Author Topic: The LAW!  (Read 20160 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2009, 06:26:36 AM »
"our Holy FORERUNNER"

I love it!   :bgdance:




10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

 12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

 13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.


--Heb 2


Offline jabcat

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2009, 06:37:37 AM »
Yep, I like it and agree...salvation the gift (Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus); 

then running a good race, fighting a good fight, and quoting you DoD, "once again it is all by His grace given".... (But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you), and  ...(God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work 2 Corinthians 9:8.)

The Lord is my strength...Ps. 28:7. 

Very good,

God's blessing, James.
.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 06:39:45 AM by jabcat »

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2009, 06:41:01 AM »
"to go on to perfection"

Yes, very interesting.  The whole MSoG discussion (don't hear much about that in the Baptist "Church"  :laughing7:) is fascinating.  Again, I started that "Works" thread, I'm "working"  :bigGrin: through this for myself, and I have honest ponderings about it...we don't attain that perfection, it's Jesus working His righteousness in us, right? 

For instance, today, could any of us say "God, you stay out of this, I'm going to work on my perfection today"?  I don't think so, don't think it would work worth a hoot, but what do you guys think?

Yes, Jebcat it is Christ working through us to put down sin in our own flesh.  This is how He saves us.  He overcomes our own flesh by His very nature in us.  Many will claim there is no more Law because we are under Grace.  But the Law remains.  Is there then Sabbath observance? - yes, because in Christ we rest from OUR works.  So by Faith we establish the Law.  

Yes, Jebcat it is a matter of perspective concerning the works.  So think about that very thing that it is Christ who saves us by His work through us.

Paul
 

Offline jabcat

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2009, 06:57:03 AM »
OK, I had just posted in the Works thread that we may be saying the same thing, just speaking a little different language...one thing that has caused me to wonder though, are your two earlier statements that "we work to access grace", and we "work to stay saved".  Even if we don't see it the same, God will lead us both into His truths; also, I don't have the final word or the complete understanding, but I do like to know what folks are really saying, and what's "underneath" what they're saying.  So forgive me if I'm having a hearing problem (AY?) but I'm trying to reconcile your last post, with the 2 statements above you made earlier.  To my understanding, they are very different things.  Not that it matters so much, but I do agree with your last post...but I don't agree that we either work to access God's saving grace, or that our works keep it. 

Ok, I've said (again) how I see it, and if you wish to move on to something else, so be it...but if you wish to clarify how those things reconcile for you, that's a good thing too. 

God is good, and He's working all according to His will.  :thumbsup:

God's blessing, James.

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2009, 07:15:02 AM »
OK, I had just posted in the Works thread that we may be saying the same thing, just speaking a little different language...one thing that has caused me to wonder though, are your two earlier statements that "we work to access grace", and we "work to stay saved".  Even if we don't see it the same, God will lead us both into His truths; also, I don't have the final word or the complete understanding, but I do like to know what folks are really saying, and what's "underneath" what they're saying.  So forgive me if I'm having a hearing problem (AY?) but I'm trying to reconcile your last post, with the 2 statements above you made earlier.  To my understanding, they are very different things.  Not that it matters so much, but I do agree with your last post...but I don't agree that we either work to access God's saving grace, or that our works keep it. 

Ok, I've said (again) how I see it, and if you wish to move on to something else, so be it...but if you wish to clarify how those things reconcile for you, that's a good thing too. 

God is good, and He's working all according to His will.  :thumbsup:

God's blessing, James.

Jebcat, I'm very fortunate to have you peer so deeply into what I'm saying.  So often I say these things, hoping to offer the Gold that Christ has given me, only to find that nobody is interested at all.  So I welcome your study of what I'm saying Jebcat.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2009, 07:30:07 AM »
[quote author=DaughterofDavid link=topic=5017.msg55019#msg55019
(for there are some within the understanding of Sonship that lean way to far towards New Age teachings and then there are others that swing to the other side with a very self righteous 'ELECT mentality'.....I prefer those that are of the Holy Ground.....the Holy Ground of HUMILITY....of understanding that Sonship is a glorious heavenly call that one can only receive by REVELATION...and once it is truly received and understood by the hearer that they have been APPREHENDED BY CHRIST....then they too will SELL ALL THAT THEY HAVE to purchase the PEARL OF GREAT PRICE.) [/quote]

 :cloud9: Thank You, Father...... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2009, 08:20:50 AM »
[
Jebcat, I'm very fortunate to have you peer so deeply into what I'm saying.  So often I say these things, hoping to offer the Gold that Christ has given me, only to find that nobody is interested at all.  So I welcome your study of what I'm saying Jebcat.

Paul

Bless you brother...I'm a little ( a lot) compulsive, and it's at this point I figure I'm being a pain in the rear rather than a blessing :bigGrin:.  Hey, I don't have it all figured out, just ask anyone here  :laughing7:...these 2 topics "Law" and "Works" are biggies for me.  I was raised in an extremely fundamental, legalistic environment, and most of my adult life has been a journey out of that...sometimes crashing and burning, sometimes taking a few steps forward...but obviously, very important issues for me as I've stumbled around in this whole area of grace and works.  I'm probably one of the worst at trying to justify myself by my flesh, "living right", worrying about so many little details about "how to please God", so I'm working through stuff as I type this...rather, God working me through it  :mblush:...

Anyway, no arguing, let's prefer each other in love, and I've been more involved in discussion these past couple of days than usual...I may just suddenly back out and let you and others work on it for awhile, we'll see where God leads.

Thanks for your kind heart.  There are those that bring with their beliefs a very difficult personality and attitude to go along with it, and you are very gracious.  Thank you.  As far as I know, none of us has yet reached perfection, but "Oh how He loves you and me"...sorry, sometimes I just break out in song.

God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 08:23:27 AM by jabcat »

pneuma

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2009, 01:58:26 PM »
Same Law

We read is 2 Corinthians that the ministration of death is to be done away with.
What! How can that which leads to Christ be done away with?
Read on.


2 Corinthians 3:6-14
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.




Luke 10:25-27
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

These commandment were known and read.

So then why does it say in another place it's a new commandment?

Answer to this question is further down in the post.

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2 John 5-6
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Answer: Because the natural man ( old man ) does not understand spiritual things.

When the Spirit of God reveals the true meaning of the law to us , it becomes new to our understanding, but the truth was always held in the law, for the law is spiritual.

John explains this when he wrote "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning."

Then he explains why the old commandment becomes new "because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth."

The commandments then have been written in our hearts.

I 'll repeat this

It's the same law, its just how we apprehend the law, for the old man it's death, for the new man it's the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

When we are in Christ all things become new.

A new heaven and earth.




Romans 8:1-4

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

I am in full agreement with this statement.

So then how does the law of the Spirit of life frees us from the law of sin and death?

We have to die to self before we are free from the law of sin and death.
Now we cannot die to self because we are weak though the flesh, or said another way, our fleshly natural life cannot die to itself.
Thus God sending His son in the likeness of sinful flesh ,and for sin ,condemned sin in the flesh.
For what purpose?
That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED in us.

This is done not of works but by faith in Jesus Christ.
We of our own selves cannot keep Gods laws, but Though faith in Christ we are able to fulfill Gods law.

Jesus Christ is our example 1Pe.2:21

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now as Jesus is our example and He fulfilled the law ,we must also fulfill the law or we do not live after our example.

Now let me make this as plain as I can so no one accuses me of trying to bring us again into bondage of the law.

It is though faith in Jesus Christ that the law can only be fulfilled, not by any works of the law we try to do. The fulfilling of Gods law is all done though faith.

The above scripture say Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Until the law though Christ is fulfilled in us by faith one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

Galatians 2:15-21
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This passage of scripture is speaking of trying to be justified by the works of the law, this we cannot do. Our justification come only though faith in Jesus Christ. For if righteousness cometh by the works ( for it is works of the law these scriptures are speaking of) of the law then Christ is dead in vain. Paul explains how it is though life in Christ that he liveth. Therefore it is Christ that liveth in us and not of ourselves that Gods law is fulfilled. For Jesus Christ fulfilled Gods law in His person and He will fulfill it in ours also.

This is explained further in

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The end of the law is the fulfillment of it for Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.

When the law is fulfilled in us though Jesus Christ the law has no more hold on us for we have become dead to it but alive onto Christ.

This is worth repeating here:

And it is by fulfilling the law that the law no longer has any power over us.



Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We can see here that love is the fulfilling the law.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All Gods law hang on two principles: to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourselves.

If God law is done away with then so is the commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves for on these two commandments HANG all the law and the prophets.

if you can except it the commandments "thou shalt not" are not just commandments per say but they are also a commandment with the promise to us " thou shalt not".
Example: "thou shalt not" covet is a commandment telling us not to covet.
Now if we look at the promise side of it we see
"Thou shalt not" covet, meaning when we are in Christ we "will not covet."


1 John 3:20-24
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater
than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that KEEPETH his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If we are not keeping His commandments we are not dwelling in Him, but have again come under the law.
It is the fulfilling of the law that loosens us from the bondage of the letter of the law.

This is only done by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfills Gods law in us
.
If we are alive in Him how can we not but fulfill Gods law.

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2009, 03:06:43 PM »
Bless you brother...I'm a little ( a lot) compulsive, and it's at this point I figure I'm being a pain in the rear rather than a blessing :bigGrin:.  Hey, I don't have it all figured out, just ask anyone here  :laughing7:...these 2 topics "Law" and "Works" are biggies for me.  I was raised in an extremely fundamental, legalistic environment, and most of my adult life has been a journey out of that...sometimes crashing and burning, sometimes taking a few steps forward...but obviously, very important issues for me as I've stumbled around in this whole area of grace and works.  I'm probably one of the worst at trying to justify myself by my flesh, "living right", worrying about so many little details about "how to please God", so I'm working through stuff as I type this...rather, God working me through it  :mblush:...

Anyway, no arguing, let's prefer each other in love, and I've been more involved in discussion these past couple of days than usual...I may just suddenly back out and let you and others work on it for awhile, we'll see where God leads.

Thanks for your kind heart.  There are those that bring with their beliefs a very difficult personality and attitude to go along with it, and you are very gracious.  Thank you.  As far as I know, none of us has yet reached perfection, but "Oh how He loves you and me"...sorry, sometimes I just break out in song.

God's blessing, James.

James, please know that I love you brother and I'm blessed to have you!

Paul

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2009, 03:13:49 PM »
pneuma, that was a very nice post.   

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2009, 03:16:38 PM »
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

--Rom 10



How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?

How could they not know him?

This is such a hard concept to get your head around.

But, it's true, they didn't know him.

And, not knowing him, they made their choices out of knowledge and fear and selfishness and self interest, instead of out of love.



10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


--Heb 3

Offline Taffy

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2009, 03:27:48 PM »
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

--Rom 10



How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?

How could they not know him?

This is such a hard concept to get your head around.

But, it's true, they didn't know him.

And, not knowing him, they made their choices out of knowledge and fear and selfishness and self interest, instead of out of love.



10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)


--Heb 3


How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?

Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2009, 04:03:18 PM »
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?

Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
 :icon_flower:

I tend to agree that it was ignorance.  I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law. 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2009, 04:06:29 PM »
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?

Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
 :icon_flower:

I tend to agree that it was ignorance.  I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law. 

Paul
It's a type of idolatry, isn't it?  Looks to me like all idolatry is man worshipping himself, instead of worshipping God.

Offline Taffy

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2009, 04:17:47 PM »
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?

Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
 :icon_flower:

I tend to agree that it was ignorance.  I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law. 

Paul

 :icon_flower:

Ignorant in Not KNOWING Him iN Their Heart, oppossed to Not Knowing who HE WAS?

Do you Not think that he made Himself Know to Them many times saying that the scriptures be Fulfilled etc,IE making Himself Known, bearing witness to the teachings of JB and the sciptures

But They did Not Know  HIM In their Hearts, therefore ,ignorant believing in the Letter not HIM :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2009, 04:25:19 PM »
:icon_flower:

Ignorant in Not KNOWING Him iN Their Heart, oppossed to Not Knowing who HE WAS?

Do you Not think that he made Himself Know to Them many times saying that the scriptures be Fulfilled etc,IE making Himself Known, bearing witness to the teachings of JB and the sciptures

But They did Not Know  HIM In their Hearts, therefore ,ignorant believing in the Letter not HIM :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:

I think they thought he was a heretic.    I don't think they knew He was the Christ in their hearts or believed otherwise that He was the Christ.

Paul   

Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2009, 04:26:25 PM »
How could those who carried God's law to the world be ignorant of God's righteousness?How could they not know him?

Not Ignorant of Him Molly , just their refusal to accept Him , their righteousness came via works of the Law,( self-righteousness) Not through His Blood.
 :icon_flower:

I tend to agree that it was ignorance.  I believe they saw the letter as depicting who God is instead of what established the law. 

Paul

 :icon_flower:

Ignorant in Not KNOWING Him iN Their Heart, oppossed to Not Knowing who HE WAS?

Do you Not think that he made Himself Know to Them many times saying that the scriptures be Fulfilled etc,IE making Himself Known, bearing witness to the teachings of JB and the sciptures

But They did Not Know  HIM In their Hearts, therefore ,ignorant believing in the Letter not HIM :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:


Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

DaughterofDavid

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2009, 05:30:44 PM »
Hi Pnuema,

Thank you for all that you shared with us.

I want to share something that I have learned about the letter of the law and how when it is understood by the Spirit leads to LIFE.

As with many here, the Lord has used much in my life to teach me and bring me to where I am IN HIM today. A few years ago the Lord led my family to 'camp' for a season within the Hebraic Roots community (Messianic/Two-House)....and it was during that time that I learned about the Feasts of the Lord, the keeping of the Sabbath, the dietary laws, on and on.....

All of this was very eye-opening to me and I found it to be fascinating....b/c I had never been taught what these things were and represented within the 'church'....for I had been taught that the Law had been 'done away with'.

There are many things that I am so grateful to Father for unfolding to me through the teachings that I received from my Hebraic brethren. I learned the difference between "Hebrew thinking" and "Greek thinking".....and for many within the 'church system' the prevelant understanding of scripture comes from a 'Greek mentality'. What do I mean by 'Greek mentality' as opposed to 'Hebraic mentality'?

Hebraic thinking is circular and concrete....whereas Greek understanding is linear and abstract.

What do I mean by circular and concrete? In the Hebraic community (Messianic/Judaism/Two-House/Joseph-Ephraim & Judah...for it truly is the coat of many colors :wink3:)... one is brought up understanding that everything is cyclical....every year there is the celebrating of the Feasts...these are CONCRETE/REAL/ experiences that one will have every year that is rich with spiritual symbolism. There is also a cyclical reading of the Torah....called the Torah portions....for a portion of the Torah is read weekly by all those that are Torah observant believers throughout the earth....everyone is on the same page so to speak....for example this week the reading begins in Exodus Chapter 30 verse 11....in fact....this week is the celebration of Purim....and for me I always heighten my awareness in the Spirit when these biblical feasts/celebrations are taking place in the earth b/c I know that there is much activity in the Heavenly realm that is being played out on the earth....for these are types/shadows of the REAL.

In fact, I believe this week will be a glorious week for all those that are of Christ....for they will experience a real victory over their enemies (areas of weakness, bad habits, sin, ect...) for the conquering King will be galloping throughout their earth destroying their enemies within. Now, I also am aware that these things might take a literal form in the earth too....and could very well represent a 'Haman' that will attack a 'Mordekai/Esther"....but in the end the VICTORY IS SURE. HalleluYah! So I will be watching....watching to see what Holy Spirit puts his finger on within my life to surrender and ask for Him to overcome within me....and watching in the earth realm too to see what the Lord may allow to happen so that the end result will be to bring forth a victory over Yahweh's enemies. As we all have seen with our own eyes the very REAL toppling of the system of Babylon (economic right now...but very soon the ENTIRE system will collapse....political, judicial, religious ect.).

For me, the Hebraic understanding is a beautiful picture of HEAVEN & EARTH meeting....of learning and walking out in the earth the type/shadow so that the UNDERSTANDING of the REAL can come forth....for it was in obedience of celebrating our first Feast of Tabernacles that Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the understanding of SONSHIP! Whew....I praise you Father! As my precious little family took a step of faith and set up our tent in the backyard and for seven days camped out....the King of Glory MET with us (for truly it is HIS HOLY APPOINTMENT and He does SHOW UP to keep it... :HeartThrob:)....and REVEALED the truth of what it will be like when He dwells FULLY within His people....and from that moment on He has continued to open my eyes to deeper truths....the Salvation of ALL....the lie of eternal torment....the glorious call of being made a King-Priest....ohhhh.....what a SAVIOUR! What a LORD! I praise you Yahshua.....(clap, clap, clap!!) :dsunny: :happyclap: :ginlove:

On the other hand....'Greek mentality' is abstract and linear.....and this is what has been a 'robbing' of the understanding of many within christendom. For there has been this mentality that these Feasts have been done away with....that it only matters that you understand them inwardly (and yes this is true that we must understand inwardly and at the same time...there is a very real shoe leather walk to many things that as we do and practice these things more revelation will be unfolded to us)....the linear of A+B=C....is what has also stunted many believers from going on to the deeper truths.

Romans 11:36...."For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever, amen.".....

This one scripture alone reveals the CIRCULARITY OF YAHWEH.....and yet....those that have been raised with a linear understanding cannot SEE the truth....and therefore cannot see the revelation of Salvation for ALL....

Those that are steeped in ABSTRACT thinking ....cannot truly raise their children with the foundation of being able to see, touch, feel, the DEEPER TRUTHS of Sabbath, of Sonship, of the Salvation of all....

Our family obeys the commandment to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy....and yes we do it literally from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday....and as we gather around our table we teach our children that we do this to honor the Lord and we do this to teach them what THE REAL SABBATH LOOKS LIKE....we ask the children..."Do we work on the Sabbath?...and the children say no....(they love that they don't have to clean their rooms :bigGrin:)....then we proceed to explain that Yahshua was the DIVINE picture of what the Sabbath looked like....and that we too are being made to be JUST AS HE IS....". We give great detail on how the Lord was able to feed five thousand....He didn't need to work....He just trusted Father to provide and multiply the food for him....He could Heal....he didn't need money to go to the doctor....for He is the GREAT PHYSCIAN....whew! ....on and on....and you know what....THEY GET IT....they really are starting to understand....and these are little ones....

He cares so much about our children...this is why He speaks so profoundly through the types/shadows of the Law...and there is much in the Divine Law that instructs on how to live in the Kingdom....but that is for another thread. :bigGrin:

Be blessed Tentmaker family!!

DaughterofDavid





Offline Cardinal

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2009, 06:31:28 PM »
 :cloud9: YES, YES, YES! I have felt for many years that this was His heart for the church as we know it, that we walk out certain things in obedience; not out of an obligation to the law, but out of love for Him AND our fellow man (and children) that they need a VISIBLE witness of these things.

I have been blessed to be shown these things in the Word without ever experiencing them in shoe leather in the natural realm (though I have in the Spirit), but how much EASIER it would have been to SEE the things of God if they were a part of your natural experience.

About 15 years ago, He literally led me to go to the 5th Messianic convention. I say, literally, because this is how it happened. I was not online then, had no idea there even was such a thing, had no idea He was starting to bring in the Jews. A friend of mine, for no apparent reason, got a postcard about this event, in her mail. Thinking it junk mail, she went to pitch it, and the Lord spoke to her and told her not to, that it was for me.

Now she had no idea at that point, that the Lord had been teaching me things that I realized were intended to persuade a Jewish audience. And He was filling me with his love for them, so much so, I asked Him to lead me to some, so I could pour out His love on them, and this was TWO YEARS, before she got this card in the mail.

So the conference was only 2 weeks away, and He ended up sending 5 friends (including HER, LOL) with me. But before I went, He began to speak to me about how it was the last days because He was bringing in the Jews now, and that the church had been Helenized, had lost it's Jewishness and that He was restoring what was lost now. I had NO IDEA of any of this, except it being the last days of the last day.

The first night we got there we were late because we had to wait for one to get off work, but we made it and there was a concert the first night, by Messianic Jewish recording artists. It was contemporary music, some of it, but some was more traditional.

Now you all can believe this if you want, or not, it matters not to me, but as soon as I stood there in the midst of dancers in traditional dress hearing the music, the words of some of which were in Hebrew, I heard the Lord as loud as I have ever heard Him say,
"I'M HOME, I'M HOME, I'M HOME!" And there was the most profound crying out in my Spirit of the emotion of having been gone for SO long, walking in a strange (Gentiles) land, that I was sobbing. My friends asked me what was wrong with me, and I told them.

Now this was 13 years before I even knew I was of Jewish origin (though He tried to tell me in a dream), so there was no reason for ME to think anything like this, about ANY of it. And by the way, it was one of the most amazing weekends of our lives, He definitely met us there. Just sharing......Blessings.....
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 06:39:58 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2009, 07:35:39 PM »
/


Zeek, gave these scriptures:

Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

Is this what Eve and Adam did? In their disobediance
to God?

DaughterofDavid

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2009, 07:39:42 PM »
:cloud9: YES, YES, YES! I have felt for many years that this was His heart for the church as we know it, that we walk out certain things in obedience; not out of an obligation to the law, but out of love for Him AND our fellow man (and children) that they need a VISIBLE witness of these things.
I have been blessed to be shown these things in the Word without ever experiencing them in shoe leather in the natural realm (though I have in the Spirit), but how much EASIER it would have been to SEE the things of God if they were a part of your natural experience.
About 15 years ago, He literally led me to go to the 5th Messianic convention. I say, literally, because this is how it happened. I was not online then, had no idea there even was such a thing, had no idea He was starting to bring in the Jews. A friend of mine, for no apparent reason, got a postcard about this event, in her mail. Thinking it junk mail, she went to pitch it, and the Lord spoke to her and told her not to, that it was for me.

Now she had no idea at that point, that the Lord had been teaching me things that I realized were intended to persuade a Jewish audience. And He was filling me with his love for them, so much so, I asked Him to lead me to some, so I could pour out His love on them, and this was TWO YEARS, before she got this card in the mail.

So the conference was only 2 weeks away, and He ended up sending 5 friends (including HER, LOL) with me. But before I went, He began to speak to me about how it was the last days because He was bringing in the Jews now, and that the church had been Helenized, had lost it's Jewishness and that He was restoring what was lost now. I had NO IDEA of any of this, except it being the last days of the last day.

The first night we got there we were late because we had to wait for one to get off work, but we made it and there was a concert the first night, by Messianic Jewish recording artists. It was contemporary music, some of it, but some was more traditional.

Now you all can believe this if you want, or not, it matters not to me, but as soon as I stood there in the midst of dancers in traditional dress hearing the music, the words of some of which were in Hebrew, I heard the Lord as loud as I have ever heard Him say,
"I'M HOME, I'M HOME, I'M HOME!" And there was the most profound crying out in my Spirit of the emotion of having been gone for SO long, walking in a strange (Gentiles) land, that I was sobbing. My friends asked me what was wrong with me, and I told them.
Now this was 13 years before I even knew I was of Jewish origin (though He tried to tell me in a dream), so there was no reason for ME to think anything like this, about ANY of it. And by the way, it was one of the most amazing weekends of our lives, He definitely met us there. Just sharing......Blessings.....

WOWOW!! My sister!

What a glorious testimony...thank you so much for sharing it with us.

You are so right...how much EASIER it would have been for most of us if we had been able to SEE the things of God if they had been a part of our natural experiences.

This is what I believe too is that He is restoring back to His Holy ISRAEL people the ANCIENT PATHS (by Israel I am referring to ALL 12 tribes...for the House of Judah are those of Judah, Benjamin and some of Levi.... the House of Israel also known as House of Joseph consist of the other 10 tribes....for scripture uses the words Israel and Joseph/Ephraim interchangably and these were those that Paul ministered to.... known as the Gentiles/Greeks (same understanding)for they had lost their identity after being absorbed into the pagan culture of Assyria....however the House of Judah never lost it's identity when taken captive by Babylon but retained it....(I believe  that the 'church' is of Joseph/Ephraim and just as we see in scripture the picture of how Joseph lost his TRUE IDENTITY and looked Egyptian (had taken on many pagan customs...as the church has done through Constatine....to such an extent that His brother "Judah" did not recoginize Him)....and so Yahweh used BABY BROTHER BENJAMIN to be the vehicle to bring about reconciliation to BOTH HOUSES... Benjamin means 'SON of MY RIGHT HAND" and is the glorious picture of SONSHIP and the OVERCOMERS...The Sons within the Son....and all this speaks to the the DEEPER truth that there are overcomers WITHIN all 12 tribes that are found to be IN CHRIST).... :bigGrin:

This that I write of above is the 2 sticks BECOMING ONE....Judah and Joseph (Jews and Christians....all professing the LORDSHIP and KINGSHIP of Yahshua as Messiah).... :HeartThrob:

Eze 37:16 Thou therefore Son of man Take thee one stick, and write upon it For Judah, and for the sons of Israel his companions, Then take thou another stick, and write upon it For Joseph the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions.
Eze 37:17 Then bring them near—the one to the other —for thee into one stick,- And they shall become united in thy hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the sons of thy people speak unto thee I. saying,- Wt thou not tell us what these things are to thee?
Eze 37:19 speak unto them Thus saith My Lord Yahweh, Lo! I, myself, am going to take the stick of Joseph. which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions,— And I will place them upon it even upon the stick of Judah. And will make of them one stick, And they shall become one in my hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou shalt write shall remain in thy hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 Therefore speak thou unto them Thus, saith My Lord Yahweh, Lo! myself am going to take the sons of Israel, from among the nations whither they have gone,— And I will gather them from every side, And will bring them in upon their own so;
Eze 37:22 And will make of them one nation in the land. among the mountains of Israel, And one king, shall they all have for king, —And they shall remain no longer two nations, Nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more.


I truly believe with all my heart that this is happening right now....

I loved that you heard Him say....I am home....whewww....oh how He loves when His people dwell together in harmony....as Yahshua said..."they will know us by our love for one another."  :dsunny:

Come quickly Lord!

DaughterofDavid


Offline Cardinal

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2009, 08:15:02 PM »
(I believe  that the 'church' is of Joseph/Ephraim and just as we see in scripture the picture of how Joseph lost his TRUE IDENTITY and looked Egyptian (had taken on many pagan customs...as the church has done through Constantine....to such an extent that His brother "Judah" did not recognize Him)....and so Yahweh used BABY BROTHER BENJAMIN to be the vehicle to bring about reconciliation to BOTH HOUSES... Benjamin means 'SON of MY RIGHT HAND" and is the glorious picture of SONSHIP and the OVERCOMERS...The Sons within the Son....and all this speaks to the the DEEPER truth that there are overcomers WITHIN all 12 tribes that are found to be IN CHRIST).... :bigGrin:

This that I write of above is the 2 sticks BECOMING ONE....Judah and Joseph (Jews and Christians....all professing the LORDSHIP and KINGSHIP of Yahshua as Messiah).... :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: Amen, I know of the two house teaching. A lot of the Messianics are against it, but they don't have the understanding of the sons of God so cannot see it yet. I was shown part of this by Moses's rod swallowing up the Egyptians rods. It takes "picking up snakes" to be one of "them that believe", does it not? (smile) Good post  :thumbsup: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

pneuma

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2009, 08:47:50 PM »
DODavid and Card good post sisters, enjoyed them very much. :thumbsup:

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2009, 09:50:24 PM »
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Remember Zeek those verses are partaining to those who Knew the Truth and departed from it.  It doesn't concern those that are ignorant.  Those that were persecuting Jesus knew not what they did. 

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul

Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2009, 09:54:37 PM »
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Remember Zeek those verses are partaining to those who Knew the Truth and departed from it.  It doesn't concern those that are ignorant.  Those that were persecuting Jesus knew not what they did. 

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul

kind of like Adam who wasnt decieved, and Eve was??