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Offline fullarmor2

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Something I wondered
« on: September 28, 2007, 10:04:02 PM »
     When I use to believe in ET I had a question.  If the penalty facing people is unending death, how did Jesus' death for only three days satisfy that?   But now it makes perfect sense.   Yes, the penalty for sin is death. But its not suppose to be unending. The duration of separation from God, which is the penalty for sin,  is conditional in my opinion. It depends on how long it takes for God's justice to be satified AND how long it takes for his will to be conformed to.  Jesus took upon himself all sin and as the Lamb of God  he died and payed the penalty for sin. What Jesus did satisfied God's justice AND in the whole process Jesus was doing the will of God.

For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 03:27:38 AM »
fullar,

Do you think that God really sought to kill people and that Jesus saved us from God?  Or do you think that it might be that people believed (mistakenly) that God was out for blood?  Maybe Jesus died delivering a message of unconditional love?

 :2c: Amie

         Oh no don't misunderstand me,   all death means is separation.  Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body.  Spiritual death is separation from God.  When the word of God talks about death being the penalty for sin,  it means that sin causes a person to be separated from God. God was never out for blood, from the beginning his plan has been to redeem us from sin and this fallen world. Jesus didn't save us from God. He saved us from sin and the penalty of sin, fulfilling the will of God.  Because of what Jesus did, we have been reconciled to God. We were separated because of sin but Jesus redeemed us.  And  now nothing can separate us from God because of what Jesus did for us!
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Loveroftruth

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 02:10:34 PM »
fullar,

Do you think that God really sought to kill people and that Jesus saved us from God?  Or do you think that it might be that people believed (mistakenly) that God was out for blood?  Maybe Jesus died delivering a message of unconditional love?

 :2c: Amie

Well all the systems of "animal sacrifices" that God supposedly set up has a way of making Him look "blood thirsty"

Amie or anyone else - do you have any insight into the sacrifice system God set up?
Why would He require blood or life?

Offline 97531

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 08:48:18 PM »
My :2c:

Sin causes guilt and even though we know God cannot look upon sin, just realised, He cannot look upon sin as he looks upon His creation us, He looks past the sin and still sees what is precious to Him us, can you believe that? WoW thank you Lord.  :reachout:

Back to topic.  We cannot undo sin and therefor what remains is guilt.  That is what needs to be addressed by the blood sacrifice.  It was an atonement for sin yes but like prayer and worship, it tends to do more for us that it does for God.  Do I make sense?

If I knowingly did something wrong, I would be hounded by guilt.  To make the guilt go away I would need to seek forgiveness by the offendee and/or offer atonement.

Now maybe the sin sacrifices were God's way then for addressing the guilt issue of sin and not so much the sin itself.  Yes God did meet out judgements when certain people were killed or swallowed up by the earth, but the judgement was executed and is over.

Remember, the OT laws were man's way to reconcile to God.

When Jesus died, He paid the price for all sin past, present and future.  The animal sacrifice was a shadow of the real thing to come.

Blessings
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Amie

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 11:05:40 PM »
I couldn't agree more StainedGlass.

The first offering enters the story at Cain and Abel.  The purpose for offerings from man's point of view, was in question form.  Basically, "If God accepts my offering, then my flock is acceptable.  A blessed flock is evidence of God's favor."

The old covenant was God's example of our having it our way.  If we lost touch with love in the garden though, no amount of lawkeeping would convince us that we were worthy of it.  They tried like nuts though, and compiled lots of stuff, power, and personal honor to evidence God's love to themselves.  Jesus went a different route.

Jesus said that the law could be summed up in basically "Love God, love your neighbor as yourself".  This was absent in ancient Israelite lawkeeping, and served as a perfect contrast in teaching the distinction between love, and ability.

"Good and evil" is a conclusion drawn via obedience/law.  Love transcends that.  God loved Adam/Eve after they disobeyed, they just didn't believe it.

Amie


Amie

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 11:08:48 PM »
Seeker,

I agree with what you wrote.  Sin really becomes a non-issue when we understand unconditional love, does it not?  Kool!  We can both be guilty of lawbreaking, and be loved.

That was a concept foreign to the early folks.

Amie


Michele

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2007, 11:30:57 PM »
I enjoy reading your thoughts Amie  :thumbsup:......I remember hearing a young woman say that we just don't realize how loved we are, and there is nothing we can do that can change that love.......if we only knew.  She also said something that kinda made me laugh......something about how there is such freedom when one sees this.....fills you with joy, and there is nothing that we could DO that would make us be loved any more than we already are.........we could just sit on the beach and eat ice cream all day if we wanted to, and that love will still be there. :cloud9:  :grin:
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:48:19 AM by StainedGlass »

Amie

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 01:54:18 AM »
I enjoy reading your thoughts Amie  :thumbsup:......I remember hearing a young woman say that we just don't realize how loved we are, and there is nothing we can do that can change that love.......if we only knew.  She also said something that kinda made me laugh......something about how there is such freedom when one sees this.....fills you with joy, and there is nothing that we could DO that would make us be loved any more than we already are.........we could just sit on the beach and eat ice cream all day if we wanted to, and that love will still be there. :cloud9:  :grin:

 :girlheart:

It's as if it were "good news".. almost like a "saving" message..  :laughing7:

 :bgdance:

Michele

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2007, 04:02:50 AM »
I enjoy reading your thoughts Amie  :thumbsup:......I remember hearing a young woman say that we just don't realize how loved we are, and there is nothing we can do that can change that love.......if we only knew.  She also said something that kinda made me laugh......something about how there is such freedom when one sees this.....fills you with joy, and there is nothing that we could DO that would make us be loved any more than we already are.........we could just sit on the beach and eat ice cream all day if we wanted to, and that love will still be there. :cloud9:  :grin:

 :girlheart:

It's as if it were "good news".. almost like a "saving" message..  :laughing7:

 :bgdance:

It is for sure Amie!  :icon_flower:

Offline Kratos

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2007, 08:33:48 PM »
Seeker,

I agree completely what you wrote. The Book of Hebrews addresses this issue:

Heb 9:9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 9:12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


To me, this is the whole point of the 9th and 10th chapters of Hebrews. The purpose of the blood sacrifices of bulls and goats was to cover sin so that man's conscience could be appeased and we could still approach God. I have heard for years that God cannot look on sin or fellowship with someone who is not holy, yet this is not true. When Adam sinned, God knew it but still sought Adam's fellowship. It was Adam who hid himself from God. First among the trees and then with the apron of leaves that he constructed. God did something drastic that would appease Adam's conscience by killing an innocent animal since he knew that death was the penalty for sin ( though God meant spiritual death).

But, the sacrifice could never forever deal with man's guilty conscience because they had to be made every year and then immediately we would do something wrong and have to wait a year until the Day of Atonement again and we would still hide from God all year.

However, the death of Jesus which was done once for all should have dealt with the sin question forever. But, religion keeps men going into the confessional every week if you are RCC or keeps man running to I John 1:9 or the alter to rededicate every week because they do not get it that those who Jesus perfected (all of us) He has perfected forever.

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Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2007, 11:24:12 PM »



I don't know but I liken the "sacrifice" of "bulls and goats" to US trying to appease God with
our good works, there "is" a blessing for "obedience" .........of course, all the obedience in the world
done by "us" is not the "righteousness" of God, neither it is HIS blood, but more like the blood of
bulls and goats.......This is just a thought. I saw a little something earlier today on this, but I can't
remember where, I am so tired right now.  Hopefully, it'll come back to me.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 09:57:58 PM »
     To restate and develop a good point in the initial post by fullarmor2 . . .
     
     If Christ the substitute suffered, died and was buried, staying dead for 3 days, how could God require man without the substitute to suffer forever?  The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death."  Nowhere does it say, "The wages of sin is endless torture."  If that was the wages of sin then Jesus would have to be being tortured now and forever or he didn't pay the full penalty for sin (as Scripture says he did.)  The reality is death now has no more dominion over him.
     "And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.  Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee." (Dt 25:2-3)  Yet, many continue to insist in a God that beats with an infinite number of neverending stripes contrary to his own law, making him to appear vile in the sight of the world.  To even be considered a Christian some insist it is imperative to believe in such a God though no one I know has ever testified to meeting Him.  The one they say they've experienced is a wonderful Savior who saves and heals and fulfills the hearts deepest need.  And he has sworn that unto him shall all flesh come.

     Realize too, that what is usually translated as, "The life is in the blood," Scripture more literally has, "The soul is in the blood."  An illustration is the effect over a period of time from certain chemicals introduced into the bloodstream from outside the body.  Soma is a muscle relaxer and is prescribed for back pain.  Its effect psychologically is drepression.  The doctor might not even warn you.  If you accept that side-effect as yourself, you search for self (rather than externally) based reasons for your depression.  If an intoxicant or narcotic that removes judgement plus the after effects of a sleeping pill limiting higher reasoning is added:  people in such conditions have committed suicide because of the condition of their soul for which they weren't compensating.  We see here thought, will and emotion as a definite blood product.  The soul dimension has a physical componenet and is recognized as part of the outer man by Scripture (distinguished from the spirit which is the inner man.)
     In the resurrection Jesus blood that was poured out on the earth and carried beyond the heavens has been raised and is affecting the realm of physical embodiment as well as its related consciousness.  A day of revelation of his presence is approaching.  In his work on types and symbols in Scripture Fairburn points out that the old Rabbi's argued for the necessity of resurrection in order for the promise to Abraham to be fulfilled and glorified immortal bodies need a glorified earth as an appropriate environment.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 03:59:02 AM by reFORMer »
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Offline firstborn888

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2007, 10:17:47 AM »
I can't seem to get over a sense that a mystery is still hiding in all this.

The wages of sin were paid out when Adam, the Son of God, was driven out from the garden and away from the tree of life, that is, death (separation from life) was given out at that point.

Then, the wage 'reigned' from Adam to Moses, then REALLY reigned under the law until Jesus (which literally means: "the Eternal One has made free") dethroned the 'wages' and life began it's reign.

Anybody see what I'm getting at here? 

  - b
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 10:19:25 AM by firstborn888 »

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2007, 12:22:49 PM »
This is from J Preston Eby's writing "Reconciliation":

"What a hideous affront it is to the God of our salvation to wickedly accuse Him of needing to give His own Son as a propitiation to appease His own wrath, though this is the inexcusable lie we hear continually from the pulpit and over the air waves! God is portrayed by the preachers as so mad at sin and sinners, so violently angry and beside Himself that He is metaphorically foaming at the mouth with uncontrollable rage which can only be appeased by looking upon the bloody sweat and cruel, ugly death of His Son upon a Roman cross. All sermons and songs that picture God as a God of rage who must be "appeased" and "soothed" by blood are heathenish and should be piled on a bonfire and burned.

The Old Testament sacrifices serve as a beautiful revelation of God's love towards us, in His reconciliation. Whatever Israel brought to God was brought at His command and was an expression of their dependence upon Him. Sacrifice was not intended to make God gracious; it was brought in recognition of a grace which He Himself had assured. Every sacrifice was offered from. this point of view, and free from any thought of appeasing an angry and hostile God. The idea of man being able through the death of a victim, or through some act of self-immolation, to appease the anger of an offended deity or to change His mind toward the worshipper, has clung persistently to most pagan religions. How alien it was to the Israelitish conception of the relation between God and man is clear from the statement in Lev. 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls." Ah, God gave the sacrifice, and not to change His attitude toward man, but to change something about man! How could the blood of the sacrifice appease the wrath of God and make Him merciful toward man? It was the gracious, loving character of God that gave the sacrifice! "I have given it to you upon the altar." How clear that the blood of the sacrifice was not God-ward, it did not avail to make God gracious, for He against whom the offence had been committed has Himself provided the means of reconciliation!

Never was holiness more vindicated, than at the cross, when Jesus "suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God " (I Pet. 3:18). Never was love more lavishly outpoured than when "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have the life of the ages" (Jn. 3:16). Notice, dear reader, it does not say that God was so mad at the world, or so offended by the world, or so angry with the world, or so vengeful toward the world, or so caught in a dilemma because of His justice - but God so loved the world that He gave. Hallelujah! We stand in awe before this fulfillment of Gen. 22:8, when by the Spirit Abraham prophesied to Isaac, "God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering."
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth

Offline hopeful

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2007, 03:20:11 PM »
This is from J Preston Eby's writing "Reconciliation":

"What a hideous affront it is to the God of our salvation to wickedly accuse Him of needing to give His own Son as a propitiation to appease His own wrath, though this is the inexcusable lie we hear continually from the pulpit and over the air waves! God is portrayed by the preachers as so mad at sin and sinners, so violently angry and beside Himself that He is metaphorically foaming at the mouth with uncontrollable rage which can only be appeased by looking upon the bloody sweat and cruel, ugly death of His Son upon a Roman cross. All sermons and songs that picture God as a God of rage who must be "appeased" and "soothed" by blood are heathenish and should be piled on a bonfire and burned.


Thanks for posting this Floyd.

I think the image of a "god of rage that must be appeased" mainly springs from man's carnal approach to the scriptures which then are carnally interpreted.  I think a correct image of God can only spring from a relationship with Him.  Did that make sense?
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Offline Taffy

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2007, 03:45:09 PM »
Quote from:  Hopeful
Thanks for posting this Floyd.

I think the image of a "god of rage that must be appeased" mainly springs from man's carnal approach to the scriptures which then are carnally interpreted. 

Indeed Hopeful ,the carnal mind is enmity , and sure does Block the TRUE SPIRIT of HIS word.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Blessings
Taffy
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Michele

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2007, 05:06:39 PM »
I can't seem to get over a sense that a mystery is still hiding in all this.

The wages of sin were paid out when Adam, the Son of God, was driven out from the garden and away from the tree of life, that is, death (separation from life) was given out at that point.

Then, the wage 'reigned' from Adam to Moses, then REALLY reigned under the law until Jesus (which literally means: "the Eternal One has made free") dethroned the 'wages' and life began it's reign.

Anybody see what I'm getting at here? 

  - b

IMO......as long as there is knowledge of Good and Evil.....sin will extist, and we will continue to judge ourselves and those around us.


Offline studier

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2007, 09:05:50 PM »
There was no relevance for the amount of time that Jesus was in the grave, to time served. That is a western concept. The satisfaction came in the death of Jesus Christ. So what was the three days all about? It was to be a sign to the disciples and the world, the sign of Jonah.

Michele

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2007, 09:23:05 PM »
There was no relevance for the amount of time that Jesus was in the grave, to time served. That is a western concept. The satisfaction came in the death of Jesus Christ. So what was the three days all about? It was to be a sign to the disciples and the world, the sign of Jonah.

I think that's true Craig.....and I do believe that time is relative.

Offline studier

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2007, 10:22:11 PM »
I can't seem to get over a sense that a mystery is still hiding in all this.

The wages of sin were paid out when Adam, the Son of God, was driven out from the garden and away from the tree of life, that is, death (separation from life) was given out at that point.

Then, the wage 'reigned' from Adam to Moses, then REALLY reigned under the law until Jesus (which literally means: "the Eternal One has made free") dethroned the 'wages' and life began it's reign.

Anybody see what I'm getting at here? 

  - b

Hey B, UltimateGrace is down for some reason so 'hey there!'

Let me add to your thoughts, as you know I agree.

The mystery of death is, it is not the enemy unless it has the sting. There is no victory for death without it's sting and that mystery is the sting of death is sin. From what we been taught, erroneously, is that the sting of sin is death. We were taught, erroneously, that death is the enemy without exception because we were taught the 'last enemy to be destroyed was death.' We were taught, erroneously, to think that means death should be no more, since it is destroyed. I believe that is where the mystery begins, erroneously.

To destroy an enemy is not always to annihilate it. We read 1 Corinthians 15:26 which says, "The last enemy to be destroyed was death'. We read about the entire context until 54-56, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law."

Now follow this. The word 'destroyed' is "katarge"

KATARGE
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power

Another definition of KATARGE I found used is:
'De-energize'.

I believe without a doubt, death has always been around but death has not always been the enemy. In the garden, there were trees with seed bearing fruit, a tree of knowledge, and a tree of life. This is discussion that has caused much tension, but it needs to be understood and linked together. Seed bearing fruit, means the trees die. When Adam transgressed the command and ate of the tree of knowledge, he became aware of it. In fact, I believe the Adam did not know he was naked until after he ate, Adam did not realize he was mortal until after he ate, Adam was not aware he was made of dust until after he ate and was not aware to dust he would return until after he ate. The penalty was not death, because it was always there. The penalty was the seperation from the Tree of Life as a result of one man's sin, which gave death it's power, as you said.

Death has always been with us from the beginning even with those who did not sin. (Romans 5:14). Death was even with Jesus Christ, who knew no sin and did not sin. So death exists, even when sin is not taken into account. If we thought death was the enemy without exception, not death with its sting, we are caught in an unsolvable mystery, which we must accept blindly. The reality is, as you explained with much less words, the sting of death is sin and to destroy, disarm, de-energize, or deprive death of it's power, is in actuality to remove the sting.

This leads to the most obvious conclusion, which is nolonger a mystery. Victory comes in the removal of sin! Not in the removal of death.

The removal of sin came through reconciliation of the world through Jesus Christ who died but the death that took Him had no power. Jesus who knew no sin, and did not sin, yet died did not die as a result of sin! He died as a sacrificial lamb for the sins of the world once and for all. Thus, a perpetual sacrifice to atone for all mankind.  Colossians 2:15, "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." Thus from that day forward, death has no sting. The sins of the world are not counted against the world, this is the message of reconciliation. We have have been in the Garden, Paradise, ever since.

Now the mystery is death does not dissapear, but it is rather, swallowed up by Life. I know I opened more questions then answers with this reply, though you are right it is a mystery, but I believe a very solvable one.

Reconciliation removed the sting of death.
Resurrection brought salvation to all.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:06:55 PM by Craig »

Offline Kratos

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 05:31:03 AM »
I think that we see it backwards when we see the death of Christ as needed to appease God. It has been preached from pulpits for centuries that God cannot fellowship with sin because of His holiness. I am not making light of man's sinfullness or God's holiness, but when Adam sinned, God knew about it and still came looking for Adam to fellowship with him in His sinfull state. The truth is that if God could not fellowship with sinful man, He would have no one to fellowship with regardless of what those who think they have already come to sanctification might say or believe.

When man sinned and became aware of good and evil, it made Him instantly aware of the vast gulf between God's goodness and man's sinfulness. The breaking of fellowship with man was because of man's conscience. Adam hid from God. It was not the other way around. Notice what this verse really says:

Isa 59:1  Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2  But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


The institutional church reads these verses and stresses that man's sins keep God from being able to stand to be around us. Even through the blood of Jesus, they say, God has to hold his nose to be around us. But what does the Word really say? It says that God's arm is not short and His ear is not too heavy to hear. The problem is not on God's side in our inability to fellowship. So it must mean that our sin does something to us that keeps us from fellowshipping with God.

According to Hebrews 9 and 10, this was exactly what was wrong with the Old Covenant. God provided sacrifice for sin to appease man's conscience so He could fellowship with us, but these sacrifices had to be done year by year because we could not imagine that the blood of one natural lamb or goat could ever take away sin. The Day of Atonement would finally come around the the lamb was slain and Israel felt clean before God. But, by the next day, they would yell at the wife or kick the dog and they would again not feel holy enough to spend time with God and would have to wait a whole year to feel clean again. It has always been about our sin consciousness and not God's holiness.

Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)


The Old Covenant could never take away sin. It only cleansed our conscience for a short time so we still spent more time feeling guilty before God than we did in fellowship with Him. But, Jesus forgave sin once and for all. He not only forgave every sin we have ever committed, but He has already born the punishment for every one we ever will commit. This was God's plan to perfect forever those who are saved as pertaining to our conscience which the Old Covenant could never do.

Unfortuntely, Mystery Babylon, the Harlot counterfeit for the Church, continues to keep God's people in bondage to sin consciousness. They preach the constant need to "go to confession" or to "come to the alter" or to "apply the blood" every time we sin. There is no ministry in Heaven of applying blood today. It was done once and for all, but ministers do not want you to know this. They want you continually guilty so they keep themselves in a job or they think you cannot handle the truth.

As a man sees himself so is he and as long as we see ourselves as sinners saved by grace we will continue to be a sinning church. But, if we ever get the Word in our hearts and really cleanse our consciousness of sin, we will be able to live boldly in His pressence and His holiness will become our own.

John

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Seeking a Kingdom whose Builder and Maker is God

laren

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 05:47:12 AM »

Thank you John.  Awesome post. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 09:06:32 AM by SeekerSA »

Offline studier

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2007, 09:03:49 AM »
Quote
Unfortuntely, Mystery Babylon, the Harlot counterfeit for the Church, continues to keep God's people in bondage to sin consciousness. They preach the constant need to "go to confession" or to "come to the alter" or to "apply the blood" every time we sin. There is no ministry in Heaven of applying blood today. It was done once and for all, but ministers do not want you to know this. They want you continually guilty so they keep themselves in a job or they think you cannot handle the truth.

Amen.

Offline Sarah

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2007, 04:40:17 PM »
You made that really clear John.

 :girlheart:

Offline AbbasChild

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Re: Something I wondered
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2007, 11:35:02 AM »
Good word John. The idea that Jesus died to appease our Heavenly Father was the first thing that went out of the window as soon as I had experienced Abba's unconditional love  and I think that laid the foundation stone for seeing UR about four years later. I just found this writing by John Gavazzonie that confirms to me what you wrote:

The Great Misrepresentation

John R Gavazzoni

September 2, 1998

As a young evangelist, I was full of youthful confidence that I had been commissioned by God to tell the world the truth about its sin and about the Savior. I was also confident that I had a biblically sound, orthodox and even penetrating understanding of what the gospel was all about. Possessed of a certain pulpit charisma and a real, though minimal, anointing, I was a preacher and gospel singer who could shoot from both hips and my ammunition belt was heavy with sin, judgment and salvation proof-texts. I could even throw in some half-decent piano playing and rousing song leading. I was God's one-man posse, ready to shoot them sinners dead with conviction and raise them to life with the gospel.

I was not a religious charlatan. I had experienced a dramatic and genuine conversion at age sixteen and almost immediately began to sing and preach the gospel with youthful zeal and a contemporary fundamentalist bias. I loved the Lord and sincerely wanted to serve Him. The call of God was on my life and I was convinced that I was thoroughly grounded in the fundamentals of the faith. Yet, while my message had elements of the pure gospel of Christ, it was also laced with doctrinal poison.

I unwittingly incorporated into the message concepts that were subtly diabolical and borrowed from ancient paganism. With the mentoring I had received from sincere men, how could I know my understanding of the gospel included a spiritual-Babylon mixture of truth and error? I did not know that my perception of God's relationship with man had become colored by corrupted religious tradition and that the spirit of Nimrod had infected my mind. This left me with a God who was both heavenly and hellish.

I had a God of forgiveness but one who would only forgive after inflicting sufficient punishment; a God of grace who would be gracious only after extracting a blood-payment. How deviously the pagan idea of deities who demanded the sacrifice of the purest and most innocent before they would grant their bounty, had worked itself into the edifice of my theology and in fact, made up much of its foundation. I, who went forth to represent God, in the name of Christ, was found often misrepresenting Him.

It is a testimony to the power of the gospel that in my preaching, something of the essence of His grace did shine through and many entered into a saving relationship with Christ.

It is important, I believe, at this point, in order to keep my readers with me, to emphatically declare my allegiance to the great cardinal tenets of the historic Christian faith. I have held them and will continue to hold them dear to my heart. I hold nothing more precious than the Christ of whom they speak. I am one in conviction with you if you affirm the true deity and humanity of our Lord; His virgin birth; the necessity of His sacrificial death for the reconciling of the world; His bodily resurrection from the dead; His glorious appearing to judge the living and the dead and to the God-breathed normative record of this good news given to us in holy scripture! I had to make this clear because from this point on in the article, I will be more specific as to the nature of the perversion that influenced me and by doing so will almost certainly confront some of my readers with their own complicity in the heresy that lies at the heart of conventional orthodoxy.

Is the professing orthodox community completely wrong about everything? Of course not! But they are completely wrong about some very vital things. A picture comes to my mind, even as I write, of playing a game with a flashlight when we were children.

We would go into a dark room and frighten one another by shining a flash light upward under our chins so as to make our faces appear fiendish. We have done this to God's face, with light that is darkness and made the face of our God appear to be that of a fiend. What follows strikes at the heart of the matter, but is not at all exhaustive, so God willing, I will enlarge upon things in future articles.

At the heart of the fallacies of fundamentalism (not to mention the lies of liberalism) is the distorted perception of the doctrine of reconciliation as believed by the majority of Christians. Let me a attempt an explanation of this understanding which is certainly undergirded and encouraged by conservative theologians. Here we go: We have all sinned (evangelicals seem to always take sin as their starting point).

Our sin has so offended the righteous, holy God that He cannot in justice overlook it. In fact, He is so offended that His justice demands that we go to the place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41), since we have followed the devil in his sin, and there be tormented forever and ever without end in the fiery pit of hell. Nothing less than unending anguish without end can satisfy the wrath of the offended deity. (I never heard anyone explain how, since it never ends, it could ever satisfy God's justice, but let's not complicate things early on.) This rationale goes on to say that God doesn't really want this to happen to anyone; so He came up with a plan.

He would accept a substitute to vicariously "do the time" for us. This substitute would not really go to hell for all eternity for us, but simply suffer awhile and then die for our sins and that would be acceptable as a substitute, since the value of His life (God's son's life, that is) is worth more than all of our lives and would be the equivalent of our going to hell forever. So the suffering and death of Jesus, God's son, appeases, propitiates, and satisfies God so He no longer has to do those terrible things to us.

Unfortunately, He ends up doing it to the vast majority of those who will ever live because most of the race will not accept what God did for them and that will make God mad again even though most of them have never heard the good news that God beat up on His only Son for them.

Now to repeat, at the heart of the preceding scenario, is the idea that God needs to be reconciled to man. Pardon my language, but let's put it in the common man's language - God is ticked-off! He's looking for blood. Of course, it's an act of love since He gave His own Son and not someone else's, but this makes it confusing. Just what kind of a God is He? We are told to believe that Jesus' death made Him conciliatory toward man. Otherwise, He's got this enormous petulant perfection problem in His heart, but Jesus' blood takes care of that - well, kind of.

But you see, the New Testament never speaks of God being reconciled to man. Without exception, it always teaches the reconciliation of man to God, by the death of Christ, to be sure, but there is no teaching in the Bible that would lead us to infer that the reconciling work of Christ was necessary to solve a problem within God, a problem within Himself that would keep God from being conciliatory toward us until He was presented with atoning blood. Such a god was the god Baal (I Kings 16:31-32; 18:26-29; Ps. 106:28; Jer. 11:17; 19:5; 32:35; Zeph. 1:4-5) and the god Molech (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5; Jer. 32:35) and the gods of the Mayans and Aztecs from whose altars ran a literal river of blood to insure that the demon posing as a god would hear their petitions.

True divine justice does not take an obstinate stance of condemnation until it gets its pound of flesh. True divine justice justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5). Why? Because at the heart of the message of the cross of Christ is the truth that God takes responsibility for the ungodly (Rom. 5:6). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (II Cor. 5:19). God in human form permitted us to murder Him to convince us that He is resolute and steadfast in His love for us. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the ultimate friend of sinners.
In the old covenant, we begin to see the meaning of the blood when Jehovah says to the Israelites, "I have given you the blood upon the altar" (Lev. 17:11). We need the blood, not God! The Lord spoke these words to me as He unfolded the meaning of reconciliation. he said, "I am not the god who demands blood. I am the God who gives blood" Oh, precious words!

What is it about the death of Christ that reconciles us to God? According to II Cor. 5:14-15, when Christ died, the whole world died with Him. "We thus judge that if one died for all then all died" (Vs. 14, best translation). So we were present in Christ when He died - we were included in Him, but God was also in Christ. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." (Vs. 19). God and man were present there in Christ on the cross. God was communicating to man His conciliating love and man, in Christ, got the message. The blood got to Him and man was reconciled. On the cross, Jesus said, "It is finished" (Jn. 19:30).

As the Son of God, the fullness of Deity was present in Him and as the son of man, all of humanity was present. As man struck the mortal blow to Jesus, God kissed the killer and broke his rebellious heart. What is it about the death of Christ that reconciles us? It is this: that the love of God does not miss a beat, does not falter, does not hesitate, does not raise a conditional warning or even an objection, but forgives us while we are torturing and killing His Son. Please, dear reader, ponder this thought:

When Christ prayed "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" (Lk. 23:34), His prayer did not initiate, inspire or motivate the Father to forgive, but rather, His Father's forgiveness freely given in the moment of supreme offense, moved Christ to agree in prayer. Yet many of our historic Christian confessions imply or clearly state that the Father can justify us ONLY IF there is a vicarious blood-letting. God was not waiting for the blood of Christ to be present to Him so that He, in justice, could be free to forgive, but instead God, who was in Christ, presents His blood at the door of our hearts, freeing us to surrender to His forgiveness. You'll note that this is the exact opposite of what the church has been teaching for centuries.

The Father seeks worshippers to worship Him in Spirit and in Reality. For this reason, the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. He came to bring us to the Father by bringing the Father to us. The word "worship" comes from "worthship" meaning God seeks to bring us to know His worth. We are made whole as we realize the worth of God and only then, in the light of His worth can we know our own. Conventional theology in the area we have discussed de-values God; makes of Him a base material rather than the gold that He is and disables us from worshipping Him with the loving abandonment He deserves.

Once we allow the inclusion of heathen concepts about placating the deity, it becomes much easier to believe as the majority of Christendom does that when all is said and done, this God who goes to such gory lengths to satisfy His justice will never be satisfied but will end up with a comparatively tiny little flock to party with throughout all eternity while countless millions writhe in an endless hell of unimaginable horror.

There is a growing number of believers who are beginning to see through this satanic portrayal of our Father, those whom He has called. This is the day of His appearing, His parousia, the unveiling of Him that we might see Him as He is, no longer through the stained glass of idolatry. Yes, I mean idolatry, for we have taken to ourselves the heathen propensity to imagine superhuman versions of their own fallen selves and then call those imaginings, gods. We, in turn, have taken our fallen ideas of vengeance, vindictiveness and retribution and have projected them onto our Father and Savior and have created an idol. Am I saying that there is no true vein of worship in the organized church? Of course not!

What I am saying is that it is mixed with heathen worship as has been the case so often in the history of the people of God. The great tendency has always been to mix the religion of Babylon with the religion of the prophets, and only in the most extreme occasions to totally deny the God of Israel. "In times past, God winked at their ignorance but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). At the beginning of the gospel era, this living command went forth from the throne of God and has been steadily bringing minds and hearts under its sway.

Though at many times it would appear that the darkness would overcome the light. Nevertheless, with this living command comes an energy that is causing the light to shine in ever increasing intensity. It cannot be hid under a bushel, but will shine as a city set on a hill (Matt. 5:14-15). It will arise as the dawning of the day to dispel all darkness from the land.

Soon Christ, who is the radiance of God's glory will shine forth from His people so that the Father's image will no longer be defaced and His name no longer suffer gross misrepresentation, for "The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Habakkuk 2:14).

Stay tuned for future serious, seminal samplings.

John Gavazzoni
It is much more possible for the sun to give out darkness than for God to do or be, or give out anything but Blessing and Goodness.- William Law

Man can certainly flee from God... but he cannot escape him. He can certainly hate God and be hateful to God, but he cannot change into its opposite the eternal love of God which triumphs even in his hate. --Karl Barth