So i told my sibling that I don't believe in an unending Hell.

[seeker411]

Her response.

Are you sure your a Christian and that your not going to Hell.   

I was like HUH?   

I told her that the word Hell doesn't even exist in the Greek or Hebrew and that it is derived ONLY from parables and the word Gahenna.

She was like: you need to repent.

......

Why do some christians think this way....  I think its cause they think their salvation is based on..

1) God gives you a choice of Heaven or Hell...
2) Jesus Christ can save you.
3) Christians choose #2

As soon as you take Hell out of the equation their whole mental basis for salvation falls through the floor.

I believe in Christ as my personal savior.....

He is my savior from MY SIN which the Bible actually talks about..and from judgment to come.....death. " For the wages of sin is DEATH."

I have submitted to Him and Follow his words...I don't see Jesus as a ticket out of some fire pit who yells get your free pass here.

"So what am are you saved from" she asks.

I say: death and judgment for my sins....

Her response:  I hope your still going to heaven.

[rosered]

 Hi Seeker 411 
 we are in hell / grave  /torment till the Lord draws us to Himself , there is no life outside of God
  He lifts us up out of the Body of Death into Life  that is the Body of Christ His dear Son
   to me anyways 
 I so wish there was an easier way to tell folks without the shock to their system / of mindset /way of  thinking 
  I was  leary to  and  made me dig in deeper  , you could say the Lord put that desire  in my heart to seek and  ask and knock   till HE opens  the  door [ heavens door ]       the Kingdom of  Heaven/God is peace and joy in His Spirit ...  we know  the righteousness is from God and not of ourselves   
 Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Not critisizing here, but those of us that came out of believing that God would allow a person to remain in hell for all eternity come to understand that at one point we were no more willing to change our minds than the ones we speak to now.

I have come to understand to a certain degree anyway, how God works things.  It is not so important that your sibling listen to you and change perspectives as it is to understand that you were willing to put whatever relationship you have with your sibling at risk.   

I have varied in the path I have taken to undertanding, and of course, have more to learn, much more.  Both my Sons and my wife know that I do not believe in a permanant hell, and we have had discussions and arguments over the issue.   I counted on my oldest sons reasoning ability and tenacity to not back down to allow us to work through things and come to agreement on the general aspect of the UR perspective so that we can move forward in encouragement rather than division.  Someone elses path through that may be much more difficult,  i am not through in my path here as not all of my family, especially the ones my thoughts would say will be even more resistant and judgmental towards me knowing I believe UR.

It would have been much easier to just keep to myself as far as the trial of admitting what I believe.  But in the long run it is more peaceful because I do not have to hide my beliefs nor apologize for them.

That trial has given me greater confidence to just let it out and not hide it from the remainder of my family.  It will be an interesting journey, that I can gaurantee.   

[Nathan]

I am learning that us sharing is all a big part of us reproducing after his own kind.  How can I reproduce his nature in others if I don't plant these seeds in them?  I felt this way about sharing it with the church as well.  This hell thing has been one of the more recent platforms we've allowed God to remove from us and I was floored at just how easy it was recieved this time around.  It's an amazing thing to experience when the soil has been properly prepared for the planting.

At the same time, I to have siblings that immediately show their remorse that I have left my first love.  My mother constantly wrestles with my Dad because she is and he isn't.  And seldom does a conversation go by between my parents and my siblings that my name doesn't come up which is sometimes a mixed blessing.  My Dad loves to debate with anyone who will listen. And once he gets started, that's about all you "can" do is listen because you rarely get in a word between breaths. 

For the most part, they choose not to get to much in detail.  They spend more time trying to work through Mom and Dad's differences with it than what "it" is itself.  When I'm around at their home, I don't bring it up, not in front of Dad anyway.  I just recently did set down with one of my brothers and discussed it . . .of the 5 brothers and sisters that I have, 3 of them are actively involved in church and church ministries.  My two brothers are very open with things, my sister, not so much. 

None of them see what we see, but those who embrace the Word the most, are the ones that accept my perspectives the least.  Some days I feel free enough to share things with them at times and I throw out some seeds and sometimes they get thrown back and other times they don't.  I trust the ones that didn't will be watered and take root in God's plan in their lives and they to can come into the freedom of what Truth is all about.

[reFORMer]

They almost certainly have never studied this subject.  Other sample topics could be chosen for their shock value in preparation.  Using a concordance, they can look as long as they like for a phrase like: "go to heaven," or, "seven year(s) great tribulation," perhaps.  "Go to church" is another phrase never occuring in Holy Writ, much to many people's surprise.

You can ask them just how would they go about studying such a topic as "hell," or, "the duration of pain," or, "what is actually said to go into the lake of fire."  (Use the computer or put it on paper,  proposition on top, three columns:  particular element of the proposition, pro and con Scripture; maybe a page each for just a few words looked up in a concordance.  This is jut a suggestion.)  The use of a concordance should be obvious.

What I find is that most "Christians" don't study for themselves and don't even know how.  I wasn't taught in all my years growing up in various churches.  I had to learn how to do this a little bit at a time.  To respect God's communication to us we must accept it is in Hebrew and Greek so we need to use tools (free on the internet) to go to the original languages at times.  I found too that through the use of concordances we have the means to implement the authority of Scripture.  How can it be authoritative to us if we don't know what it says?  Many only go on what they've heard, never thinking to verify for themselves what it actually says.  There's not very much to examine to reach a conclusion on this particular topic.

It's difficult to get most people to read anything so it is important to find something short, decisive and concise if you offer them something to read.  It's all the harder to get them to read something they think is false doctrine.  I've found that particular fear prevents us from grappling with things in reality, keeping us in ignorant supposition however reassuring the proponents of tradition seem. (cp., 1 John 4:5-6)  If you need to understand something, go to the source.  While someone else's survey may save time, it's at least once removed from what concerns us.  To be an authority you have to go to the source.

[martincisneros]

But if enough people say something for enough centuries, isn't it automatically true?

[reFORMer]

But if enough people say something for enough centuries, isn't it automatically true?

You're making my eyes go crossed...

[martincisneros]

I've confided in one person. My cousin, an Assembly of God ordained PASTOR, who now attends a Free Methodist church.

His responce:
"In answer to your last email as well as this one:
Belief in universal salvation will not condemn anyone (oxymoron?) We aren't saved by believing in certain doctrines about judgment, baptism, whether or not spiritual gifts are applicable today, whether or not we worship on Sat. or Sun., whether or not we're pre trib, mid-trib, or post trib, whether or not God created the universe in 6 literal days or did it through evolution over millions of years, etc.
We're saved when we put our trust in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. That includes repenting of sin and beginning to live a repentant life availing ourselves of continual cleansing by His blood through confession and receiving forgiveness (1st John 1:5-2:2). We are born again (John 1:10-13) and we rest in the assurance of what He has done and is doing in our lives (1st John 5:10-13). With salvation comes spiritual (maybe not logical) understanding of the triune nature of God, a desire to obey the great commandments and see the great commission fulfilled. We will experience growth as we stay attached to the Vine, and fruit-the Holy Spirit working in and through us. And ultimately, as you said in your last email, we nurture a relationship based on trust of an utterly trustworthy God.
Beyond that, I encourage you to accept the fact that there are many opinions about the above mentioned doctrines and others. They're interesting to research and discuss, but I'd be careful about coming to hard and fast conclusions about anything except (1) how we come into relationship with God, (2) the nature of God, and (3) growing in grace and the knowledge of God, i.e. the process of becoming like Jesus (Gal. 5:6b).
God is sovereign, and He is absolutely reliable. I don't have to fully understand everything. When I teach other doctrines at our Bible study, I usually share as many of the views as I can. But on central doctrine mentioned above-there is no wavering. Hopefully, we're informed and focused on Jesus and Him crucified and raised on the third day; returning at some point to take us to be with Him forever.
Some are very opinionated. I feel that the Body of Christ needs to set aside our differences, focus on the essential, and get on with seeing the great commission fulfilled as we obey the great commandments. The issue of unity is so critical to that task (Schaeffer's "The Mark of a Christian").
I think what you're doing in regard to schooling is wise. In the beginning of my walk I was blessed to have about two years of informal Bible training by wonderful Spirit-filled teachers. Enjoy! Even more so, enjoy your secure position in Christ-"The righteous shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:16&17) He is our wisdom, righteousness, holiness, and redemption. (1st Cor. 1:10-31)
Again, I'm very grateful for our bond in Jesus!

You actually got a Biblical answer? :omg: Your cousin's actually read through the New Testament then!  Cool

[Molly]

Belief in universal salvation will not condemn anyone (oxymoron?) We aren't saved by believing in certain doctrines about judgment, baptism, whether or not spiritual gifts are applicable today, whether or not we worship on Sat. or Sun., whether or not we're pre trib, mid-trib, or post trib, whether or not God created the universe in 6 literal days or did it through evolution over millions of years, etc.
We're saved when we put our trust in the finished work of Jesus on the cross. That includes repenting of sin and beginning to live a repentant life availing ourselves of continual cleansing by His blood through confession and receiving forgiveness (1st John 1:5-2:2). We are born again (John 1:10-13) and we rest in the assurance of what He has done and is doing in our lives (1st John 5:10-13). With salvation comes spiritual (maybe not logical) understanding of the triune nature of God, a desire to obey the great commandments and see the great commission fulfilled. We will experience growth as we stay attached to the Vine, and fruit-the Holy Spirit working in and through us. And ultimately, as you said in your last email, we nurture a relationship based on trust of an utterly trustworthy God.

What a wonderful letter from a very wise man!   You are very blessed!

[jabcat]

These are very neat posts, getting others' experiences.  I've had many that I've shared already, so I'll be brief with a few..1)  when I shared my belief in UR with my son, he said recently sitting in "church" listening to the sermon, had the thought "there's got to be more than this"  .  2)  wife (lifelong, dyed in the wool Baptist) listened for a year and a half, then just 2 weeks ago shared with her mother (dyed in the wool Baptist) many wonderful thoughts I didn't even realize she was having...for one, she told her "what got me thinking about this was the love of God...would He do that (ET) to His children?". 

I've also had rejection...normal..."don't be surprised when they hate you...they hated Me first", quote Jesus.

I really like your OP Seeker411...keep believing, have love and compassion, try to focus on the fact that God's the One that reveals and veils...as rosered said in another post, "we plant the seeds".

God's blessing, James.

[bobf]

But if enough people say something for enough centuries, isn't it automatically true?

I dunno.... let's take a vote.   

[WhiteWings]

But if enough people say something for enough centuries, isn't it automatically true?

For most people the answer is yes Martin.
If church thaught for centuries that Jesus was wearing a Rolex then people believe that. When you tell them there weren't watches at that time or it isn't in the Bible they run away or tell you you aren't skilled enough to debunk the pastor that preached it last sunday.

"All those millions of believers can't be wrong so I believe the same."

[LaurieJo]

"In answer to your last email as well as this one:
Belief in universal salvation will not condemn anyone (oxymoron?)

LOL!!!!
Thanks for sharing, Brian....your cousin is a wonderfully wise pastor.

[Molly]

But if enough people say something for enough centuries, isn't it automatically true?

For most people the answer is yes Martin.
If church thaught for centuries that Jesus was wearing a Rolex then people believe that. When you tell them there weren't watches at that time or it isn't in the Bible they run away or tell you you aren't skilled enough to debunk the pastor that preached it last sunday.

"All those millions of believers can't be wrong so I believe the same."

Sad, isn't it?  Maybe I'll write a book titled, Jesus wore a Rolex.

My first sentence could be, No he didn't, you silly people!  Do you believe everything you read and hear?!  Why don't you find out for yourselves??

[martincisneros]

Maybe I'll write a book titled, Jesus wore a Rolex.

No, He never wore a Rolex, but He did wear high end Brioni.

[valueallhumanlife2008]

well if truly believing in an eternal hell is necessary for being a Christian......then it's impossible for me to be a Christian.

But I know that I have the Lord in my life, I don't think our differences over this issue is something Christians should divide over.

[WhiteWings]

well if truly believing in an eternal hell is necessary for being a Christian......then it's impossible for me to be a Christian.

It sound you aren't a Christian.
You feel to see the unending love from God towards His creation in the torture chambers of hell.
That means you are missing the love to spend ETernity at his side!
 

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Whitewings I'm not sure you understood my post.  It's like this:

For me, the doctrine of an eternal hell is so horrible that my mind cannot handle such a doctrine.  I truly believe that it is not possible for me to accept such a thing.  So therefore when an ET believing christian says that you must believe in an eternal hell to be a christian, then that makes it impossible for me to be a christian.

[WhiteWings]

I did understand you.
My post was just sarcasm.

[Nathan]

Yeah, that's "another" thing about being UR . . .we tend to get a little saurcastic on occasion   I think I do it mostly because I laugh at myself a lot . . .make dumb decisions . . .pay the consequences and in return . .you get to laugh at it in the end.  I laugh A LOT!!

Recently, I made one of these laughable decisions and got my 4-wheel Explorer stuck at the bottom of a steep canyon with an old log-lane leading out . . .but it had rained for 3 days previous . . and even though the day I hunted in there it hadn't rained for 24 hours . . . I had no business doing what I did and it cost me . . . I broke both my mirrors off and was without a vehicle for 3 days while I had to wait for the wind to dry out the lane . . .there's more, but beings this is a public domain, it may gross some out so I'll refrain from it.

Point being, I get a little sarcastic because I was once in the same place as others in ET and I look at it now and just laugh at myself for swallowing the stuff without being open enough to consider it could be a misconception.  It really is just as what was stated above, so many others believe it to be the only truth . . .how could I possibly think that "I" would know more than these great men of God???

Sometimes, it's an advantage to have experienced Egypt for yourself rather than try to assume what the experience would be like.  And because it was truly experienced, you can be more effective at helping others who are still there.

On the other hand . . . it could also help you let go of the argument much sooner as well.  I have a teen-aged daughter who has the SAME temperment as I had when I was her age.  I've often asked myself . .when I was at that stage, was there ANYTHING my parents could have done differently that would have let me escape from myself.  Because if there was, I would be more than willing to do with same with my daughter.  I've only been able to come up with one answer thus far in my journey of searching . . .no.  The things learned are not external, they are internal.  The only way to learn them is to experience the external trials.  Ya take the cake out of the oven before it's done, you end up with a half-baked kid . . I mean cake.

For many in ET, it's the same way.  Only God can truly bring them out.  We all need to be at our posts with our life preservers at the ready, but only God can bring the to the point to where they're willing to admit they could possibly be on the verge of drowning.