Author Topic: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"  (Read 20937 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2010, 08:28:17 PM »
What's the  :thumbsup: for Sheila?  :laughing7:

In case you agree with what I wrote: I don't understand what I wrote.
In case you thought it was a joke: It wasn't.

Seriously it's a contradiction for me. A paradox if you wish.

According to (changes) in a/the law I can be a criminal or a good guy.
I can understand that.

If I have a kind heart and a pure soul I'm a good guy. If I have a black soul and and a cold heart I'm a bad guy.
I can understand that too.

But the verse states: I'm bad because I've black soul. But luckily it's not my soul. That the same as saying Sheila is a thief because someone in her street is in jail so Sheila is no thief.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2010, 08:53:46 PM »
Indeed the Spirit is willing   but
 
  the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox  :winkgrin:
  

  did we  not see here in  Matt 26 :41  just how Jesus explained to Peter
 not to sleep in sorrow his flesh being  tempted ? and the key was to watch and pray in the Spirit to the Father because the flesh is weakkkkkkk!!
 
  and Jesus Himself shows us the weakness of his own flesh to let the cup of suffering pass  , yet His desire in the Spirit was  as the Father chose His course in obedience ....
 
  
39 He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."
 40 Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!"
 42 Then Jesus left them a second time and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away[g] unless I drink it, your will be done." 43 When he returned to them again, he found them sleeping, for they couldn't keep their eyes open.

 44 So he went to pray a third time, saying the same things again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said, "Go ahead and sleep. Have your rest. But look—the time has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Up, let's be going. Look, my betrayer is here!"

 
 I am starting to get this  with the NLT , just went out and bought a  hard copy at Wally world   today ...    hee hee  , very helpful .
  
 you know i do love the KJV  and  keep it to look up all the strongs and greek Hebrew stuff , but this "  new tongue / language " New Living Translation  is  much easier to grasp ,
 
 Thanks all and you dmatic , for keeping this thread  going  :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 08:58:18 PM by rosered »
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Online eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2010, 09:04:15 PM »
The blame has been shifted! As it should be :bigGrin:. "Who shall deliver me from this body of death"?

Rom 7:24-25  Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Paul defines our dilemma. Even as we try to do good we often find evil with us. This evil is often the mixture in our motives. What Paul is describing is chaos, formless and void. But when the Logos comes, "Let there be light", there is a separation made- Light and darkness. When we first believe, the living word divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the thoughts and motives of the heart. Sin in the flesh is condemned in the body of Christ on the cross and we "enter in" to that death by faith. We also receive resurrection life in the spirit, in the new creation in the inner man, "Christ in you the hope of glory". But it is a seed. It is a measure of yeast in a bushel of meal. It must grow as we grow in grace. It is also a stewardship, we grow as we walk in the Spirit and Abide in Christ. In the meantime, we find that "we all stumble in many ways." Yet, we are in the fight between light and darkness as servants of the light, so we bring our stumblings to the light. The enemy within must "Be reckoned dead", that old man who was slain at repentance and buried at baptism would beckon us to return to Egypt. The challenge is to press on in the wilderness, where "every unbelieving member must perish", till we find ourselves ready to cross the Jordan and take possession of the promises.

  "We have these great and precious promises that by them we might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust, therefore applying all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue....."
 
 For everyone whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...

So as we have already been judged for sin, if we have beheld through the eye of faith, the serpent on the pole, the sin that was killing us, slain in the body of Christ crucified. The bite/poison/sting of sin is healed. Now where as we were once serving sin unto greater sin, now we are serving righteousness unto greater (progressive) righteousness (Ro 6). As the sharper than any two edged sword of the quick and active word continues to divide,  growing us through trial, the spirit man ascends,experientially seated in the heavenlies, taking possession of the promised land(divine nature). The old manis "mortified", "reckoned dead", "put off".



Eph 4:20-24  But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.


We do not conquer him by law and works, he will defeat us every time in that war. We conquer him through the separation that has made- "reckoning him dead". Understanding that it is no longer I that sin, but the old man, sin working in my flesh. I reaffirm my agreement with God in this process of growing in grace by "confession". Bringing it to God. Laying it at the altar. "I do not agree with this", "forgive me", "change me", "heal me." I grow in the victory this forgiveness and healing affords by "walking in the Spirit". The more I walk in the Spirit the less I fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If I am under condemnation I will lose the victory, back under law, back in chaos.

Rom 8:3-11  For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,  that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.   For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Jn 1:8-9  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 2:1-2  My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!! There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!!!!

Sometimes as little ones, babes in Christ, we are often availing ourselves of this forgiveness and propitiation as we learn humility, which is the key to growing in grace( a haughty spirit comes before a fall, you will teach me truth in the inner man, a broken and a contrite heart you will never cast out). The blood is sufficient, though the lessons be hard. As we get set free from "self" righteousness, into the righteousness of Christ which is by faith, then the fruitful works which are by love and the manifestation of the divine nature spring forth as "fruit of the Spirit"(over these things there is no law).

Rev 22:1-5  And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb:  in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, is a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations;  and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him, and they shall see His face, and His name is upon their foreheads, and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign--to the ages of the ages.









« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:11:10 PM by eaglesway »
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2010, 09:06:18 PM »
again back to Romans 8 for the explaination
  the Bible has the answers that answer  when the questions are  raised
 
 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
 5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. 8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

 and the Law of Liberty is the SPIRIT teaching correcting leading  guiding and helping us grow in Gods truth and Grace  Jesus Christ ...
 imo  of course ,,
 the law of moses is the    schoolmaster part that exposes the sin and shame to bring us all to repentance and CHANGE    for the better!  that leads us to Christ  , its all about Him .. and what He  has done and will do for you on a personal level  you have never got  from anyone before  
 
imo , but willing to listen to others as well  :thumbsup:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2010, 09:07:15 PM »
Mmm, it will cost me a few grand to travel to Wally World.
And I hate to long queues at Disney world.

Quote
Indeed the Spirit is willing   but the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox
 
Not really. If flesh + spirit is me then I'm the sinner.
If flesh and spirit is separate only one is the sinner.

Hummm :mblush:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2010, 09:15:40 PM »
 
  That is a really good post Eagleway / John
 
  I do  agree that  Paul was showing us the dilema
 
 for  me it is  the  seperation  noted the mind  where the spirit dwells is already captive of the Lord its the Body / flesh that has to go on into  with the soul to be complete its a  3  part saving grace work of the Lord
  to me  
 when those whom dwell in the heavens   they have the same mind as    as the Spirit  and are Christ 'possesion
 
  but  woe to the earth and sea   the  devil has come down to you  and he only has a short time
 
  the flesh/ mortal bodies  only  lives maybe  80 years more or less

 to me the sea could be souls ?? its compared to many nations tongues  peoples the life in the soul seat of appetites   what we crave and desire
 
  if than it is the desires in the Holy Spirit will not the Lord  judge our hearts and mercifully  save us  to completion / perfection than ?
 
  :icon_flower:
  
Jesus is the reward  !!

Online eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2010, 09:19:56 PM »
In the context of Romans 8, the flesh is the old man, reckoned dead. The spirit is the new man. I am not my flesh, in this case. I in fact, as the new man, am in a spiritual war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The spirit lusts(for dominion over me) against the flesh and the flesh lusts(for dominon over me) against the spirit, so that I cannot always to the things I ought. As I grow in grace, "Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord", I am transformed, renewed in the spirit of my mind, into the new man who is reigning through the righteousness of Christ. I cannot reform myself- that is the futility of the law. Until I see the separation between the old man who I reckoned dead on a cross through faith in Jesus, and me- the new man created in Jesus Christ for good works (but works that spring up as fruit out of grace and love), I can never be free from condemnation, and I buzz around like a fly with one wing.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2010, 09:24:52 PM »
Mmm, it will cost me a few grand to travel to Wally World.
And I hate to long queues at Disney world.

Quote
Indeed the Spirit is willing   but the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox
 
Not really. If flesh + spirit is me then I'm the sinner.
If flesh and spirit is separate only one is the sinner.

Hummm :mblush:
read on my dear friend  WW
  it seems the devil has come down to this ! and will not prevail against Gods will that we be saved there is where your faith  that precious faith in what God can do for you and what Jesus Christ has already done  that  wins!!
 
 rev 12 :12  
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
      And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!/ mind of Christ this obedience and hearing what the Spirit is saying with a new heart to understand      But terror will come on the earth and the sea,
      for the devil has come down to you in great anger,
      knowing that he has little time."

 13 When the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon[c] for a time, times, and half a time.
your woman is your soul and Jesus is your new husband  He is the head of authority  in your  new  submissive role the old man adam  died   making the new husband you are now joined to  Christ
 
  making our bodies fruitful to bear godly offspring  which is good deeds /works of the Spirit   not the flesh anylonger  old adam is dust for the serpent / satan to chow down on /eat  to nothingness  

  just my opinion , or how I see things  :icon_flower:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2010, 09:25:43 PM »
In the context of Romans 8, the flesh is the old man, reckoned dead. The spirit is the new man. I am not my flesh, in this case. I in fact, as the new man, am in a spiritual war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The spirit lusts(for dominion over me) against the flesh and the flesh lusts(for dominon over me) against the spirit, so that I cannot always to the things I ought. As I grow in grace, "Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord", I am transformed, renewed in the spirit of my mind, into the new man who is reigning through the righteousness of Christ. I cannot reform myself- that is the futility of the law. Until I see the separation between the old man who I reckoned dead on a cross through faith in Jesus, and me- the new man created in Jesus Christ for good works (but works that spring up as fruit out of grace and love), I can never be free from condemnation, and I buzz around like a fly with one wing.
  YES !!! :thumbsup:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Online eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2010, 09:31:19 PM »
This is  cool, :) almost like a chat. I believe the tools are there through grace and the enlightment of the word to come, "to a mature man" in Christ. Not that we are perfect, as Paul said to the Phillipians, but to the point where we are "reigning in life" as overcomers. Speaking the truth in love and growing up in all aspects unto the Head, even Christ. I think we don't see it as we would like to because it can only be fulfilled in the body of Christ, when it is functioning as the fulness of Him who fills all in all, under His headship. As we all know, this is difficult today, because the body is scattered, or cancerous, or whatever it is, and we rarely find that kind of fellowship that allows the grace of God to come to full fruition, as described in Ephesians 4. Of course, thats just my opinion.

Eph 3:14-21  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,  of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,  that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,  that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,   that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,  to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled--to all the fulness of God;  and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us, to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

OHHHHH GLORRRYYY!!!!!  :dsunny:

Sorry, every now and then I get a little pentecostal HAHAHA, but it is SO glorious.

Eph 4:8-16  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?   he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--   and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,   unto the perfecting(maturing/completing/finishing) of the saints, for a work of ministration(the ministry of reconciliation), for a building up of the body of the Christ,  till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ, that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray,   and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head--the Christ;  from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2010, 09:35:21 PM »
When God made Adam  in the beginning  they wer male and female  
 the  male / female soul nephesh
feminine  noun ...the old man has to die in order for the soul and body to be peserved blameless
 
 
1Thess 5  14 Brothers and sisters, we urge you to warn those who are lazy. Encourage those who are timid. Take tender care of those who are weak. Be patient with everyone.

 15 See that no one pays back evil for evil, but always try to do good to each other and to all people.

 16 Always be joyful. 17 Never stop praying. 18 Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.

 19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit. 20 Do not scoff at prophecies, 21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. 22 Stay away from every kind of evil.

Paul's Final Greetings
 23 Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. 24 God will make this happen, for he who calls you is faithful. 25 Dear brothers and sisters, pray for us.

 26 Greet all the brothers and sisters with Christian love.[c]

 27 I command you in the name of the Lord to read this letter to all the brothers and sisters.

 28 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2010, 09:36:22 PM »
1 Corinthians 15:10
No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.


The same Paul who wrote Romans 7 wrote that intentionally contradicting thought. When Paul says "NOT I" he says that in concert with "I" to show a deeper level of influence so influential and invisible, sovereign and powerful as to both preserve and also NEGATE his "I." This is showing how much of a vessel we are to spiritual influences beyond our meager power as humans, and places the glory of salvation from sin on God, who is working behind the scenes to empower and transform us even at the times we think we are doing it ourselves.

Quote from: eaglesway
Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!! There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!!!!

Just wanted to add an often forgotten sentence to that above quote.

"Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!! There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!!!!    ........who walk not after the flesh, but [who walk] after the Spirit. "


Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2010, 09:39:07 PM »
This is  cool, :) almost like a chat. I believe the tools are there through grace and the enlightment of the word to come, "to a mature man" in Christ. Not that we are perfect, as Paul said to the Phillipians, but to the point where we are "reigning in life" as overcomers. Speaking the truth in love and growing up in all aspects unto the Head, even Christ. I think we don't see it as we would like to because it can only be fulfilled in the body of Christ, when it is functioning as the fulness of Him who fills all in all, under His headship. As we all know, this is difficult today, because the body is scattered, or cancerous, or whatever it is, and we rarely find that kind of fellowship that allows the grace of God to come to full fruition, as described in Ephesians 4. Of course, thats just my opinion.

Eph 3:14-21  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,  of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,  that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,  that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,   that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,  to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled--to all the fulness of God;  and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us, to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

OHHHHH GLORRRYYY!!!!!  :dsunny:

Sorry, every now and then I get a little pentecostal HAHAHA, but it is SO glorious.

Eph 4:8-16  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?   he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--   and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,   unto the perfecting(maturing/completing/finishing) of the saints, for a work of ministration(the ministry of reconciliation), for a building up of the body of the Christ,  till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ, that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray,   and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head--the Christ;  from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.


Amen !!!

  we watch , wait and pray in faith in the Spirit to a  powerful and Mighty God  though Jesus Christ   those precious promises and  salvation is even  more nearer  today!!!  :icon_flower:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Online eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2010, 09:42:56 PM »
Amen Seth, this is our stewardship, "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." The abiding in the vine that bears eternal fruit, as opposed to the withering and pruning that comes upon those who do not "press into knowing Him".
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2010, 09:43:42 PM »
In the context of Romans 8, the flesh is the old man, reckoned dead. The spirit is the new man. I am not my flesh, in this case. I in fact, as the new man, am in a spiritual war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The spirit lusts(for dominion over me) against the flesh and the flesh lusts(for dominon over me) against the spirit, so that I cannot always to the things I ought. As I grow in grace, "Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord", I am transformed, renewed in the spirit of my mind, into the new man who is reigning through the righteousness of Christ. I cannot reform myself- that is the futility of the law. Until I see the separation between the old man who I reckoned dead on a cross through faith in Jesus, and me- the new man created in Jesus Christ for good works (but works that spring up as fruit out of grace and love), I can never be free from condemnation, and I buzz around like a fly with one wing.
  YES !!! :thumbsup:

Make that a double Yes!!!

Online eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2010, 09:54:50 PM »
The problem that often arises, is that "walking in the Spirit" , and "abiding" is taught as "not sinning", or "keeping the law", or "doing good things" so much that walking in the Spirit is actually taught in a way that throws people back on the power of their own flesh and binds them into cycles of failure and condemnation. This is why, IMO, Paul spends so much time making it clear that it is forgiveness and grace and the propitiation of Christ, accessed through the freely given power of the Holy Spirit, that brings the victory- and why He reiterates the "Not me but grace working in me", which He does in all his epistles.

Walking in the Spirit is reckoning the old man dead, even to the power to save himself by being good, and learning to walk out of fellowship with God in the spirit- which is the fountain of living water, and the only resource for victory, and depends upon a "full assurance" of His love and good will towards us expressed as grace- "help in the time of need".

He that has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him until that day.

Abiding in fellowship through love and forgiveness is the key to walking in the spirit. Perfect love cast out all fear, and the fear of death is behind most of the works of the flesh.
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Online eaglesway

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2010, 10:06:04 PM »
     I really think most Christians today, are taken, soon after they become alive to Christ, bound and fettered and told to drink from the befouled well of the traditions of men. Then they are fed from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and put back under the fear of death by the foul teaching that the gospel is law and if you run afoul of it you will burn forever. And oh by the way, God doesn't really want to fellowship with you until you are holy as he is holy, which means, since He never does anything wrong, and holiness is about what you do, I just need to get by as best I can and hope for the best- or walk away before my misery overruns me, or pretend I am holy enough and become a "judge and teacher of the law" and put others in bondage to me. 
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Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2010, 10:26:25 PM »
I believe walking in the flesh vs. walking in the Spirit is this

Romans 8
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Mortifying the deeds of the body is indeed "not sinning." However the reason Spirit walkers are able to be not sinning rather than walking according to the flesh and dying (in sin), is because of the influence and power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, as it says in Romans 2, they do the things of the law, by NATURE. In other words, it is not because the letter tells us not to sin, that we are enabled to not sin, it is because the Spirit changes the nature so that we do not want to sin in the first place. That power becomes more evident the more one matures.

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2010, 11:31:54 PM »
    fellas
   this is where faith  makes all the difference
  one mans conscience verses  another mans  conscience and  how loving maturity  really does cover a multitude of sins ...
 
 
and how to define sin ...may  well put up the whole  16 chapters of Romans is just really good stuff ...

 

 Romans 14
The Danger of Criticism
 1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.

2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables.
 
 3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.

4 Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him judge whether they are right or wrong. And with the Lord's help, they will do what is right and will receive his approval........................
 
 5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.
 
6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him.

 Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.
 
7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
 10 So why do you condemn another believer[a]? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For the Scriptures say,

   "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
   'every knee will bend to me,
      and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"

 12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.
 
 
13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.

 14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat.

But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.

 15 And if another believer is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died.


16 Then you will not be criticized for doing something you believe is good. 17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
 
 
18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God, and others will approve of you, too. 19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.

 20 Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble.
 
  21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble.
 22 You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.

  we are to eat the Lords flesh and drink His blood honorably  and with grace towards one another  to glorify Him ...

 
 
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2010, 11:45:38 PM »
     I really think most Christians today, are taken, soon after they become alive to Christ, bound and fettered and told to drink from the befouled well of the traditions of men. Then they are fed from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and put back under the fear of death by the foul teaching that the gospel is law and if you run afoul of it you will burn forever. And oh by the way, God doesn't really want to fellowship with you until you are holy as he is holy, which means, since He never does anything wrong, and holiness is about what you do, I just need to get by as best I can and hope for the best- or walk away before my misery overruns me, or pretend I am holy enough and become a "judge and teacher of the law" and put others in bondage to me. 

  Agreed ,
  a  self righteous  attitude is the same anti christ spirit the Lord warns  of
   if it were possible even the very elect would be decieved .... 

   minded me of   Luke 16   Jesus telling how the children of light are not as  shrewd as needed to be
 
 
 7 "'And how much do you owe my employer?' he asked the next man. 'I owe him 1,000 bushels of wheat,' was the reply. 'Here,' the manager said, 'take the bill and change it to 800 bushels'

 8 "The rich man had to admire the dishonest rascal for being so shrewd.
 
 And it is true that the children of this world are more shrewd in dealing with the world around them than are the children of the light. 9 Here's the lesson: Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends. Then, when your earthly possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home.
 10 "If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones.
 
 But if you are dishonest in little things, you won't be honest with greater responsibilities. 11 And if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven? 12 And if you are not faithful with other people's things, why should you be trusted with things of your own?
 
 last line sounds like you cannot help  yourself  much less anyone else   :dontknow:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Seth

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2010, 11:47:43 PM »
Here's the balance:

Galatians 4
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.



What I get from that is that, yes there are times when it is not so evident what is a sin, if it's something like "is it ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols if my conscious says no, but legally it is ok by God" VS .....witchcraft. The difference is that the former seeks to please God, while the latter serves the flesh.

But what is fairly evident is that the definition of "walking according to the flesh" is to be "fulfilling the lusts of the flesh" and the opposite is "walking by the Spirit" is to NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

In Romans 14, I don't think Paul is talking about the lusts of the flesh, which are evident. I think he is talking about confusion over doctrine and how when it comes to a dispute about what doctrinal practices are well and good, that is between the Lord and them BECAUSE they are seeking to please God.

However, those who walk by the flesh, do NOT seek to please God which is why their sins are evident and clear. There is no real gray area about "hatred" as to whether that is a sin, even if the person who has hatred believes they are right. Those who hate their brothers do not seek to please God in the first place.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 11:52:47 PM by Seth »

Offline rosered

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2010, 01:03:40 AM »
right on    Seth  :thumbsup:
Jesus is the reward  !!

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2010, 06:55:58 PM »
The problem that often arises, is that "walking in the Spirit" , and "abiding" is taught as "not sinning", or "keeping the law", or "doing good things" so much that walking in the Spirit is actually taught in a way that throws people back on the power of their own flesh and binds them into cycles of failure and condemnation. This is why, IMO, Paul spends so much time making it clear that it is forgiveness and grace and the propitiation of Christ, accessed through the freely given power of the Holy Spirit, that brings the victory- and why He reiterates the "Not me but grace working in me", which He does in all his epistles.

Walking in the Spirit is reckoning the old man dead, even to the power to save himself by being good, and learning to walk out of fellowship with God in the spirit- which is the fountain of living water, and the only resource for victory, and depends upon a "full assurance" of His love and good will towards us expressed as grace- "help in the time of need".

He that has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him until that day.

Abiding in fellowship through love and forgiveness is the key to walking in the spirit. Perfect love cast out all fear, and the fear of death is behind most of the works of the flesh.
Indeed, and love is the keeping of His commandements.  This is also the abiding...those who love Him abide in Him...those who love Him will keep His commandments.  Is this what you are saying?

peace, dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2010, 08:25:15 PM »
  Because love fulfills the law, through the fruit of the spirit, against which their is no law, yes, love is keeping His commandments. We needed the law to show us our need for grace. We need the Spirit to empower our inner man(Eph 3:16) and transform us into the image of Christ through koinonea (2Cor3:15-18), or we cannot love, even when we desire to (Romans 7:22,23), because the flesh gets in the way. We need to be set free from condemnation (Ro 8:1-5) so that we can fellowship with the Father in the "new and living way"(Heb 10:18-20), because that connection to the vine(Jn 15) is the source of grace. Grace is the source of everything. If we go back to the law, and our own strength, we start to whither, and eventually will get pruned and thrown into the fire. Not the fire of the ETers tho. The fire of 1 Cor. 3:11-15 and Mat 3:10-12.
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dmatic

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Re: the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2010, 08:48:21 PM »
Thanks Eaglesway...I can see you're deep...so I hope you don't mind if I "mine" a little more from you with my questions?

I don't know what koinonea is...does it relate to money or coins?  You're not preaching the prosperity gospel are you? :laughing7: People have told me to watch out for that!

I would ask you for your definition of 'grace'. You say it is the source of everything.  Are you saying grace is God? I suppose when any of us extend "grace' we are acting like Him, but that doesn't mean we are Him...does it?  they also told me to watch out for You are God teachings! :dontknow: Most certainly we cannot do anything without Him!  We could not even fail to keep His commandments, let alone keep them without Him!  Who is saying anything about trying to do anything without Him?  We cannot walk even according to the flesh without Him.  However, we do need to learn to walk according to the Spirit to escape condemnation...this is grace...When He teaches us how to do that.

But, you say:
Quote
If we go back to the law, and our own strength, we start to whither, and eventually will get pruned and thrown into the fire.

What do you mean by "go back to the law"?  I think this is where my "confusion" comes when trying to understand what it is that you suggest....in order for us to love and keep God's commandments. You reccommend that we not go back to His Law?

peace, dmatic


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