Author Topic: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind  (Read 1365 times)

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TheAuthenticFan

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Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« on: November 26, 2012, 07:31:25 PM »
  How do the Universalist Christians explain this Verse

Offline victoriousgospel

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 08:13:35 PM »
Again, TAF, like many of the "eternals" and "everlastings" in the Bible, this is a translation error that infers the translator's bias into Scripture. The word used in the original Hebrew is 'olam', which can mean anything from 'a long time' to 'an indeterminate period'.

This word is used in the story of Jonah. He was in the belly of the fish for 'olam'... which turned out to be three days.

Offline victoriousgospel

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 08:25:07 PM »
We really don't know what God's judgments entail - it may well be different for each individual - so that's why it's important to wrap your head around God's plan for 'the ages'. Average Bible translations kind of paint this concept with a really broad brush, and I doubt most Christians even have a concept of this.

Understand that God is working toward being 'all in all'. What that means we can only guess at. However, any time you read 'forever' or 'eternal' or 'everlasting' in your Bible, it's important to A) put that in context with the original words being used (usually 'olam' or 'aion') and B) contextualize that against the idea that the Bible EXPLICITLY STATES that Jesus is 'the savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of those who believe' (1 Tim 4:10).

So, eventually, all men will have to be saved. It is God's will, and God does not fail at anything he purposes.  It's written all over the Bible.  Read it. Necessarily, any punishment they endure must be restorative and must have an end.

Offline victoriousgospel

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 08:55:36 PM »
Additionally, you have to digest that 'being saved' is absolutely in no way an act of human free will. The Bible states over and over that it is an act of God's will. Thusly, when called, nobody will be able to resist that.

Think about Paul. He was on the road to Damascus, getting ready to persecute (maybe even beat or kill) some Christians. But when he was exposed directly to the light of Jesus, his own will was completely broken. He spent the rest of his life preaching the Gospel and putting himself in harm's way for the glory of God.

Does it sound to you like Paul was ready to be saved? Of course not! But he was, wholly and completely.

God seems to be using this age to work a little more subtly, choosing his 'overcomers' before the end times when all the remaining holdouts will be brought into the fold.

In this way, I actually believe the conversion of Paul prefigures what might be referred to in Revelation as the 'lake of fire'. For those people who have died physically, but have steadfastly refused to become 'dead to self' and let Christ in - they will need God's will to force the 'second death'. Paul experienced this on the road to Damascus, and it was not pleasant - he went temporarily blind and was probably scared out of his mind! It's important to heed God's call in this life if you are lucky enough to have gotten it!

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 09:38:39 PM »
VG - You are astute and know scripture. Thank you :dsunny:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 09:49:08 PM »
VG - You are astute and know scripture. Thank you :dsunny:

Yes, and he writes like a forum veteran!  Hats off!!
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline sheila

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2012, 11:10:10 PM »
    the two fates of mankind.....as we have all bore the image of the corrupt one[and his fate death]

  so,too,shall we all bear the image of the incorrupt one[and His fate..life eternal]

Offline sheila

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2012, 11:17:04 PM »
   two seeds..good/evil..two fates..life and death...two spirits..love/hate

  the eternal and the temporal

  body of our humiliation[shame/nakedness]..body of our Glory[clothed in Christ]

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 08:17:31 AM »
Additionally, you have to digest that 'being saved' is absolutely in no way an act of human free will. The Bible states over and over that it is an act of God's will. Thusly, when called, nobody will be able to resist that.


I respectfully disagree with this. Underneath the exercise of our will the sovereignty of God is working through the circumstances He sets up that brings us to our knees and the yielding of our wills to Him. The will is involved, according to the scriptures.

"Men and Brethren, what must we do.

"Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit, for the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar of even as many as the Lord shall call to Himself".

Don't get me wrong here. I know that salvation is not "of ourselves" and that is is "the gift of God", but the will is involved IMO and that is why the language of scripture so frequently involves the will and our exercising of it.

So my objection is only to the "in no way" part. I think this goes further than the scriptures and oversimplifies the issue for seekers.

"Paul, it is hard for you to kick against the goads"- Paul was brought to a point in the dealings of God, through the workings of God in His conscience, that he was ready to be delivered from himself. I believe salvation is exactly an interaction between the will of man and the will of God, enveloped by the one who through love "makes all things work according to the counsel of His will.

This in no way impacts the message of UR, since I believe that LOVE WINS in everyone ultimately and God has so predestined this. You do not need to believe in absolute sovereignty to become a believer in UR.
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Offline reFORMer

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 08:35:01 AM »
Though already mentioned in the first reply by victoriousgospel, let me re-state it.  According to the KJV Bible (in Jonah 2,) Jonah died and went to hell for ever.  From there he prayed and God answered him and saved him.  This "forever" was for 3 days.  Obviously a mistranslation is to blame.  Similarly, "hell" gets pasted over enough differing words in the original to make it clearly a mistranslation also, here and in other places.  We should want to think in agreement with God.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 08:56:22 AM »
"So I said, 'I have been expelled from Your sight. Nevertheless I will look again toward Your holy temple.' "Water encompassed me to the point of death. The great deep engulfed me, Weeds were wrapped around my head. "I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever, But You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.
(Jon 2:4-6)

I kinda like Jonah as a type of Israel. Sent to be a deliverer, given the word of deliverance but refusing to go. Finally, as one rising from the dead, delivering the word of deliverance(the gospel of salvation) That Living Word, through Messiah, wrought deliverance among the heathen, but Israel goes and pouts beneath the gourd that God raised up for shade. Finally, the gourd withers, the shade is gone and God teaches Jonah(Israel) a lesson about why they were given the prophetic word in the first place- to be a Lampstand, a light among the nations.

Bringing this up to today......... The United States has been the gourd under which Israel sits and pouts ( I will make this people jealous by a nation of another tongue) and the gourd is withering. Soon the gourd will be withered and Israel will be sitting directly in the "heat of the day"- and receive a revelation of God's love for them and a revelation of their KING"S SAVING POWER.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
(Rom 11:15)

For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
(Rom 11:30-31)

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Offline Deena

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 01:45:34 PM »
Ew: I can not believe in UR without the belief of God's complete sovereignty. He will work all things according to the council of his will or He will abdicate it to His creation. The later takes me back to trying to save myself. No thanks, I'm done flogging myself.

I think perhaps you have hit the nail on the head, however... "Paul was brought to a point..." Well, who or what did that? It certainly wasn't Paul's idea. Just sayin'--of course this is from my amatuer point of view. I find it such a comfort to know God doesn't leave things up to me. I cling to it.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 04:55:45 PM »
Amen Deena. "Without HIM we can do nothing"
"In Him we live and move and breathe and have our being"
"What is done apart from the Holy Spirit is sin"
 
 
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 07:18:34 AM »
Ew: I can not believe in UR without the belief of God's complete sovereignty. He will work all things according to the council of his will or He will abdicate it to His creation. The later takes me back to trying to save myself. No thanks, I'm done flogging myself.

I think perhaps you have hit the nail on the head, however... "Paul was brought to a point..." Well, who or what did that? It certainly wasn't Paul's idea. Just sayin'--of course this is from my amatuer point of view. I find it such a comfort to know God doesn't leave things up to me. I cling to it.

I have no problem with the fact that you can't believe in UR without believing in the complete sovereignty of God. I believe in the "ultimate sovereignty" of God. However, my concern is that no one impose there doctrinal agendas upon the teaching of ultimate reconciliation. One may believe in UR from a free will point of view as I do- or from a complete sovereignty poit of view as you do. It would be an error to teach one view or the other as "the view", because you never find whole agreement on that topic. Yet we are all wholly agreed upon the salvation of all.

Actually I believe that God is completely sovereign, but that He gave us a will and is teaching us to use it for His glory. Most of these disagreements are just semantical in my opinion.
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »
I agree EW it's like having a discussion on what day of the week Jesus will return. 2 out of seven will be correct.
(It's a different day in some part of the world) which is why I think Jesus said no man can know the hour or the day.)
The hour and the day are different all over the world for a single event.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Daniel 12:2- The Two Fates of Mankind
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 08:38:10 PM »
yea, exactly.

Also, Jesus said that the coming of the Lord will be like the "bright-shining" from the east to the west"

Lots a folks like the translation that indicates, "lightning".

I think it will be more like a sunrise, so.....we don't need someone telling us what time it will occur. We need to me up on the rooftop watching and waiting for a beautifully breaking dawn. :o)

But I sure wouldnt try to make a "doctrine" outta that :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com