Author Topic: some more questions  (Read 1310 times)

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waitinontheLamb

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some more questions
« on: July 07, 2008, 07:11:24 AM »
Okay, had a few to think on all that occurred and decided that I will just bypass that which I believe to be unhelpful and antagonistic.

Anyhoo,

I have a question about those passages in Hebrews. I am sure this has been discussed but I don't see them anywhere so I will pose them.

Don't have my Bible right here with me, but the passages are in chapters six and ten, I believe. One says that if you fall away, it is impossible to renew you to repentance and that you only have a fearful expectation of judgment to look forward to.

And the other says that if we sin after knowing the truth, there is no further sacrifice available.

These two have caused me some issue in the past. I have done a LOT of study on them and feel okay about what is going on and all, but have never heard a UR discussion on them. All I have ever studied and seen revolved around historical teaching on this subject. Anyway, thanks in advance.

martincisneros

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 07:34:25 AM »
Don't have my Bible right here with me, but the passages are in chapters six and ten, I believe. One says that if you fall away, it is impossible to renew you to repentance and that you only have a fearful expectation of judgment to look forward to.

And the other says that if we sin after knowing the truth, there is no further sacrifice available.

Actually, UR is a historical teaching.  Our worst critics that won't allow that this was taught in the Apostolic age will usually allow for it's beginnings in the early 3rd century, late 2nd.  You've just heard one side of "historical teaching."

Impossible to renew to repentance before punishment/judgment.  What's hard to understand about that, without imposing endless damnation on it?  Christians fail to repent all of the time of all of the animal products and sweets being carried to an excess and come down with diabetes and other issues.  Many people are punished/judged all of the time because they couldn't be brought to repentance before some evil befell them.  Proves nothing to the point of endless punishment.  I think that Hebrews 6 mentions age-lasting judgment, but of course the "Authorized Version" will insist upon "eternal judgment."  Hebrews 6 goes on to talk about land that gets burned, which may have been talking about the impending judgment upon Jerusalem in 70AD since some scholars believe that Hebrews was written to the Christians in Jerusalem.  Impossible to renew them again to repentance is a part of the Hebrews 6 passage, though, and I don't want to seem to evade.  They've crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh and have held Him up to open scorn.  The passage does seem to be peculiarly 1st century with the whole issue over whether Jesus really was the Messiah, and whether or not the Torah should be observed exclusively without regard for the teachings of Jesus.

Hebrews 6 ends with the promise of the unchangeableness of His counsel which He spoke to Abraham that those who blessed Him would be blessed and those who cursed Him would be cursed, and in his Seed all of the families of the earth would be blessed, or in other words, every cursing would have to end in blessing when it had acheived it's purpose.  You really do need to restudy the whole Old Testament along the lines of judgment, sin being visited to the 3rd and 4th generation which is the Old Testament equivalent of not being forgiven in this age or in the age to come.  In Judges the tribe of Benjamin got "cut off," yet the passage clearly indicates that all they meant was that there were no women for the tribe of Benjamin to marry.  Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.  The descendants of Esau were absorbed into the house of Jacob in the time of the Macabees and no longer exist as a distinct people any more in fulfillment of His Word to Obadiah, and Romans 9-11 is saying that the world and the pruned branches will likewise and in like manner be absorbed into the New Man.  All of this is so interrelated to where it's hard to answer something on an individual passage without seeming flippant or evasive if you're not on the same page with us about beaucoup Scriptures.  You can't show me a single translation where the Valley of Hinnom is translated as "hell" in the Old Testament, unless it's in some odd paraphrase that I've never read through like the Message paraphrase or something like that.

Hebrews 10:  if there's no more a sacrifice for sin REJOICE!!  As far as how much sorer punishment do you suppose will they be thought worthy who've trodden under foot the covenant, which is probably more along the lines of what you were referring to.  This word "punishment" in Hebrews 10 is a kin to a word used in the book of Acts that simply means persecution.  Persecuted by the Spirit that they've outraged?  Or simply outside of the realm of God's protection and turned over to the Judaizers (which is the point of the book of Hebrews in presenting an antidote to) for the Judaizers to do with one whatever they'd wish?  Difficult to dogmatize about what's being spoken of.  And then the preterists will be along shortly that'll muddy the water for you a little further and say that Christians that committed this sin were probably a part of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD when everybody got killed or sold into slavery, although there are historical references that'll claim that no Christians died in Jerusalem when it hit the fan in 70AD.

If we sin, there's no more sacrifice for sin because if we confess our sin, He's faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  If these answers don't suffice, press me and the rest of us with more specific questions about the passage and between all of us, I'm sure you'll come away with a BIBLICAL ANSWER that'll suffice.

martincisneros

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 08:04:24 AM »
If by "historical teaching" you simply mean teachings that go back to the Reformation:  if you'll stick around long enough, you'll see me citing UR books that pretty much go all of the way back to the Reformation.  I wanted to read "the best" in UR books when people supposedly worked 12hrs a day and read their Bibles 8hrs a day and all of those types of stories that we hear about Puritan America.  Right now, I've read much of the best into the early parts of the 1700s.  I'm working on getting my hands on a few titles from earlier.  Takes a while to believe in the money [or the books] when you're dealing with earlier and earlier books.  Only one side of the Reformation is usually presented in many of the history books that are easy to get in mainstream Churches and their bookstores.  You can find other history books that'll fill in the rest of the history.  I promise you, that with a statement like the one that you've made -- even if you had a doctorate in Church History, you're likely not to have bumped into the tens of thousands of pages of history on Christian Universalism.  And contrary to the popular claims, you won't find our histories in the occult section either! :icon_jokercolor:

Hosea Ballou and Thomas Whittemore wrote books called:

The Ancient History of Universalism

The Modern History of Universalism

Not sure who wrote which 'cause I own neither.  I think some friends have a copy of both, but I've sorta left them alone to get some rest since their recent move since I know how much of a killer moving to a new place can be.  Plus, I think of those books when I think of them and not always when I'm writing an email or have someone on the phone, know what I mean?  Charles or Paula might have mailed them to me by now if I'd decided to be a pest about those books 'cause they know they'd get 'em back.  But I just say "ah-well, I'll read those someday" and probably won't think of it again after I've posted this until I see some online reference or bump into someone that brings something up.  I usually just consult a few online articles and some different volumes that are at the public library by where I live.  There's a two volume set on the first 200 years of UR in the United States that are at the library by where I live called "The Larger Hope."  I'm thinking that the author is Russell Miller, but I'm not 100% sure on that.  Big ol' books though that I've enjoyed thoroughly even if I'm not 100% sure on the author's name.  There is so much of "the other side" of history when you're dealing with anything, that you've got to be willing to ask some odd questions when you're hunting for books to make sure that you're tracking down more useful titles that give you a fuller picture of everything.  Not just on this, but on anything.

History books are what the author wanted to study and/or write about.  Period.  So, when you think about it.  You've really got to look among the "heretics" to find the rest of the historical accounts.



I was very happy to discover later after having posted this subsequent post that someone else had posted to this thread after me, and that it was on target with the actual questions and that I hadn't accidentally hijacked this thread with this second post of mine to this thread.  It's nearly impossible these days to get a rise out of me any more.  Been through too much.  Got the full set of Christ's scars, how about you?  But, I felt like I needed to say something [briefly] as to this having been a belief in every age of the Church from it's beginning, even if not a majority point of view in recent centuries.


« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 12:58:03 PM by martincisneros »

Mickiel

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 08:47:03 AM »
Okay, had a few to think on all that occurred and decided that I will just bypass that which I believe to be unhelpful and antagonistic.

Anyhoo,

I have a question about those passages in Hebrews. I am sure this has been discussed but I don't see them anywhere so I will pose them.

Don't have my Bible right here with me, but the passages are in chapters six and ten, I believe. One says that if you fall away, it is impossible to renew you to repentance and that you only have a fearful expectation of judgment to look forward to.

And the other says that if we sin after knowing the truth, there is no further sacrifice available.

These two have caused me some issue in the past. I have done a LOT of study on them and feel okay about what is going on and all, but have never heard a UR discussion on them. All I have ever studied and seen revolved around historical teaching on this subject. Anyway, thanks in advance.



Well I think it is impossible for a human to NOT sin after knowing the truth. I myself have fallen away from many things , after knowing the truth. Knowing the truth does not keep you from falling, it may keep you from certain misunderstandings, but its not a card blanch to keep you from falling. I think its impossible for a person who knows the  truth to keep from falling. As if we can just pick ourselves up and grant renewal unto ourselves. Since when is falling NOT a part of Gods plan of Salvation? Since when is the impossible not a part of Gods mentality? What is impossible to a person who has fallen away from the truth, is NOT impossible to God! No fallen away believer or unbeliever is impossible for God to fetch back to his reality.

Peace.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 04:13:06 PM »
Hb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.


We must never forget that we must take the whole bible into consideration in order to try to see what something means.

What I see is that Christ needn't die all over again everytime we sin, that Christs sacrifice was a permanent one and he is not in shame over having FAILED just because we are not perfect yet.  Yet, if we believe that we must offer sacrifice for our sin everytime, we shame Christs  power we shame his purpose. 

So, what else in the bible can we use to go along with this? 

God never stops looking and seeking and drawing his lost sheep to Christ who already paid the price.



waitinontheLamb

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 04:54:05 AM »
Thanks for the replies. They make a lot of sense.

Martin, I did not mean to rile you. Was merely meaning the view you get in most all of the circles.

Offline Davo22

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 02:33:28 AM »
Hebrews 10:26-31 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Just before this, Paul explains why we are to hold unswervingly to this hope: "He who promised is faithful" (10:23).

The very reason it is sinful to lose faith is because he doesn't lose faith in us! And the reason it is dreadful to fall into the hands of the living God is because he grabs us against our will, and brings us back to the sheepfold. On an every day level, how do you feel when you reject the truth, but it comes anyway?

We are motivated not out of fear, but out of love, as we return the favor to God who loved us first. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 02:39:12 AM by Davo22 »
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Offline Davo22

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 02:34:06 AM »
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Offline Dallas

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Re: some more questions
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 06:45:52 AM »
Quote
One says that if you fall away, it is impossible to renew you to repentance and that you only have a fearful expectation of judgment to look forward to.

And the other says that if we sin after knowing the truth, there is no further sacrifice available
.

Very specificly refering to The Jews.

The first one is talking about The Hebrew people as a whole and they have become an example that Paul uses to encourage and teach the new believers that the unrepentant Jew would indeed recieve judgement.

This is also true, about the other. For once a person understands that Jesus was a sacrifice for all time, there can be no other sacrifice, therefore if you again return to temple sacrifice you make a mockery of Christ, how can once for all be done again?