Author Topic: The LAW!  (Read 18610 times)

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trettep

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The LAW!
« on: March 07, 2009, 05:04:44 AM »
I am starting this topic on the Law to discuss what it is.  What was abolished and how does it apply to our Christian lives and more.  This is a complex subject and I hope we have patience with each other and ask God to help us in understanding this topic. 

First I want to say that the Law was ordained unto Life.  What are your thought about that?

Here is the verse:

Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Paul

SpiritDriven

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 08:04:05 AM »
Mayby I am a bit Simple minded..... but I get the feeling that the Law being ordained unto life, could mean that as long as you are a Flesh and blood human being, that every single ordinance of the Law applies to you.

That the Law must not be watered down or candy coated, that the fullness of the Law must be upheld and applies to you at all times....otherwise how else are you going to see that you are hoplessly condemed to death by it.

That you will never be justified by the works of the Law, because you are already in breach of some part of it, and therfore Guilty of all....because no part of the Law has been abolished, every ordinance still stands to this day.

Jesus is our only hope....not the Law...the purpose of the Law is to bring all to the realisation that they are hoplessly condemned to death by it.....only then will they turn to Jesus, who is now their only hope.

Peace
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 08:09:15 AM by SpiritDriven »

Offline sparrow

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2009, 08:12:41 AM »
To me the law is just there because people don't yet know what love is and what it means TO LOVE.

Example:

LAW: If you are married, do not sleep with other men.

ME: I love my husband and would lay down my life for him, I love him THAT much. Of COURSE I don't need some law telling me not to sleep with other men! The thought would never even enter into my mind.

The law does not apply to me, in that, LOVE has already kicked that law to the curb. It is not needed.
I do not need a law that tells me to do something dishonorable to the one that I love.


A lot of people get really zoned in on sin. They turn sin into a god. It's true. The law becomes some sort of god to them. How foolish.

What did Jesus come here for in the first place?
To show us the way.
LOVE.

The more you love, the less NEED you have for law....
The law is here to help us see our NEED to LEARN about LOVE.
The more you love, TRULY UNSELFISHLY LOVE, the less you need someone telling you what TO DO and what NOT TO DO... it will be written on your heart.

I don't see why it has to be any more complicated than that.
But that's just me.
I know I'm still the girl on the outside peering in...
I don't know the language.
and that's ok.
I'm ok with that.

peace.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline jabcat

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2009, 08:22:56 AM »
Good topic Paul, and :goodpost: SpiritDriven and Sparrow..."For when Gentiles (nations) [not the Jews] who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts.... Romans 2:14,15.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 08:25:12 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2009, 04:27:05 PM »
Here is a major problem with the law under the Old Covenant (to be distinguished from the Law itself):

Heb 9:9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

The Israelites under the Old Covenant would have to bring sacrifices to offer for their sins. So their conscience couldn't be perfect because all they didn't escape from sin - in fact it kept them in sin.   The reason is that they could just go and perform the same sinful act again and then make an offering again to become clean again.  This would become an endless cycle.  Now consider that if they performed the sinful act that they have now got a debt to pay in the from of the sacrifice.  The sacrifice they offer is their payment for that debt.  So as you can see this is why their conscience couldn't be made perfect.

Paul
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 04:46:26 PM by trettep »

pneuma

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2009, 04:41:44 PM »
My  :2c:

The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.

When people look at the law they look at it in letter and that is why sin takes a hold and does what it does. But the law is spiritual and always has been, but people don't realise this, they only see the letter. And this is where many make their mistake, seeing in letter that which is spiritual. The law is not done away with only our understanding of the letter of the law is done away with, when we walk in the spirit we understand spiritual things, thus we now fulfill the spiritual law.

The commandment to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength is as spiritual today as it was when God first proclaimed it way back when.

We have all read how the stone was rejected, and the stone of course is Christ and many today still reject the stone wherein we find the DABAR/LOGOS of God.

If the words that are written in stone are rejected and of no further use why do so many then fulfill them when walking in the spirit?

It because they are SPIRITUAL and only those who walk in the spirit understand them.

The law is our school master to lead us to Christ, now what do the scriptures tell us about who leads us to Christ? Is it not the Holy Spirit? Is it not God?

No one can come unto Jesus unless the Father draws them.

What! is there another way one is drawn to Christ then by the Father?

So for many it would seem, for they believe the law is a letter and by that letter we are drawn to Christ and then the letter is of no further use.

But what I see is that the law is SPIRITUAL and the very LOGOS of God.
Thus the death and the drawing are all of GOD and not by any letter.

And it is NOT until people realise that the law is SPIRITUAL and not of the letter will they continue to believe that which is SPIRITUAL is destroyed.

We are not under the law as a tutor anymore because the law/LOGOS has become a part of who we are.

God bless



trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM »
My  :2c:

The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
....

Pneuma, I would say it is the opposite.  I would say it is the Spirit of the Law that works Life but that the letter is what works death.  I will expound on that in my next post.

Paul

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2009, 04:54:51 PM »
An Analogy of the Spirit vs Letter of the Law.

I want you to consider the Speed Limit.

The Spirit of the Speed Limit Law is this:

   Reduce injury and death on the highways.

The Letter of the Speed Limit Law is this:

   Obey established speed limits.


See the Spirit is what establishes the Letter - it is like the reason or intent behind the letter.  The letter becomes a shadow of it.

Now, lets see show why the letter can work error.

Consider your driving down the highway and a wheel has come loose from a truck.  That wheel is hurling towards you and unless you speed up and break the "established speed limit" (letter) then you are going to risk injury or death.  So you speed up and break the limit.  You are pulled over by the Police for breaking the established speed limit (letter).  This Police offer is acting as a Pharisee in this analogy.  He is giving a ticket for the breaking of the letter of the Law.  But what you have really done was to comply with the Spirit of the Law.  You have reduced injury and death on the highway.  You were complying with the intent of that part of the Law.

You see the letter was helping us to understand the Spirit but when the Letter BECOMES the Law in our lives then we have errored.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 05:27:46 PM »
My  :2c:

The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
....

Pneuma, I would say it is the opposite.  I would say it is the Spirit of the Law that works Life but that the letter is what works death.  I will expound on that in my next post.

Paul

Paul that depends on what death you are refering to, the letter brings death to the spirit, the spiritual law brings death to the old man, tis the second death brother, that is why it says the law is ordained onto life yet is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 05:40:42 PM »
Paul that depends on what death you are refering to, the letter brings death to the spirit, the spiritual law brings death to the old man, tis the second death brother, that is why it says the law is ordained onto life yet is a ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

Ok, pneuma, I understand you more clearly now.  I was concerned about the perception that the Spirit might be looked at as bringing death.  But I understand you as saying that the Spirit brings about the death of the Old man and I agree with that - which is actually life. 

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 05:55:08 PM »
My  :2c:

The law is spiritual and it is the spirit of the law that works death in us.
....

Pneuma, I would say it is the opposite.  I would say it is the Spirit of the Law that works Life but that the letter is what works death.  I will expound on that in my next post.

Paul
Actually Tis The Law of the Spirit which worketh Life , the Letter kills ,not wishing to split hairs but theres no such text as The Spirit of the LAW.

The Law is Spiritual , HE THAT worketh Life Is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT( CHRIST) which is Christ in Us and US in Him , :icon_flower:

Seven is number of Completion= ONE , these are the LAWS HE writes in our Hearts.....=HIM,The magnification of LAW in out Hearts :icon_flower:


Law of Faith=Him :cloud9:

Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Law of Rightouesness=Him :cloud9:

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.


 Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone



Law of God of the heart\mind Heb 10;16= Him :cloud9:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:  
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin




Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Law of Liberty= Him :cloud9:
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty


Law of Christ= Him :cloud9:
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.  

Law of  The Spirit\Life= Him :cloud9:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death


 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Nathan

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LAW!
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2009, 06:00:50 PM »
 :banana: :banana: :trampoline: :banana: :banana:

To bad we don't have a smiley doing backflips!

Zeek

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2009, 06:02:40 PM »

Law of  The Spirit\Life= Him :cloud9:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death


 :icon_flower:

AMEN.  I BELIEVE.  ALL GLORY TO HIM

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

YES

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline Tony N

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2009, 06:03:26 PM »
I am starting this topic on the Law to discuss what it is.  What was abolished and how does it apply to our Christian lives and more.  This is a complex subject and I hope we have patience with each other and ask God to help us in understanding this topic. 

First I want to say that the Law was ordained unto Life.  What are your thought about that?

Here is the verse:

Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Paul

Ya gotta go a little further:

Rom 8:6-8  For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,  (7)  because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."  (8)  Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Get stacked the deck against Israel. He made a two way covenant with them: They promise to keep ALL the law and they will live. They fail to keep ALL the law, they die by receiving all the curses of the law.

But God didn't come out and tell them they could not keep the law because they were made (by God) as flesh and flesh can't keep the law.

The law came in by the way so that sin would be increasing (Romans 5:20) and the law was given to escort them to Christ (Gal.3:24).

We are not under law but under Grace (Rom.6:14).
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2009, 06:11:29 PM »
Quote
Actually Tis The Law of the Spirit which worketh Life , the Letter kills ,not wishing to split hairs but theres no such text as The Spirit of the LAW.

Hi bro I agree no scripture says spirit of the law, I use that term for explianation purposes for if I just said law people would not understand which side of the law I am refering to.

Offline Taffy

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2009, 06:14:31 PM »
Quote
Actually Tis The Law of the Spirit which worketh Life , the Letter kills ,not wishing to split hairs but theres no such text as The Spirit of the LAW.

Hi bro I agree no scripture says spirit of the law, I use that term for explianation purposes for if I just said law people would not understand which side of the law I am refering to.

 :thumbsup:
Thanks for opening the window of oppotunity to post Scott, As one who was STUCK in the Old, took me yrs Until he opened My eyes the understanding of he New C, I learnt the HARD way...it still kinda sticks im me ribs some :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2009, 06:33:29 PM »
Be sure to read my analogy on the Speed limit.  Read it over and over until you understand it.  It will make sense to you why Jesus did keep the law while the Pharisees seen Him as breaking the law.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2009, 06:38:41 PM »
Jesus was all about breaking their image of the law . . .and in doing so, he fulfilled the law at the same time.

The woman with an issue of blood . .she broke the law as well . .. she wasn't even supposed to be there . . . people with infirmities were to be outside the gates of the city and definitely not touching another person .  .but there comes a time when we need to ignore what men say law is as we become desparte for a touch of the Truth in our lives.

woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.

pneuma

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2009, 06:44:26 PM »
Quote
woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.

Good stuff bro, :thumbsup: thanks

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2009, 06:48:16 PM »

woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan......a menstrous woman is also a Hebraism for idolatry. Thus another thing God did to show Israel, who was a menstrous woman by that time, "herself". Blessings....
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 06:52:18 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2009, 07:17:49 PM »
Jesus was all about breaking their image of the law . . .and in doing so, he fulfilled the law at the same time.

The woman with an issue of blood . .she broke the law as well . .. she wasn't even supposed to be there . . . people with infirmities were to be outside the gates of the city and definitely not touching another person .  .but there comes a time when we need to ignore what men say law is as we become desparte for a touch of the Truth in our lives.

woman=soul/mind bleeding . . . when a womb bleeds, it is the evidence there is no life there . . . when the bleeding stops, a seed has taken root and life is soon to be birthed.

 Like That Nat :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2009, 07:32:02 PM »


It was "ordained" unto LIFE all along, not unto "sacrifices" of
bulls and goats.  But man eating from the tree of knowledge
of good and evil, got a few things mixed up.  Then we had to
go all around all this mess to find our way back! To understand
why Paul called it HOLY!  The "killing" part was ADDED.  It was
"ordained" to LIFE, but then God said "I kill and I make ALIVE."
When Paul saw the Truth, he even called the killing part, HOLY.
That is why it says in Psa. 50 "Call my people together, those
that have made a "covenant" with me by "sacrifice" .......a few
verses down, God says "Will I drink the blood of bulls and goats.?"
"I will not reprove you for these sacrifices, but ......we have to
learn OBEDIENCE is better than "sacrifice and offering".  And
"why" Job was called Perfect and Upright even "before" his trials.
God was seeing the Second Man in him all along, but Jop being
born subject to vanity,  wasn't.
God says He will "break" our "covenant" mentioned there in Psa.
50.  It is a covenant of death.  Not unto LIFE! Jesus came to show
us the WAY of Obedience.  Laying down our lives leads to finding
our lives.  Finding that Second Man.  As we have borne the"image"
of the earthy, law, first covenant, judging after the flesh, misunderstanding, etc. so shall we bear the IMAGE of the Heavenly
a Quickening Spirit.  Jesus was given all Judgement to "quicken"
whomsoever He would.  LIFE giving Jesus.

Offline jabcat

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2009, 04:49:06 AM »
Ya gotta go a little further:

Rom 8:6-8  For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,  (7)  because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."  (8)  Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

God stacked the deck against Israel. He made a two way covenant with them: They promise to keep ALL the law and they will live. They fail to keep ALL the law, they die by receiving all the curses of the law.

But God didn't come out and tell them they could not keep the law because they were made (by God) as flesh and flesh can't keep the law.

The law came in by the way so that sin would be increasing (Romans 5:20) and the law was given to escort them to Christ (Gal.3:24).

We are not under law but under Grace (Rom.6:14).

Amen, bro T...context and reconciling the whole of scripture.  And yes, RLV...Jesus, the Rock of our Salvation, from which springs the wells of living waters...the grace to the nations...not letters written on stone!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 04:51:52 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

bobf

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2009, 05:17:28 AM »
Quote
We are not under law but under Grace (Rom.6:14).

Amen, bro T...context and reconciling the whole of scripture.  And yes, RLV...Jesus, the Rock of our Salvation, from which springs the wells of living waters...the grace to the nations...not letters written on stone!

The Law came by Moses.  Grace and truth came by Christ.  Are we under Him?  How about under His words?




Offline claypot

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Re: The LAW!
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2009, 05:51:39 PM »
To me the law is just there because people don't yet know what love is and what it means TO LOVE.

Example:

LAW: If you are married, do not sleep with other men.

ME: I love my husband and would lay down my life for him, I love him THAT much. Of COURSE I don't need some law telling me not to sleep with other men! The thought would never even enter into my mind.

The law does not apply to me, in that, LOVE has already kicked that law to the curb. It is not needed.
I do not need a law that tells me to do something dishonorable to the one that I love.


A lot of people get really zoned in on sin. They turn sin into a god. It's true. The law becomes some sort of god to them. How foolish.

What did Jesus come here for in the first place?
To show us the way.
LOVE.

The more you love, the less NEED you have for law....
The law is here to help us see our NEED to LEARN about LOVE.
The more you love, TRULY UNSELFISHLY LOVE, the less you need someone telling you what TO DO and what NOT TO DO... it will be written on your heart.

I don't see why it has to be any more complicated than that.
But that's just me.
I know I'm still the girl on the outside peering in...
I don't know the language.
and that's ok.
I'm ok with that.

peace.

So good Sparrow.

And Paul, that speed limit analogy was great too. Not that the other stuff isn't good, it's just I can relate to yours and Sparrows way of putting it. Interesting how there are volumes and volumes of words about the law and yet I see them all summed up in yours and Sparrows posts.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.