soul and spirit

[micah7:9]

I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.

I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake.  "

  I don't think I get the point they are trying to make here.....

The establishment of the covenant IS the dividing asunder of soul from Spirit. In the same way that the animal was cut into 2 pieces and then the furnace walked between them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remissions for sins.

The blood was walked thru with the underlying message that if the covenant was broken by either party, their blood would be required.

Eve was taken out of Adam (cut) dividing them, and then the Word came ("furnace walked thru) to give the conditions of the covenant that was established (do eat, don't eat). As the two said after He appeared and talked with them on the road, did our hearts not BURN within us?

They broke the covenant and they "died", ie. their blood was required, Adam "lost" his soul/Eve. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

That Adam had covenant knowledge was shown later by what his sons did. Blessings....

I like this very much. Thank you

[rosered]

I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.

I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake.  "

  I don't think I get the point they are trying to make here.....

The establishment of the covenant IS the dividing asunder of soul from Spirit. In the same way that the animal was cut into 2 pieces and then the furnace walked between them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remissions for sins.

The blood was walked thru with the underlying message that if the covenant was broken by either party, their blood would be required.

Eve was taken out of Adam (cut) dividing them, and then the Word came ("furnace walked thru) to give the conditions of the covenant that was established (do eat, don't eat). As the two said after He appeared and talked with them on the road, did our hearts not BURN within us?

They broke the covenant and they "died", ie. their blood was required, Adam "lost" his soul/Eve. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

That Adam had covenant knowledge was shown later by what his sons did. Blessings....

I like this very much. Thank you

  yes me too , I get this part as well   Thanks   !!!

[Cardinal]

  Glad it blessed y'all......

[micah7:9]

11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

 12And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

--Lev 26




Isaiah 42:1

 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.



21And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
--Mat 12

Lev 26:11  And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
This is saying God has a soul. What is God's soul? Are you saying the Word teaches that Jesus is the soul of God? I like that.

[CHB]

That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."

I've always thought that man was a dead soul until God breathed into his nostrils then he became a living soul? (Gen. 2:7)

CHB

[WhiteWings]

^KJVRom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
^KJV1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
^KJVMat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Note the Greek word for destroy also means lost.
^KJVEze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So body and soul can/shall die.
Let's look at the spirit.


^KJV2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
^KJV1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
^KJVAct 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
^KJV2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
^KJVRom 11:8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
^KJVNum 5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
^KJVHos 4:12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.

^KJVRom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Spirits also sin. So they also die....

[WhiteWings]

That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."

I've always thought that man was a dead soul until God breathed into his nostrils then he became a living soul? (Gen. 2:7)

CHB

^YLTLev 17
11 for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.

All the red words are exactly the same in Hebrew.

נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5314
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395a

נפשׁ
nâphash
BDB Definition:
1) (Niphal) to take breath, refresh oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395
The soul is in the blood. But blood needs oxygen.

^YLTGen 6
3 And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man--to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

During the flood the breath was taken away. Drowned

^YLTGen 7
22 all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit--of all that is in the dry land--have died.

Note that many (all?) translations "hide" the orginal words.
Breath=spirit
of life/of a living spirit/etc= simply means life
The spirit is not life it's breath/wind/etc. Of course life and breath are very closely related but they are not the same.


neshâmâh
BDB Definition:
1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5395
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1433a

נשׁם
nâsham
BDB Definition:
1) to pant
1a) (Qal) to pant
1a1) of a woman in travail or labour
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1433

So blood=soul gives life to the body.  But the oxygen/wind keeps the blood alive.

[Cardinal]

  Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood. Abel's BLOOD cried out from the ground, the position of the soul without a body, AND an intercessor, Christ our Lord.

That's part of what's such a stunning reversal of pattern, about the Lord taking HIS blood into the Holy of Holies. My 

[Molly]

Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood. Abel's BLOOD cried out from the ground, the position of the soul without a body, AND an intercessor, Christ our Lord.

That's part of what's such a stunning reversal of pattern, about the Lord taking HIS blood into the Holy of Holies. My 

So are we to take from this that Abel's soul is alive in the ground?  And, how would this work with the spirit of Abel?

Or, how does the blood of a dead man speak?

[Cardinal]

  The spirit returns to the One who sent it; the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while in the body. They could not overcome THEN, because there was no revealed MEDIATOR between God and man. The souls were who He preached to. The soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.

The WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body. My 

[Molly]

The soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.

So are these the souls we might call ghosts, or the souls in Tartarus or Ghenna?  How would things be different today for the soul after the cross?

The WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body

This confuses me a little.  While in the body, would soul and spirit be separated?  Wouldn't that only happen at death?  I don't quite understand what you mean by the 'superior' resurrection.

[WhiteWings]

To my understanding the superior resurection is teh first one. First fruits. Not all believers are first fruits.

[Molly]

To my understanding the superior resurection is teh first one. First fruits. Not all believers are first fruits.

I understand that, but Cardinal said it could happen in the body at the union of soul and spirit--so I have a question about that.  Is our soul and spirit separated while we are in the body?  Or is the union of something else?

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood.

No wonder some people don't want blood transfusions.

[Molly]

Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood.

No wonder some people don't wasnt blood transfusions.

exactly.  JW are one of those groups.

[thinktank]

The spirit returns to the One who sent it; the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while in the body. They could not overcome THEN, because there was no revealed MEDIATOR between God and man. The souls were who He preached to. The soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.

The WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body. My 

Card it suddenyl dawned upon me that when you talk of dead souls, that you do not mean a ghostly spirit, since I beleive that the ghost part is the Spirit of man. I am not sure, but do you mean e.g let's say


Mary magdelene she dies, her spirit has been cleansed therefore she goes to heaven, but her soul and body goes to the dust and the souls thoughts have ceased. But her soul still needs to overcome her weaknesses, let's say for example only, since I don't know her - example lust. Ok so at the resurection, Mary magdelenes body and soul gets resurected but her soul must overcome the lust by living on earth in the 1000 year reign of Christ. I know you are not keen on 1000 years, but what else do I call it? the exact number of years is not my concern here.

[Cardinal]

The soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.

So are these the souls we might call ghosts, or the souls in Tartarus or Ghenna?  How would things be different today for the soul after the cross?

He is the mediator now and nothing can separate us from His love. He will come to them. The manifested sons of God are being raised up with the same "job", to set a groaning creation free. Why do you think it's worded that way, ie. groaning creation, and in another place speaks of travailing as A WOMAN travails? The creation IS the waters below the firmament. Our carnality is a veil that keeps us from realizing the state of our souls/creation. Once that veil was removed from Abel, his soul cried out from the ground.

The WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body

This confuses me a little.  While in the body, would soul and spirit be separated?  Wouldn't that only happen at death?  I don't quite understand what you mean by the 'superior' resurrection.

Yes they are separated, because the unclean thing (soul ladden with sins) cannot enter into His presence. For this reason, as a type, women were not allowed in the priesthood to make offerings, because the soul is feminine in nature.

The priesthood realm is symbolically as the firmament (inner court). It's the second part of the 3 part pattern, just as the firmament is the second part of the 3 part pattern given pertaining to the waters. The two trees were in the MIDST of the garden; the candlestick and the table of shewbread was in the MIDST of the tabernacle. Women were not allowed in, and following that pattern, neither are "menstrous" ie. unclean, souls.

A soul that has not birthed a son (ie. THE Son) is as a mentrous woman (which was another term dealing with IDOLATRY), which was considered unclean. This is also why, in reverse, the first to open the matrix (womb) was blessed.

This is what the marriage supper of the Lamb is all about, ie. He "marries" (a joining) Himself to our soul, after "she" goes thru the purification process (tribulation of the soul).

The resurrection Paul talked about is referred to as the "superior resurrection", ie. the one that takes place in the body. It's where he said he would not be unclothed (die) but rather clothed upon, corruption being swallowed up of life.

This is the high calling in Christ Jesus that Paul talks about, also, that he was striving for, because it is the same as the High Priest's office, in that they will have the ability to remove sins. What makes this even more remarkable, is he was not of the tribe of Levi (he was of Benjamin), either!

So he was fully aware of what he was saying, and the obvious reason why the Pharisees hated him the most: he wasn't JUST saying Christ took the priesthood from you all, but HIS children will also walk in the authority of the HIGH PRIEST'S OFFICE. THIS IS THE SONS OF GOD ROMANS 8 TALKS ABOUT, a "kingdom" of priests. My 

[Cardinal]

Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood.

No wonder some people don't wasnt blood transfusions.

  Exactly. I've read stories of people who got organs from the dead, later searched out their relatives, and found out a "mysterious" craving for a particular food that the organ recipient didn't even like (a craving that started after the organ transplant), was the organ donor's favorite food. 

There's more to this than meets the eye.....

[WhiteWings]

So if someone recieves 10 blood transfusions they have 10 different souls?
 

[Molly]

Yes they are separated, because the unclean thing (soul ladden with sins) cannot enter into His presence. For this reason, as a type, women were not allowed in the priesthood to make offerings, because the soul is feminine in nature.

Just to clarify, so you are saying that the spirit can enter into his presence because it can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, but the soul cannot until the marriage of the soul with Christ?  In other words, the spirit does not require marriage but the soul does?  Won't this marriage happen at the time of the first resurrection for everyone at the same time?

The resurrection Paul talked about is referred to as the "superior resurrection", ie. the one that takes place in the body. It's where he said he would not be unclothed (die) but rather clothed upon, corruption being swallowed up of life.

But didn't this superior resurrection also include the glorified body?  I'm still considering this idea of clothes.  Jesus tells us to ask certain things of him so we won't be found 'naked.'  We see in Gen 2, they are naked but not ashamed, whereas in Gen 3 they are naked but ashamed.  We see that when Jesus is arrested in the garden, a certain young man runs away naked, losing his clothes.  Obviously, clothes has something to do with being covered, but does it mean different things in different circumstances?

Isn't the ultimate meaning to be clothed in a glorified body?  Are all resurrected bodies also glorified?  Was Paul including a glorified body in his idea of superior resurrection?

This is the high calling in Christ Jesus that Paul talks about, also, that he was striving for, because it is the same as the High Priest's office, in that they will have the ability to remove sins. What makes this even more remarkable, is he was not of the tribe of Levi (he was of Benjamin), either!

Do you think it means high priest or a priest on the order of Melchizedek?  Isn't there just one high priest, i.e. Jesus?

BTW, are you aware that Catholic priests, when they are ordained, are told that they are priests forever on the order of Melchizedek and also given the ability to forgive sin?  I just heard that yesterday.  In light of what you are saying, wouldn't this seem to be stepping over the bounds of what man could achieve within a church setting?  Wouldn't that be up to God?

I know you don't have a lot of time, Cardinal.  Anything would be appreciated.

[Cardinal]

  Going to work shortly, but......the spirit came from Him which is why it returns to Him.

Not surprised about the Catholic priests, since it says NO MAN takes this honor unto himself. Yes, there is one High Priest, but He is busy building mini versions of Himself, ie. until Christ be FORMED in you.

The greater works He said we would do, is to bring the soul into union with the Spirit. Like all works, this is done thru His Holy Spirit.

Matthew 9:6 KJV - But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise , take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

We are told that we cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless we be born of the water (flesh/law/waters below the firmament = son of man) AND born of the blood (Spirit/grace and mercy/firmament = son of God).

The whole purpose of gaining His Spirit is to grow into fully matured sons of God. Got to run....

[eaglesway]

Going to work shortly, but......the spirit came from Him which is why it returns to Him.

Not surprised about the Catholic priests, since it says NO MAN takes this honor unto himself. Yes, there is one High Priest, but He is busy building mini versions of Himself, ie. until Christ be FORMED in you.

The greater works He said we would do, is to bring the soul into union with the Spirit. Like all works, this is done thru His Holy Spirit.

Matthew 9:6 KJV - But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise , take up thy bed, and go unto thine house

We are told that we cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless we be born of the water (flesh/law/waters below the firmament = son of man) AND born of the blood (Spirit/grace and mercy/firmament = son of God).

The whole purpose of gaining His Spirit is to grow into fully matured sons of God. Got to run....

    Let us run with patience the race set before us..... The wind blows where it wills, and we hear the sound of it, but we don't know where it is going or from whence it cam..... SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/HTML/UROC/chapter63.html

[gasman]

People...you are not getting it.

The first 4 times Nephesh was used in Genesis was used for aminals and fish. Only the 5th time was it used for man. Nephesh really means life. That is it. ALL life comes from God. ALL life. Period.

God IS Spirit. Not a spirit. You don't have your own spirit. There is no spirit outside of God. He is not a major spirit amongst billions of smaller spirits. There is only ONE spirit. God. The life in you belongs to God. It is his. It belongs to him and we just borrow it for a spell. When we die, it returns to it's proper owner. No life can exist unless it has been seeded by his spirit. A portion of Godliness. God himself resides in all of us.

Now your soul, who you are, comes from the dust. That is where the carnal was seeded by God in the first place. Seeded IN HOPE.

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Made subject to vanity. Not willingly....No free will. No choice. You were made carnal. The process of dying to the flesh is the transformation into the incorruptable. The dealings of God change us.

Now when you die, you don't own your soul. You don't go to God. You don't go to purgatory. You don't overcome or do anything after death.

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Sheol or Hades both mean the grave, but they really refer not to the hole in the ground but rather the state of the body in the ground. Those who die, close their eyes and await their new bodies. For them it will seems like a momentary closing of their eyes.

The bible says that in the ground you are asleep. For a time. Now the first fruits or the first resurrection refers to those who HAVE died to the flesh. They have attained the prize. These are the ones who will judge angels. They are 'Huios', the fully matured Sons of God. Not the 'Tetnos' or children or immature Sons.  The rest await the second resurrection. Where they are purged in the Lake of Fire. Only the mature, the perfected will be endowed with the authority and power of God for the next aion.  This is to the measure and the stature of Christ within them. Not that they seek the power for powers sake, but it is a by-product of the fullness of Christ within them. The nature of Christ IS the power of Christ. 

Please try not to over complicate this. Sometimes too much knowledge gets in the way of wisdom and truth.
History, including church history is full of the thoughts of people who over-thought. Who couldn't just BE in the moment, thus they miss the lesson.

Psa 119:105  NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

His word is not lighting your whole journey. Just your next step. The secret to success in Christ is "the next step". Not the next mile. Focus on the path and the lesson before you, otherwise you just keep going through the desert and never come into the promised land. Forever wandering. Never learning the lesson and doing it the extra hard way. There IS a more excellent way. Too much pondering on what God is NOT dealing with RIGHT NOW is where all of these foolish thoughts lead. They bring confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

2Ti 2:16  But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

This is where all of the blasphemous doctrines of devils have come from. The foolish imaginings of man. Trinity, hell, rapture, dispensationalism. They all have perverted the understanding of the church over the years. People over-thinking the word. If you don't understand it now, don't make it up in your head now. But be patient because the understanding WILL come in the dealings of God as he inspires and illuminates it in your life. That IS what overcoming is. Being dealt with and coming out at the other end different than when you first started.

Be IN the moment because the hand of God's purpose holds you up in THIS moment. You overcome TODAY. Not afar off. Not one day.
True worship is obedience. To make obeisance before you God and King.

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Praise the Lord.

[eaglesway]

Num 14:24  "But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

Psa 77:6  I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.


Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
(Psa 31:5)

Rom 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Co 5:4)

1Co 14:14  For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
(Heb 12:1)
 

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(Heb 12:22-23)


These scriptures and a good many others may present a slightly different perspective.

While I think what you presented on abiding, and on the nature of our spirit(coming from God and returning to God) are beautiful and true I also think you may have surpassed to some extent the scriptures in "oversimplifying" a couple things.

I think a reasonable person could gather from these verses that there is some personal possession "freely given by God" and a union between the spirit of God and the heart of man that is individual to the person receiving it.

I also see that the "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding us are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect(complete whole)"

While our direct understanding of Sheol may stop "at the dirt", I do not think that means that the entire understanding of Sheol is concluded within your definition of it.

Also, obedience requires a measure of free will, and some of those verses indicate that (as Caleb had "a different spirit", and Paul served God "in my spirit") there is possibly a differentiation between the spirit of one person and another and that difference may reside at the "heart" of the person- where all these elements, "spirit, soul, body" are united, and where the will of man abides.

My point is not to disagree with you, altho I do in some measure- just to point out that it is the scriptures that we depend upon as final arbiter, by the illumination of the Holy Spirit and the "mid-rash" of the brethren.

Anyone can present their perspective as the "simple truth", not to be "over thought" or "complicated"- such declarations however do not make it so.

If it IS SO, then it can be found in the scroll. If there are apparently contradictory witnesses in the scroll, then the saints engage in discussion, with open minds and hearts(hopefully :o), in order to resolve understanding and find unity of faith.

IMO some of these "RESOLUTIONS" will include disclaimers such as, "Well, it may be just slightly this way, or just slightly that way. We believe that a person of good conscience and reason may hold either view, and we encourage that the saints not become contentious or divide over the issue. Amen"