the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law"

[Molly]

I really enjoyed this--



I have mentioned this before; but let me say it again. Do you know the difference between a "God-being" and a "God-doing?" A human being is called a human being because he or she is human. A man doesn't have to act like a human. He does not have to do so many things which are characteristic of a human to qualify him as a human being. He just is, he is a human being by birth. He is not a human doing. He is not going around doing things that humans do for the purpose of proving his birthright. That would be ridiculous!

Likewise, every son of God just is, he is a God-being, not a God-doing. If we think we have to get all of our ducks in a row to qualify, such as the proper creeds, laws, legalisms, and countless rituals, we will never make it. If it was really necessary to make sure everything was in order and stacked up perfectly before we were God-beings, I can see why it would be easy to believe in reincarnation. We would need a few more lives to get the job done. I am relieved that it is "Not of works, lest any wan should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:9-l0). And let me ask, how are we going to walk in the good works? Simply by being who we are in Him. That is what makes us God-beings rather than God-doings.

Cherubim reside in carnal minds to keep the carnal men and women from entering into the Garden, from eating of the Tree of Life, and from partaking of its fruit. They stop them from becoming God-beings in the image of the first Adam. Cherubim very wisely guard the way, keeping carnality from entering in. They keep man acting like God, rather than Being who they are in God. But those who have been lifted by Life, the veil has been rent, and they enter in boldly, bypassing the Cherubim, the imaginations, figures of reality, and no longer are they God-doings, but God-beings.

If we have truly caught the vision, if we have caught the Spirit that is streaming from the heavens of revelation -- without effort, we will simply be who we are. We will not act out anything. We will be what the cross of Jesus initiated in every soul, a work that will be completed only by His Life in us.

--Elwin Roach

[peacemaker]

"I AM that which I WILL BE." 

[rosered]

 
  Thanks Molly ,
  that is a good piece you brought out sis! 
 
  we can  " just be"/resting   as Gods children without "acting out  " seems  you  do keep Gods law/love  and honor Him as Jesus was the example  "naturally"   as the very nature of your new found bith /origin...


   I always wondered about the purpose of the  Cheribum/seraphim 
in the Lord Gods plan ,  these articles helped me  a bunch  with my studies  on them" imagi -nations "   
 
  love ya sis !  rose

[Seth]

If anyone has love....that person will ACT in love. Otherwise, his love is useless to anyone but self. Is that wrong? Is that not Biblical?

A good work is not simply sitting still and knowing who you are in Christ. Who you are is intended to be Christ's workmanship ....created unto good works....prepared before that you should walk in them.

Here they are:


1 Corinthians 12
 1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

1 Cor 12
 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.

And now I will show you the most excellent way.

1 Corinthians 13
 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


Love indeed does ACT. Love that does not act or result in good works is self DISGUISED as love.







 

[rosered]

Love indeed does ACT. Love that does not act or result in good works is self DISGUISED as love.

  Love the scriptures Seth!
   
  and I do agree that love in motion does produce good fruit in the END / which is Christ 
 
 i will give an example 
 when i was  young /20's  i done something foolish
 and i knew it , all knew it
  but these wonderful folks who professed Christ  and loved God
   helped me out  and I was NOT  anything but a wild child  mind you
 
 this act of love towards God and me a  sinner  instead of judgment and hardeness  of heart  proved to me that I also wanted to serve this same God they did!   as time went by I got to know the same God  of Love  they served loved and  obeyed 
  wow  !  i have not thought of that in awhile  but your post remined me of   this  testimony /witness to the  God of Love and to His glory !
 
  thanks  Bro  for the reminder   and the Spirit of truth will set you free !       in loving Christ    rose

[Molly]

Love indeed does ACT. Love that does not act or result in good works is self DISGUISED as love.

Yes, it does.  Faith without works is dead.  It can't help itself but to act.  But, we act in the context that He has put us.  Every small act of love is great.  It is not something we will do to, it is something we are.

[Seth]

I guess I don't differentiate between what we do and are. If I lie, I am a liar. If I kill, I am a killer. But I understand your point, which has always been essential: we rest from OUR OWN works and it is God that causes the "good works" so that we can boast of nothing but Him.

[rosered]

I guess I don't differentiate between what we do and are. If I lie, I am a liar. If I kill, I am a killer. But I understand your point, which has always been essential: we rest from OUR OWN works and it is God that causes the "good works" so that we can boast of nothing but Him.

  Excellent  Bro Seth !  so that we can boast of nothing but Him.  profoundly True !
   His Glory /Power    WORKING though us any of us  as God desires   it ti be so .........     rose

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, we are sent out into the world as His vessels.
It is not we that live, but Christ in us!

[Molly]

I guess I don't differentiate between what we do and are.

This is why hypocrisy grates so much.  You say one thing and do another.  It's doublemindedness.  One could even say it is evil.

It is why Jesus says, out of the heart, the mouth speaks.  It is what comes out of the heart that is important, not what goes in.  The act itself is coming from what is inside of the man, not from what is outside.  It is why Jesus was always berating the Pharisees, why he told them they had nothing inside but dead bones [the letter of the Law].  Love acts inspite of what is going on outside, not because of it.  It works against death.


27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

--Mat 23

[Beloved Servant]

I have no interest in the religions or the governments of the world, not one whit.
However, it's the people encountered each day that I embrace.

[Seth]

I agree Molly. It is what is inside that counts. "For it is God in you both to will and to work of his good pleasure." 

[Beloved Servant]

JAMES TO THE TWELVE TRIBES;
Chapter 3:

7 For every nature, both of wild beasts and flying creatures, both of reptiles and those of the salt sea, is tamed and has been tamed by human nature.
8 Yet the tongue can no man tame -- a turbulent evil, distended with death-carrying venom.
9 With it we are blessing the Lord and Father, and with it we are cursing men who have come to be in accord with God's likeness.
10 Out of the same mouth is coming forth blessing and cursing. There is no need, my brethren, for this to become thus.
11 No spring out of the same hole is venting the sweet and the bitter.
12 No fig tree, my brethren, can produce olives, nor a grapevine figs. Thus neither does brine produce sweet water.
13 Who is wise and an adept among you? Let him show his works by an ideal behavior in meekness of wisdom.
14 Now if you are having bitter jealousy and faction in your heart, are you not vaunting against and falsifying the truth?
15 This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal.
16 For wherever jealousy and faction are, there is turbulence also, and every bad practice.
17 Now the wisdom from above is first, indeed, pure, thereupon peaceable, lenient, compliant, bulging with mercy and good fruits, undiscriminating, unfeigned.
18 Now the fruit of righteousness is being sown in peace for those making peace.

[rosered]

Yes, we are sent out into the world as His vessels.
It is not we that live, but Christ in us!

 
    His Spirit is   forever/ always      rose

[dmatic]

raeding through this thread, I discovered that my assumptions were proven wrong!

Anyway...have you defined what you think the term "works of the law" means?

I think it has been completely misunderstood.  I think that the many who do not understand Paul's writings have twisted his sayings as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction....but, what do you think it means?

peace, dmatic

[rosered]

raeding through this thread, I discovered that my assumptions were proven wrong!

Anyway...have you defined what you think the term "works of the law" means?

I think it has been completely misunderstood.  I think that the many who do not understand Paul's writings have twisted his sayings as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction....but, what do you think it means?

peace, dmatic

    works of the Law   expose the lacking  in each and  every one of us
   works of the   Law   works death in each of us the ministration of death
 i love Romans 7 and 8  for this reason it is explained thoughly in these two chapters   just how we die  in ADAM  :icon_flower:and our hope is than in Christ only , not of ourselves


Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
 
  our carnal nature  than must die  by the law of  a Righteous GOD !
 in order for the law of Life  to set us free of  being slaves to sin .
 
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
 the judging the sin in the flesh makes us all guilty before God
 
 than we are made new creatures in Christ
  born again of the Spirit and Word of God ..  that is our  new life hid in Christ ,,
 

[rosered]

PS
 to be  completely  honest  with you right now
   for me ,i am still dying  Yet Gaining Christ by faith in HIS will and desire to save our soul and body to His Spirit and Life .

[dmatic]

rosered< you wrote:

our carnal nature  than must die  by the law of  a Righteous GOD !
 in order for the law of Life  to set us free of  being slaves to sin .

Very True!

So, are saying that the "works of the Law" of a righteous God are a good thing?

If so, how can they be considered a bad thing?

peace, dmatic

[rosered]

rosered< you wrote:

our carnal nature  than must die  by the law of  a Righteous GOD !
 in order for the law of Life  to set us free of  being slaves to sin .

Very True!

So, are saying that the "works of the Law" of a righteous God are a good thing?

If so, how can they be considered a bad thing?

peace, dmatic

  Hi Dmatic ,
 it is a very good thing ..
 
  Paul explains well in Romans 7 and 8  better than I could 
 
  the New Living Translation .. Romans 7 Romans 7
No Longer Bound to the Law
 1 Now, dear brothers and sisters[a]—you who are familiar with the law—don't you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
 4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

God's Law Reveals Our Sin
 7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."[c] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
 13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes.

Struggling with Sin
 14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate.

 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. 18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[d] I want to do what is right, but I can't.

 19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

 21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
 
 22 I love God's law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind.

  This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.

 
 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
  two  natures  working  in one person  causing emnity /warring
  this is where JESUS does His greatest work in us  being Lord of the dead and living .

Romans 8
 tearing down the middle wall of seperation  making one new man/child    of God   from   all  nations  the inclusion      ... ephesians   2 :14
 11 Don't forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called "uncircumcised heathens" by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.
 14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.
 17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.

 
Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
 1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power[a] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[c] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
 5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. 8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[d] because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

 12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,[e] you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,[f] you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children[g] of God.

 15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[h] Now we call him, "Abba, Father." 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children. 17 And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God's glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.

The Future Glory
 18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. 19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22 For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children,[j] including the new bodies he has promised us. 24 We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don't need to hope[k] for it. 25 But if we look forward to something we don't yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.)
 26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. 27 And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers[l] in harmony with God's own will. 28 And we know that God causes everything to work together[m] for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

Nothing Can Separate Us from God's Love
 31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won't he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God's right hand, pleading for us.
 35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ's love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, "For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep."[n]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

 38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,

• neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord

 
can you tell i really like the New Living Translation ?
   

[dmatic]

Yes I can tell!

This topic can be very confusing, I think.  I will try to tread 'softly'.  There is a :LAW of sin and death...there is also a Law of liberty, to which you made mention.
I think we walk in the law of liberty when we follow the Spirit. When we are "keeping" the law, we are not sinnning, so we are not walking, then, in the law of sin and death.

The "works of the law", I think, are the things that were "added because of transgressions to the law, that the people were to do, for "justification" or forgiveness.

The "works of the law" are NOT, in my opinion, simple obedience to the law's commands.

I think Paul was saying that those "old covenant" works of the law, that required "sacrifices" etc, are not what justify us from our disobedience.

I've got to go now, but will try to address this better when I can...

Peace, dmatic

[WhiteWings]

can you tell i really like the New Living Translation ?

I could tell; but I don't want to lie to much 

sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

Lee! Did you read that?

19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

Sounds a bit like shifting blame...

[sheila]

.....sounds a bit like shifting blame....

   what about this...Lev 10;8 he is to cast lots for the two goats

  - one for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall

 bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord ,and sacrifice it for a sin
offering.But the goat chosen by lot AS THE SCAPEGOAT shall be

presented alive before the Lord for making atonement by

 sending it into the desert as a scapegoat.


   

   v 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites- all their sins..and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task.The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.

[WhiteWings]

.....sounds a bit like shifting blame....

Very similar.
It's not that I didn't know about those verses. I understand exactly what it is about, but it's hard to grasp for me.

I'm a sinner. I'm bad etc etc. But it's not me but something in me.
It's me but it's not me.

It's either me or 'that something'.

[sheila]

        

[Seth]

.....sounds a bit like shifting blame....

Very similar.
It's not that I didn't know about those verses. I understand exactly what it is about, but it's hard to grasp for me.

I'm a sinner. I'm bad etc etc. But it's not me but something in me.
It's me but it's not me.

It's either me or 'that something'.

The way I look at it: it's you as led by whatever master you submit to, making the true enemy that God is against to be that master (sin) not you. If you were the source of sin, than you would have to be eradicated, and not metaphorically, for God to cleanse his creation of sin. Paul is simply revealing the master/slave relationship of sin. Suppose a baseball bat hits you in the head. The bat hit you, but really the one wielding the bat did it. That's the closest illustration I can make of how I understand it.