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Livelystone

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The fall and return to Eden....
« on: August 15, 2007, 01:19:41 AM »
Greetings

This is very long.... about 6 pages in word doc.

I wrote it in response to friend and brother who felt that sin existed in Adam both before the creation of Garden of Eden and and then also within it.

Because the plan for man IMO is the return to the Garden, first by some and then by all I felt this was the correct place to put it. I stopped writing soon after I started it but God made me return to finish it....... I really felt like Jonah

For many it will be to long to read (and I do not blame them) but for some they will be a witness to it. Others may disagree and I would like to hear negative constructive comments just as well as positive. I have always felt that if Genesis is truly understood the rest of the Bible becomes much simpler to grasp.

Blessings

Doug

Part One


The Garden, Adam and Sin

There are several reasons why God's children misunderstand the history and prophecy of the Garden of Eden along with Adam and Eve, the fall and why all of this contributes to them remaining in bondage to sin. If the beginning of God's plan for man is misunderstood then what is yet to come is also missed out on because you cannot understand how and where you are to go if you do not know where you have been. First we need to correctly identify what happened in the beginning as well as when the fall happened so that we may then understand the directions given to us along the path that leads us back to the Garden of Eden otherwise known as heaven on earth

Mankind needs to understand that he is a spirit with a soul and that both of them are set within the limitations of our physical body. The physical body does not have any life without the spirit and if the spirit should leave the body then the body is dead (James 2: 26). The soul is the personification of a spirit and as its "likeness" its decisions are seen through the actions of the body. In scripture the spirit is also a seed and if the seed is evil then so are the soul and the fruit from it. The body becomes nothing at death and returns to the dust that it came from but the soul stands before God to be judged for the things that were done while in the body it resided in while on earth. This applies to all of mankind that has ever lived or died on earth and there are no exclusions given. Those who have been taught that they are excluded from being judged and will be the ones doing the judging at the throne of God in the day of the resurrection have been taught wrong. However that subject is about the ends of man and this writing is about the beginning of man.

The body that was formed for Adam was an "earthen vessel" just as ours is and it was made from the dust of the earth and designed to be compatible with others of a similar design and to contain a spirit and a soul within it. Once Adam became alive through the breath of God in him, Adam and God communed through the spirit and soul in Adam that was from God. Every spirit has a soul (likeness) and in the beginning when God breathed into the form of Adam, Adam got the breath of God that had both the Spirit and Soul of God within it. This is one of the basic laws that always holds true of every seed producing a tree in its own image and when that tree is mature it will produce fruit (knowledge and works) in the same image and likeness of the original seed. This is a law of God that cannot be violated. God said that He has already made man both male and female and in His image because God is both Spirit and Soul and they are one male (spirit) and one female (soul) just as He is. Because He also said that at some point in time we will also come to be in His Likeness those who study scripture know that this time is soon to come. When that too comes to pass man will be able to return to the Garden of God, heaven on earth and live in a state of righteousness with our creator while we are on earth just as Adam did. This is one of the things we ask for in the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray when we say "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as in heaven" 

The Garden of Eden is also called and is translated as the Garden of God  (Ezek 28:13, 31:9). The word translated for garden is "gan" Strong's #1588 and that is defined to be a fence. God is righteousness and within Him there is only righteousness and there is no sin but without the fence of God is where sin and unrighteousness can be found. Consequently what we can see in the Garden of Eden is the presence of God's righteousness on earth without the curse on it and a man being in it is a man being in heaven while on earth. exactly what we are told to pray for in the Lords prayer. God and His laws are a burning fire and nothing can survive "in God" that is not compatible with being "In Him". Whether it is a burning bush or the top of a mountain ever since the curse was put on the earth after Adam's sin, contact between the earth and the righteousness of God has resulted in quite a commotion to say the least. On the other hand when man has walked in obedience with God, stepping into the fiery presence of God has been beneficial to him. Just as Moses went into the fire came out of the fire with the Law of God given to him on stone so will Christians get the laws written on their hearts from the presence of the fire of God in Christ within them

God is Spirit and when the Spirit of the fullness of God (or likeness of God) is found in man it is called the Christ Spirit. Christ is a seven fold spirit and they are listed in Isa. 11:2. What new students of scripture must realize is that Christ is not the last name of Jesus but is the fullness of the seven fold Spirit of God in man and that is why Jesus was called to be the Christ.

Isa.11: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

When it is said that God took council in Himself and from no other it is from within these seven spirits that God took council with Himself. It is through these seven spirits that the foundations of the earth were laid and all things on earth and in heaven were created through them. When in the beginning of Genesis where it says, " let us make man", it is God speaking and taking council amongst Himself. By studying the seven separate spirits we can see which one God meant when He said that man had become as "one of us" after Adam had sinned. Because Adam had used the spirit of council with himself and Eve rather than with God we can see that the "spirit of council was the "one of us" spoken by God that man had become. At this point man had to be separated from the tree of life lest he eat of it and live forever only seeking council from himself and never from God. This has been the cause of all the problems of man from the beginning until now because instead of man following the commandments of God he has rationalized things with himself as he sees and hears through his soul rather than hearing from the Lord. This has all come about as a direct result of the lack of the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord in man just as it was also missing from Adam. However the fear of the Lord is another separate spirit by itself and it is a part of the seven-fold spirit of God. The Fear of the Lord starts with hating evil and ends with gaining wisdom. (Ps.111: 10, Pr.8: 13,9:10). It is the solution to all the aliments of mankind and until Adam sinned and felt the consequences of it, Adam did not have the knowledge of evil nor did he have the spirit of the fear of the Lord. So we can see that the school of hard knocks started way back in the Garden of Eden but man is suppose to learn by his mistakes and not repeat them. This is all just more proof determined through the scriptures that Adam and the Garden were without sin versus the opinion of some that man and the Garden were created with sin in them.

To move further in understanding God's ultimate purpose for man one has to take into consideration that what is spiritual has a natural counterpart in the physical (natural) dimension. This scriptural fact also has the two required witnesses that establish it as true and suitable for teaching God's Word and they may be found in 1Cor. 15: 44,46. Understanding how this principal is used and how in God's Word it is used in accordance to God's laws is needed to be understood before one can grasp all of the Bible and all of its prophecies. Within the physical dimension it is "first the natural and then the spiritual" but within the spiritual realm it is just the opposite and what is spiritual is first and then becomes what is natural. This is seen before creation in Job 38: 7 when all the morning stars were in the spirit and shouted for joy in Christ when He still had all His original glory. Only after that do we see the son of the morning star or son of God who is Adam in the garden and by the law of the seed he is made of the same spirit he had while in Christ and in spirit before he became a living soul on earth.

What else is being said here in Genesis is that God was both male and female and before mankind became both male and female as separate individuals, an individual man named Adam was made both male and female through his spirit and soul. This was accomplished because the role of the spirit is male and the soul is female. According to the laws of spiritual and natural they too are called "Adam and Eve". The word used for soul in the original languages is always feminine in its gender and although the word for spirit is gender free, the spirit is always the male part of the spirit and soul enabling them to " becoming one" so that a new life may come from an individual who has had the Spirit of Christ AKA Holy Spirit come into their heart. The word spirit is gender free so the greater may be over the lesser and an example would be that of Jesus Christ who is definitely male as God is but Jesus Christ was the Soul of the Spirit of God so He was submissive to the Spirit of God.

Understanding this principle helps us to see that not only did Cain and Abel come forth from Adam and Eve as physical individuals, we also see that they reflect the natures of good and evil that will come from the spirit and soul of future persons who may or may not become believers of Jesus Christ in this age. However in a unbeliever the wicked Cain nature will eventually rule over the good Abel nature because it is the stronger of the two and by the time of the flood God said that man had become wicked in all his ways.

to be continued
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 01:22:21 AM by Livelystone »

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 01:21:36 AM »

Continued from part one

Once God had separated Himself from Adam man no longer had the Spirit of God for his life source. Now man was left with just a simple earthly spirit that Paul calls the "spirit of man that was no different than that of beasts. (Ps.49: 12, Eccl.3: 19, 1st Cor.15: 40,41) Ever since the end of man's time in the Garden of Eden when God clothed Adam and Eve (spirit and soul man and woman) in the skins of animals we have seen the animal natures in mankind and there are no differences in spirit between man and beast until Christ comes into a man and changes things. However I do not see that to be true of the soul because it is man that God comes to visit and save rather than animals. (Ps.8: 4, 144; 3) Throughout the scriptures we see types and shadows of man portrayed by both clean and unclean animals and the ones who are partially clean such as swine and camels reveal much about what happens to whom. However when we come to perfection and holiness the knowledge of the spirit and soul of God is revealed in the expressed image of His spirit only and the Likeness of His Soul is first seen in Jesus Christ just as God said He would make man to be in. God accomplished this first through Christ Jesus but later this was duplicated through Him in us so closely that John could not tell the difference between his fellow servant and Jesus Christ whom he had spent so much time with. (Re.19: 10).

Sin also needs to be understood in order to understand the fall and sin is both a noun and a verb. As a noun it is described as both a principality and a life giving force that exist in spirit form but when it likeness becomes visible it is seen as an action and that is when sin becomes a verb. In simplified words sin is a noun that produces a verb in its own likeness and this verb is defined as a transgression of God's Law. For Adam to have ever existed within the fence of righteousness called the Garden of Eden, Garden of God or heaven on earth he had to be without sin for there is no sin in God. As soon as sin was found in Adam he got the boot from the garden and this is why all of creation awaits for the manifestation of the sons of God. This is when man will fulfill God's commandment and have dominion over the earth in compliance with God rather then how it now is with Satan ruling over the earth through his control over the unclean spirit of man.

The knowledge of spirit and soul along with the understanding of God and His seven fold Spirit allows us to conclude that Adam was without sin when he was created and for as long as he was allowed to remain within the Garden of Eden (before judgment). The Garden of Eden, the fence of righteousness represented heaven and earth together in a relationship between God and man and not just a nice place that Adam got to hang out at for a while. The same principle behind this is also seen when Jesus said that the son of man was in heaven while standing and talking to individuals on earth. (Jn.3: 13)

At the time of the fall Satan first deceived the soul (Eve) but once that happened Adam could see the separation between Eve and God yet he still chose to listen and follow after her rather than seek the mind of God by asking council of Him through the Spirit of God. (This process of committing sin in us is still played out today just as it was then) Once Adam yielded to sin he then became part of the transgression and was now unclean because of the noun of "sin" in him. Because the seed is in the male Adam's sin in noun form has been passed down to all of mankind through his unclean spirit. We are as when David said of himself being conceived in iniquity because of the sin (uncleanness) of the male spirit found in the blood and passed to the female womb of his mother through Jesse. (Ps.51: 5). It is because of sin that the spirit and soul of man is unclean and they fall under the laws of clean and unclean but they may be put to death with Christ on the Cross-so we can live in the flesh through His Holy Spirit given unto us as believers of Jesus Christ.

We can see the presence of this other woman (mind of Christ) the original soul of God first given to Adam when he became a "living soul" when God speaks his curse unto Satan.

Ge.3: 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The woman spoken of in verse 14 was obviously not Eve (the soul of Adam) because by this time Eve was in complete compliance with Satan rather than being at enmity with Satan. BTW Eve still is the chosen vessel of Satan to introduce sin into a man today just as he did back then. This 'other woman" is the virgin woman with the seed of Christ that is reserved in spirit and in heaven for those who will be married and reconciled unto God through Christ. She is spoken of the bride adorned for the husband in Rev 21: 2 and is the soul of Christ to be joined with the Holy Spirit to produce the perfect man spoken of by Paul but it will only come through great travail and effort. something that Eve, the bondwoman from the flesh never will be able to do no matter how hard she and the old Adam try to.  In Isaiah we see this as the "Lucifer concept" of man trying to become as God. However by following after the Holy Spirit we can access the mind of Christ even though the soul of Christ flesh has not yet been given to us (Phil. 3:9-14). This Soul of Christ is the "other woman" from back in the Garden of Eden and is reserved for us in heaven just where it has always been since Adam got the boot from heaven on earth. (1Pet 1: 3-6) 

Before God created what is called Adam (mankind) it is said that God formed man from the dust of the earth but the Bible also clearly says that before man was placed in the Garden of Eden that there was no man to till the ground outside the Garden of Eden where everything else already existed. This is a good point to be noted by those who think that man and sin existed together before the Garden was created. What was formed from the dust was the body but the body without a spirit that comes from God is without life and there is no form of man before Adam ever substantiated in any of the scriptures. Adam was not alive until God breathed into the nostrils formed from the dust of the earth. We can see that the "live man" called Adam was alive because he was a spirit within a body that was in harmony with God. The scriptures even say that Adam had become a living soul although by the time Paul wrote Romans he acknowledged that he had become a dead soul to God but this was because of the sin in him passed down from Adam to him. Even though the spirit of man passed on from Adam has sin in it some of the memory of God is still preserved in it and this is why Paul spoke of the Greeks who obeyed the law even though the law was not given to them

It is also understandable why Adam complained to God over his sin and even blamed it on Eve after all God set him up for it. Adam was used to hearing from the soul of God as his mind because he was created with it but suddenly when after God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam he has another voice telling him what to do and this one was the soul (mind) from his flesh (Eve). This was the result of Adam being made subject to vanity so that he and all who followed after him would be made subject to the hope that is Christ. (Ro 8; 20) This is also the reason why all of mankind was determined from before the foundations of the earth to be forgiven of their sins. When we examine the translation of the statement of" being made subject to vanity" we see that there was a change in how Adam became versus how he was when he was first created. To be "made subject to vanity" means to be made differently then how you were first made. Adam being made subject to vanity did not force him to sin by itself however it was when he was setup by God so that he would sin through temptation introduced by the soul from the flesh. At the point of Adam being made subject to vanity his sin was only a matter of when and not if. It happened "not willingly", because Eve who was to later introduce unrighteousness to Adam was taken from Adam's flesh while he was in the deep sleep that God caused to fall upon Adam. Prior to being given this soul from his flesh Adam had only heard from the female part of God (Soul of God) that had the seed of Christ in it. So when Adam woke from his deep sleep he then had another voice speaking within him in the same manner that God did but this new voice is from his flesh instead of the one from God that he was used to. BTW this is why Paul tells us to awake to righteousness because when Adam awoke from his sleep he committed unrighteousness and that many (most Christians) do not have this knowledge of God (1st Cor. 15: 34) but now you do.

Considering all these events and in the order that they happened prior to what is called the "fall of man" makes understanding how Adam sinned so easily. Adam was used to communing with God through the spirit so when Adam (mankind) heard Eve (the soul of man) suggest the forbidden fruit he followed after that voice not yet knowing evil nor having the fear of the Lord. I do suspect that Adam was able to see a separation between God and Eve just as believers hear two voices and are given free will on whom to follow after either the flesh to unrighteousness with sin and death or after the Holy Spirit unto righteousness and life. However when after Adam (spirit) yielded to Eve (soul) and a sin was committed their eyes were opened and for the first time they had fear of the Lord and hid from God when He called to them.. something that had never happened before.

Paul acknowledges that Adam was created without sin because of him being in the similitude of Jesus who was yet to come (Ro.5: 14) and they were both the only individuals in scripture named to be the son of God. Being sinless as Adam was (while unfortunately ignorant) but then with the mind of Christ is the restoration of all things being restored unto us and being back in the Garden of Eden is the vision and hope of righteousness with God while on earth.

So to wrap this up we can see why the "fall" was planned of God and how it was for our ultimate benefit and is just a part of man coming into the likeness of God. In the beginning God rested from His creation work on the 6th day but after the ministry of Jesus was finished on the 4th day of mankind there was rest in heaven again that started with the words of Jesus "it is finished". It will now be our turn to do His work since Him being cut off from His work in the middle of the week. He waits for us to make our enemies our footstool just as He did and is sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for us to show up. Jesus is expecting us to overcome our soul from the flesh through His Holy Spirit that He is pouring out over all flesh on the earth. (Joel 2: 28) Joel prophesied of those who this would happen to as the manifested sons of God who would return to Eden

Joel 2:.. a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. 3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the
garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. 7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:


Blessings

Doug


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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 03:14:09 PM »
Doug I merged these, if you want it split for a reason let me know

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Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 05:13:48 PM »
Hi Guy

Actually I prefer it that way but when I went to post it there a default message about it being to long to post.

Thanks for doing what I could not do

Blessings

Doug

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2007, 05:35:02 PM »
 :cloud9: :thumbsup: WOW.......breakfast with my morning coffee.......what's not to like? That was excellent, Doug, and much to chew on. He told me a few years back that the way back into the garden experience, was the way out. He has been creating circumstances mostly without our awareness (else it wouldn't be a true test) to give us the opportunity to overcome the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

 :gangel: Eve saw the fruit and deemed it pleasant, and desired it to make her wise, but our pattern example Daniel said he would eat no pleasant bread......and the pattern Son had the authority to say, "It is written", when the Spirit took Him out into the wilderness for our example, for He had obtained that authority within Himself before He ever kept His moed (divine appointment) with the Father at the Jordan, because He already possessed His "woman".

 :grave: Those of us that were called outside the camp in the wilderness to "die", could have chosen to eat the pleasant bread offered to us by the "king". But instead by the grace and election of God we "chose' to eat of the bread of affliction that began to make us take on the image of sinful flesh, ie. being conformed into the likeness of His death, that if by any means we might know what is the power of His resurrection, Amen? Blessings to all.........

PS. Forgot to add this......the "soul" of the Christ was pierced that the hearts of many be revealed, and is being pierced again. The piercing is the rending of the veil, which is the Christ within. What does the Holy Ghost do, but reveal the hidden motives of the heart? This is what's coming as we allow Him to rend the veil of our hearts, ie. rend your hearts, not your garments (flesh bodies). Have I not said ye were gods, yet ye die like men?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 05:46:07 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2007, 03:28:29 PM »
Hi Cardinal

First I want to thank you for taking the time to read what I wrote and secondly to thank you for all the kind words.

Your response and words shared has been just as stimulating to me as you found mine and I believe that is the way it is suppose to work. Your words made me think of a NT passage reflecting the result of hearing truth even though I need to go spend some time with what you have shared.

Luke 1: 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Usually when someone first starts to speak I either reject or accept the person but your words rang very true. I was just reminded the other day in a message from someone else concerning me showing Babylonian kings the treasures of the Lord's Temple and consequently them carrying them back to Babylon. I was afraid that I should not have posted what I did and just hoped that the length of it would deter those whom it may not be meant for. Your words have both relieved me of apprehension and blessed me with your knowledge

Thanks again

Blessings

Doug
 

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2007, 05:34:52 PM »
 :cloud9: Yep, that's what it's supposed to be like.......When I read I'm both listening for His voice, and waiting to "feel" the joy rise up within me when something hits my Spirit, so many times even if I don't understand what was said, I know by the Spirit's joy and what I can only describe as a feeling of "urgency", that I am supposed to press in to hear what the Spirit of God would quicken to me in what was written. Works every time.  :thumbsup:

 :sigh: The true meaning of waiting upon the Lord was never explained properly to the body IMO, so they were easily pushed aside to become one of the multitude, instead of one of the disciples. Maybe that was His plan for a season.......none of this was of ourselves......

 :2c: I don't worry about any taking any treasures of the Lord to Babylon. The way I look at it, even if they do, it's just a few more holding the Truth/Christ in UN-righteousness, ie. He has hidden secret things in His pavilions/tabernacles for those of us that are called to feast upon them thru the inworking of the Spirit in the spiritual feast of tabernacles. Nothing is lost in God's economy, and ALL is being gathering up in the feast of IN-gathering/tabernacles.

 :mblush: This may get long, because I'm going to go wherever He takes me with it, He just won't let me off this subject of the firstfruits offering, it's everywhere I look.........BUT....... to put a little more Christ flesh on those "bones" for you, as I think you know, everything out there was/is a pattern......so was His going to the cross "without". The body can only do what it sees the Head do. He had already gone to the cross within (spiritually), possessed His "woman", and gone into the presence of the Father, BEFORE He ever appeared on the scene and did any miracles.

 :mshock: Which is why He said He came from the Father, and they couldn't hear it, because they didn't know who it was that was speaking to them yet, but saw the flesh man only. It's the same spirit as the Saducees who say the resurrection was past already, ie. in this case, it's being blinded thru, He did it in the PAST (ALL the way back, before He got here in the flesh so that we don't have to do anything). That same spirit He warned us about, thru the subtility of the serpent, is STILL blinding us to the NOW of everything, ie. HE is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 :winkgrin: In other words, if it changes the pattern; if it makes it so that the FLESH of Him was deity from the beginning; instead of Him being made like us, then it can hide from our eyes the fact that He had to walk out spiritually everything too, being MADE a son by the things that He suffered. He didn't die on the cross to be made a son, that's not the suffering that is being spoken of, although that's the way we all took it. The cross of God is not made out of wood, it was only a visible manifestation of what goes on within as the Christ seed planted within us takes us thru the denial of self, piercing the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

  :boyheart: :girlheart: And then the next step; joining TWO virgin souls (two becoming one, male and female created He them), so that in that DAY a woman (two virgin souls in union) shall encompass a man (Christ). Father, we give You the glory of which You are due. Behold the "robe" of Melchisedek!

 :cloud9: Which is why He said that about when 2 are gathered in my name/nature there I AM in the midst of you (two), and why He sent the disciples out in 2's. And what He did reply to the disciples when they came back rejoicing over devils being subject to them? Basically, you should be rejoicing that the kingdom of heaven is yours. They didn't understand what had been done in the 2's. And when some of them did apparently get it, they asked which one of them would be on His right and His left, not knowing it had ALREADY, BEFORE THE NATURAL CROSS, been given by His Father, ie. Moses and Elijah at His right and His left....

 :happy3: THESE are they that have washed THEIR "robes" in the blood of the Lamb. This is why He took us out into the wilderness, to take on the image of sinful flesh, the Christ Lamb must be "slain" to get it's blood to wash the robes (souls are the robe of the Spirit). He has been being "slain", ie. the veil of His spiritual flesh being rent, as we came out here and laid down the crowns at His feet = the titles, reputations, gifts, callings, promises, family, friends, churches, ect. There is no other way, He must turn over His kingdom to the Father, and we who possessed the kingdom must surrender it. Christ IS the firstfruits offering, no other offering is good enough, offering anything else is as Cain's offering which is as that which comes from the EARTH/DUST. Blessings to all.....

 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 07:32:09 PM by Cardinal »
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Mickiel

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 06:26:07 PM »
Greetings

This is very long.... about 6 pages in word doc.

I wrote it in response to friend and brother who felt that sin existed in Adam both before the creation of Garden of Eden and and then also within it.

Because the plan for man IMO is the return to the Garden, first by some and then by all I felt this was the correct place to put it. I stopped writing soon after I started it but God made me return to finish it....... I really felt like Jonah

For many it will be to long to read (and I do not blame them) but for some they will be a witness to it. Others may disagree and I would like to hear negative constructive comments just as well as positive. I have always felt that if Genesis is truly understood the rest of the Bible becomes much simpler to grasp.

Blessings

Doug

Part One


The Garden, Adam and Sin

There are several reasons why God’s children misunderstand the history and prophecy of the Garden of Eden along with Adam and Eve, the fall and why all of this contributes to them remaining in bondage to sin. If the beginning of God’s plan for man is misunderstood then what is yet to come is also missed out on because you cannot understand how and where you are to go if you do not know where you have been. First we need to correctly identify what happened in the beginning as well as when the fall happened so that we may then understand the directions given to us along the path that leads us back to the Garden of Eden otherwise known as heaven on earth

to be continued



Well I must say that I disagree with the foundation you put in place here, which kind of throws off some good points you made. It is correct that understanding the events in the garden of Eden is a foundation of all knowledge, I certainly agree with that. But when you label the events as " The Fall", that is a misnomer, and I think incorrect, there was no Fall. Adam and Eve were pushed out of Eden, forced out, or even threw out, that is what God intended. If you label it a " Fall", that highly suggest that humanity purpose was begun by a slip that Adam made, or that the events in Eden were based on the error of Eve. They fell off some " Track that God put them on. I disagree with any notion that such a description as " The Fall" co notates.

Can you explain to me why you believe the first couple fell?

Peace.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 06:34:47 PM by SeekerSA »

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2007, 06:10:42 AM »
Quote
Can you explain to me why you believe the first couple fell?

Because God said they did.

Isa.14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Blessings

Doug

Mickiel

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 06:23:15 AM »
Quote
Can you explain to me why you believe the first couple fell?

Because God said they did.

Isa.14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Blessings

Doug


Are you then suggesting that this Lucifer, is Adam?

Peace.

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 07:25:34 AM »
Hi Mickiel.

BTW Welcome back

Quote
Are you then suggesting that this Lucifer, is Adam?

Yes I am.

Adam was the son of God (son of the morning, Re.22:16, Lk.3: 38) and was created without sin and 'in heaven". When he sinned (Adam,spirit) this fallen spirit was passed down unto all mankind through the seed of the male. Since then all mankind have reproduced in his fallen state as "original sin" and in need of a savior to be reconciled back unto God. This is how Adam weakened the "nations" (man, "goy") at the end of the verse 12

Even though man was no longer in a righteous relationship with God because of sin existing within Adam (in the garden) he was still made in the image of God (Ge.1:27)because even the fallen separated from God (because of sin) "spirit of man" is spirit and soul (male and female) just as God is Spirit and Soul. However when man comes to be in the "likeness" of God then the plan of God first stated in Ge.1: 26 will be fulfilled as the restitution of all things (Acts 3: 21).

Blessings

Doug


Mickiel

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 04:44:11 PM »
Hi Mickiel.

BTW Welcome back

Quote
Are you then suggesting that this Lucifer, is Adam?

Yes I am.

Adam was the son of God (son of the morning, Re.22:16, Lk.3: 38) and was created without sin and 'in heaven". When he sinned (Adam,spirit) this fallen spirit was passed down unto all mankind through the seed of the male. Since then all mankind have reproduced in his fallen state as "original sin" and in need of a savior to be reconciled back unto God. This is how Adam weakened the "nations" (man, "goy") at the end of the verse 12

Even though man was no longer in a righteous relationship with God because of sin existing within Adam (in the garden) he was still made in the image of God (Ge.1:27)because even the fallen separated from God (because of sin) "spirit of man" is spirit and soul (male and female) just as God is Spirit and Soul. However when man comes to be in the "likeness" of God then the plan of God first stated in Ge.1: 26 will be fulfilled as the restitution of all things (Acts 3: 21).

Blessings

Doug




Well thank you for the welcome.

I have come back on visit to some rather strange beliefs by a few here. So now let me get this straight. You believe Adam is Lucifer, which by the way, neither Rev.22:16, or Luke 3:38 proves nothing of the sort. I would like to see the biblical proof of that belief, if you do not mind sharing it. Also I disagree that Adam was created in heaven, I would like to see the support of that.

While you are teaching me these things, also teach me the biblical proof that the garden of Eden was not created on earth, but in heaven, because you must prove that also, in order to prove this fall of Adam.

I neither believe Adam fell from the Garden of Eden, or Satan, both were thrown out. No one has ever fell from the garden of Eden. Everything that happened there, was designed to occur by God.

Peace.

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 01:36:46 AM »
Hello again Mickiel

I am glad you came back and I understood why you left. Sometimes things happen and if we can keep in mind that even the bad things are for our benefit we will grow spiritually every day. IMHO our walk towards Him is on a much straighter line then we might think it is when things seem messed up......... after all He is the one making it straight for us.

Back to the topic

Being in Heaven is not being in some far off physical place but in the presence of righteousness and the throne of God and that can be anywhere. David spoke of God being in both heaven and in hell.(Ps.139:8)

Jesus spoke of himself being in heaven while he was standing on earth..... so did the apostles refer to their daily conduct (conversation) being in heaven while they were standing on earth.

Being "caught up to heaven" is not being taken to some other place but to the higher level of righteousness with God. The Garden of Eden was created on earth and it was heaven on earth which is what we pray for to happen again. (In the Lord's prayer....... thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as in heaven). When Paul got caught up to the third heaven his body did not go anywhere but his spirit and soul went into the presence of the Almighty within the third heaven.

The Morning star is Jesus Christ who is the manifestation of God in human flesh. The passage in Revelation says that Jesus Christ is the morning star and the passage in Luke says the Adam is the son of God who is the son of the morning who was called Lucifer, son of the morning in the passage in Isaiah.

There are a number of writings written by many that have exposed the truth of Lucifer being Adam and not Satan. I have one myself that I will PM to you. 

Blessings

Doug


Mickiel

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2007, 02:06:10 AM »
Hello again Mickiel

I am glad you came back and I understood why you left. Sometimes things happen and if we can keep in mind that even the bad things are for our benefit we will grow spiritually every day. IMHO our walk towards Him is on a much straighter line then we might think it is when things seem messed up......... after all He is the one making it straight for us.

Back to the topic

Being in Heaven is not being in some far off physical place but in the presence of righteousness and the throne of God and that can be anywhere. David spoke of God being in both heaven and in hell.(Ps.139:8)

Jesus spoke of himself being in heaven while he was standing on earth..... so did the apostles refer to their daily conduct (conversation) being in heaven while they were standing on earth.

Being "caught up to heaven" is not being taken to some other place but to the higher level of righteousness with God. The Garden of Eden was created on earth and it was heaven on earth which is what we pray for to happen again. (In the Lord's prayer....... thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as in heaven). When Paul got caught up to the third heaven his body did not go anywhere but his spirit and soul went into the presence of the Almighty within the third heaven.

The Morning star is Jesus Christ who is the manifestation of God in human flesh. The passage in Revelation says that Jesus Christ is the morning star and the passage in Luke says the Adam is the son of God who is the son of the morning who was called Lucifer, son of the morning in the passage in Isaiah.

There are a number of writings written by many that have exposed the truth of Lucifer being Adam and not Satan. I have one myself that I will PM to you. 

Blessings

Doug





Could you just list the scriptures that support your belief? And then give your reasonings in conjunction with them. I hold no intrest in articles written by others, I am simply asking you to give the biblical support for your belief. How others have put the scriptures together is of no use to me, I can put them together myself.

Peace.


Mickiel

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2007, 04:03:33 AM »
Hello again Mickiel


I see you tried to send me something, thank you for trying, but you can post the scriptures I require as proof, believe me, that will be sufficient for me.

Anyhow , a few comments on what you have already shared;




Back to the topic

Being in Heaven is not being in some far off physical place but in the presence of righteousness and the throne of God and that can be anywhere. David spoke of God being in both heaven and in hell.(PS.139:8)

Jesus spoke of himself being in heaven while he was standing on earth..... so did the apostles refer to their daily conduct (conversation) being in heaven while they were standing on earth. Quote;


Well I disagree here with this premise. Heaven is a specific place, it is Spiritually geographic,  it has singular location, but the Throne of God is only in one place. Although God himself is Omnipresent, that does not mean God is in every place at all times. It simply means he has created all places, by his power. His power remains there, the results of his power remains there, but that does not mean he himself is there. When God leaves his throne, he does not  have to take it with him, as if he is riding it like we would a vehicle. But his throne is in the Kingdom of Heaven, and I would disagree with any belief that the Kingdom of Heaven is not a specific location.


Quote:
Being "caught up to heaven" is not being taken to some other place but to the higher level of righteousness with God. The Garden of Eden was created on earth and it was heaven on earth which is what we pray for to happen again. (In the Lord's prayer....... thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as in heaven). When Paul got caught up to the third heaven his body did not go anywhere but his spirit and soul went into the presence of the Almighty within the third heaven. Quote:



Again I disagree. Heaven is a specific place, and the righteousness you speak of is always there. Simply because there is no sin there. Whatever level of righteousness a human may be given, sin will still exist within them, and that is the defining difference. The Garden of Eden was not Heaven on earth, I disagree with that also. Eden was created physical, Heaven is purely Spiritual, there is a distinction there also.


Quote;
The Morning star is Jesus Christ who is the manifestation of God in human flesh. The passage in Revelation says that Jesus Christ is the morning star and the passage in Luke says the Adam is the son of God who is the son of the morning who was called Lucifer, son of the morning in the passage in Isaiah.

There are a number of writings written by many that have exposed the truth of Lucifer being Adam and not Satan. I have one myself that I will PM to you. 

Blessings

Doug



I agree that Jesus is the Morning Star, and that Adam is a Son of God, but I disagree that Adam is Lucifer.

Peace.

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 04:28:11 AM »

Quote
I agree that Jesus is the Morning Star, and that Adam is a Son of God, but I disagree that Adam is Lucifer.

Well since the scriptures say that Lucifer is a man and that he is the son of the morning then whom else do you think he might be.

Blessings

Doug

Mickiel

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 05:14:59 AM »

Quote
I agree that Jesus is the Morning Star, and that Adam is a Son of God, but I disagree that Adam is Lucifer.

Well since the scriptures say that Lucifer is a man and that he is the son of the morning then whom else do you think he might be.

Blessings

Doug


I don't know who Lucifer is. But examining Scripture, I see no mention of a Lucifer in the bible that I use, and most other bibles hold only one scripture that his name is inserted, Isaiah 14:12. I certainly do not see this as Adam, because this beings attitude is shown in vs. 13, 14, as selfishly desiring to raise his throne above Gods and make his self like the most high, that thinking in no manner of interpretation fits Adam. Not in my view.

Anyhow, I am curious, which is why I asked you for the scriptures that formulated your belief. I would assume that one would hold many scriptures to show why they believe something.

It is a big jump in interpretation to label Adam as Lucifer, so I would expect to see some big Scriptures that would enable that leap.

So again, I am asking you to provide them. I would like to see them.

Peace.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 09:06:04 AM by SeekerSA »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 05:50:50 AM »
 :cloud9: I've shared this before, and I have no "connecting" revelation to bridge the gap here (sorry, wish I did), but what I do have is an experience with God when I first came to Him as I mentioned before. It is related, and I personally am hoping He quickens something to me in this discussion to give me more understanding on it.
 
 :2c:  Anyway, I was asleep, and saw in the Spirit, stones set in gold fittings in my chest, that looked "alive" with the Spirit, hard to describe. The Lord spoke to me, "Restoration back to the anointed cherub that covereth." Kinda a given to me then that the "adam" part of us must then be being restored back to the glory? he had.......think about it. Are we not the covering for Christ now? He dwells in us, does He not? I also think it's obviously not a coincidence that the High Priest's ephod was covered in stones also. So this is why I'm straining to hear.......;)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 03:31:31 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 10:13:13 AM »
Quote
It is a big jump in interpretation to label Adam as Lucifer, so I would expect to see some big Scriptures that would enable that leap.

So again, I am asking you to provide them. I would like to see them.

OK

It is long so it will be in two parts



Lucifer and Satan

We are told that in the beginning Lucifer was ordained as a beautiful angel, however he was not content to remain under the rule and authority of God. Jealousy reined in his heart and it soon manifested into rebellion that corrupted other angels as well. A battle erupted in Heaven and as one might expect God prevailed and Lucifer and his rebellious followers were kicked out. Ever since then he has been called Satan and it is his desire to keep as many people as possible from getting to heaven and for them to spend eternity in hell instead.

The ones who taught us this used certain scriptures to support their beliefs, so they concluded that their teachings were based on the Word of God. Through these verses and sermons we have come to believe that Lucifer is Satan, however there is a problem.

The name Lucifer only appears one time in the Bible (KJV) and we are told never to accuse or convict anyone on the word of only one witness.

Num 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person [to cause him] to die.

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Consequently we see Lucifer convicted as Satan through a violation of God's method for determining truth. This by itself should be enough to warn us to further consider the scriptures that are used to support this theory. The verses in Isa. 14 are where the name Lucifer is mentioned so let us examine them first.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
 
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
 
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Although this passage refers to a man that is the king of Babylon, it is these three verses that are used to confirm Lucifer's one time presence in heaven and his failed plan to usurp the throne of God.

Some teachers like to compare this passage with history and the names of individual rulers of Babylon as well as their families to support their theories. We will not make this error and instead we will follow the Word of God to determine spiritual wisdom. History has its place in Bible study however it must never be allowed to take precedence over God's prescribed method for determining doctrine. Besides following the laws for determining truth we will compare scripture with scripture in accordance with God's Law. This method is mandated in the following verses and was used by both New Testament authors and followers.
.
Isa 28:10 for precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

There is another passage in Ezekiel that is used to describe Satan and Lucifer. As in Isaiah this passage is about a man that has become a king but is about to be cut down by God.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
 
Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
 
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
 
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

There are other verses attributed to Satan that we will address but since these are the two most commonly used to describe Lucifer and Satan as one, we will define the words of these before the others.

Lucifer-- [01966] heylel bringing light, brilliant star

If we check with the Webster's 1828 dictionary we find that the word Lucifer was used to describe the planet Venus. During this period of time the sun was considered to be the rising star of the morning (dawn) and not Venus. That fact is also witnessed in scripture where the rising sun is compared to the coming of Jesus.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Satan has done a good job of fooling the church and has done so disguised as one whom appears to bring light, (truth) but in reality they unintentionally spread darkness. (Satan's deceptions) They deceive others just as those who taught them were deceived.

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light
.
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works

The word "transformed" must be properly defined so that there is no confusion.

 Transformed # 3345 metaschematizo: Disguised to appear as the original but is not the same as the original.

By understanding the word properly we can tell that Satan will appear as a messenger of light, however he is the messenger of darkness, the father of lies.

The next word(s) we will define are "son of the morning"

Son #01121 ben 
of the morning #07837 shachar: Is also translated as "dawn"

Both of these words are self described however so that we have no doubt as to who is the brightness of the morning, consider the following scripture

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

One can see by the actual term "son of the morning" that these are two distinct people being made reference to here. Through the two witnesses of truth in Re.22: 16 and Mal.4: 2 we can see that the sun and the morning that is result of it, refer to Jesus Christ. When the Apostle Peter added to the teachings of Paul he used the term "Day Star" and referred to the time when it will happen within us as the dawn.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 10:16:15 AM by Livelystone »

Livelystone

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2007, 10:14:47 AM »
Continued...........

We are truthfully taught that Jesus Christ is God incarnate so consequently we can understand that the "son" of the morning is no other than a Son of God. It is easily discerned from the rest of this verse and the passages as a whole that this is a description of one whom has fallen from grace. There are only two definitive persons in the Bible who are given the title "son of God" and they are Adam and Jesus Christ.

The "son" mentioned here is none other than Adam and because all the glory that was on Adam will return to us at the restoration of all things, it has been imperative for Satan to deceive the church as to the identity of Lucifer.

Lucifer (Adam) was more than just a reflection of light; he was a source of it. There is a difference in the Bible from the glory of one light versus another. Christians are a lesser light than Jesus Christ but they are to shine because the Spirit of God (light) is within them. Adam was a lesser light than God before he fell because God's light (glory) shined forth from him. We see this same comparison between the original definition of Lucifer as the planet Venus and the sun (Jesus Christ). Consider the following verses.

1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
 
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

Before Adam fell he was a light bearer on earth. (A terrestrial body) He was created in the image of God (A celestial body) and was also destined to become in the likeness of his creator. (Ge. 1: 26,27) He was the "anointed Cherub" This statement deserves explanation and once again the true definition of the word will speak for itself.

Cherub # 03742 "k@ruwb

The word "Cherub" means covering and to be over top of. In the Bible it is used to reflect the glory of God in either a place or an object. (God is omnipotent and is over all things)  Adam was commanded by God to subdue the earth and rule over it. By God's sovereign word Adam was to be the authority over earth, but was to remain in subjection to God. Adam was to be over all things on the earth; Adam was God's anointed cherub.

There are other words in these passages as well as in other verses that are used by the church in their erroneous definition that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.

[how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
   
The Hebrew word for nations is "goy" which is another word whose original definition has been lost. The true and original definition meant "people" but now has become to be believed it refers to someone who is not a Jew. It can refer to either a single person or a group depending on whether the use is singular or plural.

Adam's fallen nature has been passed unto all of mankind. When God separated Himself from Adam, Adam's spirit was no longer in communion with God. He then had the spirit of man within him rather than the Spirit of God that he was created with.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Our natural birth has been left in need of a spiritual rebirth because of Adam's sin. Now all of man is in need of a spiritual rebirth. This is how Adam weakened the nations. (People)

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God"

Adam's presence in the Garden of Eden is not disputed and neither is Satan's. However Satan knows that he has to conceal from the church the knowledge of the truth. Without it Satan will continue to have dominion over the flesh of all mankind and that includes the church. We have been called by Jesus to overcome as he overcame and then he will give us the morning star, mankind's original glory.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

This will happen when we come into the likeness of God and all things that were lost at the fall of Adam will be restored. Jesus Christ will remain in Heaven along with God until that time.

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
 
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

"Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Adam was created in the image of God and when he sinned iniquity was found in him. Satan was not created in the image of God. He was created evil and has been evil ever since his creation. He was never good.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The next phrase to scripturally discern is" Stones of fire."

The phrase "stones of fire" has been taught that this is part of hell itself, the domain of Satan. Once again this is erroneous teaching. "Stones of fire" symbolizes the very Holiness of God and His presence. Never in the Bible does it refer to evil or a residence for it.

Lev 16:12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring [it] within the vail:
2Sa 22:13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.
Psa 18:12 At the brightness [that was] before him his thick clouds passed, hail [stones] and coals of fire.
Psa 18:13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail [stones] and coals of fire.

If someone wants to dispute my use of the word coals along with stones they may do so however they will miss the implication of the Fire of God. God's fire represents His very word, law and the process of creation. We are to be purified by it and when we are, our faces will shine as Moses did. 2Sa. 22: 13 shows how it is the intensity of God's light that makes the stones to be on fire. God's fire is meant to correct. It does this by destroying the bad and thus it preserves the good. It is a good fire. Those who preach the truth will cause other stones (persons) to burn with fire. Those stones that burn will form the temple of the living God as "lively stones'. Those who do not will be removed.

The fall from heaven that Lucifer made was because the Garden of Eden was heaven on earth. When Adam sinned he fell from the presence of God's righteousness that is "in heaven". The following verse is sometimes used erroneously to compliment Lucifer's fall from heaven as being something that has already happened to Satan.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Satan still has access to the heavens that are of the earth. This is made clear in the Book of Revelation. However as Jesus spoke in prophetic words there will be a time when he will be cast out. This is not to imply that Satan has access to the third heaven where the righteousness of God exists, but to the lower two heavens.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The identity of the dragon and his tail was exposed in my book "Rise and Fall of the Tail" In this book I described how the tail of the dragon are the church leaders who do the work of Satan and deceive the Body of Christ. (Unknowingly and unintentionally) It is a remnant of the Pharaoh (dragon) of Egypt that has not been left where it should have been.

Having gone this far it would only be proper to accurately define the "Garden of Eden" and the "other trees"

Eze 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.

The Hebrew word for garden is "gan". By definition it means fence and "Eden" refers to a place for something. The Garden of God was in Eden. By definition it implies that within the fence of God is a place of righteousness. As long as Adam remained in his original state of righteousness he remained within the fence of God. When he sinned and fell short he was not allowed to remain there. The Christians who overcome and receive the gift of the morning star will return there. This is our inheritance that awaits us in Heaven. It is not a physical place but is a spiritual relationship with God in righteousness. This is what Adam had before he fell however God knew that he would fall and it was an actual part of God's plan for man.

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Adam was not deceived as Eve was and he yielded to the desires of his soul rather than remain obedient the Spirit of God. The emotions of one's soul are influenced by the senses that reside in our flesh and are a major part of what we must overcome. While Adam allowed the Holy Spirit of God to be the authority within him, God granted Adam authority over the earth. If we allow the Holy Spirit to have dominion in us then the time will come when we can return the Garden of Eden, being made able by God to pass through the flaming sword. Then we can have dominion over the earth and enter into the "promise land". It will be Heaven on earth.

Ezekiel 31 speaks of a tree in the garden that has grown many branches and even though it has obtained the envy of other trees it will be destroyed along with its branches. We are all trees in God's garden on earth however those who have exalted themselves above the true word of God will be destroyed. Their ministries and buildings have obtained earthly grandeur and have made those who speak the truth in humility envious with wonder as to why. God's righteous garden will thrive on earth again and it will be filled with overcomers who will lead others to the truth of God's Word. Those who do not speak the truth of God will not be part of it. They are the trees of Ezek. 31 who will be denied life in the Garden of God.

Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, (the tail of the dragon) saith the Lord GOD.

Blessings

Doug

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2007, 11:06:08 AM »
Doug

Interesting.  Please explain how word Lucifer, derived from the Hebrew, howl to howl, howling, is translated only once in the bible to Lucifer yet all other instances refers and is translated to howling, howl and to howl.

You dispel the Luciferian/satan myth but now have Lucifer=Adam.  How is howl, howling and to howl = Adam?

Curious

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2007, 12:56:07 PM »
Hi Seeker

Once before I heard the thing about the word for "Lucifer" Strongs # 1966 {heylel} being connected through some root forms to the english word "howl" ..... probably from #1984 that means simply to praise or boast. However I find no similarity between the use of the word "heylel" with sound but that it does have to do with light or bearer of light.

This "light bearer" is in keeping with the passage as it stands in both English and in Hebrew (according to a Jewish/Hebrew/Torah  teacher). Adam was a bearer of light and other than Jesus Christ is the only man who at any time walked  reflecting God's presence on earth without "sin" as a noun (not just a simple verb) living in him as we have within us. (Of course that changed when he took part in the transgression).

I think we need to keep in mind what Paul said about the OT being a allegory and of types and shadows. However because the defining limits can then become blurred when doing so we also need to remember that Paul warns us to build our temples of understanding both carefully and lawfully. Those who have not been careful have fulfilled the prophecy of Isa. 28:13  having been snared and fallen backwards. This is how a lot of "new age" apostasy has entered into the UR manifested sons of the Kingdom of God fellowship. God's patterns are seen throughout creation both in the design of the human body and in the relationship from the brain down to the colon but God's Spirit is not bound to any physical limitation...... only man's spirit is. (Acts 17: 26) When man starts calling things like the spinal fluid to be the Holy Spirit of God or that the spine of the body was the "serpent in the garden" they have left the boundaries of sound doctrine. Allegories, types and shadows can reveal a lot but it is a real minefield filled with thoughts and imaginations that are not of Christ but are from the father of all lies.

That being said we can see in created man Adam as the spirit and Eve as the soul but that she came from human flesh with emotions and senses rather then the Soul of God that the morning stars had while in pure spirit/soul in Job 38:7. When Adam sinned there was a separation between him and God because of it. Yet Adam was still alive because of "spirit" but now he lives simply by the spirit in (of) man instead of the Holy Spirit of God........ or as Paul said that the first Adam was of the earth because the earth is lesser than heaven and not because there was any life in the dust that formed Adam's body. This "fallen" spirit is called "fallen" because of the presence of sin in it that is passed down from Adam through his spirit/seed to all mankind as "original sin" and is the reason why man must be born again of the Spirit of God.

Because the spirit of man originally came from God and exists in all mankind is why Paul spoke of the Gentiles who obeyed the law yet were not given the law. (Ro.2: 14,15) The laws of God existed before they were given to Moses with or without them being written down and is why babies who have not sinned are under the penalty of death (Ro.5: 14)  The laws that the gentiles obeyed were also inherited from the spirit handed down from Adam that originally came from God just as original sin was........ together this is the spiritual equivalent to Abel and Cain and why the actions of "unsaved" people are sometimes better then what many Christians are.......... unfortunately.

When Jesus says in Revelations that "he who overcomes as I overcame" will be given the morning star speaks of those who like Him will have a soul from the flesh but will not yield to Satan. (This is our inheritance "1Pet.1:4" from following His Holy Spirit and not allowing the unclean spirit of Adam to return to their heart. Matt 12: 43-45 ) Then with the gift of the "morning star" we will be "overcomers" and minister in both he spiritual and physical realm as called for by the duties of the High Priest............. that is what Adam did in the beginning and is what was lost that is to be returned to us as the restitution of all things. (Acts 3: 21)

Joel speaks of them as the army of God who have Eden before them In Joel 2: 1-11

Blessings

Doug

« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 01:15:44 PM by SeekerSA »

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2007, 01:51:44 PM »
Hi Doug

As star of the dawn, morning star, yes it makes sense, even some of the recent translations of the KJV do not use lucifer.

However, in context (Using the CEV as a neutral translation)

Isa 14:1  The LORD will have mercy on Israel and will let them be his chosen people once again. He will bring them back to their own land, and foreigners will join them as part of Israel.
Isa 14:2  Other nations will lead them home, and Israel will make slaves of them in the land that belongs to the Lord. Israel will rule over those who once governed and mistreated them.
Isa 14:3  The LORD will set you free from your sorrow, suffering, and slavery.
Isa 14:4  Then you will make fun of the King of Babylonia by singing this song: That cruel monster is done for! He won't attack us again.
Isa 14:5  The LORD has crushed the power of those evil kings,
Isa 14:6  who were furious and never stopped abusing the people of other nations.
Isa 14:7  Now all the world is at peace; its people are celebrating with joyful songs.
Isa 14:8  King of Babylonia, even the cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon celebrate and say, "Since you were put down, no one comes along to chop us down."
Isa 14:9  The world of the dead eagerly waits for you. With great excitement, the spirits of ancient rulers hear about your coming.
Isa 14:10  Each one of them will say, "Now you are just as weak as any of us!
Isa 14:11  Your pride and your music have ended here in the world of the dead. Worms are your blanket, maggots are your bed."
Isa 14:12  You, the bright morning star, have fallen from the sky! You brought down other nations; now you are brought down.
Isa 14:13  You said to yourself, "I'll climb to heaven and place my throne above the highest stars. I'll sit there with the gods far away in the north.
Isa 14:14  I'll be above the clouds, just like God Most High."
Isa 14:15  But now you are deep in the world of the dead.
Isa 14:16  Those who see you will stare and wonder, "Is this the man who made the world tremble and shook up kingdoms?
Isa 14:17  Did he capture every city and make earth a desert? Is he the one who refused to let prisoners go home?"

The parts from verse 13 onwards cannot be referring to Adam.  You really need to read this as allegorical to see it any different to the context in which it is mentioned as I cannot see Adam being this character.

We know Eve was deceived, and offered the fruit to her husband, Adam and he ate.

Now the command not to eat of the tree of KoG&E was directed at Adam before Eve came on the scene. Her response to the serpent was a recital of the commandments given to Adam so either God told her too or Adam told her.  Obviously the Genesis account is very much allegorical/symbolic but that is in another thread.

Now if Adam had received the command, Eve partakes, nothing happens, so (Poetic licence) Adam says "Wonder what God meant 'thou shalt surely die' "  He partakes and only then is the nakedness revealed to them both.  Taking Adam and Eve symbolically to represent the spirit and the flesh, I have no problem with but like the becoming one flesh, the partaking of the fruit was only the sin when Adam partook.  He could have declined but did not.

Followed by the curses handed out, as in the other thread I showed these in effect to be blessings in disguise.  The curses meted out were perpetual and directed at three distinct beings.

That is how I see it anyway.

Blessings
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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2007, 05:56:21 PM »
 :cloud9: Thanks for posting all this, Doug.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

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Re: The fall and return to Eden....
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2007, 08:30:54 PM »
Hi again Seeker

You said

Quote
The parts from verse 13 onwards cannot be referring to Adam.  You really need to read this as allegorical to see it any different to the context in which it is mentioned as I cannot see Adam being this character

Why would you say that? Not even dealing with this issue of God not being the author of confusion yet having Him change who is being talked about without any revealing word verse 13 is what has condemned man to this very day.
 This was when Adam became "as one of us" and took council in himself rather then remain obedient to God. Whenever man takes council in himself over God he is elevating himself to be over God....... remember the line about should the pottery ask the potter 'why"?. This clearly identifies Adam when he sinned by choosing to follow the will of Eve (the flesh where she "soul" came from" instead of the Word of God)

I also have to disagree with the following

Quote
the partaking of the fruit was only the sin when Adam partook.

IMO Paul makes Eve's guilt very clear and is why a man does not have to physically commit adultery to be charged with it

1Tim2: 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

A transgression is a violation of the law and any violation of the God's Law is a sin.

Sin causes an immediate separation from God and I would think that Adam still being "sinless" had to have seen it but still chose the woman (soul) from him over the woman who had the seed that would be at enmity with Satan. We must keep in mind that there already was a woman around because Adam was declared by God in the beginning to be a "LIVING SOUL".  A "living soul" can only be the female part of man and is never male . This "LIVING SOUL" is the woman with the seed from God that will be at enmity with Satan whom Eve was already in compliance with.

She is the woman that is reserved in Heaven and is your inheritance. (1Pet1:4) She is the virgin that Paul exhorts to keep and Jesus condemns those who have let her go when He accuses them of 'having lost the love of their youth" She is the one we need to become one with to produce the manchild of revelations. The soul of man can never ever produce (see again 1Tim2:14) it because the Holy Spirit will never commit adultery and become one with a woman who is not a virgin. This is the Law of God on whom the High Priest may marry and He will not violate his own Law.

Both the soul and spirit of man are unclean because of sin that is a noun and not just a verb. However in the presence of God and His Righteousness (inside the garden) no sin is ever allowed and it would kill the High Priest on the Day of Atonement. To be forgiven of our sins allows us to still come before God through the atonement and presence of the Holy Spirit in us but we are still unclean in our soul because of the laws of clean and unclean. The soul of man has laid down and received the seed of man that has submitted to satan and will always be unclean and unable to enter into heaven. The soul of man is what caused Paul to peak of being alive to the world but dead to God.

However the good news is  just as we received a soul from Eve that became "our soul" we may receive the bride from above (Re 21 1-4) to become "our soul" in place of the one we were born with. She may become one with the Holy Spirit that is our source of life IF we are crucified with Christ and risen with Him by the power of God (Holy Spirit). Then the life that comes from us is without sin and that my Dear Brother in Christ is how we may become obedient and be Holy as He is Holy.......... something that 99% say that man cannot be.

Blessings

Doug