Author Topic: The Deadly Error of the Universalist  (Read 4331 times)

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Offline jabcat

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The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« on: February 18, 2009, 10:51:46 AM »
I've run across these guys' site a few times, and came across it again today.  They believe in ultimate reconciliation, but wow!  What a message!  :Chinscratch:

Here are excerpts from a letter to them from a fellow named Rodger and their replies to him. At issue was apparently  an article/tract "The Path of Truth" had put out, entitled "The Deadly Error of the Universalist--The Doctrine of Universal Salvation Is Not Salvation".  In it, they take on Charles Slagle and Gary Amirault, among others (I'd guess they would include pretty much all of us here  :doh:).  I've got my own thoughts, but what's your take on these guys and this "ministry"?


Excerpts from the website, The Path of Truth; Victor Hafichuck and Paul Cohen


http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehoodexposed/universalism/doctrineuniversalsalvationnotsalvation.htm


"To blame a doctrine or any external thing is to fall short of complete repentance and peace. While you preach the reconciliation of all things (a true doctrine) and the fallacy of eternal damnation (also true)...."

"When you have exhausted yourself in searching for fulfillment and finding none, and realize you still lack, it may be your time for God to reveal Himself to you. Jesus Christ (Yehoshuah HaMashiach/Yeshua/Yahweh), the Creator, and He only, can fill your void."

"The main point of "The Deadly Error of the Universalists" is that they have perverted the gospel, leaving out the vital element of the cross, which is not just a historical fact indicating the salvation of all, but is experienced in the here and now, as Jesus spoke of taking up one's cross to follow Him. He said that was the only way to follow Him, in fact. You can find that in the Bible.
The reason you do not understand or know how to respond to this is because you lack it yourself. You are not saved. The work has been done, yes. No man could do it, yes. We rejoice to know it, yes. But not all have entered into the covenant of His blood. You have not entered into the covenant. That is why we labor in these things, as by the Lord, because He is yet working to that end."


"The "prophecy" he [Charles Slagle] gave is a lie, from his own carnal mind that impersonates God. The man does not know God. If he did, he would not prophesy falsely."

"We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of "Tentmaker," and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God, although truths they happen to preach will serve others well if they receive them, as apparently with you."

"You ask us about Ray Prinzing. In my spiritual journey in the '70's and '80's, I enquired of the Lord concerning many men and organizations (churches), starting with Billy Graham immediately after we received the Spirit of God. He has been faithful to answer on all matters, Rodger. Yes, Ray Prinzing too is not a genuine servant of God. I too heard his tapes, and I too can testify that he has preached truths, but the Lord revealed to me that he was very religious, steeped in his own righteousness, stubborn in all his ways (that is why he suffered so many tragedies and hardships, contrary to God's promises of Deuteronomy 28 and this one):"

"Nevertheless, we do not condemn you. We do speak as God, because we are sent of Him, and speak that which He has revealed to us. You are answering to Him even as we speak, Rodger."

?!  :Chinscratch:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 11:57:50 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

SpiritDriven

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 11:13:32 AM »
I am left asking why they do not seem to recognise in the word of God, that God has shut up all in disobedience that he may show Mercy to all.

Different degrees of disobedience...have they recognised that ?

It does seem as if they are Judging others as well....and therfore will be Judged themselves....

Surely our place is to announce the Good News, and not Judge others over it...?

Peace

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 11:29:45 AM »
To pronounce a person "unsaved" to the world seems like an anti-Christ thing to do.  This is the kind of thing you find in fundamentalist churches that thrive in fear and using fear to control others.  In other words, they demonize their brothers.  I too think they will be judged in the manner they have been judging.
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Offline Tony N

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 01:30:01 PM »
Jabcat, I went to that web site and copied this which they state:

"But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

"Their error is this: The Universalists disregard the God-ordained principles and requirements by which one gets to the place of which they preach, which is salvation and peace with God and man. Therefore they never get there themselves, and neither do their listeners who follow them.

"How do the Universalists disregard God's ordained principles and ways? In a nutshell, they preach that since God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and the work was finished on the cross, it is only a matter of mentally assenting to this fact that will automatically usher one into the reality and victory of spiritual life of the Lord Jesus Christ. The cross of Christ, which represents the God-ordained personal requirements by which we die to the world and are raised again by His resurrection life to truly have those things, is thereby eliminated.

"Without the personal cross there is no victory or resurrection to life, here or in the next world. Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven to a pearl of great price, for which a man sold all that he had. There is a cost of admission. The gospel preached by the Universalists is one of bloodless identification with Christ, which is not possible."
(end of quote)

What I find interesting is that they quote Galatians 1:8 above, yet they are guilty of doing the very think Paul warned against in that passage. They are bringing a different gospel beside the one Paul brought to the nations.

We are not saved by works. We are not saved by "persevering to the end" as the Circumcision believers must do.

Also, Paul always connects Christ's obedience to the cross, His death, His blood to the saving of all mankind. It is based upon what Christ has accomplished, not what we accomplish. Look at Romans 5:18,19, Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6 and see how Paul always links what Christ did to the salvation of all. He never links it to what we do.
That is Paul's gospel. The Galatians were mixing works of the law with Paul's gospel. That was not Paul's gospel. The people quoted above by me and you are doing what the Galatians were doing. Hence, they are the ones guilty of bringing a different gospel.

I don't condemn them even should they condemn us. They just are not at the level of maturity yet which God is bringing every believer to eventually.

But we should "let them be anathema," which is to say just let them be devoted to their destructive ways.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 03:30:41 PM »
 :cloud9: I'm left wondering what Charles Slagle's prophecy was. Anybody know?

I understand what they're saying about blood covenant and there being a type works to accomplish in relation to the cross we are to bear, so I can't fault that observation, because that is what He has shown me too. Faith without works is dead.

The rest of it is coming through a spirit of condemnation, obviously, which is difficult for me to even read, because it grieves my Spirit. My  :2c:  Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

martincisneros

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 03:43:46 PM »
There used to be a commercial campaign in the United States that sorta fits these accusations against Gary and Charlie.  I'm not sure if there were ever any international equivalents to these commercials, so sorry to anybody that can't relate.  Then again just about everything's on YouTube that you can't even imagine would be on there, so who knows?  One phrase comes to mind, from years ago:

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 03:52:53 PM »


Actually this is something I had wondered about along the lines of sodom and babylon.  In Ezekiel 16 where it says Sodom has done wrong but not as much as the mother and daughters  (mother whore and harlot daughters)

The system of religion is mainly what it is talking about (to me).   We have Christendom who teaches Gods love as a righteousness that will keep someone in a state of hopelessness for all eternity.

We have the beliefs that love but center more on self.  We have the biblical beliefs of all saved, but then continually try to pry and debate one another to death for the "right" way that God will save everyone.


I've had enough, lol.   This past week has been a real eye opener for me.

Gods love is sufficient for all, if thats not good enough, then we're wasting our time bothering to care.



Offline Tony N

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 04:38:44 PM »
There used to be a commercial campaign in the United States that sorta fits these accusations against Gary and Charlie.  I'm not sure if there were ever any international equivalents to these commercials, so sorry to anybody that can't relate.  Then again just about everything's on YouTube that you can't even imagine would be on there, so who knows?  One phrase comes to mind, from years ago:

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE...

Don't forget:

GOT MILK? :laughing7:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

IceDash

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 04:46:14 PM »
Jabcat, I went to that web site and copied this which they state:

"But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

"Their error is this: The Universalists disregard the God-ordained principles and requirements by which one gets to the place of which they preach, which is salvation and peace with God and man. Therefore they never get there themselves, and neither do their listeners who follow them.

"How do the Universalists disregard God's ordained principles and ways? In a nutshell, they preach that since God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and the work was finished on the cross, it is only a matter of mentally assenting to this fact that will automatically usher one into the reality and victory of spiritual life of the Lord Jesus Christ. The cross of Christ, which represents the God-ordained personal requirements by which we die to the world and are raised again by His resurrection life to truly have those things, is thereby eliminated.

"Without the personal cross there is no victory or resurrection to life, here or in the next world. Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven to a pearl of great price, for which a man sold all that he had. There is a cost of admission. The gospel preached by the Universalists is one of bloodless identification with Christ, which is not possible."
(end of quote)

What I find interesting is that they quote Galatians 1:8 above, yet they are guilty of doing the very think Paul warned against in that passage. They are bringing a different gospel beside the one Paul brought to the nations.

We are not saved by works. We are not saved by "persevering to the end" as the Circumcision believers must do.

Also, Paul always connects Christ's obedience to the cross, His death, His blood to the saving of all mankind. It is based upon what Christ has accomplished, not what we accomplish. Look at Romans 5:18,19, Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6 and see how Paul always links what Christ did to the salvation of all. He never links it to what we do.
That is Paul's gospel. The Galatians were mixing works of the law with Paul's gospel. That was not Paul's gospel. The people quoted above by me and you are doing what the Galatians were doing. Hence, they are the ones guilty of bringing a different gospel.

I don't condemn them even should they condemn us. They just are not at the level of maturity yet which God is bringing every believer to eventually.

But we should "let them be anathema," which is to say just let them be devoted to their destructive ways.


lol, this is creepy, my pastor talk and preach about this last sunday on galatians 1:8, when I read this, I get goosebump, is the lord speaking through me like a foreshadow?

lol anyway...creppy.

Yes I read the website, they just read only what they used to preach or taught by past preacher with the same verse over and over and over, they alyway used context over context and the pracher favorite's motto: "because the bible said so!" (I hate that lol, I do love the bible but when they said "the bible said so, you must do this or God is not happy" is something making me angry, not at God, but at people, they treating God like he can't help us if we don't help ourselve, God can do anything, nothing is impossible to God, just like matthew 19:26 said so!

Paul is the preacher right? How come Paul didn't go around differant locations preaching "hell" or "if you don't please the lord, you will get burn!"

the preacher are doing the oppsitie of what Paul doing, even peter and tim didn't preach hellfire! So why our preacher preached hellfire today? was it because paul and peter are not Jesus but Jesus mention hell and preacher listen to him more than paul because Jesus is the real king, not paul but they listen to paul to do good and to jesus? it very confusing

I just tired of preacher like Billy, Pat and others, they are filthy rich people and lived longer than us lol.

Offline CHB

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 05:57:57 PM »
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
I've had enough, lol.   This past week has been a real eye opener for me.

Paul, what did you mean by this statement?

I think these believers just haven't been shown all the truth yet and neither have we. We are all wrong on certain points.

My personal opinion... and that doesn't mean it is always right,... is:

We all only know what the Lord has given us. We shouldn't judge others no matter what they believe. If you look at every denomination, each one of them has some truth. I have learned from a few of them myself.

We should just pray for ourselves and others that God would give us all wisdom and understanding to live a peaceful life while we are here. LOVE is the main ingredient.  :HeartThrob:

CHB

Offline Doc

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 09:41:50 PM »
Jabcat, I went to that web site and copied this which they state:

"But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

"Their error is this: The Universalists disregard the God-ordained principles and requirements by which one gets to the place of which they preach, which is salvation and peace with God and man. Therefore they never get there themselves, and neither do their listeners who follow them.

"How do the Universalists disregard God's ordained principles and ways? In a nutshell, they preach that since God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and the work was finished on the cross, it is only a matter of mentally assenting to this fact that will automatically usher one into the reality and victory of spiritual life of the Lord Jesus Christ. The cross of Christ, which represents the God-ordained personal requirements by which we die to the world and are raised again by His resurrection life to truly have those things, is thereby eliminated.

"Without the personal cross there is no victory or resurrection to life, here or in the next world. Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven to a pearl of great price, for which a man sold all that he had. There is a cost of admission. The gospel preached by the Universalists is one of bloodless identification with Christ, which is not possible."
(end of quote)

What I find interesting is that they quote Galatians 1:8 above, yet they are guilty of doing the very think Paul warned against in that passage. They are bringing a different gospel beside the one Paul brought to the nations.

We are not saved by works. We are not saved by "persevering to the end" as the Circumcision believers must do.

Also, Paul always connects Christ's obedience to the cross, His death, His blood to the saving of all mankind. It is based upon what Christ has accomplished, not what we accomplish. Look at Romans 5:18,19, Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6 and see how Paul always links what Christ did to the salvation of all. He never links it to what we do.
That is Paul's gospel. The Galatians were mixing works of the law with Paul's gospel. That was not Paul's gospel. The people quoted above by me and you are doing what the Galatians were doing. Hence, they are the ones guilty of bringing a different gospel.

I don't condemn them even should they condemn us. They just are not at the level of maturity yet which God is bringing every believer to eventually.

But we should "let them be anathema," which is to say just let them be devoted to their destructive ways.

Good observations, Tony.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Doc

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 09:44:10 PM »
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
I've had enough, lol.   This past week has been a real eye opener for me.

Paul, what did you mean by this statement?

I think these believers just haven't been shown all the truth yet and neither have we. We are all wrong on certain points.

My personal opinion... and that doesn't mean it is always right,... is:

We all only know what the Lord has given us. We shouldn't judge others no matter what they believe. If you look at every denomination, each one of them has some truth. I have learned from a few of them myself.

We should just pray for ourselves and others that God would give us all wisdom and understanding to live a peaceful life while we are here. LOVE is the main ingredient.  :HeartThrob:

CHB

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God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 10:04:13 PM »
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
I've had enough, lol.   This past week has been a real eye opener for me.

Paul, what did you mean by this statement?


If we are not to judge, then don't judge me.


Offline CHB

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 12:36:00 AM »
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
I've had enough, lol.   This past week has been a real eye opener for me.

Paul, what did you mean by this statement?


If we are not to judge, then don't judge me.


Paul,

What do you mean don't judge me?. The reason I ask this was it sounded like you were leaving the forum.  Sorry.

CHB

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 12:47:47 AM »


No, I'm not going to leave.   Sorry for the misunderstanding

Jerm

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 01:32:03 AM »
My first thoughts:  Lordship Salvation + Universal Reconciliation

Offline jabcat

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 02:23:50 AM »
can you expound on that Jerm?  thanks.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2009, 11:11:54 AM »
Just found this and thougth I might reply to this. As I understand it - this ministry believes in UR but has also made it their job description to tell everyone else that they've got it right and everybody else got it wrong.

I went through the website and didn't like most of what I read. There is some truth there but also a strong sectarian spirit present. If somebody has got the time to list up pages of names to tell you what they are doing wrong than these people have to much time at hand and should maybe spend more time out there and doing the works of Jesus - leading people to the Father, healing the sick, casting out demons, feeding the poor, and simply just loving people into the Kingdom.

I am sure that if this people read my post  it will be twisted by them just as everyone elses writings on their site. (Even though they might be right in some cases, well I don't know everyone personally. However, Jesus told us how to correct a brother and picking people apart on the internet was not part of it.) There are so many contradictions and illogical statements on this site its unbelievable that those writing for this ministry don't recognice it for themselves. Charlie's prophecy is actually a very good examople and you can check it out here. Just scroll down to the end of the article. The writer constantly contradicts himself and makes unproven statements just to proove he is right.

If I sound angry, its because I am. Those who still know me from the old days know that this is ususally not the way I converse, but this stuff is just ridiculus, as it is not about finding the truth but simply about accusing people to raise ones self-importance. I know Gary Amirault, and Charles Slagle is a very good friend of mine (those who know him know he does hear the voice of God) and I can't believe the lies these people spread about these men who have labored for decades in the word of God, by misquoting and misrepresenting them.

Actually was comes over very strong is the apparent need to see oneself as the mouthpiece of God and in the process condemning everyone who doesn't agree with them 100%. Been there, done that myself, and had it done to me more than once. Everyone who constantly quotes scripture to justify their un-Christ-like behaviour should ask themselves if they ever really listened to the Word spoken to them. Something is just wrong when I think I can determine if somebody knows the Lord just because they don't agree with me on every fine point of doctrine.

But of course, since I questioned the un-Christ-like behaviour of this ministry, the next thing will probably be that I am called upon to repent and reminded that I oppose the Lord Himself by disagreeing with these guys etc. Well, its just the old game, and I am sick and tired of people who think they are the Divine representatives on earth, sent to sort everyone out who doesn't see certain things their way. (This is not the way Jesus nor His apostles handles opposition - actually the only ones Jesus ever repuked in His earthly ministry were those who called themselves the 'seperate ones', thinking they were this special group that is above everyone else - the pharisees.)  Truly, its far easier to get someone out of Babylon than to get Babylon out of them.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 08:31:43 PM by AbbasChild »
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2009, 10:55:15 PM »
Hey, you guys reading this thread. . . could ya check out his welcome thread for me . . had a little thing drop in over there I'd like you to read.

Offline Taffy

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 08:34:25 PM »
James No worries :icon_flower:

Threads open


Sorry to those who have had their posts deleted ...

 :icon_flower:

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline jabcat

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 08:40:32 PM »
Thanks Taf...If ya see something that needs fixin', do it...I'm behind ya... :friendstu:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sheila

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 10:13:14 PM »


  Wow,Guys,

  I been reading on that site. :mshock: A cold fear for those

 under

  that religious spirit. Brings up ole nightmares of when I

  was under that same spirit..

  Already caused a divorce and a daughter alienated from her

   family. Very legalistic..won't eat pork or shrimp....

   some type of Judeo-christendom-universalists mongrel

   religion :thumbdown:

           
                                     

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 11:29:41 PM »
I'd never survive . . .I love shrimp!  Makes great catfish bait to!!

Jerm

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2009, 12:34:15 AM »
can you expound on that Jerm?  thanks.

Glady jabcat.  What I meant was that the authors of this site, although they believe in the eventual reconciliation of all, also seem to hold to Lordship Salvation.  This quote from their site, along with some others, is what gave me this impression:

"The believer is called to take up his or her cross and to work out his or her salvation with fear and trembling, that the body of sin might be destroyed presently. Whereas the true gospel calls for striving to enter in (Luke 13:24), enduring unto the end (Matt. 10:22), and paying all for the pearl of great price (Matt. 13:46), here, in the false, Universalist "gospel," there is no need for those things because it "has all been done," if only you will "realize" it. It is yours when you "acknowledge" it, whatever that means! Forget having to forsake all things; not required!"

Again, this was only my first impression (I could be wrong.)

Offline jabcat

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Re: The Deadly Error of the Universalist
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2009, 01:03:46 AM »
Thanks Jerm...although I'm one that does believe in a specific "drawn by the Spirit/believing on/calling on Jesus" event of one being saved, IMO, it's very clear that is only by grace...and that we don't then earn our way somehow through works.  As I understand it, the works are a result of the grace, and the relationship with a loving Father which we want to please...and as He continues to draw us into His will and empower us.  I believe He does bring us into obedience, disciplines us as Sons, etc., but not as a way of earning our salvation.   I won't go into great detail here, but IMO, context and who Jesus was speaking to is important in the scriptures they quote...God's blessing, James.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 01:15:07 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23