

...the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Offline Nathan

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #114 on: March 11, 2009, 06:16:46 PM »
Great perspective . . . and I agree . . .Adam didn't fall . . .he jumped . . .or . .in your words . . . he didn't fall, he laid down.  Either way, it fits into place much better than the idea that because of Adam's choice . . .God had to come up with a plan "b".  There never was a plan "b" . . .it's always been plan "A" and will never change.  For me to recieve salvation, I must first sin . . .for Christ to manifest as the savior, man had to disobey and reverse the order . . .it's always been about Christ, not about the fall of man . . .nor even about the redemption of man . . .the redemption is only part of who Christ is.

DaughterofDavid

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #115 on: March 11, 2009, 06:26:54 PM »
YES Sheila....wheww.....love this that you wrote....

"And that from the very outset..

  this same 'evil' seed of the serpent is none other than the

   serpents seed sown in the man of sin/sinner man

which is a 'vehicle' or"  host" of such seed.

 And the promised seed the family of Adam

 longed and awaited for..is the 'seed' of God..even the

 annointed One who would crush the serpents head..destroying

 the mind and body manifest of this seed that is at enmity with

 God And that such 'promised' seed is the seed of eternal life

 and of the Family of God..and is the tree of life's seed
.
****************

I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.

This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.

Be blessed!
DoD

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2009, 06:33:33 PM »
 :cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words.  :thumbsup:  Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2009, 06:36:02 PM »
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.

This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.

Be blessed!
DoD


so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved??  Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??



Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #118 on: March 11, 2009, 06:37:24 PM »
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words.  :thumbsup:  Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....

He never woke up,

he "died in his sins"


but those who believe will never die. 


hmmm,


Offline Nathan

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #119 on: March 11, 2009, 06:42:31 PM »
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.

This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.

Be blessed!
DoD


so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved??  Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??




Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced.  Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve.  When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived.  When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .

DaughterofDavid

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #120 on: March 11, 2009, 06:43:03 PM »
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words.  :thumbsup:  Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal!

I have pondered on that much....for Genesis never mentions that Adam woke up....but then goes right into one making it seem like Adam was awake.....

" 2:21 So Yahweh God caused a deep sleep to fall on the man, and he slept,—and he took one of his ribs, and closed up flesh instead thereof.
Gen 2:22 And Yahweh God builded the rib which he had taken from the man, into a woman, and brought her in unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And the man said, This, one, now, is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh! This, one shall be called Woman, for, out of a man, hath this one been taken.
Gen 2:24 For this cause, will a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both of them naked, the man and his wife,—and put not each other to shame."
********

A man will leave Father/Mother (Yahweh/El Shaddai).....and cleave unto his wife (soul)....and will become ONE FLESH....

Can you share with me what you see....?? For I have wondered about this for some time...thank you my sister!

DoD


Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2009, 06:50:19 PM »
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.

This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.

Be blessed!
DoD


so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved??  Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??




Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced.  Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve.  When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived.  When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .

but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved?  when he let his mind lead him?? 

DaughterofDavid

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2009, 06:53:31 PM »
:cloud9: DOD and Sheila, good words.  :thumbsup:  Just wanted to add the reason Adam got "tagged" too had to do with the fact he was still asleep. Matt. 13 says the enemy came while they were still asleep. God put Adam to sleep but He never woke him up. Blessings....
***********

I am starting to see....WOWOW....even after what I last posted as I was meditating on it...it's as if FIREWORKS of REVELATION are going off....Praise you Father!!

I am just so blessed!

Love you, :HeartThrob:
Dod

Offline Nathan

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2009, 07:01:06 PM »
I see it that way too....THE 2 SEEDS....one bringing forth death (spirit, soul, and body) and the other LIFE...full redemption in Spirit,Soul, Body.

This is why we must pick up our cross so that we die to the OLD ADAM....of the earth, earthy....so that the SECOND ADAM can come forth....and overcome evil with good.

Be blessed!
DoD


so if we die to the OLD ADAM, you are saying that we never were decieved??  Since Adam wasn't deceived, we were never decieved too, and we must die to that "never deceived part of us"??




Great questions Zeek . . .
For me, I'd say that like Adam, our spirits are not deceived . . .but when Adam "received" the fruit from Eve . .that is where the order was displaced.  Adam's sin was two-fold, he disobeyed the Father, and he submitted to Eve.  When I allow my mind to lead me, I can be/am deceived.  When I choose spirit over flesh, then no, deception doesn't happen because we're walking in discernment . . .

but aren't you implying then that Adam was decieved?  when he let his mind lead him?? 

It depends on what your identity is . . .if your identity is led by your mind, then yes "You" (soul, spirit, body) can be decieved . . .but if you're identity is led by your spirit, then no, "you" (spirit, soul, body) can not be decieved.

Offline sheila

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2009, 07:03:37 PM »
  there is no LAW against love..especially 'perfect' love

  it will bear the punishment for the proposed offense

  imputed to it for it's selfless act of mercy in offering

 forgiveness to the true offender.

   Just as Christ bore our sins...and just as Our Father in heaven

 has been made to serve because of our sins.Truly God has

 become the servant of ALL to save us.

  Also the Holy Ghost serves us and ministers to us as a helper

  Surely they are bearing our burdens of sin for us, and

 keep putting up with us in love. Washing us of our filth,

  pouring oil and wine in our wounds, bearing the cost for our

 healing and salvation. What we are unable to do of ourselves

 they in Mercy and LOVE do for us.

   And many who follow them do many acts of loose

 conduct..and because of this the truth is  spoken of abusively.

 2Peter 2;1,2[false prophets false teachers secretly introduce

 destructive heresys;I ask was not the serpent in the garden a

false prophet with the word of God in his mouth and did he not

 secretly introduce a destructive heresy in re to God's nature and

intents toward man?and did not loose conduct/act of

disobediance follow]