Author Topic: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"  (Read 18574 times)

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dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2010, 07:56:08 PM »
Thanks James. I'm not much of a debater either... but I think these things important.  If I am wrong, I do want someone to tell me.  The KJV of Rev. 22:14 says: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city..."

You differ as to the original and say that it says something different?

This translation stuff is important but also can be confusing.  I guess you'll believe whatever you want to believe...as I too.  So, why allow ourselves to be challenged at all?  Could it be that we want to know the Truth? Many think they already know it of course....so let's just live and let live right?  We shouldn't argue you know. Jesus wasn't really arguing with the scribes and Pharisees...and the church of His day...or was He?

I have not said that I disagree with following the Spirit...and having His Law written within our hearts....for until that happens, we may not be able to keep His commandments, because internally, we may be disagreeing with them.  The commandments are what they are....True and righteous altogether! It just seems that you guys are suggesting that we shouldn't teach them! The article you quoted implied as much.  I think that is wrong.  I think we should teach them.

dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2010, 08:02:24 PM »
Sheila wrote:
Quote
righteousness by works of law...is a trying to prove ourselves

righteous in ourselves[which is impossible] but righteousness

through GRACE and the free gift further exalts 'the

righteousness of God'.
I don't think I'm trying to "prove my own righteousness". If so, I apologize.  I thought I was trying to "Prove" the righteousness of God and His Law!

The fact remains.  Jesus said that whosoever breaks even the least command from the Law and Prophets, and teaches others so, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever keeps and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  Hopefully, you guys want to esteem what God esteems.

Peace, dmatic

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #102 on: March 18, 2010, 06:12:35 AM »
Hi dmatic
Are you speaking about feasts and sabbaths and dietary restriction? Are you talking cities of refuge for accidental murders? Is one day more important than another or are all days the same? Or may each one walk according to his or her conscience before the Lord, as Paul explained? These are the questions that come to my mind when discussing the jots and tittles.
I am honestly not sure where you are coming from- so these are honest questions, not insincere ones.

As I see it, anyone who has the Spirit of Christ understands that righteousness under grace exceeds the righteousness under law, for the law was a shadow, the fulness is Christ.

Tit 2:11-13  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

If anyone does not understand that, then they are entrapped again in their former lusts and have forgotten that they were given a new nature. No amount of law will help them. For all who have the Spirit of Christ, the law of God written on their hearts is superior to the law written in stone, for it is the very heart of His love.

Again, I am not sure where you are coming from because this discussion often veers off in different directions- I don't want to debate either- and I don't want to assume that I know where you are coming from- so I am deliberately keeping my discussions short.                     Peace, John
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dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #103 on: March 18, 2010, 10:36:40 PM »
Thank you John. You are so very right about a conversation such as this, often veering in many directions.  Your wisdom in asking the questions you did is appreciated. And, thank you also for quoting Titus 2:11-13, as it is one of my favorite passages.  I think it defines what grace is.  Grace...teaches us...to deny ungodliness and worldly (fleshly) lusts, and to live soberly and righteously and Godly in this present age! (Even now) The grace is revealed in YHWH's instructions to us, which are often called His Law.  He teaches us what is right.  When we seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness...we are seeking His definitions as to what is "right"....because every way of a man is right in his own eyes!  What we need is His instruction as to what is really right.

This, obviously, includes His Word, as revealed through Moses and the Prophets and the Writings...otherwise known as the "Old Testament".  So, I am of the opinion that not even the least of those commandments, or instructions, should be neglected as we seek His righteousness.  Therefore, whatever is written for you is to be adhered to by you...and whatever is written to me, is to be adhered to by me, as He writes His Law insid us so that it becomes a part of our nature, as you have implied.   There goes that losing of the visual after the availbale box is used up...I'll continue with another post...

dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #104 on: March 18, 2010, 10:44:12 PM »
Sorry about that, but I can't even see what I type after it disappears...
You wrote:
Quote
For all who have the Spirit of Christ, the law of God written on their hearts is superior to the law written in stone, for it is the very heart of His love.
The Law and instructions of God are what they are...Certainly it is superior to have them written within us, in our minds and heart...so that our adherence to them is part of our nature....but the commandments are the same.  The commandments given through Moses are all about His love too!  he gave us these commandments for our good, because He loves us.  This is His motivation for the grace He has revealed through Moses and the Prophets. His Love.  The epitome of grace is revealed within His Law to Moses too.  The Jubilee!  The goal of the commandments is love from a pure heart! We cannot say that we love God if we are not keeping His commandments....because at the very place where we fail, or transgress, we are not loving Him there.  The Law indeed, shows us our sin..which is a good thing, for those of us who desire to love Him with our whole heart.  Many are deceived.  They say they love God but do not the things He commands.  Today, as scripture has prophesied, many cannot endure sound doctrine, but they desire to feel good, etc. and gather around teachers that tell them what they "want" to hear. Thus, many think they are walking according to the Spirit even though they walk in thier iniquity...and in law-less-ness.

dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #105 on: March 18, 2010, 10:52:57 PM »
You asked:
Quote
Are you speaking about feasts and sabbaths and dietary restriction? Are you talking cities of refuge for accidental murders? Is one day more important than another or are all days the same?
Yes, I am speaking about the whole counsel of YHWH. Are there any specific commandments that He has revealed that you disagree with?  If so, we could talk specifically about it, or them.  Yes, I believe the Sabbath Day command is to be remembered by His people.  I think we should keep the Feasts of YHWH, instead of the many man-made traditions that have been sold to many unsuspecting seekers...Not keeping them has led to much misunderstanding by many, of all sorts of things. I believe that Paul was speaking about birthdays, for example...some honor theirs, and others treat all days the same.  I don't think there is a command either way..to honor it or not to.  But, he is not speaking of the Sabbath day in Romans 14.

This morning, I was reading Hosea 4 through chapter nine. At verse 6 of chap. 4, one of the reasons stated for lack of knowledge is because the people had forgotten the law of God. 9:7 was also noteworthy...but I need to depart now.  Hopefully this gives you a better idea as to from where I come.

Peace, doug

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #106 on: March 19, 2010, 07:21:05 AM »
Yep, I see where you are coming from now, peace, John
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dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2010, 11:02:31 PM »
Yep, I see where you are coming from now, peace, John

Good one.  I fell for your trap?  I thought you were sincere. My bad.

peace to you too.....dmatic


Offline eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2010, 06:15:25 AM »
Not sure what you mean about a trap dmatic.... I appreciate your honesty and now I believe I understand your perspective. Grace and peace to you in the name of God our Father and the Lord Jesus, John
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline peacemaker

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2010, 09:02:46 AM »
Yep, I see where you are coming from now, peace, John
Good one.  I fell for your trap?  I thought you were sincere. My bad.

peace to you too.....dmatic

"Giving and receiving; both require open hands."

peacemaker


dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2010, 09:29:44 PM »

"Giving and receiving; both require open hands."

peacemaker



I like that.  Thank you.  My response may have come from a misunderstanding.  If so, please forgive me.  I, earlier, had written:
Quote
If I am wrong, I do want someone to tell me.

It seemed to me that I was being given the brush-off.  After investing some time composing an answer to eaglesway's question, i thought it, frankly, rude, to answer so succinctly, without follow-up.  Maybe you had nothing more to say.  But, no explanation was given....kindof like...OK...see you later...

May I conclude, then, from your silence, that you agree with my perspective? Or, shall I await a challenge to it?
Thank you.  I sincerely do want to know if I am wrong.

Peace, dmatic

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2010, 07:40:41 AM »
Hi dmatic,
   I was not purposely giving you the brush off. I was under the impression our exchanges began with you asking me to clarify some statements I had made, which I thought I had done. When I was reading your responses, I was beginning to feel like I did not know for sure where you were coming from, so I asked for some details. After your last response I felt clear on the matter, and I figured you understood where I was coming from also (since I wrote several pretty comprehensive posts explaining myself)- whether you agreed with me or not.
    I am not interested in pursuing discussions about the difference in our perspectives concerning the law of God that would go much beyond what we have shared because I  have said mostly all I have to say on that previously in this thread. I genuinely do, however, hope we have fellowship and discussion in the future -and I do understand why you thought I was giving you the brush off after re-reading my post. Really after examining it I think maybe I was brushing off the subject matter a bit, but no offence was intended by me towards you and I was in no way offended by you. Peace, John
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2010, 10:06:13 PM »
thank you John....May God bless you.

Peace, dmatic

Yab Yum

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2010, 12:08:46 AM »
Indeed the Spirit is willing   but
 
  the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox  :winkgrin:
  

  did we  not see here in  Matt 26 :41  just how Jesus explained to Peter
 not to sleep in sorrow his flesh being  tempted ? and the key was to watch and pray in the Spirit to the Father because the flesh is weakkkkkkk!!
 
  and Jesus Himself shows us the weakness of his own flesh to let the cup of suffering pass  , yet His desire in the Spirit was  as the Father chose His course in obedience ....
 
  
39 He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."
 40 Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!"
 42 Then Jesus left them a second time and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away[g] unless I drink it, your will be done." 43 When he returned to them again, he found them sleeping, for they couldn't keep their eyes open.

 44 So he went to pray a third time, saying the same things again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said, "Go ahead and sleep. Have your rest. But look—the time has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Up, let's be going. Look, my betrayer is here!"

 
 I am starting to get this  with the NLT , just went out and bought a  hard copy at Wally world   today ...    hee hee  , very helpful .
  
 you know i do love the KJV  and  keep it to look up all the strongs and greek Hebrew stuff , but this "  new tongue / language " New Living Translation  is  much easier to grasp ,
 
 Thanks all and you dmatic , for keeping this thread  going  :icon_flower:

NLT is just plain fun to read.

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2010, 12:42:12 AM »


NLT is just plain fun to read.

     Hi YY,
 It is !  Reminds me of conversations on the forum , just plain speak !
 
  :icon_flower:
 http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-Living-Translation-NLT-Bible/

     they have many different ones / translations to look into on  Gateway .. gospelcom
 
   good stuff , been using for years  this on line site   :)

Bethany

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2010, 11:04:22 PM »
Good works are a fruit of salvation- not salvation in and of itself. Works of the law are a result of fear of death/destruction (those who have no faith).

Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #116 on: July 08, 2010, 12:32:53 AM »
I think that view is consistent with how many believers in universal salvation, having rightly ditched the concept of hell from their thinking, interpret "salvation" as being forgiveness of sin. In my studies on the Biblical teaching of salvation, I have come to believe instead that while God's forgiveness is inherent in his plan of salvation, that salvation itself is not just the forgiveness of sin, but the HEALING of sin. In fact, the Greek word for salvation can be traced back to the concept of healing. And through His Angel to Joseph, God said that Jesus would not only forgive, but actually SAVE his people "FROM their sin."

So, James actually literally says that when faith results in good works, THEN salvation is realized, not salvation first, then good works. His statements have caused much theological debate and theories. However, if we look at it practically, what I have said, not only harmonizes James' literal words and phrasing, but makes common sense.

Take alcoholism as an example and filter it through James' words that we are not saved by faith alone.

If someone is an alcoholic, will faith alone save him from alcoholism? Of course not! An alcoholic, to be saved from alcoholism must also STOP drinking. That's the good work that stems from faith that saves him from his sin. He is not saved from alcoholism BEFORE that good work, but after.

And the Bible says that our healing is not of ourselves, but is by Grace. It is God that causes this to happen, as faith comes, and grace works within to cause the good work, altogether resulting in the salvation/healing.

Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #117 on: July 08, 2010, 12:45:26 AM »
Additionally, it is very important to note why James mentions Rahab when he makes his statement about good works and salvation. She was cooperating with the Israelites to overthrow the city. She was not saved, therefore, by following the Law, and therefore her works were not "works of the Law." She was saved by trusting God and following through with her promise to do what He wanted. THAT is the difference between works of the Law and Good Works. Good works are built on trusting God by faith, and works of the Law are built on self-determination and having one's "own righteousness" which is as dirty rags.

SQ

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #118 on: July 08, 2010, 12:55:00 AM »
Man, the first creation, is capable of incredibly good works and horrendous evil works; the fruits of the tree they ate from.
Not! to be confused, though, with the works of Satan; those works of Satan are completely different.
He stands as the accuser of man to God.


Well gee thanks....  this post could not have come at a better time for me.
I was confusing the tree of knowledge of good and evil with works of Satan. :cloud9:

Offline jabcat

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #119 on: July 08, 2010, 01:18:12 AM »
Seth, I agree with much of what you have to say here.  I'd guess your example would apply to any of our sins, i.e., lying, stealing, judging, pridefulness, etc....many become drunk who aren't necessarily alcoholics, but we all (including me) have our own sin(s) with which to struggle (overcome by His grace, mercy, and power)...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #120 on: July 08, 2010, 01:23:49 AM »
and I agree, forgiveness is a huge part of that, healing comes with it...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #121 on: July 08, 2010, 01:35:08 AM »
Yeah, that is why salvation from sin (in total) is a life-long journey.  :thumbsup:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #122 on: July 08, 2010, 01:50:12 AM »
 :cloud9: Healing literally means, to make whole. So making the parts whole, is healing. The spiritual has to be dealt with before the natural is manifested.

It's the "reverse" of them taking the thought from the serpent (spiritual), and the result was physical or natural. Not a coincidence the first article of armor is the helmet (thoughts must be under covering) of salvation. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #123 on: July 08, 2010, 01:55:05 AM »
Yeah, that is why salvation from sin (in total) is a life-long journey.  :thumbsup:

Yep it is.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #124 on: July 08, 2010, 03:43:16 AM »
"Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works" walks hand in hand with Jesus saying, "I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was naked and you clothed me, enter into the joy of your Lord".

This is in accordance with the "new commandment" He gave- that we love one another.

Love is not perfected in keeping laws- but all the law is fulfilled in love, "no greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend".

In this renewed covenant in Christ, love is the horse and the commandments are the cart.

Even under the old covenant it was so- read Isaiah 58 again, or Psalm 51.

Love fulfills the law. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for all of us through "perfect love"-laying down His life for His friends. The requirements of the law are fulfilled in us as soon as we enter the covenant of His love.

"....against such, their is no law".

What did the deeds of the good Samaritan have to do with law? He did not know the law. Yet the Pharisee and the Levite, who knew, did not fulfill the law because they did not walk in love. The parable was told to explain to seekers how God judges and discerns the heart. As in Romans 1 & 2 where Paul explans that it is the doers of the law(the universal law of love) who are justified, not the hearers- so that those who did not "know" the law, but fulfilled it because the love of God was working in them as righteousness apart from written laws, written on their hearts will be justified in their own conscience before God on the Day. Peace, John
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com