Author Topic: the latin vulgata  (Read 1510 times)

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Offline sven

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the latin vulgata
« on: November 26, 2008, 07:38:08 PM »
here you can read a lot of translation, especially interesting is the latin vulgate:

http://www.bibleserver.com/index.php

maybe interessting when discussing with catholics:

gehenna a place, the vulgate proofs it:

Joshua 15,8:

ascenditque per convallem filii Ennom ex latere Iebusei ad meridiem haec est Hierusalem et inde se erigens ad verticem montis qui est contra Gehennom ad occidentem in summitate vallis Rafaim contra aquilonem

King James:

And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:

Matthew 5,29:

quod si oculus tuus dexter scandalizat te erue eum et proice abs te expedit enim tibi ut pereat unum membrorum tuorum quam totum corpus tuum mittatur in gehennam

King James:

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

the latin vulgate proofs also that "aeternum" means not endless

Exodus 15,18 Dominus regnabit in aeternum et ultra

it would mean, "in eternity and beyond" - how could something be beyond eternity?

also Micah 4,5 quia omnes populi ambulabunt unusquisque in nomine dei sui nos autem ambulabimus in nomine Domini Dei nostri in aeternum et ultra

"saecula saeculorum" instead of "forever and ever" in english bibles or from "eternity to eternity" in german bibles, its an advantage, that in german language we often say "ewig" (eternal) or "ewigkeit" (eternity) in common speach and dont mean "endless".

revelation 20,10:

et pseudoprophetes et cruciabuntur die ac nocte in saecula saeculorum

"saecula saeculorum" literally means "ages of the ages" as the concordant bibles translate.

scheol/hades is always translated "inferno"

maybe it was helpfull for somebody





« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 07:40:14 PM by sven »

Online WhiteWings

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Re: the latin vulgata
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 08:04:12 PM »
 :thumbsup: topic sven.


"saecula saeculorum" instead of "forever and ever" in english bibles or from "eternity to eternity" in german bibles, its an advantage, that in german language we often say "ewig" (eternal) or "ewigkeit" (eternity) in common speach and dont mean "endless".

I'm Dutch and we almost use the same words.
Eeuwig and eeuwigheid. But for me it has the feeling of eternal.
When looking it up in a dictionary it simply means eternal.
In everyday use its often limited. "The traffic jam lasted for ever."
But also eternal. In church use it always means eternal.
Eeuw=century=100 years
So a word that is derived from a word that always means 100 years means eternity.
And guess what: we have our own: for ever and ever.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: the latin vulgata
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 09:21:37 PM »
btw google translates aion into "century", i maybe will check all places in the septuagint.

a latin dictonary says that saecula saeculorum is an idiom for "from eternity to eternity" (von Ewigkeit zu Ewigkeit) but as this phrase makes no sense, i think its a meaning given to it by latin catholic church, "the aions of the aions" seems an hebrew idiom like "songs of songs" and i quess it means special aions, some german translations really have the plural eternities (ewigkeiten).

as far as i know Jerome believed also in universal salvation but said it must kept secret

Online WhiteWings

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Re: the latin vulgata
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 11:18:16 PM »
http://www.godfire.net/allencompassing.html  <= great article!
.pdf enclosed in this post

"As for the Latin Vulgate, over all, Jerome did an excellent job. His translation became a classic that has been used ever since. However, we must confine our remarks here to the subject of "eternal" and "everlasting," because it is through the Latin Vulgate (The Roman Catholic Bible) that we inherited these words (eternal and everlasting) in the English Bible!

"When Jerome came to the Greek word aeonian (age-lasting), he had two Latin words to choose from in its translation: seculum and aeternum. Both of these words had already been used in the Old Latin version that he was correcting. And, in fact, these words were quite close in meaning to the Greek aeonian. So Jerome used both words interchangeably.

There was just one problem. The Latin words had a double meaning, according to a footnote which was found in Augustine's "City of God."

The words "eternal" and "eternity" from Latin eternus, aeternitas, are related to aevum, which mans BOTH "unending time" and "a period of time;" for the second meaning, the commoner (sic) word is aetas.

"This footnote was put in by modern Latin scholars to clarify the Latin terminology, because Augustine was attempting to prove that aeternus and aeternitas in his Latin Bible was unending time. In fact, as they pointed out, it also meant a limited period of time.

Recall the verse, Psalm 45:6 --

"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (olam va ad, "the age and beyond)."

"Jerome translated this phrase to read in Latin: "in aeternum et ultra," that is, "into eternity and beyond." It is obvious that Jerome knew that aeternum referred to a limited period of time, an age, rather than "eternity" as we know it today, for there is nothing beyond eternity.

"At any rate, Jerome used both seculum and aeternus in the Latin Vulgate. Twelve hundred years later, the King James translators simply followed the Vulgate in their rendering of these words. Whenever the Vulgate said aeternus, the KJV said "eternal;" whenever the Vulgate said seculum, the KJV reads "world." This is why Matthew 13:39,40 reads "the end of the WORLD" instead of "the end of the age." Our word "secular" means "pertaining to this world-order, or this age."

"It is not that Jerome's translation was incorrect. His words were technically alright. The problem was that they apparently had a double meaning, and that Augustine chose the wrong meaning to champion eternal torment. Latin scholars thus point out his bias. Furthermore, Augustine was severely handicapped (as a translator) because he was virtually ignorant of the Greek language.

"Augustine's failure to learn Greek was a momentous casualty of the Late Roman educational system; he will become the only Latin philosopher in antiquity to be virtually ignorant of Greek." --Peter Brown.


« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 11:23:18 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: the latin vulgata
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 10:00:19 PM »
the vulgata really amazes me sometimes

Isaiah 9:6 is translated the very same way as the concordant version of Isaiah

parvulus enim natus est nobis filius datus est nobis et factus est principatus super umerum eius et vocabitur nomen eius Admirabilis consiliarius Deus fortis Pater futuri saeculi Princeps pacis

'Pater futuri saeculi' means something like 'Father of the age/eon to come'